Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2: The Weapon Classes. I wanted to let that roll for
Speaker 2: a little bit, but I guess we'd better get on
Speaker 2: and do our job. Welcome, Welcome back to the Weekend
Speaker 2: Collective on tim beverage and by the way, a fascinating
Speaker 2: chat in the previous hour for the Health hab with
Speaker 2: Dr Mark Williams Neuroscience about just the effect of devices
Speaker 2: on our on our health and actually the scariest thing
Speaker 2: was basically the fact that we're just becoming dumber because
Speaker 2: the devices and IQ rates of declining. So if you
Speaker 2: wanted a reason to get off your phone, there's a
Speaker 2: good one. Anyway, if you want to check out anto
Speaker 2: the previous hours and me to chat with Peter Dunn
Speaker 2: about the Luxeen and Winston having a crack at luxon
Speaker 2: for talking to world leaders and getting ahead of it.
Speaker 2: Should have talked to Winston first. And then we had
Speaker 2: a chat with David Carter, former Speaker of the House
Speaker 2: and Minister of Local Government about just celebrities and voting
Speaker 2: for them just because we recognize the name for our mayors.
Speaker 2: You can go and check out our podcast look for
Speaker 2: the Weekend Collective on the News talks he Be website.
Speaker 2: We'll go to iHeartRadio. But right now it's time for
Speaker 2: another hour, which'll be can checking out in the podcast
Speaker 2: if you're not listening to it live. It is smart money.
Speaker 2: My guest is he's an employment relation expert. He doesn't
Speaker 2: really need much of an introduction to this audience. I
Speaker 2: think if you've been listening to The Weekend Collective for
Speaker 2: a while, you'll be familiar with the tone, the dulcet
Speaker 2: tones of Max Whitehead go a Max, how you going?
Speaker 3: Hey, you've had an exciting build up to the show,
Speaker 3: because really, some really good stuff's been happening. By the sound,
Speaker 3: I wish I was there. I mean, because that your
Speaker 3: last segment that adolescens. I just watched that segment of
Speaker 3: Man it touched me.
Speaker 2: It really is that that. That's a Netflix thing.
Speaker 3: I've got children. You should see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're going to.
Speaker 3: Put it into schools.
Speaker 2: It's going to be Yeah, apparently it's quite heavy going too,
Speaker 2: I think, isn't it? But yeah, I'll have to check
Speaker 2: it out. I'm busy watching something light and fluffy mine.
Speaker 2: You're also I'm enjoying the f one at the moment
Speaker 2: you're following the F one and all the fortunes of
Speaker 2: Liam Lawson and all that.
Speaker 3: Oh well, I just followed him, of course. And then
Speaker 3: then I think the TA B said that they put
Speaker 3: him something special on for him and if you bet
Speaker 3: for him, and then I realized that the odds can't
Speaker 3: be good for him. No, I didn't expect him to win.
Speaker 3: But you know, a bit sad he got pushed aside,
Speaker 3: but that's life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, now we want your calls on eight hundred
Speaker 2: eighty ten eight. And look, if there's any issue that
Speaker 2: you're concerned about with your either as an employer or
Speaker 2: as an employee, give us a call. And I'm sure
Speaker 2: maxud I love to give you the benefit of his
Speaker 2: wisdom and experience on eight hundred eighty text nine two
Speaker 2: ninety two. But we always like to kick things off
Speaker 2: with a couple of angles of conversation for you to
Speaker 2: digest and participate on. And the first one is is
Speaker 2: there a stigma around age getting old? And should we
Speaker 2: be valuing age a little more than sort of looking
Speaker 2: at people and thinking, oh, they're getting towards sixty five
Speaker 2: and start to write people off and case and point,
Speaker 2: and the reason for this discussion is Winston Peters. Much
Speaker 2: as you know, we might have heard some criticisms of
Speaker 2: them before by Peter Dunn about his motives for having
Speaker 2: a crack at Luxon and all that. And look, Winston Winston,
Speaker 2: the wily old politician, the co Martyr of New Zealand Parliament.
Speaker 2: He's he's been doing it for a long time. He's
Speaker 2: eighty years old now. And yet who would question whether
Speaker 2: Winston is not up to the job, Because clearly Winston
Speaker 2: is up to the job. He's received huge plaudits for
Speaker 2: the job that he does as Foreign Affairs Minister. I
Speaker 2: would say that the average punter who follows politics with
Speaker 2: more than a passing interest would look at Winston and think,
Speaker 2: you know what, regardless of my opinion of him or
Speaker 2: whether I vote for him as a foreign minister, at
Speaker 2: the age of eighty, the guy is he's rocking and rolling.
Speaker 2: So is that an example of why we should not
Speaker 2: write off older people and that age is just a number.
Speaker 3: Well, you got to think about it. It's a great
Speaker 3: discussion because we got Winston, who is wiley. I think
Speaker 3: he really is. But by goodness, I've been around a
Speaker 3: long time, so I remember the days when he skinned
Speaker 3: his knees and he was an embarrassment and I remember
Speaker 3: the time when he got throwing out of the National
Speaker 3: Party for that particular reason. And he's made some silly
Speaker 3: statements in the early days. But now he can read
Speaker 3: politics better than anybody and he's proven that again and again.
Speaker 2: There's also a lesson there and just persistence, isn't it,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean he's plead Knox member. He got
Speaker 2: I mean he got ended up out of parliament after
Speaker 2: you know, when people decided that I had enough in
Speaker 2: New Zealand first and he was out and then he's back.
Speaker 3: Jim Boljas kicked him out and he's held a grudge
Speaker 3: against the National Party for years, but he's back with
Speaker 3: him now. But you know, the other thing is the
Speaker 3: President of the United States is about the same age, yes.
Speaker 2: He is, well, actually in the former president of the
Speaker 2: United States is around the same age as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and look at the performance difference. It's completely
Speaker 3: you know, the previous president really struggled and his age
Speaker 3: really showed him that last year. So he's witty, he's smart,
Speaker 3: he's electric, but he's thinking he can actually beat the hecklers.
Speaker 3: He really does performing well and his brain is super
Speaker 3: sharp trumpy. Well, I don't know what goes on in
Speaker 3: his brain. I don't think anyone else does. But what
Speaker 3: we got is somebody courageous. But there's that reckless because
Speaker 3: he's getting old as well. But he's really really doing
Speaker 3: some changes to the world.
Speaker 2: Well, let's get onto the Can you you can't discriminate
Speaker 2: against people based on their gender? Generally, I don't think
Speaker 2: you can, And generally I wouldn't think you can discriminate
Speaker 2: against them on age. But can you discriminate against people
Speaker 2: on age?
Speaker 3: Well, the Human Rights ex specifies it. No, you cannot.
Speaker 3: So if employers have problems of this, So a person's
Speaker 3: becoming elderly, they're becoming slower, they be a bit more less,
Speaker 3: can't respond quick quick enough and even physically.
Speaker 2: That's a performance issue, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's how they've got to treat it. But
Speaker 3: not with age.
Speaker 2: Whereas if you turn up for a job and you
Speaker 2: happen to be, you know, in your seventies or something,
Speaker 2: and you demonstrate you can do the job, age shouldn't
Speaker 2: be a barrier to you.
Speaker 3: No, it should not, And but yet it is. I
Speaker 3: can say to you now because I'm getting into that
Speaker 3: older age group and never I just adjust my nappy.
Speaker 3: But just but what I was just about to say is,
Speaker 3: you know, it definitely is a barrier out there. It's subconscient,
Speaker 3: but right through New Zealand. You actually look at in
Speaker 3: your world. You know, radio stars and things in Australia
Speaker 3: they're much older. TV celebrities are the really good ones
Speaker 3: are much older. There's not many older ones here compared
Speaker 3: to what's happening in Australia. They're in New Zealand. We
Speaker 3: do judge people on age, and we shouldn't we should
Speaker 3: I mean, I.
Speaker 2: Guess there are certain industries where age is not such
Speaker 2: a barrier that you know, the older yet you deem
Speaker 2: to have a bit more life experience and dealing with things.
Speaker 2: Probably actually this this gig can talk back. If you're
Speaker 2: you know, if you're around fifty, you're a youngster.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well yes, well possibly, but I mean you've got
Speaker 3: to have some intelligence for your sort of work as well,
Speaker 3: and you've got to be quick witted, and you've got
Speaker 3: to be able to handle, you know, situations that can
Speaker 3: be a bit risky and do it lightning fast. What
Speaker 3: if I mean what are diplomacy.
Speaker 2: What can are there ways that older people who still
Speaker 2: want to continue working, Because the other reason we're talking
Speaker 2: about this, they are an increasingly large number of people
Speaker 2: who working beyond the age of sixty five. And I
Speaker 2: think I saw some frightening status to what younger people
Speaker 2: thought how long they were going to work for and
Speaker 2: there was quite a large number. I need to find
Speaker 2: that stat actually about how many people thought they would
Speaker 2: be stopping at sixty five, and it was a minority,
Speaker 2: I think, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. And of course nowadays people are wanting
Speaker 3: to come back. If anything, the older people are the
Speaker 3: pension doesn't quite give you that luxurious, nice living standard
Speaker 3: as you had before. Now there's a couple of things
Speaker 3: that older people should do if they want to get
Speaker 3: back in the workforce, and that is one. There's a
Speaker 3: perception out there that you're going to want more money.
Speaker 3: I actually talked to an HR person today just because
Speaker 3: I knew this was coming up, and she said that
Speaker 3: we actually have a feeling that people are going to
Speaker 3: of the older generation will be expecting high money. That's
Speaker 3: one that surprises me.
Speaker 2: I would have thought, because.
Speaker 3: You've been around a long time, and you do have
Speaker 3: the experience. You've been in the industry for years and
Speaker 3: years and years, and you've had increments every year to
Speaker 3: take you up. And of course you will be expensive.
Speaker 3: So older people, you've got to say that I'm at
Speaker 3: reasonable cost. My expectations aren't beyond what's reasonable. The other
Speaker 3: thing is technology, because that's a barrier old The people
Speaker 3: that are making decisions expect you because you're older, you're
Speaker 3: not savvy with tech. You need to get up there.
Speaker 3: You need to keep right up to what's going on,
Speaker 3: and particularly with AI right now, because that's going to
Speaker 3: change the world. Now. If you're right up to date
Speaker 3: and even ahead of some of the younger people, you're
Speaker 3: going to be a head for that job. Interview as well,
Speaker 3: I would say, because the employer will be looking at it.
Speaker 3: So the way to actually sell it, if I was
Speaker 3: you would say, hey, I'm very much aware of it.
Speaker 3: I may be using AI myself, however I do it
Speaker 3: cautiously because I don't know where it's going to go.
Speaker 2: Actually, are people allowed to know how old you are
Speaker 2: for a job. No, unless it's something where there's a
Speaker 2: prescribed by law thing like I don't think there's an age,
Speaker 2: which you can be a commercial pilot or something.
Speaker 3: Well, what we advise, we've have for years and years
Speaker 3: and years of employers, and I work for the EMA
Speaker 3: Employees Association, do not ever ask their age because then
Speaker 3: you're up for an allegation of discrimination.
Speaker 2: So you actually cannot even ask someone. Look, you don't
Speaker 2: have to tell me. Can you say, Look, you don't
Speaker 2: have to tell me, but how old are you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Can you say what years were you?
Speaker 3: It's not advisable.
Speaker 2: Can you ask them what year did you go to
Speaker 2: that school?
Speaker 3: You could ask them that, but I mean again, they
Speaker 3: could use that and say he knew that I was
Speaker 3: touching on fifty nine and mine's going to get a
Speaker 3: pension next year or whatever, and then discriminated against me.
Speaker 3: I mean, you just don't want to get into legal
Speaker 3: action against you because you're going to turn that that
Speaker 3: person down. They will then claim what was the reason, Oh,
Speaker 3: it's because of my age. I'll sue the buggers.
Speaker 2: God, we'd love your calls on this. Eight hundred and
Speaker 2: eighty ten. Aady, are you someone who's older who's looking
Speaker 2: at keeping working or getting a job, and how do
Speaker 2: you handle the question of age or do you believe
Speaker 2: that we are, that we stigmatize and look at older
Speaker 2: people in a negative way, when in fact they might
Speaker 2: have a lot to offer. Case in point, as I say,
Speaker 2: just because he's out his eightieth birthday, Winston Peters. To
Speaker 2: be honest, if you didn't have a Minister of Foreign
Speaker 2: Affairs and you could just hire anyone and Winston was available,
Speaker 2: he'd be like, let's have a chat with Whney, wouldn't
Speaker 2: you You'd hire them, good high Whinny, wouldn't you.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'd go to him for advice. Hey, what's
Speaker 3: going to happen in the future. He seems to better
Speaker 3: predict it rather well because he's how often is here
Speaker 3: the balance of power? The whole population don't get this privilege.
Speaker 3: He's at it so many times. He's actually told us
Speaker 3: who we're going to have in parliament, told us what anyway?
Speaker 3: Enough of Winston.
Speaker 2: Hey, let's take some calls. Where are we up to?
Speaker 3: Let's go to Tom, Hey, Tom Max waited here, it's.
Speaker 4: Tom here. I've got a performance issue, which you just
Speaker 4: mentioned before at my work. I just want to ask
Speaker 4: your opinion about my situation, if that's okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. Have you been accused of poor performance.
Speaker 4: Yes, and so I don't want to need to be
Speaker 4: careful about not reguining my who I work for. But
Speaker 4: so I work for a large government department, and have.
Speaker 3: They given you a performance improvement plan?
Speaker 4: They're about two yes?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: So well, firstly, so the work I do is office based,
Speaker 4: and we receive applications from members of the public which
Speaker 4: we need to process and we need to evaluate the applicants,
Speaker 4: how the applicants meets various government policies and determine various
Speaker 4: risk factors. Can get very complicated, and so I've been
Speaker 4: told that I'm about ten or twenty below the weekly output.
Speaker 3: So Tom, the big key here for you is that
Speaker 3: you are entitled to a lot of information which I
Speaker 3: guarantee you haven't had. You might surprise me government departments
Speaker 3: of HR departments that can spend all day preparing this stuff.
Speaker 3: But anyway, what you can what you should be asking
Speaker 3: for is what exactly have I done that I've let
Speaker 3: you down that you think I'm not performing?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: I want you to name the dates, the time, the
Speaker 3: people involved, the conversations that actually give you that right
Speaker 3: that evidence. Can you give me five examples please, and
Speaker 3: then specify you want facts, not just you want you
Speaker 3: want facts, not just opinions.
Speaker 2: So sorry, what are the rest of the what's the
Speaker 2: rest of the story. What's where you're at with at
Speaker 2: the moment?
Speaker 4: Okay, So I I've had a few meets my manager,
Speaker 4: and I mean so our workers can be get quite
Speaker 4: assessed as well, and so my my quity is very
Speaker 4: good to excellent for last few months. There's no problem
Speaker 4: my quarity. And I sit to my manager just last week,
Speaker 4: I said, are there any other issues with my employment?
Speaker 4: Which is an issue? There's no, not at all. Just
Speaker 4: your output is below our expectations. So my question is
Speaker 4: there's that enough for them to put me on a
Speaker 4: performance plan? And so they he's first giving me six
Speaker 4: weeks ago on what he calls informal performance plan. But boy,
Speaker 4: is like five pages of documents which I need to sign,
Speaker 4: and there's expectations per week for every six weeks. And
Speaker 4: if I don't meet the expectations and that six weeks,
Speaker 4: then I go on a formal performance plan. And I
Speaker 4: was told that if I don't meet expectations after three
Speaker 4: months on the formal performance plan, then I could be
Speaker 4: down the road. I'll be down the road.
Speaker 2: Tom can I just ask you before we get into
Speaker 2: this further, do you know how were you set in
Speaker 2: terms of your output with other other people?
Speaker 6: And asked that?
Speaker 4: So where I worked, there is I mean, I mean nationwide,
Speaker 4: there are thousands of employees, and where I work, there's
Speaker 4: probably I'm not sure exactly about probably four hundred plus
Speaker 4: employees where I work. I mean, we all do different
Speaker 4: types of work, that's all kind of similar. And I'm
Speaker 4: absolutely certain I'm not the only person who's not meeting
Speaker 4: their target requirements. And I have asked that of them
Speaker 4: and they say, no, we can't talk to other people
Speaker 4: wause it's private information.
Speaker 2: Oh Okay, there's a lot to dig into here, isn't there?
Speaker 2: Max you get into it.
Speaker 3: Okay, well I go back back by the time I
Speaker 3: go right back to where I started. What I advise
Speaker 3: you to do is ask some questions, get some facts.
Speaker 3: You have been accused of something, you should ask them
Speaker 3: and put this in writing for me or for anybody
Speaker 3: might want to represent you that you've asked them to
Speaker 3: provide the facts to support their allegation of poor performance.
Speaker 3: And look, you've just made a very good point there.
Speaker 3: You know, where do you stand compared to your peers.
Speaker 3: I mean that's a question you can ask, is anyone
Speaker 3: else performing at this level? I mean those sort of
Speaker 3: questions you've got to write to put forward. Sorry, Tom,
Speaker 3: you spoke, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So who's the reply to that? Was that more than
Speaker 4: half of two teams who do the same work as
Speaker 4: I do, more than half of the staff who do
Speaker 4: the same week as I are meeting expectations. So I
Speaker 4: don't know what that means. More than half is that
Speaker 4: there's tety percent who aren't.
Speaker 3: So in writing put it in right? So I asked
Speaker 3: the boss, can you please give me some responses in writing?
Speaker 3: Because I'm getting advice on this and my advisor needs
Speaker 3: to see what you've got to help how you respond
Speaker 3: to these questions? Ah?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: So what I do is very much computer based, so
Speaker 4: they've got time and you know, all these apicases we get,
Speaker 4: it's all done in the computer, so that he has
Speaker 4: got statistics to show that on a week, on a monthly, weekly,
Speaker 4: a monthly basis, my output is so much and so
Speaker 4: much and I'm not meeting the expectations of Has he
Speaker 4: given this to you?
Speaker 5: Tom?
Speaker 2: Can? I can? I ask Tom?
Speaker 5: He is?
Speaker 4: He not exactly? But he has got the end he
Speaker 4: would give it to me. I know that you do.
Speaker 2: You get a sense. I've just a couple of questions,
Speaker 2: a bit of guess where here. But firstly I've got
Speaker 2: a text asking have is this a new manager.
Speaker 4: Last six months? But I think I think he might
Speaker 4: be getting directions from higher up. I've been I've been
Speaker 4: at this organization for like just over twenty years now
Speaker 4: and two years from the retirement or two years from
Speaker 4: sixty five, and I've got a good history and good
Speaker 4: record with them. My output very goes up and down,
Speaker 4: but I've got a very good attendance. I turned to
Speaker 4: work every day I've had them.
Speaker 3: I'm just interrupted you because you know we should move on.
Speaker 3: But I was just going to say to you that
Speaker 3: really we've got. What you've got to do is we're
Speaker 3: so careful, so careful that you don't sign off any
Speaker 3: of those new rules he's putting in front of you.
Speaker 3: He'll be even giving you some KPIs key performance issues,
Speaker 3: standards to indicators that you're going to have to get
Speaker 3: to and you might use the words back, are you
Speaker 3: setting me up to fail? And because that's possibly what
Speaker 3: he's trying to do, and say I'm reluctant to sign
Speaker 3: this off until I'm satisfied that it's fear and reasonable person.
Speaker 4: My main question is, if I don't meet the I
Speaker 4: don't meet the expectations after the formal performance plan and
Speaker 4: review after several months, is that enough to dismiss someone?
Speaker 3: Yes, it is if you fail again right through. But
Speaker 3: they if you challenge them, if you came to someone
Speaker 3: like me and we challenge them, They've got to show
Speaker 3: there was enough justification for them to dismiss you. And
Speaker 3: that's what I'm asking you to do now, is to
Speaker 3: ask them for that information now, to justify what their
Speaker 3: actions are and why they're coming at you, because I
Speaker 3: can sense it from you, Tom, You've bewildered at the moment.
Speaker 2: Can I also ask Tom, do you have a sense
Speaker 2: that they are doing in these performance reviews as a
Speaker 2: way of reducing numbers within your workplace, and so they've
Speaker 2: simply changed the goalposts so they can find a bunch
Speaker 2: of people who don't quite meet what their targets are.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's a speak of one as a big organization. So
Speaker 4: we haven't had any you know, in the last year
Speaker 4: with government cutbacks. We haven't had significant cutbacks.
Speaker 3: I really don't know, so I'll help you there. Because
Speaker 3: normally it's easier to make somebody redundant than it is
Speaker 3: to actually get them for flight issues. So it's quicker.
Speaker 3: It's a quicker way of doing it.
Speaker 2: Cheaper to get them for performance issue though, isn't it possibly?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Because I mean twenty years of service where Tom is,
Speaker 3: he's going to be a costly person to get out
Speaker 3: the door.
Speaker 4: So first long told any redundancy or know that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, hey, looks stay on the line. We'll move
Speaker 2: on Tom. But stay listening because I just want to
Speaker 2: ask Max, So what a Tom's just remind us. I'm
Speaker 2: sure there are plenty of people who will have these issues.
Speaker 2: If you suspect you're being managed out of your job.
Speaker 2: What are his first actions?
Speaker 6: Now?
Speaker 3: First thing he should do is go back and ask
Speaker 3: for facts and ask for it in writing because he
Speaker 3: needs to get advice, and before he signs off, and
Speaker 3: then when he's asked again sign the document, he should
Speaker 3: since say I don't like I don't I don't feel
Speaker 3: comfortable signing this because you're setting me up to fail.
Speaker 3: If he's got a good reason and six months in
Speaker 3: the job, he's.
Speaker 2: Been twenty years there. See. That seems to me that
Speaker 2: if someone can be successful and be in a position
Speaker 2: for twenty years to suddenly be managed out of a job.
Speaker 2: Because the thing that raises alarm for me is are
Speaker 2: they shifting the goalposts from the gig that you've been
Speaker 2: doing consistently and acceptably for twenty years? So how could
Speaker 2: it have changed? He would, he'd be there must be
Speaker 2: a way of raising that. It's like, hang on a minute,
Speaker 2: twenty years. I've been doing fine. This has never been
Speaker 2: raised with him before. I haven't changed my output. It's
Speaker 2: as it has been for the last twenty years. You're
Speaker 2: shifting the goal pace to.
Speaker 3: Get rim what's happened? And he's already told us so.
Speaker 3: A couple of levels up, there's been a new manager coming.
Speaker 3: The new manager and that's what already A Texas is
Speaker 3: mentioned to you. The new managers come in. I'm going
Speaker 3: to make a name for myself here. I'll get rid
Speaker 3: of the dead wood.
Speaker 2: Tom's they But if you've been successful in a job
Speaker 2: for twenty years, they can't suddenly go Oh, by the
Speaker 2: way we've set these are your targets. Now, if you
Speaker 2: don't meet them, we're going to performance manage you out.
Speaker 2: That doesn't feel like that's.
Speaker 3: Now they want time to sign it. You've got my boat,
Speaker 3: You've got my advice on both days. First, get the
Speaker 3: facts and the second mine is do not sign it
Speaker 3: until you're comfortable that you can achieve those things.
Speaker 7: Yep.
Speaker 2: Okay, So hopefully that's good advice for your tom and
Speaker 2: you know, otherwise, get some advice. I'm sure people want
Speaker 2: to get it.
Speaker 3: And Tim, I'm going to tell you that there's going
Speaker 3: to be callers now, because this happens every day in
Speaker 3: my world. I'll get callers from everybody and the new
Speaker 3: managers come in and he wants to show the boss
Speaker 3: how wonderful he is cleaning out the dude would and
Speaker 3: get the performance back up.
Speaker 2: Gosh, that sounds like a challenging scenario, doesn't it. Right, Hey, look,
Speaker 2: we'll be back in just a moment. It's twenty eight
Speaker 2: and a half past five.
Speaker 8: Sitting.
Speaker 2: Living's welcome back to the week and collective. This is
Speaker 2: smart money. My guess is Max Whitehead, as we all know,
Speaker 2: an employment relations expert talking well, we've been talking about
Speaker 2: age as well, but the last conversation has thrown up
Speaker 2: the question around how do you how can you avoid
Speaker 2: being performanced managed out of a job. But any questions
Speaker 2: you've got around your employment relationship, whether it be as
Speaker 2: a boss or an employee, you give us a call,
Speaker 2: Helen Hello.
Speaker 8: Oh hello, Kevin Max. Now this thing about our discrimination
Speaker 8: on age Tony Sorry. Peter Bouchi is the chief on vidsman.
Speaker 8: He has been forced out of his job. His frames
Speaker 8: is as good as it ever was, simply because he
Speaker 8: turned twenty egoes, he's turned seventy two. And when they
Speaker 8: did that revise the legislation to bring that in, they
Speaker 8: didn't change that, so that the Ombuton's office, you know,
Speaker 8: he had to go by because he was seventy two
Speaker 8: and no other reason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a separate that's a separate act of parliament.
Speaker 2: I guess that's the way it is.
Speaker 3: Tim was just telling me that during the break, because
Speaker 3: I mean, there is a human rights tech which affects
Speaker 3: all of us ordinary people, but that person is deemed
Speaker 3: to be somebody pretty special, and that's so they passed
Speaker 3: an act of parliament. He was he's gone, isn't he?
Speaker 8: I think? So he's yeah, sharp as attack. You know,
Speaker 8: I doesn't want to go and doing a great job.
Speaker 3: We get judges like that and they get right up
Speaker 3: there in terms of age, but you know that they
Speaker 3: can't stay too long either because of the he gets
Speaker 3: up to that.
Speaker 2: I actually think there is another reason for that as well, though, Helen,
Speaker 2: is that the Ombudsman is someone who reviews actions of
Speaker 2: the government and the public service. So he has actually
Speaker 2: a very powerful role. And so if he was if
Speaker 2: he was getting older and hanging on to the job
Speaker 2: even though maybe he wasn't as good as it, it's
Speaker 2: very difficult for the government to say it's time for
Speaker 2: you to go when because it looks it could look
Speaker 2: bad that they're doing it because they don't like the
Speaker 2: decisions he's arriving at. So the Act the Act probably
Speaker 2: is necessary from the point of view of like it
Speaker 2: just removes that uncomfortable issue of having to say to
Speaker 2: the ombudsmen, will you're done, sunshine?
Speaker 8: I can see that, I could see that, but.
Speaker 3: Just you know, a lot of those senior roles have
Speaker 3: fixed term just specifically for that, but they don't mention
Speaker 3: age quite often, but this one they do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So actually it's a strange one because you think
Speaker 2: they can amount that just by simply saying you've got
Speaker 2: a five year term and maybe have something in there
Speaker 2: that if somehow we've got questions around your cognitive ability,
Speaker 2: you have to do a pass an assessment. Oh it
Speaker 2: all gets complicated, doesn't max.
Speaker 3: Well, it does. There's so much it does. And we
Speaker 3: see these legislations that are conflicting with each other, and
Speaker 3: the judge, particularly in the High Court and some of
Speaker 3: those other ones have to make a decision which which
Speaker 3: legislation will take prison in here, and they do it
Speaker 3: quite frequently.
Speaker 2: Here's one I've gotten. I've been in a telco forty
Speaker 2: nine years, very experienced up to date forced us into
Speaker 2: owner operator. They've just offered me a contract. W's reduced
Speaker 2: my ind come by forty percent from a year ago.
Speaker 2: I barely survive now, so I'll be below minimum wage.
Speaker 2: No wonder they have problems in the North Island to
Speaker 2: the with internet outages.
Speaker 3: Bloody hell is this chorus? I think now? It doesn't
Speaker 3: say they went and gave them made them contractors, And
Speaker 3: my goodness, that's that's really s And I would say
Speaker 3: that if your skills, surely you can get another job
Speaker 3: somewhere else. Why put up with a minimum wage or
Speaker 3: less than even.
Speaker 2: Well's I guess as he said, because if you're.
Speaker 3: A contract well that's lawful. By the way, if you're
Speaker 3: a contractor, you can be paid less than a minimum wage.
Speaker 2: That does seem pretty rapid, doesn't it. I don't know
Speaker 2: beyond that. Well, if he could, if you've been an employee,
Speaker 2: how do they force you to become a contractor once
Speaker 2: you've been an employee.
Speaker 3: It's why you can be very cautious when you actually
Speaker 3: do that. Flick over and agree with the boss, but
Speaker 3: you can still challenge it and say, well, in reality,
Speaker 3: I'm an employee. Because all these there's a heap of tests.
Speaker 3: It's complicated, but it can get there.
Speaker 2: Another one says. A text says experience and capability to
Speaker 2: do jobs should be respecting the work, et cetera. For
Speaker 2: the older age group, older people have come through the
Speaker 2: invention and development over our time and employment. I find
Speaker 2: young people now want others to do to work for them,
Speaker 2: and I think technology and sorry and think technology will
Speaker 2: do and everything doesn't work out that way. Get the job,
Speaker 2: do the work, don't leave the computer us.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the reasons we're well and very low
Speaker 3: productivity in New Zealand is the fact that we let
Speaker 3: our technology is not up there because ninety seven percent
Speaker 3: of all businesses in New Zealand, not all the enterprises
Speaker 3: are less than twenty people in there, so we're small
Speaker 3: businesses and we haven't got that AI will the robotics particularly,
Speaker 3: and these young people expect robotics to do everything. Unfortunately
Speaker 3: a lot of businesses just can't afford that, and that's
Speaker 3: why we're lagging behind the competitors around the globe.
Speaker 2: Another text here from Patricia high Tim and Max. Great
Speaker 2: call from Tom. My opinion is new manager being backed
Speaker 2: by senior management. Therefore new manager has the confidence to
Speaker 2: deal with Tom full stop. Stand your ground, Tom, listen
Speaker 2: to Max. So much for the no surprises at performance
Speaker 2: review time. This carry on is rife and government departments
Speaker 2: cheers Patricia.
Speaker 3: Oh go Patricia. I liked her her texts and she's
Speaker 3: dead right. We're banks to all that. Yeah, I think
Speaker 3: you need to challenge it, Tom and ask for more facts.
Speaker 2: Kearencies. What's the difference between them asking your age and
Speaker 2: asking what's wrong with you? If you have a day
Speaker 2: off sick? Both a private.
Speaker 3: You can answer this, you did before. Actually, well, they're
Speaker 3: two different things. Yeah, I mean your age and your
Speaker 3: ability to perform or having even sick. If you're not
Speaker 3: reliably attending work, that's another matter. But you don't.
Speaker 2: I think she's saying, are they allowed to ask you
Speaker 2: what's wrong with you if you have day off sick?
Speaker 2: Actually I don't think you have to tell them what's
Speaker 2: wrong with you. You just have to say I'm unwell. And
Speaker 2: if you want, I'm not going to tell you what
Speaker 2: it is, I'll give you a medical stuff exactly. But
Speaker 2: you should have a trusting relationship where you go on.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, and you did right and do have
Speaker 3: a trusting relationship. But employers have only thing they are
Speaker 3: entitled to know is will you be reliably able to
Speaker 3: tend work from hereafter? And what was the reason you're off?
Speaker 3: And if your doctor's given you a certificate, the employe's
Speaker 3: got no he has to accept it or she has
Speaker 3: to accept what is.
Speaker 2: The pragmatic way of getting a certificate from a doctor,
Speaker 2: Because you know, going to the doctor these days, that's
Speaker 2: not cheap.
Speaker 3: They've got a pad right beside him because they write
Speaker 3: so many It's just what was wrong. Three weeks ago,
Speaker 3: I had an illness. The boss wants me to have
Speaker 3: a certificate for that. Okay, right, what day was that?
Speaker 2: So you just give him a call. You shouldn't have
Speaker 2: to necessary avenue.
Speaker 3: But they have to go. And the doctor makes a
Speaker 3: bit of money out of that. But then he writes
Speaker 3: this to certificate and rips it off the pad and
Speaker 3: gives it to the person. That's forty bucks or sixty
Speaker 3: bucks or whatever it is for a doctor's appointment. Now, yeah, no,
Speaker 3: that's been going on for a long time, and there's
Speaker 3: a lot of people, like employers associations are very unhappy
Speaker 3: with the recklessness that the medical certificates are released by retrospectively.
Speaker 3: That didn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we want your cause as well. Any questions you've
Speaker 2: got for Max Max White, he is an employment relations expert.
Speaker 2: If you want to get in touch with them, he's
Speaker 2: got one of those fun numbers. It's quite easy to remember.
Speaker 2: But for the time being, I cannot think what it
Speaker 2: is is If people want to get in touch with
Speaker 2: the Max.
Speaker 3: Two one twenty four to seven, ninety three ninety three,
Speaker 3: what did.
Speaker 8: You go for?
Speaker 2: The ninety three ninety three is of course, it's like inflation.
Speaker 2: On our ninety two.
Speaker 3: When I got to the number, I didn't even I
Speaker 3: thought one shit number because there was no two numbers
Speaker 3: in there that were the same. So I thought, ah,
Speaker 3: this is rubbish. And the girl that was working for me,
Speaker 3: she said, have another look at it. It was twenty
Speaker 3: four to seven ninety three ninety three. Well, and there
Speaker 3: was a pizza around at the time with ninety three
Speaker 3: ninety three at the end of it.
Speaker 2: Do you ever get called for no pizza? You know,
Speaker 2: hold them, hold the hold the mushrooms. Anyway, Hey, look,
Speaker 2: we'd love your cause on eight hundred eighty ten eighty.
Speaker 2: Any questions you've got for Max. We've got a few
Speaker 2: things we can dig into here between the two of us,
Speaker 2: but if you'd like to jump the queue and get
Speaker 2: them with your question, then give us a call. Eight
Speaker 2: hundred eighty ten eighty. It's twenty six news Talk, said,
Speaker 2: b Yes, welcome back, this is smart money. My guess
Speaker 2: is Max Whitehead is an employment relations expert and the
Speaker 2: numbers is eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Taking your cause.
Speaker 2: We started talking about whether you know age is a
Speaker 2: big deal these days, but we're also as the conversation.
Speaker 2: Evolve's been talking about being performance managed out of a job,
Speaker 2: or any of questions you might have around your employment situation,
Speaker 2: boss or otherwise.
Speaker 3: It's interesting subjects tonight. I'm really touching some buttons of
Speaker 3: me and you and I have been having a conversations
Speaker 3: during the breaks. You know, it's been amazing.
Speaker 2: Tom, your your turn? Sorry not Tom, Colin? What am
Speaker 2: I saying? Colin? Colin?
Speaker 6: Colin?
Speaker 3: Hello? Colin? Max here?
Speaker 7: Hello? Max? How are you very good? I have a question.
Speaker 7: If you've got twenty sick days, right, and was the
Speaker 7: school holidays coming up? Can you use three of those
Speaker 7: sick days to have off as you told that on holiday.
Speaker 3: No, No, you're going to use them for sick reasons.
Speaker 3: You're going to have a good reason, medical reasons to
Speaker 3: do it. And unfortunately the answer that is no. No, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, that's not the answer you wanted to have.
Speaker 2: If you were sick, that would be different. I don't
Speaker 2: know whether that means you cannot go for a walk
Speaker 2: in the park with them, but if you were sick,
Speaker 2: that's different.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But you couldn't just take three sick
Speaker 7: days and then go with your son to wherever you
Speaker 7: want to go.
Speaker 3: And I'm just wondering if Tim is actually implying maybe
Speaker 3: you should say you're sick.
Speaker 2: I know I'm not saying that.
Speaker 7: No, well, that's what it come across as.
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: Actually, that's an interesting question because I do know people
Speaker 2: who go, oh, I've got so many sick days owing
Speaker 2: to me. It's like, well, they're available to you, but
Speaker 2: they're not owed to you in the sense that you
Speaker 2: can just say I'm sick today unless you can get a.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Colin, you should say them up because you never
Speaker 3: know what's around the corner for you.
Speaker 7: Well, that's true because I worked for this company and
Speaker 7: when COVID struck, the government paid us eighty percent. Yeah,
Speaker 7: so we had enough, We had enough sick days that
Speaker 7: they the company paid us one hundred percent because we
Speaker 7: had so many sick days.
Speaker 3: Ah. Yeah, well that's interesting, and of course they do
Speaker 3: accumulate up to twenty days. So yeah, it will over
Speaker 3: years and years, you get to actually get quite a
Speaker 3: you raised up. So I'm sure Colin you've done that.
Speaker 2: Mindear Colin, would be very difficult for you to take
Speaker 2: us sicky now, because if your boss is listening and
Speaker 2: recognizes your voice would be like, how Colin, you've seen
Speaker 2: your sick days to the showte thanks.
Speaker 3: Going, he's a good sport.
Speaker 2: Kevin.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello Kevin Max.
Speaker 5: Here just a question. I'll be for a company for
Speaker 5: on my fourth year now every year where to a
Speaker 5: I'll call it a employment review. For now, it's called
Speaker 5: an employment review, which is due in October every year.
Speaker 5: I've got the ash for it intro of the other stuff,
Speaker 5: and we haven't got it on on on that particular time, Kevin.
Speaker 3: Is it on the employment agreement? Is it specified that
Speaker 3: every year they're going to do a review?
Speaker 5: Okay? Oh, extended a bit in my contract that says
Speaker 5: you and you're two for a employment review in October
Speaker 5: of your anniversary obviously, but it doesn't guarantee a pay right.
Speaker 3: No, no it doesn't. But the other thing is, Colin, Kevin,
Speaker 3: if they're not giving that to you, they are in
Speaker 3: breach of your contract. So you actually you can take
Speaker 3: a legal action against them if they I mean it's
Speaker 3: a petty reason, but I mean because they'll say I'll
Speaker 3: do it next month. But I mean, you might even
Speaker 3: say that you've been talking to this guy on the radio,
Speaker 3: Tim beverage, No, Max Whitehead, and he's advised me that
Speaker 3: you are in breach of contract by failing to give
Speaker 3: it to me. Can I have please do a review
Speaker 3: and give consideration to a wage rise. Probably doesn't help
Speaker 3: you get a wage rise. But if you actually tell
Speaker 3: him the bosses.
Speaker 5: Bridg actually interested in a pay rise, have you one's
Speaker 5: pay yet? But what my point is they're quite happy
Speaker 5: to throw your concrete at you a cure and brick
Speaker 5: of it. But their attitude is, well, you know, we
Speaker 5: don't care that we have done that. And what to
Speaker 5: me is they say it's not a pay review, but
Speaker 5: it is a pay review. So that's at the end
Speaker 5: on my concrete. At stage it doesn't guarantee a pay rise.
Speaker 5: Surely that means it is a pay review because it
Speaker 5: doesn't guarantee you pay right.
Speaker 3: Well, no, and what they're just saying they're going to
Speaker 3: look at your pay I mean there's probably a whole
Speaker 3: lot of factors come into it. And you know, employers
Speaker 3: don't always always give people a handout. In fact, some
Speaker 3: people should take it the reduction, I don't know. But anyway, look, Kevin,
Speaker 3: it's a good question. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 3: people affected by it because a lot of employers get
Speaker 3: caught up and it's such a busy time and you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know what is it coming up text time
Speaker 3: or whatever it might be. There's always a reason why
Speaker 3: they can't do it so well.
Speaker 5: In this case of a jew and October and we
Speaker 5: haven't got it in April.
Speaker 3: Well, I think make a fuss of it, and if
Speaker 3: you want to take it further, lodge it with the
Speaker 3: Employment Relations Authority you can for a breach of contract.
Speaker 5: And I say, I'm not really worry about it. I
Speaker 5: just wanted to see you if I had ground to
Speaker 5: stein on. They drove something at me, So so okay,
Speaker 5: if they threw something bash at me, could I use
Speaker 5: that again to them?
Speaker 3: Certainly you could. I mean if they are in breach now,
Speaker 3: and they are in breach later on and something comes
Speaker 3: at you, you can do it. Yeah. Hey, thanks for
Speaker 3: the call, Kevin.
Speaker 2: Yep, got on you, Kevin, Thank you for that, right,
Speaker 2: just looking for a couple of texts here. I don't
Speaker 2: know why more businesses and organizations aren't open to older
Speaker 2: people working part time or job share. I'm a fifty
Speaker 2: five year old woman having trouble funding work when I've
Speaker 2: never had any problems funding work in the past. The
Speaker 2: union for my profession isn't very helpful.
Speaker 3: I see EMA are actually promoting it. They're saying, folks,
Speaker 3: if you're you ought to be using older people more often,
Speaker 3: but actually do it part time and get them in
Speaker 3: for part of the hours. But use their experience and
Speaker 3: they're actually probably more stable. But and put them in
Speaker 3: a slot that you can fill. But actually you will
Speaker 3: find it quite helpful, and you can negotiate with them
Speaker 3: at a lower rate of pay than they were all
Speaker 3: used to when they were employed.
Speaker 2: Right, We'll be back in just a just a minute.
Speaker 2: This is News Talks a B. It's ten to six
Speaker 2: News Talks a B with Tim Beverage with Max Whitehead,
Speaker 2: employment relations consultant expert guru.
Speaker 3: Bring it on, bloke.
Speaker 2: There we go, John, Hello, Yeah.
Speaker 6: How you doing John?
Speaker 3: Max here?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've got a question for you, guys. I've been
Speaker 6: with this being employed with this company for the top
Speaker 6: months now. I haven't had my performance and everything. It's
Speaker 6: nothing wrong with my performance at Dentist and I have
Speaker 6: put in a lot of hours this company, including working
Speaker 6: outside of the company hours that there is the weekends
Speaker 6: or inn and public holidays with contractors and everything. So
Speaker 6: I've actually, you know, apply myself and that part is
Speaker 6: to spit my market.
Speaker 3: So what are they done to you?
Speaker 7: John?
Speaker 2: We'll have to keep it quick, joinks you've got about
Speaker 2: a minute and a half.
Speaker 6: Oh okay, Now what I've been that I've just been
Speaker 6: given the notified notice about last week saying that my
Speaker 6: role has been a step disestablished.
Speaker 3: So that's normal, John, I'm afraid you're you're heading for redundancy.
Speaker 3: The answer I got to that is my advice is
Speaker 3: to what I said to the previous quarter. Because your
Speaker 3: jobs under threat, you've got rights to some information. You've
Speaker 3: got to ask lots of questions. You know, why my job?
Speaker 3: Why is my my colleagues not doing it? What is
Speaker 3: it that's about my role that is under threat? Is
Speaker 3: it because it's an effective and efficient And put a
Speaker 3: whole lot of really difficult questions to them and ask
Speaker 3: them and ask for it in writing, please for your advisor.
Speaker 2: Okay, Sorry, we couldn't talk to you for longer on that, John,
Speaker 2: just because time is against us. But yeah, absolutely ask questions.
Speaker 2: You're not just someone who gets it all dished up
Speaker 2: to them. You're entitled to ask questions and to stand
Speaker 2: up for yourself.
Speaker 3: The one term.
Speaker 2: Yep, there you go. Hey, great to see Max.
Speaker 5: Yeah you too.
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed today, well as you do everyday.
Speaker 2: Don't you make it sound like you make it sound
Speaker 2: like I enjoyed myself today. But as for a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks, a few weeks.
Speaker 3: Now, I've always enjoyed in here. You know that you've
Speaker 3: got to be scrape me out of the off the
Speaker 3: floor to get me out of here. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if you want to catch up with Max, he's easy.
Speaker 2: Just google and wax Max Whitehead and Max. There's an
Speaker 2: unfortunate for them, isn't it? Max Whiteheads on eight hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty four seven ninety three three. Well, looking forward
Speaker 2: to next weekend. Just a little teaser. We're looking for
Speaker 2: the one roof radio show.
Speaker 5: We'll have.
Speaker 2: Elsa Wolfo was a new guest last time. She's a
Speaker 2: bit of a renovations expert on how to add value
Speaker 2: to your home and for the Health Hub. On Sunday,
Speaker 2: we've got Alex Bartle, a sleep expert, joining us and
Speaker 2: Hannah McQueen. It's been a while since we've seen Hannah,
Speaker 2: so she's back and we'll be chatting to Hannah on
Speaker 2: smart Money. Hey, thanks for your company. Thanks for your
Speaker 2: company this evening Sunday at six US next and thanks
Speaker 2: to my producers Tyra and Mary, and we'll look forward
Speaker 2: to your company again next weekend. Have a great week,
Speaker 2: Catch you soon on the out of your Name.
Speaker 5: Angels up in the clouds, hi Yah, let's know We down.
Speaker 1: For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
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