1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: Yoda. I am Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. If 3 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: you ever feel like you're always being asked to donate 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: money to some cause or another, you're probably not wrong. 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: In New Zealand, there are more than twenty eight thousand 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: registered charities with an annual income of more than twenty 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: one billion dollars, on top of over one hundred and 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: ten thousand not for profit organizations. Legislation leaves the definition. 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 2: Of a charity pretty broad. 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: If you say you're tackling poverty, advancing educational religion, or 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: beneficial to the community in any way, you could probably 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: sign up to the charities register. That broad definition is 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: in the spotlight again this week, though, after an aggressive 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: protest by Destiny Church members at a Rainbow Family event 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: sparked backlash over the church's charitable status. 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: They came inside and they were trying to get up 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 3: the stairs, and the library staff were just like trying 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 3: to calm them down and to tell them they can't 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 3: come upstairs, and then they got wrapped up and started 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 3: china hit people. 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: I was shocked. 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: I didn't know what they were doing and why they 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 3: were doing it. 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: So is the law up to date or is it 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: time we take a look at what organizations are getting 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: a tax break today on the front page. Former independent 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: advisor to the Tax Working Group, Andrea Black is. 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: With us to discuss. 29 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: Andrea, so, can you tell me a little bit about 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: how the Charities Act works at the moment. 31 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: The Charities Act itself on application allows any entity or 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: trust that has the objectives of advancing education, religion, relief 33 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: of poverty or general good things the community can become charitable. 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: You also have to show that the charity itself, any 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 2: funds that it's getting, are going towards those objectives and 36 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: that there aren't any sort of off the scale amounts 37 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: of money going to any trustee or anybody connected with 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: a charity. Now, if you've gone through these hopes and 39 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: Charity Services says yep, your charity your registered charity. And 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: every year you have to file something called mean your 41 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: return which shows who are your offices, and you generally 42 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: have to, depending on how large you are, file some 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: form of accounts in some form of reckoning of what 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: you've done in a year. Now, if you've hit all 45 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: those highlights to the purposes of the Income Tax Act. 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: Two things happen. One, you are exempt from the income 47 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: tax system as a whole, so any income or anything 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: or receipts or things like that are not subject to tax. 49 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: And similarly, any businesses that you own that have the 50 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: objective at advancing those heads of charity are also not 51 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: subject to tax. The other thing that you get is 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 2: access to something called the donation's tax credit, which means 53 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: that if anybody gives you money, then one third of 54 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: what they give you up to their taxable income, they 55 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: get back from the government. So if I earn one 56 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: thousand dollars in a year and I give away one 57 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: thousand dollars in a year, give away one thousand dollars 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: to a registered charity, the government will give me effectively 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: one third of that back. But if only at five 60 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: hundred dollars and I gave a thousand dollars, it would 61 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: only be up to the five hundred dollars. So it 62 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: means that you can give quite large amounts of money 63 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: and the government will give a back. So that that's 64 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: the effect of being a registered charity. 65 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: In a post cab this week, Prime Minister Christopher Luxen 66 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: mentioned something regarding a possible review of charities and their 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: tax status. It was when he was asked about Destiny 68 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: Church's charity status. 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 4: Well, look, I have to say I thought the Destiny 70 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 4: Church protests cross the line. That's not the care we way. 71 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 4: When you're intimidating public officials and public facilities, that's not 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 4: the way that we expect things to be in this country. 73 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 4: We expect people to have free speech, we expect them 74 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 4: to protest peacefully but also respectfully, and we certainly value 75 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 4: the diversity it exists here in New Zealand. I know 76 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: some of those matters are before the police and they're 77 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 4: looking into some of that, but I'll leave that for them. 78 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 4: Do you think that they should be a charity? 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: Just to push back Paster? 80 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: Do you think that Destiny is right to have that 81 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: charitable Well, it is a broader question at play, which 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 4: you know we've said that we would look at and 83 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 4: due course around the registrant charities and their charitable status 84 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 4: and therefore the attacks treatment as a consequence, and they 85 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 4: will form part of that brought a piece of work. 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: What kind of review would you like to see done? 87 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I think that the Prime Minister was talking 88 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: about was not so much charities in general, but more 89 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: their business operations. To be perfectly honest, taxing a charity 90 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: there's probably nothing in it because on the whole they 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: well to the extent that they distribute all that they receive. 92 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 2: You only pay tax on a profit. Also, the other 93 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: thing with charities, if their income is donations. Donations is 94 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: just traditionally outside the tax base. So if I were 95 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: to give you one hundred dollars, Chelsea, you pay tax 96 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: on your income, but you wouldn't be paying tax on 97 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: that hundred dollars. So unless you were to change the 98 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: rules for charities, tax on their ordinary operations would be 99 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: neither here nor there. Businesses, however, are a bit different now. 100 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: A lot of people get upset that businesses, you know, 101 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: Sanitarium tends to be the post a child for this, 102 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: are not paying tax on their profits, while I think 103 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: cupboards are. 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 5: Arguing policy lobbying government isn't charity. It's activism, and that's fine. 105 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 5: It's just highly debatable as to whether you should get 106 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 5: special as tax status to do it, and I would 107 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 5: argue you shouldn't. Sanitariut they're a charity because of its 108 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 5: church connections, and yet they make week picks. What's that 109 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 5: got to do with being a charity? Church is a charity, 110 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 5: which on the surface makes perfect sense. But what about 111 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 5: the churches that hold some of the largest land holdings 112 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 5: in the world, and as a result, are richer than God. 113 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 5: Why does someone with that sort of wealth then deserve 114 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 5: a tax break? And in that lies the complexity of 115 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 5: it all. Once you start making exceptions, once you start 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 5: widening the criteria, all in sundry on a piece of 117 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 5: the action, and when that happens, sooner or later a 118 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 5: few decisions again to get made that rub people up 119 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 5: the wrong way. 120 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest, I would say whether people 121 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: pay tax is only something in land revenue will know. 122 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: All you can ever hope for is know is whether 123 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: somebody is in the taxis. You don't know whether they're 124 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: actually paying tax. Now, Sanitarium, I've got no idea. I've 125 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: never looked at their accounts. But the Tax Working Group 126 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: was of the view that the only issue is really 127 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: what happens to their profits as to whether or not 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: there is any form of competitive or comparative advantage. So 129 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: like if hubbrid and Sanitarium both earn one hundred dollars 130 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: public pays say twenty eight cents tax, Sanitarium pays nothing, 131 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: but that twenty eight cents is then effectively transferred to 132 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: the benefit of the Seven day Adventist Church. That fits 133 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: within we say the policy parameters of taxing charities that 134 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: neither here nor there and will not actually make any 135 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: markets distorted. Where it becomes more interesting is if Sanitarium 136 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: or their equivalent don't pay tax on that income and 137 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: then roll it up, and if now have a larger 138 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: capital base because they haven't paid tax. Now that was 139 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: the problem that the Tax Working Group was conned about, 140 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: and to be honest, that's my view of the world. 141 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: I see that as the potential concern. But to me, 142 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: the real issue that I always have with charities, religion 143 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: and the tax system is the donation's tax credit. Because 144 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: the donations Let's say, for example, Destiny has a million 145 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: dollars of donations, it has a million dollars under any system, 146 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: it wouldn't be taxed, but the individuals who've given that 147 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: money to Destiny will be entitled to a third back. 148 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: So strictly speaking of say a million dollars, a third 149 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: of that comes from the tax path, comes from the 150 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: tax base, and I personally have problems with in a 151 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: secular society subsidizing organized religion. Now, organized religion is a 152 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: net positive in my view, but so are a lot 153 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: of things like political parties, unions, action station all these 154 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 2: are net positive. But there isn't a one third subsidy 155 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: in the system anyway. 156 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: That third that you get back if you donate to 157 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: a charity on the charity registered charity, the government pays that, right, 158 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: the government's giving you that third back. 159 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely there But two things. One we've got no 160 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: real idea of how much it is. Two, it's open 161 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: ended because anyone who decides to make that donation gets 162 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: the benefit irrespective of how much the government wants to spend. 163 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: And finally, it's the individual that makes the decision of 164 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 2: where to allocate basically governmental taxpayer money. While normally when 165 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: the government is spending money through the budget it is 166 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: elected representatives who are making those decisions Minister of Finance 167 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: and it goes through parliament. I see those as fairly 168 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: substantial differences. So to me, when a lot of things 169 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: go on about tax and charities, I'm not particularly concerned 170 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 2: about charities paying tax themselves or necessarily with businesses with businesses. 171 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: To me, the issue is whether or not the norn 172 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: the lack of tax has been passed on for a 173 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: charitable benefit. And my particular concern is the donation's tax. 174 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: Critit seems like the tax status of churches and charities. 175 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: It's a topic that crops up from time to time, 176 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: and when I say time to time, quite often. Right, 177 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: I've read that some of the foundations of our charity's 178 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: law actually dates back to England's Charitable Uses Act sixteen 179 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: oh one. Do you think that these exemptions are still 180 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: justified in this day and age. 181 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if you go back to the date you mentioned, 182 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: it kind of made sense because the church is were 183 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: our social welfare system. The fact that they didn't pay 184 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: tax or even the people contributing to you know what 185 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: was effectively the social welfare system made sense. And so 186 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 2: to be fair, I don't have a problem per se 187 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: about organizations that are still doing that sort of thing. 188 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: So like Wellington City Mission, Salvation Army, Catholic Social Services. 189 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: It's completely reasonable. I think that the government does support 190 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: them in some form. The only issue I have is 191 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: that any support given through a donation's tax credit is 192 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: completely non transparent, while with money that goes through a budget, 193 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: the Minister of Finance has to put that to Parliament 194 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: in the scrutiny. So if they want to give money 195 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: to the Salvation Army that forms part of a budget 196 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: that Parliament approves or not. 197 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: I guess if we look at Destiny Church as an example, 198 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: and that's why I kind of guess we're talking about 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: this again. This week police are investigating allegations of assault 200 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: after about fifty members swarmed the Tiata two Community Center 201 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: to protest a Pride event. So in the Charities Act 202 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: I read it says an entity may be removed from 203 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: the register if it has engaged in serious wrongdoing or 204 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: any person has engaged in serious wrongdoing in connection with 205 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: that entity. Now would storming a council facility and intimidating 206 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: staff and the public can be considered serious wrongdoing? 207 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: Do you think? Well, it would be from my perspective, 208 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: but there's probably case law as to how that's properly defined. 209 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: I'd be surprised if charity services we're looking at it. 210 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: If a review was to start tomorrow, what do you 211 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: think the scope should be? Do you think there's just 212 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: too many charities? On the register at the moment I 213 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: read somewhere there's one charity in New Zealand for about 214 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: every one hundred and eighty people. 215 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: Charities reviews are fraught with danger because even if the 216 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: politicians or the Minister of Finance wishes to restrict it 217 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: in some way, there's a risk that they end up 218 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: expanding coverage rather than reducing it. I think this government 219 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: is not looking at charities per se. It's just the 220 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: tax treatment of businesses, which strikes me as a much 221 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: more manageable way of approaching things. 222 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 6: I'll tell you what else isn't okay. The fact that 223 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 6: this outfit, this Destiny outfit, is out there bullying people, 224 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 6: dishing out their hatred, but because they call themselves a church, 225 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 6: they enjoy all the tax benefits that come with that. 226 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 6: I was reading this morning that a few years back, 227 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 6: some Destiny Church charities were removed from the charities registered 228 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 6: for the lot filing their annual tax returns. And before 229 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 6: that happened, you might remember this, more than seventy thousand 230 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 6: people signed a petition calling for Charity Services to strip 231 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 6: the churchill its tax exempt status. At went nowhere. I've 232 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 6: had a look at the register this morning and the 233 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 6: Destiny Church, New Zealand Trust is still there and there 234 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 6: are still some regional branches registered as a charity to 235 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 6: include in Christ Church, which is a rut. 236 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: And obviously at the moment when what I said before 237 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: about Destiny Church, there's been uproar online about whether it 238 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: should get its tax status taken away. But do you 239 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: think that that could set a risky precedent if individual 240 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: charities start getting deregistered. 241 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: Well, the tax needs to be connected to whether or 242 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: not there are charity and so a lot of it 243 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: would come down to charity services rather than inland revenue 244 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: you mentioned before, serious wrongdoing. That's a great test. I 245 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: would expect that charity services would be revealing that. But 246 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: just generally charity being having their status with drawn because 247 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: someone doesn't like it is problematic. I think we've got sufficient. 248 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: You know, we've got a sort of arms length body 249 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: in the form of charity services that is doing that. 250 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: If someone really doesn't like the religion aspect, then the 251 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: charities law needs changing, which is in a you know, 252 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: its own process going through Parliament where everyone who doesn't 253 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: want that has an opportunity to submit and provide views. 254 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: Just Finally, how much benefit will we actually get from 255 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: making charities pay taxes? Is there some kind of golden 256 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: egg out there that we're missing out on? 257 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it absolutely is wrong to think 258 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: it's a golden egg with the normal part of charities. 259 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: First of all, it's very unlikely any donations that they've 260 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: received would be taxable, and that's the basis of their income. Secondly, 261 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: most charities will spend all their income and you only 262 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: ever pay tax on profits or surplus. So there we go. 263 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: And similarly, if you wanted to start taxing charitable businesses, 264 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: well you could do that. Yeah, I don't know whether 265 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: it's necessarily a golden egg because I don't know how many, 266 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: you know, sanitariums there are, And again it depends on 267 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: how profitable the businesses. You only put texts on profits. 268 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Andrea. 269 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: No problem. 270 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Addle. That's it for this episode of The Front Page. 271 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 272 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: coverage at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page 273 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is 274 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: also our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. 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