1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Now a group of senior former politicians have come out 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: against the government's foreign policy position. Don Brash, Jeffrey Palmer, 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Helen Clark and David Carter are among a group who've 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: signed an open letter urging the Prime Minister to rethink 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: what they call an adversarial stance towards China. Now for more, 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: let's talk to Helen Clark High Helen Hia. Helen, what 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: is it that you are so worried about that you 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: guys have felt the need to take up full page 9 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: ads in a bunch of newspapers. 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: New Zealand's had a very carefully balanced foreign policy and 11 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: fully independent. So we have a major trade partner in 12 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: China with the US. We have a partner in values, 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 2: democratic systems, and also significant trade. But what we've seen 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: is this steady drift towards signing more and more military 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: agreements with the US, and clearly agreements that are aimed 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: at China, our major trade partner. Now, this could be 17 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: extremely costly to New Zealand. Firstly because countries that the 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: US perceives of as quote allies, which we haven't formed 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: been for quite a long time being asked to spend 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: huge amounts of money on the fence. And secondly, if 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: China decided to retaliate in some way, then our trade 22 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: is endangered. So there's quite risky territory here. 23 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, not even to mention the fact that the US 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: is unreliable. Right, They'll be with us until it suits, 25 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: and they'll leave us sitting there. 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 2: This is exactly the point. So you could be making, 27 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of statements in line with the 28 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: rhetoric today and then you wake up, as we did 29 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: this morning, to find that President She and President Trump 30 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: have had a very friendly conversation. Now I'm troubled. I've 31 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: had a friendly conversation. It's been it's been needed. But 32 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: you don't know what dime it's going to turn on today. 33 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, but now, what are you worried about? I mean 34 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: that you guys are acting as if you are genuinely 35 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: very concerned about something quite drastic happening. 36 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: What is that? Well, the most drastic thing that could 37 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: happen would be non tariff barriers starting to enter the 38 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: trade with China. Yeah, and you know, I mean think 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: back to Rainbow Warrior when the frozen lamb's brains rotted 40 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: and the port are not suggesting that that considering any 41 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: such thing. But if New Zealand continues to poke in 42 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 2: the eye gratuitously sailing through the Taiwan Straits of the 43 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: naval vessel, all the rhetoric about the threat these series 44 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 2: of new agreements that are being signed. I mean Chinese, 45 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: you know they watch all this. I'm not saying we 46 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: should be beholden to any one country. I'm saying, as 47 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: the colleagues are saying, can we please get back that 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: careful balance between our relationships now. 49 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: The thing is the use of the word adversarial. Right, 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: it reads as if you guys think that we are 51 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: provoking China. But is it not the case that China 52 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: is actually provoking us and is a threat to us. 53 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: No, I don't accept that it's a threat to us. 54 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: How do we explain them sailing the warships down the 55 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: Tasman Sea. 56 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: Well, actually they have total freedom of navigation, and of 57 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: course Zealand exercise freedom of navigation sailing through the Taiwan 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: Straits prior to that, So there can be a bit 59 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: of tit for tat in this. 60 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: Well, that is an act of provocation, isn't it. I 61 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: mean they're not just doing that for a little bit 62 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: of a sight seeing exercise, but. 63 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: Anymore than New Zealand sailing through the Taiwan straight. I think, 64 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: you know, what goes around comes around. I think where 65 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: they made a significant mistake, Heather, was they should have 66 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: advised they were going to do their firing exercises and 67 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: that remember that had some impact on aviation and so on. 68 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: That was deliberate, wasn't it. 69 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we should have we should have been advised. 70 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: Australian should have been advised, no question. 71 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: So. 72 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: But these are the tensions that are coming into the relationship, 73 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: and as I say, that can play out in different ways, 74 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: including with respect to non tariff barriers. For example, you know, 75 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: a wink and a nod from Beijing means that travelers 76 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 2: don't come to New Zealand in great numbers and we've 77 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: never got back to the pre pandemic levels. 78 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, listen, what do you make of Winston saying 79 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: that the three of you are irrelevant, three of you 80 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: being the former prime ministers and opposition leaders. 81 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: Obviously it's interesting, isn't it When you make a point 82 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: that's back with a number of factual statements about what 83 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: we're concerned about, that their immediate response is to mount 84 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: a personal attack. I'm not going to descend to that level. 85 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: He should address the substance of what we're saying, which 86 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: is that the government is intent on a radical realignment 87 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: of New Zealand foreign policy, and that never took that 88 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: to the electorate, and the electorate rightly really is focused 89 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 2: on the cost of living and housing and a lot 90 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: of other things. But meanwhile a realignment which carries some 91 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: real risks in New Zealand is underway. 92 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: Helen, it's good to talk to you. I really appreciate 93 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: your time. Helen Clark, former Prime Minister. 94 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 95 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: news talks. 96 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: They'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 97 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.