1
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,560
Speaker 1: New Zealand's entire system for paying for the roads we

2
00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,560
Speaker 1: drive on is about to change, and it could hit

3
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: your wallet sooner than you think. I'm Peter Griffin for

4
00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,280
Speaker 1: Business Desk and on the Business of Tech. This week

5
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,239
Speaker 1: we're unpacking one of the biggest transport policy shifts in

6
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,440
Speaker 1: fifty years, moving every light vehicle in the country onto

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,680
Speaker 1: the road user charge or RUCK system. Right now, most

8
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,599
Speaker 1: of us pay for roads without really thinking about it

9
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: through fuel excise duty baked into every leader of petrol

10
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,519
Speaker 1: and diesel sold at the pump. With pump prices already

11
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: sky high as a result of the war with Iran,

12
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,360
Speaker 1: that hidden tax component is really significant, and many are

13
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,840
Speaker 1: hoping that shifting away from fuel excise will finally bring

14
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 1: some relief at the forecourt. But willetts. When ruck expands

15
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,639
Speaker 1: early next year, you won't just be paying a bit

16
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,880
Speaker 1: extra every time you fill up. You'll be paying per

17
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 1: kilometer you drive, more like a power or broadbound bill

18
00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 1: you actively manage each month for everyday drivers. That turns

19
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: what has been an automatic tax into a new layer

20
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 1: of admin and compliance, another bill to track, another system

21
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 1: to understand, and potentially another source of anxiety and a

22
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,119
Speaker 1: cost of living crisis. To help make sense of it all,

23
00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,039
Speaker 1: I'm joined by entrepreneur Adam Johnston, who's been deep in

24
00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,160
Speaker 1: the weeds of these changes and describes the expansion off

25
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 1: ruck as a fundamental rewiring of how we fund it

26
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,479
Speaker 1: transport in New Zealand. We look at why the government

27
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: says it has to do it, from looming deficits in

28
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 1: the Land Transport Fund to more efficient cars, eroding fuel

29
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: tax revenue, and what it really means for what you

30
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: pay to keep your car on the road. We'll also

31
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 1: dig into the lists talked about side how opening up

32
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: ruck collection to private retailers and payment providers might improve

33
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 1: the customer experience, but could also bake in new fees

34
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 1: and profit margins into every transaction that ultimately land on you,

35
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: the driver. But it is a story about innovation too.

36
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,119
Speaker 1: As ruck becomes a massive digital utility market, processing billions

37
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,160
Speaker 1: and payments each year, there's an opportunity for smarter tools

38
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,320
Speaker 1: and services to help me manage it. Adam and his

39
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: co founder Brian Pasco are working on exactly that, building

40
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,920
Speaker 1: app based products on top of their ruck Hub project

41
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,919
Speaker 1: aimed at making a confusing system more transparent and competitive.

42
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 1: We also touch on how a new ecosystem of ruck apps,

43
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 1: talimatics and payment options might emerge, who is likely to dominate,

44
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,920
Speaker 1: and what it will take to avoid a cozy oligopoly

45
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: and instead foster genuine competition that benefits drivers. If you

46
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: drive a car in New Zealand, this episode affects you,

47
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 1: stay with us as we break down how the new

48
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,920
Speaker 1: ruck regime of work, why it's happening, who stands to

49
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,639
Speaker 1: win and lose, and what you can do now to

50
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,919
Speaker 1: get ready before the switch is flipped. Here's my interview

51
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:11,520
Speaker 1: with Adam Jogle. Adam, welcome to the business of tech.

52
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,119
Speaker 1: How are you doing good?

53
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, Peter, It's great to be here.

54
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 1: Some big changes coming to road user charges. Adam lay

55
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,240
Speaker 1: it out for us. What is this transition that we

56
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 1: are all expected to go on by twenty twenty seven.

57
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean the whole change that's happening. I mean,

58
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 3: it's described by the media as perhaps the biggest transport

59
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 3: policy shift in the last fifty years. Is basically moving

60
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 3: all of New Zealand's light vehicles, so every vehicle left

61
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 3: in the country onto the road user charger system. So

62
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,480
Speaker 3: the system currently that applies to heavy vehicles. So instead

63
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 3: of paying for your road tax, basically you pay it

64
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 3: currently through fuel ax size duty, which is obviously when

65
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 3: you top up your car when you get petrol. That's

66
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 3: where you're currently contributing to the Land Transport Fund and

67
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 3: that's how the roads are funded. In the future, you

68
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 3: will be paying that through the road us A charger system,

69
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 3: so that basically means you'll be paying for every kilometer

70
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 3: you drive and it won't be done through fuel tax.

71
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 3: Kind of reason for this, or at least the reason

72
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 3: that the government had pointed out, is they have the

73
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,960
Speaker 3: main problem of it is they have a deficit upcoming

74
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,840
Speaker 3: in the Land Transport Fund, so they're going to basically

75
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 3: run out of money. Because vehicles are getting more efficient,

76
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,279
Speaker 3: people are driving more efficient vehicles, people are perhaps driving

77
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,240
Speaker 3: less and so obviously the roads need to still be

78
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 3: maintained and so the best way to do that is

79
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,840
Speaker 3: to move everyone to the ROCK system. And it's the

80
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,000
Speaker 3: system that's been around for a long time. I think

81
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 3: that the evolution of it really started around nineteen seventy seven,

82
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,359
Speaker 3: so that's when I think roaders of charges were first introduced,

83
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 3: and New Zealand was one of the first to move

84
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,480
Speaker 3: to that system. Then we're also going to be one

85
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,640
Speaker 3: of the first. I mean people like to say that

86
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:54,840
Speaker 3: we're going to be the first.

87
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 2: But we're actually not.

88
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 3: Technically Iceland has beat us to it with the ruck

89
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 3: system there, but we're going to be the first to

90
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 3: move all of our one of the first to move

91
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 3: all of our light vehicles to road user charges. So

92
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,279
Speaker 3: we're definitely kind of a spearhead and a pioneer in

93
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 3: that in that sense too. What does that mean for

94
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 3: every day news Islanders? Yeah, well, I mean I guess

95
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,039
Speaker 3: for every day news Islanders, it basically means now that

96
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 3: they have to think about essentially attacks that was done

97
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 3: for them, that was done autonomously, that was taken care

98
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 3: of for them. So there's a lot of thought that

99
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 3: goes into that. The way I kind of imagine it

100
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,200
Speaker 3: is becoming another one of your utility bills that you

101
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 3: have to take care of, almost like power or internet

102
00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,840
Speaker 3: or gas. It simply becomes part of the utility economy

103
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 3: and so it definitely puts a bit more pressure I

104
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 3: think on New Zealanders to have to think about that

105
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,360
Speaker 3: and have to worry about that, just another level of

106
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,240
Speaker 3: vehicle compliance that they have to make sure that their

107
00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 3: vehicle's compliant with But hopefully you'll see that the private

108
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 3: market evolves and that there are some innovative solutions that

109
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,360
Speaker 3: mean that it's not actually as complicated as it might

110
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,600
Speaker 3: sound for New Zealanders and that most things can be

111
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:06,640
Speaker 3: taken care of for them.

112
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,280
Speaker 1: We'll talk a bit about sort of this opening up

113
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 1: of this marketplace for rock retailers, but just a sort

114
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,359
Speaker 1: of big picture Adam sort of look at what this

115
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:24,040
Speaker 1: fuel excise duty that's currently charged for petrol users. It's

116
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 1: about seventy cents I think, and every lead, the effect

117
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: of sort of tax burden I think on every liter

118
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 1: of petrol sold is about a dollar twenty when you

119
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,360
Speaker 1: add in GST and acc levees and that sort of thing.

120
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 1: And obviously that money and particularly the fuel excise duty

121
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,240
Speaker 1: that's seventy cents. That is what is funding the upgrade

122
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 1: and the upkeep of our roads currently, isn't it.

123
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: Yeah?

124
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 3: It is, yeah, around fuel exercise duty and kind of

125
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,480
Speaker 3: of what we expect to happen there once it's removed

126
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 3: and everyone's on a ruck system. I mean, the natural

127
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,240
Speaker 3: question that a lot of people ask and kind of

128
00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 3: hope for is that, well, surely we're going to see

129
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 3: a decrease of of fuel prices now now that we've

130
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 3: taken out kind of a big chunk of what was

131
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,920
Speaker 3: pushing up the price per liter. And I'd say that

132
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 3: that's probably quite optimistic. You know, I certainly hope that

133
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 3: we'll see a decrease in fuel prices, but I certainly

134
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 3: also expect that perhaps some of the fuel companies have

135
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 3: gotten quite comfortable with including or using fuel exercise duty

136
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 3: as a justification to keep some of the prices quite high. So,

137
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not sure if it will see a

138
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,080
Speaker 3: ginormous step on it, but certainly you would expect to

139
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 3: see some you would expect to see some decrease. And

140
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 3: part of the push from the government when they publicly

141
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,800
Speaker 3: announced that all light vehicles would be moving to ruck

142
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 3: was that. And I do specifically remember the Transport Mini's

143
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 3: a saying this that this would quote unquote save a

144
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 3: lot of New Zealander's money. Now, I'm not sure it

145
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 3: actually will, to become clearly honest with you, I think

146
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 3: that actually a lot of people, once you take into

147
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 3: account the fact that the commercial and the private sector

148
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 3: are going to need to be making their profit. I'm

149
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 3: not sure that you'll you'll necessarily see a big cost

150
00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 3: saving there for a lot of people. Sure, some people

151
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 3: on really are what's the word older types of vehicles

152
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 3: maybe saving something as right now, they are definitely disproportionately

153
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 3: funding the roads compared to someone who might drive like

154
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 3: a twurd of Prius, which is a very fuel efficient vehicle.

155
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 3: They might see some savings there, But by and large,

156
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,640
Speaker 3: there is a big problem facing the private sector when

157
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 3: it comes to the commercialization of rock. And it's actually

158
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 3: an interesting point that I don't see talked about much

159
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 3: in the media, but when we talk about digitizing the

160
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,439
Speaker 3: system and accepting a variety of different payment methods, this

161
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 3: obviously means we need to include the payment providers. So

162
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 3: think places like Stripe poly now those providers charge a

163
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 3: fee for every transaction that passes through their network. It's unavoidable.

164
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 3: It's not something you can get around really, no matter

165
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,080
Speaker 3: how big you are as a business that it's not

166
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 3: something you can negotiate down to zero. There's always going

167
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,439
Speaker 3: to be some cost there. And I think that that's

168
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 3: tricky when you talk about ruck as being crown revenue.

169
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 3: So for these private companies and It's actually something that

170
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 3: Eero did bring up briefly at the Select Committee. They

171
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,360
Speaker 3: bought up the fact that when a customer makes a

172
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 3: purchase through a private sector provider in the future, let's

173
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,440
Speaker 3: say they buy one hundred dollars worth of ruck, then

174
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,439
Speaker 3: the payment providers are going to want to take two

175
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 3: point five percent of that. Now, that one hundred dollars

176
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,760
Speaker 3: is naturally not e Roads money, so it's going to

177
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,040
Speaker 3: pass through to Crown revenue. So if they take two

178
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 3: dollars fifty from that, whatever commercial margin e Road wants

179
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 3: to make now has to be greater than that two

180
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 3: point five percent to make up for the fact that

181
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,000
Speaker 3: they've had to essentially pay the payment providers just for

182
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 3: processing that transaction.

183
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:48,880
Speaker 2: And even though the money will kind.

184
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 3: Of instantaneously be passed through to NZTA, just because the

185
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 3: payment providers have come in contact with that money, they're

186
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 3: still going to want their cut. And it's actually something

187
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,040
Speaker 3: that we talked to or tried to talk to some

188
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,839
Speaker 3: of the payment providers about. And the bottom line is

189
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,320
Speaker 3: that even though it's Crown revenue at this stage, there's

190
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 3: basically no exemptions for it. There is volume exemptions where

191
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 3: they will decrease the standard fees, which sit around anywhere

192
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,199
Speaker 3: from one point something to two point five is really

193
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 3: what you see for the standard transaction processing fees. But

194
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 3: they did say, some of them I won't name names now,

195
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 3: but they did say that they were interested in bringing

196
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 3: it down if there was the right amount of volume.

197
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,719
Speaker 3: So what looks like the right amount of volume, Well,

198
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 3: it's hundreds of millions basically for them to consider substantially

199
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 3: decreasing it, which kind of leads back to the bigger

200
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 3: picture of who's capable of doing volume at that level. Well,

201
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,239
Speaker 3: naturally it's going to be a couple of the big providers.

202
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,880
Speaker 3: So when you see those kind of scale mechanics working out,

203
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,719
Speaker 3: I think you might or a reasonable person might draw

204
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 3: to the conclusion that perhaps we're going to end up

205
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 3: in a market where you have only a couple of

206
00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 3: big providers operating because they are capable of doing such

207
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,560
Speaker 3: huge volume that they've been able to negotiate fees and

208
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,960
Speaker 3: the barrier to entry for anyone else is actually quite high.

209
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,680
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't blame payment providers. They have

210
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 3: their own reasons for it. They are carrying risk just

211
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,839
Speaker 3: by processing the transaction technically they're carrying all kinds of

212
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 3: fraud risk and liability risk, but it does introduce another

213
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,199
Speaker 3: cost that ultimately would have to be passed on to

214
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,560
Speaker 3: the consumer. I mean, there's no two ways around it.

215
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 3: The government's not going to accept absorbing that fee and

216
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,160
Speaker 3: decreasing the amount of revenue they're getting from ruck. And

217
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 3: at the same time, the private sector is not going

218
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 3: to accept taking a loss or absorbing the cost of

219
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 3: that transaction fee either. So I think that that would

220
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,679
Speaker 3: be my main concern when it comes to cost for people.

221
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,079
Speaker 1: At the moment we're talking about You know, this is

222
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 1: serious money, about two billion dollars a year unexisting rock revenue,

223
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: so that will obviously increase as fuel xcize goes down.

224
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: At the moment, it's all pretty much done through waka kotahi. Right,

225
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,440
Speaker 1: you have a ruck license, you pre pay for a

226
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,920
Speaker 1: certain amount of mileage and if you don't do that,

227
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 1: they will basically send you an assessment. If you don't

228
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: pay that, you could get fined. Yeah, so pretty simple

229
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: system at the moment, all done through waka tahi. What

230
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 1: do you think if the the idea of opening this up,

231
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 1: which is the decision that's been made to retailers, basically

232
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: turning it into a marketplace. Is that the most efficient

233
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 1: way to do it.

234
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,360
Speaker 3: In terms of efficiency, there's a couple of points. I

235
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 3: think that, yes, it's probably going to be the most

236
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 3: efficient customer experience. Like I do think having been to

237
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 3: NZTA many times, having queued up there, weighted there, you know,

238
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 3: waiting fifteen days for apply to them via email, I

239
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 3: think the private sector is undoubtedly going to offer a

240
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 3: better customer experience for paying customers, answering their questions, getting

241
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,960
Speaker 3: things processed faster than perhaps waka kor tahi can. But

242
00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 3: do I think that it's going to be a cheaper

243
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,280
Speaker 3: system for New Zealanders. Honestly, no, I don't, and there's

244
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 3: a number of reasons for that. But just the main

245
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 3: point to get to is just as the market is privatized,

246
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,719
Speaker 3: there is a natural commercial incentive for anyone who wants

247
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 3: to participate. I mean, the private sectors aren't there to

248
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 3: run a charity and just facilitate the processing of rock revenue.

249
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 2: They're there to make a profit.

250
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,600
Speaker 3: And so I mean that naturally kind of brings up

251
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,520
Speaker 3: some questions about whether we've created the wrong incentives by

252
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 3: privatizing the system. It's also kind of introduced. Interesting to

253
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 3: note if you kind of allude this to what other

254
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,599
Speaker 3: countries are doing or done. I know we're quite pioneering

255
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 3: in the sense, but I mean you look at the

256
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 3: UK's one. So they're introducing a pay per mile for

257
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,400
Speaker 3: evs and that's scheduled for April twenty twenty eight. But

258
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,080
Speaker 3: the way they're doing that, from my understanding, is that

259
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,400
Speaker 3: is going to be state controlled, so the government's going

260
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,200
Speaker 3: to control it, but they're using the private sector to

261
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 3: procure technology. So obviously there's big procurement contracts going out

262
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 3: there to build the technology and acquire the technology to

263
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,079
Speaker 3: run a program like that, but then ultimately the government

264
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,559
Speaker 3: is going to run that program themselves. The same kind

265
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 3: of things happening in the States with the OReGO program.

266
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,720
Speaker 3: I mean, private sector is involved there, but ultimately those

267
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 3: will end up being state run programs once they are

268
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 3: implemented at a larger scale. And you know, you can

269
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 3: kind of see the same with what Singapore have done.

270
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 3: I mean, the rock industry talk a little bit about

271
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,640
Speaker 3: Singapore as an example of Oh, I think the system's

272
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 3: quite different to what we're proposing, but ultimately the private

273
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 3: sector was used to develop a lot of the satellite

274
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 3: based They have a very advanced system, the GENSS technology

275
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 3: that tracks all of the vehicle mileage. But ultimately the

276
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 3: revenue is collected through the government. So it's definitely an

277
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 3: interesting idea introducing the private sector into the equation and

278
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 3: the actual collection of the revenue. And I do think

279
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,600
Speaker 3: it will have some benefits for New Zealanders. I think

280
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 3: you'll get some very clever integrations with different commercial products,

281
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 3: Like I can imagine certain products being offered along se

282
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 3: side RUCK and that could definitely make for some interesting

283
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 3: packaging and different deals that you could get with RUCK.

284
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 3: And I also think the customer experience will be better.

285
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 3: You know, you'll be able to get instantaneous feedback and

286
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure a lot of these systems will be very efficient.

287
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,520
Speaker 3: But do I think it'll be cheaper for New Zealand. No,

288
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,600
Speaker 3: I don't think that you will save money.

289
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 1: Well, you'd hope it would be cost neutral, but there

290
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 1: will be you know, obviously you've got you talked about

291
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 1: the payment process so that they need to take their cut,

292
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 1: and that's reasonable, but then they're going to have to

293
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: integrate with you know, the retailer of the person who's

294
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 1: or the company that's putting the user indo face and

295
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,680
Speaker 1: all of this. You've got telematics providers, You've got potentially

296
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 1: a little device that needs to be stuck into a

297
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 1: vehicle that if you're going to automate this. So there's

298
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 1: obviously cost and terminal costs that sort of thing as well.

299
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.

300
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 3: So there's a couple of different solutions that we've seen

301
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 3: kind of forming in the market. They basically come down

302
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 3: to delivery channels and how they're distributed. So the main

303
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 3: one that I think a lot of the companies are

304
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 3: interested in is digital interfaces and purely digital so that's

305
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 3: no technology, no device in your car. You are basically

306
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,720
Speaker 3: self reporting in the app.

307
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 2: You're buying your.

308
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 3: Rock license, checking your ruck balance online and buying it. Now,

309
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 3: this raises an obvious question when it comes to enforcement,

310
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 3: which is, well, what if I just like, what if

311
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 3: I just what if I don't buy ruck? What if

312
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 3: I put in that myodometer is ten thousand kilometers less

313
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,280
Speaker 3: than what it actually is. And well, the answer to

314
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 3: that is there's nothing inherently stopping you from doing that.

315
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 3: That there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that but

316
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 3: it would almost be the same as driving around with

317
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 3: no WAFF or no regio. I mean you're breaking the

318
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,600
Speaker 3: law then, essentially, and I'm sure that would catch up

319
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 3: to you because when you do warrant a fitness, when

320
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 3: you renew your registration that we're on a fitness, especially

321
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,200
Speaker 3: when they check your odometer, which they do, and that

322
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 3: data all feeds back into the motor vehicle register, then

323
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 3: they will see that you don't have enough ruck or

324
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 3: that your rock license is out in comparison to your odometer.

325
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 3: Point you would be caught, and I assume that there

326
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 3: would be some kind of fine or something automatically sent

327
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 3: in the mail or when you get pulled over by police.

328
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 3: So there's obviously that element of self reporting. I want

329
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,199
Speaker 3: to say good honesty or good faith. Systems, but just

330
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 3: low technology systems, which are basically just delivered vira and app.

331
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,919
Speaker 3: They're quite soful delivered viral website, and there's a lot

332
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,520
Speaker 3: of interests from companies of doing that because it's quite

333
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 3: easy to distribute. I mean, you just have to build

334
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 3: an app and a web interface and do the marketing

335
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 3: for it, and it doesn't revolve the physical logistics of hardware.

336
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 3: But then there is the other side of it. So

337
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 3: then the other big solution that we see a lot

338
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,399
Speaker 3: of companies talking about is OBD devices, so essentially the

339
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,199
Speaker 3: devices that plug into your OBD ports. Now there's a

340
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 3: couple of variations of those devices that are being considered

341
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 3: for RUCK. We actually look strongly about a few months ago,

342
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 3: and maybe four or five months ago, at what non GPS

343
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 3: solutions were available for something like that, because right now

344
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,879
Speaker 3: the industry standard for those OBD devices is telematics based,

345
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,479
Speaker 3: so it's GPS based, but that's often not because I mean,

346
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 3: some people say it's more accurate, and there's a lot

347
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 3: of studies that would say it's a very accurate way

348
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 3: to measure distance traveled. But also there's a lot of

349
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 3: other elements that feed into the GPS technology, so more

350
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 3: around fleets and what big companies who operate big networks

351
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 3: of trucks and heavy vehicles would want to know, and

352
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 3: there's a lot more data that they can get out of.

353
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 2: GPS based systems.

354
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 3: However, we did look at a solution four or five

355
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,439
Speaker 3: months ago that took the GPS component out of it,

356
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 3: because we think well, for everyday New Zealanders, especially those

357
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 3: who are privacy conscious? Is a GPS based system really

358
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 3: necessary if all I want the device to do is

359
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 3: to automate the process of recording my O domeinter and

360
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 3: purchasing rucks for me, or putting it into some kind

361
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 3: of interface on my behalf so that I don't have

362
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 3: to keep up to date and keep manually entering my

363
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 3: dominant readings. Do I need a GPS based system for this, Well,

364
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 3: I'd like to say that the answer is no, But

365
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,920
Speaker 3: ultimately the market will kind of dictate whether GPS based

366
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,199
Speaker 3: device has become the industry standard. But you can actually

367
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 3: measure the distance that you're traveling reasonably accurately without a

368
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 3: GPS based system. So just by doing time and speed calculations,

369
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 3: which are available through most of the OBD ports in

370
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 3: your car, there's some certain calculations that you can do

371
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 3: to calculate the exact distance you've driven. It is slightly

372
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,680
Speaker 3: there are some weird edge cases around it that GPS

373
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 3: doesn't have an issue with, such as quite fast acceleration

374
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 3: and deceleration. But ultimately we think that a non GPS

375
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 3: based device.

376
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 2: Could work as well.

377
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 3: But those are really your two kinds of options I see,

378
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 3: And then of course, for I'm sure that there are

379
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 3: more advanced solutions out there. I mean, we've actually we've

380
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 3: talked to quite a lot of companies about different approaches

381
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 3: that they're interested and we've heard of everything from you know,

382
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 3: just very simple in putting information into your phone, from

383
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,120
Speaker 3: our satellite based systems that are able to read based

384
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 3: off devices in your are and there you know, ninety

385
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,360
Speaker 3: nine point nine nine percent accurate and things like that.

386
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 3: Perhaps a little bit overkill for for what New Zealand's

387
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 3: looking at, but there's a number of solutions out there,

388
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 3: and what will be the most popular, I guess is

389
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,880
Speaker 3: what the market demands, But I suspect that it will

390
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 3: be mostly some combination of apps on people's phones as

391
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 3: well as optional OBD technology and dongles for those who

392
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 3: are prepared to accept GPS based devices and have some

393
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 3: automation with that. There's obviously benefits to having GPS based devices,

394
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 3: but there's there's naturally is as well privacy concerns that

395
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 3: come around that.

396
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know a lot of you know, Tesla's

397
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: and the like, Well, we'll have that interoperability and OBED

398
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 1: devices on board, so that may as well take advantage

399
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: of that. But in terms of you know, obviously the

400
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 1: big trucking companies are used to the system because they

401
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 1: have big diesel trucks they've been paying for for decades

402
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: road user charges. Have they automated it to a large degree.

403
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: For instance, it's likes of e Road which does a

404
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 1: lot of telematics and fleet tracking. Have they integrated ruck

405
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: into their systems?

406
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:09,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

407
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 3: So for heavy vehicles, really heavy vehicles like truck trucks,

408
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 3: the rouck requirements to be able to offer e UCK solutions,

409
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,199
Speaker 3: that's what ENZNTA call it e eruck quite extreme. So

410
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 3: you have to have i think it's called a hubdometer,

411
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 3: which is some kind of wheel based system that is

412
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: essentially measuring the number of wheel rotations. You have to

413
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 3: ensure distance accuracy, and that's quite a heavy requirement for

414
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 3: private sector providers to meet new entrances, or even companies

415
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 3: in the adjacent space to produce that technology. From my understanding,

416
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 3: it's reasonably automated for a lot of those a lot

417
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: of those rock based systems for heavy vehicles, it is

418
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 3: reasonably automated. But it's unreasonable to assume that those exact systems,

419
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 3: which are often quite technically complicated need mechanical installs could

420
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: be applied to the light vehicle market. I mean, if

421
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 3: you were to ask all New Zealanders to go and

422
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 3: get some of the technology that exists now that has

423
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 3: automated it for trucks, I mean you'd be talking about

424
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 3: everyone needing to visit a mechanic to get to get

425
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 3: certain devices install and that's just not practical. Yeah, So

426
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: the Ministry have definitely said that there'll be the option

427
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: for more low tech solutions as well, and they're reducing

428
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: the requirements needed to become an e erup provider so

429
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 3: that people can offer solutions that aren't just very expensive,

430
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 3: mechanically complicated pieces of technology that go into your wheels

431
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 3: and things like that. And I expect to see the

432
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: majority of devices that do automate it being OBED dongles.

433
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: And you really can do a lot with obed dongles

434
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 3: paired with a smartphone, but there ultimately still has to

435
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 3: be a certain level of tax savviness with the user

436
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: as well. I mean they have to be able to,

437
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: at minimum, to make something like that work, have a smartphone,

438
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 3: be able to understand base Bluetooth pairing concepts, and to

439
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 3: have those two devices sinking. But yeah, it's very possible

440
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: for automated solutions to exist, and I mean you see

441
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 3: it with companies like Bonnet now they're already offering some

442
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 3: kind of dongle.

443
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to get my hands on.

444
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 3: It, but they do have a dongle that is essentially

445
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 3: able to automate the odomina being input it into their

446
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: app and then RUT being purchased from there. So yeah,

447
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: very very likely that you'll see those solutions becoming more mainstream.

448
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: But again, those dongles aren't necessarily very cheap to produce.

449
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 3: We looked into that quite heavily as well, and I

450
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: think the lowest that you could realistically produce an advanced

451
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 3: unit like that, or at least one to automate the

452
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 3: process to the point where a user would want to

453
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 3: buy one, you're probably looking at around anywhere from you know,

454
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 3: fifteen ish dollars per unit after shipping and everything to

455
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 3: get it into the country fifteen to twenty dollars, which

456
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 3: is probably not as cheap as you'd want it. If

457
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: you were to try and get the entire country on

458
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: board of a system like that. I think that's still

459
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 3: quite expensive after you consider the fact that you know,

460
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: companies are going to want to make a profit off

461
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: the actual device, and then if you are distributing it

462
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 3: on a nationwide scale, you're going to need to put

463
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 3: it in all the retail stores, and all retailers are

464
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: going to want to make their margins. So now the

465
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 3: device kind of comes out more around seventy eighty dollars.

466
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: And then whether you're going to get the entire country

467
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 3: to be able to buy into a device like that

468
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: just for automation, I'm not convinced. I'm sure you get it.

469
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure you get some There definitely be some people

470
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: who are interested in something like that, but for the

471
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: whole something that affects all New Zealanders, I'm not sure

472
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: that that price point is actually realistic.

473
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: On rock Herb, you list dozens of organizations that you're

474
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: tracking in the rock market. Are there any emerging leaders

475
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: or obvious players at the moment. We've talked about e Road,

476
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: which does a lot of fleet tracking, you know very

477
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: well established a listed company in New Zealand. They'll be

478
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: looking at this with great interests. Are there any others

479
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: that you think are obvious players that will be looking

480
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: to get in on this.

481
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean one, to be honest with you, the

482
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 3: big unknown one is definitely the AA. What's the AA

483
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 3: going to do? I mean they serve one point they

484
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 3: have one point eight million members. It's the most logical,

485
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: low friction point for users to be able to interact

486
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: with RUCK. I mean many, there's AA stations all over

487
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: the country. However, their kind of stance on it as

488
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: they support it. But the solutions and we've actually talked

489
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: to a few people and their team about potential solutions

490
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 3: that could be offered, is they're considering options so really

491
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 3: quite broad and quite vague. We don't know what their

492
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: stance is going to be, but I'd say definitely they

493
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: are kind of the biggest wildcard here along with the

494
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 3: fuel chains, how they're going to react and what they're

495
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: going to do, because naturally, now RUCK becomes a competing

496
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: point of interest for all of the fuel chain industry,

497
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: and they're already touching drivers at the fuel service points.

498
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: So I don't see why there couldn't be a solution

499
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 3: that's offered so that people can buy it through through

500
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 3: the fuel chains already where they're already visiting to fill

501
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: up from fuel because the demand for fuels not going anywhere,

502
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: and we actually have talked to them about potential solutions

503
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 3: in the long term because we're interested in competing in

504
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: the retail space in the future, but once we see

505
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 3: how the market shapes up. But yeah, just talking to

506
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: these companies and it seems that a lot of them

507
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: are either quite tight lipped about what they're doing or

508
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: are still just considering options and want to kind of

509
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: wait until a little bit later down the line where

510
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 3: they can see what the market's looking like. I'll say

511
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 3: the most important dates I think are so next year

512
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: some time. I think it's expected around July is when

513
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 3: you're going to see the digitization of the system. So

514
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: that's when we're getting rid of paper labels and n

515
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 3: z TA is potentially taking that step back, although even

516
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: that's up for debate now. I saw that a few

517
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: people had submitted to the Select Committee about concerns that

518
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: NZTA may still be around, as the legislation that they

519
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: put through Parliament gave NZTA the ability to appoint itself

520
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 3: as a rock retailer, and some of the organizations asked

521
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 3: NZNTA about whether they would continue retailing ruck in the future,

522
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: and well, NZTA said that they don't they don't plan

523
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 3: to expand their current ruck capabilities beyond what it already is.

524
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: So I mean, I guess there's kind of two scenarios there.

525
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: One n ZITA continues retailing as they currently are, but

526
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: if you think about the system kind of being expanded

527
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 3: times for from what it is now, they would not

528
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: be able to handle that demand. So the private sector

529
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 3: comes in and just helps them a little bit, or

530
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: they are essentially and this is my interpretation of the legislation,

531
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 3: but again we just won't know until we make a

532
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: comment on it, is that they are the provider of

533
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 3: last resort because I guess in a private, a fully

534
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: private run market, you do have the possibility. I'm not

535
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: saying it would be very common, but for whatever reason,

536
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: private providers aren't interested in doing business with you, then

537
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: what do you do. You can't really have a system

538
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: that that has a loophole like that, So I assume

539
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 3: that that NZTA plan to say the provider of last resort.

540
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: But yeah, there's a few emerging companies. I'd say one

541
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 3: of the interesting ones would definitely be seeing what vin

542
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 3: Z and VTNZ do when it comes to the ruck

543
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: space as well. As Bonnet limiteds also a reasonably new

544
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: entrant to the market. And then of course you've got

545
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: the international companies as well. I mean, we've spoken to

546
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: a few Australian telematics We've spoken to some European telematics

547
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 3: companies too that have talked broadly about being interested in

548
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 3: the ROCK space. But I suspect that they are more

549
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: interested in the larger changes, which is also tolling and

550
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: the kind of privatization of certain roads that foundation works

551
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: being set alongside the Rock bill. So I suspect a

552
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 3: lot of international companies will be interested, but perhaps not

553
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: so much around the rock retailing side.

554
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, just on the retailing side, I guess it is

555
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: a big opportunity. You mentioned AA. Any insurance company or

556
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: even a bank that you're interacting with their app on

557
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: a regular basis, they might not be particularly interested in RAI.

558
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: I cannot see any need to be made out of it.

559
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: But it's just engaging you in that app experience once

560
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: or twice a year, which is going to potentially hook

561
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: you into their other services as well.

562
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: It can become quite a complementary product and something that

563
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: can boost revenue and also bring customers in one of

564
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: the conversations, and the reason I actually haven't brought it

565
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: up is because it's definitely still quite in the early stages.

566
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: That we're developing is a ruck pass system, so a

567
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: card system, and we essentially have we're in early stage

568
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 3: conversations with some of the big retailers, all the payment

569
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: networks that operate across your small dairies in New Zealand,

570
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: and our understanding of it is that we want to

571
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: still allow people to be able to do over the

572
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: counter cash purchases if they choose, and we want to

573
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: make that accessible to potentially remote communities, potentially non tex

574
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: savvy communities. I mean a lot of us, I think

575
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: take it for granted that we can just download an

576
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: app and basically do anything on our smartphones. But when

577
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: you're talking about the entire New Zealand market, I'm sure

578
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: there's people who are not comfortable with doing things even

579
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: like that and would rather stay to the physical channels.

580
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: So we're looking at a solution where someone could be

581
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: given a physical card and they can buy it from

582
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: any of these retail stores and they can essentially use

583
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: that that card is connected to their vehicle through a

584
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 3: back end system that's linked to nz TA and they

585
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 3: can essentially go into any store and top up in

586
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: any amount to add kilometers to their license or to

587
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 3: their vehicle's license. And that's a concept that we're working

588
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: on at the moment. It's called rock Pass. We do

589
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: have a landing site for it, but it's definitely in

590
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: the early stages, so I didn't want to spend too

591
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: much time talk about something that's in the early stages.

592
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: But over the counter solution we think is still going

593
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: to be an important part of the market despite a

594
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: lot of the kind of high tech digital solutions that

595
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: we see companies talking about.

596
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: It should definitely be from an accessibility and equity point

597
00:30:51,760 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: of view. Talked about road tolling and that sort of stuff.

598
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: Several of these exist around the country. They're probably going

599
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: to become more common, so it does sort of make

600
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: sense to marry those two things together. Where are we

601
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: at in the thinking around that?

602
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 3: So a lot of the overseas Telemantus companies, to be

603
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: honest with you, are really the only ones I've spoken

604
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: to who are super interested or at least super willing

605
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: to have the conversation about tolling and the privatization of roads.

606
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: In New Zealand.

607
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: Right now, it's still unclear how a system like that

608
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: would look in line with the RUCK system, but definitely

609
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: a lot of the overseas tolling companies are interested in

610
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: bringing in more higher technology solutions for RUCK under the

611
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: assumption that they will be able to be expanded to

612
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: tolling or congestion charging networks and things like that. So,

613
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: for example, a purely app based solution for RUCK, you

614
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: would struggle to somewhat bring that directly in line with

615
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: any kind of congestion tolling I mean, I mean you

616
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: might be able to do it. There's obviously GPS solutions

617
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: you can do in your but you would struggle to

618
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: essentially integrate that directly with a congestion system or a

619
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: tolling system that might come up in the future. Whether

620
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: if you have obed devices or on board telemannx devices,

621
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: they are a lot easier to integrate with any kind

622
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: of future congestion charging and really create quite a seamless

623
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: experience for the user.

624
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: The last but I really want to talk to you

625
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: about is your involvement in this. You've created this wonderful

626
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: resource rock Hub. You're a two man band in duned

627
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: and this is basically a startup venture for.

628
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: You, Great Risilous.

629
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: Anyone who's interested in RUCK should go to the website.

630
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: It's got a live tracker of all the money that's

631
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: coming in in terms of RUCK fees, but it's got

632
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: all of the legislation, policy documents, all the key players.

633
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: It's so comprehensive. I haven't really seen anything like this before.

634
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: What is the play here? How do you hope to

635
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: monetize this and be involved in the rock ecosystem?

636
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: Well, for us, the building of rock hub was to

637
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: kind of clear up a lot of confusion but also

638
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: understand from the public's perspective, whether is the most confusion

639
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: and what people are searching for the most in.

640
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: The rock space.

641
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: So we get a lot of analytics just naturally from

642
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 3: running the site about what people are most confused about,

643
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: what sections are they hovering over the most, what interests

644
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: them the most, And from that we hope to be

645
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: able to develop solutions that address the outskirts of the market.

646
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: I mean, we're not looking to compete head on with

647
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: some of the big technology companies, but we think that

648
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: undoubtedly as they chase the kind of middle market or

649
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: the biggest consumer segment that some audiences and some parts

650
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: of the consumer market, perhaps more remote parts, perhaps the

651
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: rural parts is definitely what we're looking at now will

652
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 3: end up being overlooked. So we plan ultimately to compete

653
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: in the retail space, but addressing perhaps some of those

654
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: more niche use case ones such as people who aren't

655
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: that comfortable with technology. People maybe some of the elderly

656
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: drivers or the elderly community that aren't that tech savvy

657
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: and that don't want to be doing using all these

658
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: high tech solutions or buying things to plug into their vehicle.

659
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: So ultimately, Rockhub for us has been a great resource

660
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: in understanding and we've had actually quite a few people

661
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 3: emailing us in with questions and things like that on the.

662
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: Upcoming RUCK changes.

663
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: The most common one, funnily enough, that we get at

664
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: the moment is about motorcycles. A lot of the motorcycle

665
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: communities seem to be very interested about what RUCK means

666
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: for for their vehicles, and the honest stance to that

667
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 3: has been we've asked the Ministry for more details on motorcycles,

668
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: but we assume that they'll just be included in the

669
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: category of all light vehicles. When that transition does happen,

670
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 3: but for us long term, Rockhub definitely probably will fade away.

671
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: To be completely honest with you, we think that long

672
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 3: term there's not necessarily going to be this interest in

673
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 3: the information about the industry, and we're not sure whether

674
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: it would be appropriate for us long term either to

675
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 3: kind of be giving out all this information or acting

676
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: as a neutral platform if we were competing in the

677
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 3: rock retail space. But for now, it's definitely serves the

678
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 3: purpose of just informing the public and helping the public

679
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: to understand what's coming, and also for us to understan

680
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: and where the public have questions, because right now, most

681
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: of the kind of data collection on where the public

682
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: are unsure of comes from social media forms or official

683
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: ministry programs that have been run. But often I think,

684
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 3: you know, even then, I saw a lot of people,

685
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 3: especially on some of the Facebook posts. I mean, you

686
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: see a lot of comments on things like that regardless,

687
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 3: but a lot of people had things to say.

688
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: Or about the ruck changes.

689
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 3: But when it came to the actual select committee where

690
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 3: people had the opportunity to submit, I think outside of

691
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: organizations that are participating in the rock space, I think

692
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 3: we saw about maybe two individuals that were actually came

693
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 3: and said their part for or against the rock bill.

694
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: So you know, people often have thoughts about it but

695
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: don't share it. So long term for us, how do

696
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: we plan to monetize it? Will we plan to ultimately

697
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: compete in the rock retail space eventually, and so we're

698
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: not We don't monetize rock cub in any way at

699
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: this change. It's more just market research for us and

700
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: to help us understand where there's some over accessibility areas

701
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 3: of the market.

702
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: Credit to you for sharing it all. It's as a journalist.

703
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: It's here to get such a rich source of information

704
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: about a complex topic and change that is going to

705
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: affit consumers. But we're the pair of you at in

706
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: your sort of entrepreneurial startup journey. Is this one of

707
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: a number of things you've got on to go.

708
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: In terms of the rock space where we're working on

709
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: future solutions in the rock space right now while Rock

710
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 3: Covers up. We kind of released rock cub because it

711
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: was part of well quite comprehensive, quite a comprehensive research

712
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: journey we had to do. But we decided to make

713
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 3: it public because we thought, well, you know, we've collected.

714
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: All this information.

715
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 3: The information is out there, why don't we just make

716
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 3: it publicly available so people can understand better and it

717
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 3: can serve a dual purpose that we can also understand

718
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: where people are confused too. So Rock is definitely the

719
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: space working in at the moment. We do have some

720
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: other ROCK style projects that we're working on, but it's

721
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: our first entrepreneurial venture right now. It's bootstraps, so there's

722
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 3: no external capital involved with at this point in time.

723
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 3: I previously work for deliver Easy, and so did my

724
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: co founder. We both he worked in the tech side

725
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: of things. I worked in the operation side of things,

726
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: so as the area coordinator for Dunedin, and it actually

727
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 3: is what inspired us to get into the ruck space.

728
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: I remember the day, I think it was August eighth,

729
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 3: that the rout changes were publicly announced, and I tell

730
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: you the number of emails slash texts that I got

731
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: from drivers that day about what the change meant for

732
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: them and how confused they were was unbelievable. It was unbelievable.

733
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: The volume of queries we were getting from from the

734
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: independent contract is about what the changes meant for them

735
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: as drivers, and naturally they would be curious as they're

736
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: the ones that are on the road the most in

737
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: this country. So from there, I remember the company kind

738
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: of entered at quite a research stage. This was Deliver Easy,

739
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 3: quite quite a research stage and to what the changes

740
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: actually meant, and it was basically deemed as we'll have

741
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: to wait and see, because it's all quite quite confusing

742
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: for us to go through all of these different government

743
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: websites and come to a conclusion, especially when often the

744
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 3: material on the websites is actually not very conclusive either.

745
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: So that kind of inspired us to get into the

746
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: RUCK space. And yeah, it started the research Jenny, which

747
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 3: we saw no harm in making public. And we think

748
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: as well that we want New Zealanders to be able

749
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: to have a choice. I personally am a big fan of

750
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: it becoming a utility style market where you know, right now,

751
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 3: I've got a number of different internet providers. If I

752
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 3: want to switch internet providers, I've got a number of

753
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 3: different power provider options, same with gas providers. And I

754
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 3: think it would be beneficial for New Zealanders to have

755
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: a market like that rather than kind of an oligopoly

756
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: or even a monopoly style market. And the only way

757
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 3: that's going to happen is if we have a competitive market,

758
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 3: and the only way we're going to get a competitive

759
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: market is if there's enough information out there that also,

760
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 3: you know, hopefully new companies will compete. We've you know,

761
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 3: started rock Club with the hope as well that there

762
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: are young innovative teams out there as well, or new

763
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: companies or companies that hadn't considered entering the rock space

764
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: because perhaps it was too ambiguous for them, that will

765
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: be able to go through rotcarb and kind of look

766
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: at who's in the industry, look at what other people

767
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: are doing, look at all the information, have all the

768
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: facts there and be able to enter the market and

769
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: come up with innovative solutions so that we actually end

770
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: up with an innovative market rather than just kind of

771
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 3: an oligopoly reproducing new app updates once every couple of

772
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 3: years and playing it off as a innovation. Hopefully we

773
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: do actually get innovative systems to come out of it.

774
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: So that's the goal for us, and of course we're

775
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 3: there to make a profit as well ultimately in the

776
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: retail market, but our target audience is definitely around helping

777
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: the less accessible and the overlook segments.

778
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: Of the market.

779
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: And for us to be able to do that, we

780
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 3: need to first kind of understand where the bulk of

781
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: the investment from incumbents is going and look where we

782
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 3: can enter on the outskirts.

783
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: Well good on you, it's a great mission. And how

784
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: do you think it's going to play out? Do you

785
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: think we've got it within us, our industry and waka

786
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: kotahi and the like to make this a smooth transition

787
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: and six ers?

788
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: I do. I am optimistic for the system. I will

789
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 3: say that I'm optimistic that we will have an efficient

790
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: system where people were able to choose from a number

791
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: of different providers and they're able to get good, efficient service.

792
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: Whether this is cheaper, I'm still I'm not completely sold

793
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: on that. I think that the mechanics of the payment

794
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: provider sector is just it's a tricky beast to overcome,

795
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: and so any New Zealand companies in the fintech space

796
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: that are working around becoming a payment provider, you know,

797
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 3: would love some input there. But for now, I'm optimistic

798
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: that it will save New Zealand as money. But undoubtedly

799
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: even if it doesn't, even if it ends up being

800
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: slightly more expensive, which I know is no small fleet

801
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: for some people right now, I think that it is

802
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 3: ultimately a fairer system than where we are now. Right now,

803
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: those people who don't have the latest and greatest vehicles

804
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: or the most fuel efficient vehicles are ultimately subsidizing people

805
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 3: that are driving very modern, fuel efficient vehicles. And I

806
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: don't think that's right either. I think that a rock

807
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: system is generally fairer as a concept. And I have

808
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: faith in New Zealand as well and the private sector.

809
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: I do have faith in them, you know, I've bashed

810
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: them a little bit today, but I do have faith

811
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 3: in them to be able to pull it off and

812
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 3: to be able to pull off something fair. But I

813
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 3: just think that I'm skeptical, and on the pricing side

814
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 3: of it, I'm skeptical whether it will be cheaper for people,

815
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 3: which again, that was kind of the idea that the

816
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 3: government or the Ministry of Transport at least to talk

817
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: about when he first talked about the changes, that it

818
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: would save a portion of the driver's money. And I'm

819
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 3: just I'm not too convinced on that.

820
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: But no, no.

821
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: Only time will well yeah, exactly, and it's coming up quick.

822
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: I mean, this has got to be in place by

823
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: early twenty twenty seven.

824
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's all going to be in place by

825
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven, which I think twenty twenty seven is

826
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: the time to watch because that's kind of the test

827
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: in a way. You've got about you've got a million

828
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: to one point five million vehicles ish that will suddenly

829
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: digitize and the private sector will get involved there. You

830
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 3: don't yet have all light vehicles in the system. That

831
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: will happen sometime in twenty twenty eight, and so I

832
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: think it will be a very important time for New

833
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 3: Zealanders to be watching, even if it doesn't affect them yet.

834
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: You know, I encourage people to watch it and see

835
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: how that system's working because ultimately it's the system that's

836
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: going to carry through to everybody, and if there's a

837
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: time to fix it or make things right, it's going

838
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 3: to be in that twenty twenty seven period.

839
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for rock Hub, good luck with

840
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: your own rock retail aspirations, and Adam, thanks so much

841
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: for coming on, the Business of Tech.

842
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, Peter, appreciate it.

843
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Adam Johnston for coming on. I'll

844
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: put a link to rock Hub in the show notes.

845
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: Hopefully this will be a smooth transition and make a

846
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 1: bureaucratic payment process something that's easy and simple and doesn't

847
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: see us actually pay more for forking out to the

848
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: government to help keep our roads maintained. That's it for

849
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: this week's episode. If you liked it, share it with

850
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: a friend. We're streaming on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple, or wherever

851
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'll catch you next Thursday for

852
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: another episode of the Business of Tech.