1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: The huddle with New Zealand Southerby's International Realty, local and 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: global exposure like no other. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Jordan Williams Taxpayer Union and Mike Monroe, former chief of 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: Staff to just send our doners with us. Now, hello 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: you too, to Heather Mike, you were around in the 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. 7 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 3: How did this happen? 8 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 4: I sure was. I can move my kids in the 9 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 4: nineteen nineties complaining about n CEA. 10 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 3: Oh well, I was talking. 11 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: No, I'm talking about the cup of tea at the hairdresser. 12 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: Were you around in Parliament at that stage? 13 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 3: Did you witness? Can you tell us which MP thought 14 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 3: this was a great idea? 15 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 4: Oh no, I can't. The memory is faded on that one. 16 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 3: Okay. 17 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 5: So I wasn't so phonically challenging those days. 18 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 4: I might have taken more notice, but I don't know. 19 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 3: Now, Jordan, did you ever work with Nicky K? 20 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 4: No? I didn't. 21 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 6: The media release today from the Taxpayers Union was rightly 22 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 6: from David Farrer, who was very close to NICKI. It's 23 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 6: extraordinary that she's that mitt A piers Uniw was terminal 24 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 6: since twenty sixteen and has continued to work away. It 25 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 6: certainly puts in context slightly differently when she stepped up 26 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 6: to be depputy leader that, you know, knowing it clearly 27 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 6: wasn't for personal ambition. 28 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely does. 29 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: What do you reckon? 30 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 3: What do you reckon? 31 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Mike? 32 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 3: It was that made her so special that she was 33 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: able to I mean, it's quite an extraordinary thing to 34 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 3: be able to say that you beat Jacinda Ardoun twice 35 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 3: and kept her out of an electorate like Auckland Central. 36 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: What did she have? 37 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 5: Yeah, she was somebody who stood out from the back, 38 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 5: and she was in that sort of top tier of 39 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 5: you know, high achievers who got into cabinet pretty quickly. 40 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 5: But I think what maybe helps explain it was something 41 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 5: to Cinda ar Dune said today in a social post, 42 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 5: and she said that one great thing about Nicki Kay 43 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 5: was that she would judge whether an idea was good 44 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 5: or bad or and different based on her values rather 45 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 5: than just politics. Yeah, and that's a really rare that's 46 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 5: a rare thing in politics. We don't see that very often. 47 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 5: The numbers of people who you could apply that description to, 48 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 5: you know, you can count on the fingers of one hand. 49 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 5: And I think maybe that's where she was something a 50 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 5: bit different. 51 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, is that a fair point, Jordan, Like parliamentarians are 52 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: whipped so much right now to be like, if you 53 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: belong to the National Party, you will do all the 54 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: following things and think like a National Party MP, and 55 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: if you belong to the Greens and blah blah blah, 56 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 3: and maybe actually there is some benefit in being unwhipped. 57 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I can think of an example where, 58 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 6: for example, she was allowed to cross the floor on 59 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 6: an issue that's right, was something to do with Wahiki Island, 60 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 6: or there was a particular issue was it was a 61 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 6: great barrier, mine, a great barrier. Sorry, I'm quite right, Mike. 62 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 6: So you know, maybe one of her strengths was that 63 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 6: sort of old fashioned electric MP. 64 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 3: Now, Mike, you mentioned n ce A. Would you get 65 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 3: rid of n c A. 66 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, look as turning into a horror show, m 67 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 4: c A. There's just far. 68 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 5: Too many inconsistencies, and you know, and there's great inconsistencies 69 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 5: and how schools are handling it, and a lot of 70 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 5: schools have already dropped it. And look, this is our 71 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 5: national qualification and it's got to be consistent across the 72 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 5: whole country because kids changed us for all sorts of reasons. 73 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 5: Families move towns and whatever. People move suburbs, and so 74 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 5: you can't have a situation where you where the kids 75 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 5: are going into a different setup every time they change schools. 76 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 5: So you're getting that consistency is critical, and the number 77 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 5: of schools now opting out tells me they've really got 78 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 5: to go back right to the start and sort of 79 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 5: do a really thorough ordered of it. 80 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you reckon, Jordan? 81 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 6: What first got me into politics was I was the 82 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 6: guineap a year for NCA twenty five years ago. It 83 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 6: was this and ge that, and frankly Trevor Mallard should 84 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 6: hang his head in shame. I recall that this was 85 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 6: totally predictable. The whole purpose of a national qualification is 86 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 6: that it equals playing field, doesn't matter if you go 87 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 6: what school you went to. It was that it meant 88 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 6: something and to see rating is in and reporting that. 89 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 6: Now the blob acknowledge that Level one difficulty varies between 90 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 6: subjects and skills. Will no s Sherlock remember the Cambridge 91 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 6: And this was literally when my fifth form year the Cambridge. 92 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 6: We're getting credits for picking up rubbish and if you 93 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 6: great went to Cambridge High school. You know that that 94 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 6: didn't mean as much. The whole point of it was was, 95 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 6: you know, so it is going to private school. I 96 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 6: also did Cambridge Math in the same year. I did 97 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 6: school See in the fourth form, and then Guinnea Pig 98 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 6: first the year n CEA in the fifth form, and 99 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 6: so it wasn't just dumbing down. And I think that 100 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 6: the reason we don't do the international qualifications is it 101 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 6: would show up just how far behind New Zealand. 102 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: Is have fallen in the last twenty five years. Okay, 103 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: we'll take a break with these two guys. Come back 104 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: and just right, you're back of the huddle. Jordan Williams, 105 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: Mike Monroe. Mike, what do you think Labour's going to do? 106 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: Are they going to pick the capital gains tax this weekend? 107 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 4: Yeah? 108 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 5: I think we're on a inevitable sort of course here, Heather. 109 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 5: After Labor got booted out last year, one of the 110 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 5: big gripes Labor people had right across the country was 111 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 5: that the capital gains tax had been mixed by two 112 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 5: Prime ministers, both just Sindra Ardern and Hipkins had their 113 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 5: reasons for putting that off the agenda, and that's been 114 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 5: part of the mix for labor people for a long 115 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 5: time and since the election, a lot of work's been 116 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 5: going on, a lot of talks been going on, and 117 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 5: they're getting up ahead of steam on this, and there 118 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 5: is going to be a capital gains tax of some form. 119 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 5: But my concern is is that that they can't do 120 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 5: it sort of alone. I mean, every tax has got 121 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 5: its trade offs and costs and you know, inefficiencies, and 122 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 5: it's got to be part of a change and mixed. 123 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 5: It has to be a part of a change to 124 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 5: the mix of taxes. There's got to be a sort 125 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 5: of consolidated package of tax change and capital gains will 126 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 5: be part of that. But it's going to take a 127 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 5: little while yet before they get to that point of 128 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 5: laying out that plan, at least another year. 129 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I mean I'm interested to see what a 130 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: complete package is going to look like, Jordan. But if 131 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: they just go for the capital gains tax, I'm all 132 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 2: for that, because then they just don't get elected cool by. 133 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 6: Mean, Paul Mike's been drinking the radio and New Zealand 134 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 6: kool aid on capital gains tax. I think it's a 135 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 6: real shame actually that we have our opposition major opposition 136 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 6: party that is going into its first year conference having 137 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 6: been booted out, and instead of really looking at the 138 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 6: fundamental questions, what makes New Zealand more prosperous, how do 139 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 6: we stop this sort of decline of our public services, 140 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera, they are going in with a 141 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 6: choice between do you want a wealth tax or do 142 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 6: you want a keep of gains tax. That's literally the 143 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 6: choice to entire Texas this way this weekend. But what 144 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 6: I find so frustrating about this debate is the way 145 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 6: to put aside the way that our n zet asked, 146 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 6: you know, do you want more taxes on X, Y Z, 147 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 6: and then added them all together and said this is 148 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 6: the number one, the capital gains tax. But the fundamental 149 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 6: problem economic story of my lifetime is New Zealand is 150 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 6: low wages, low productivity because we're undercapitalized. Yes, that you 151 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 6: would tax that very thing, Dren's is crazy. 152 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: Your argument is you need to get capital into the country, 153 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: so don't put a capital gains tax on the. 154 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 6: The problem is, and this is the fundamental dishonesty of 155 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 6: Chris Hipkins. Yes, he says, oh, it's it's to fix 156 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 6: the housing prices because is so much money. There is 157 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 6: too much money going into into housing and not into 158 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 6: productive assets. But any capital gains text has been proposed 159 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 6: in this country has excluded the family home. You're making 160 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 6: the very problem and white anti New Zealanders or gas 161 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 6: light in them rather saying will have the exact opposite effect. 162 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 5: Mike, Now, Jordan, you're out of date. Hip can stop 163 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 5: saying that a long time ago. 164 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: This is about the cost you would Is he going 165 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: to text the family home with inequality? 166 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: Mike? Is he going to text the family home? 167 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 4: No doubt. 168 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 5: The problem that's the problems text is that straight away 169 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 5: you start talking about some exemptions and objections and compromises. 170 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 5: I mean, the capital gains text can be manipulated in 171 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 5: many ways. And that's why I say it's about the 172 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 5: mix of taxes. You're going to do that, You're going 173 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 5: have to move elsewhere. 174 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 6: There is a fundamental shift there though, because for a 175 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 6: generation we've had a approach whereby the tax system is 176 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 6: to raise the necessary revenue at least possible costs, meaning 177 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 6: the least possible economic distortions. However, it's now been used 178 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 6: by labor, going back to a nineteen seventies mode of 179 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 6: we use our tax system to redistribute, Yes, because that's 180 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 6: that and under our the approach we've taken for successive 181 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 6: taxing working groups is the that is on the spending 182 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 6: side of well. Often Labour's rhetoric but not in its actions. 183 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 6: Here seems to actually be a real shift or frankly 184 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 6: a shift to the left. Not just in New Zealand Labor, 185 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 6: but and you know we're seeing the same in the UK. 186 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 5: It'll be nice to have a point of difference between 187 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 5: the major parties on such a key thing, don't you think. 188 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 5: I mean, I think in so many areas these days 189 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 5: they sort of shadow each other. 190 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 6: I think you want to see in Zealand to be 191 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 6: poor for your boots. 192 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 4: And catch that go a recipe. 193 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 6: If he's yelling to be poorer for your boots, you 194 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 6: know your taxing the very thing that we need for 195 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 6: high wages, for better standards of living. 196 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 4: Well, not doing anything as a recipe to be unfairer. 197 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 4: And what do you think that's to be addressed? 198 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: Better to be poor and fair that some of us 199 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: than some of us be rich and it be unfair. 200 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: All right, We're going to leave it there, guys. I 201 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: really appreciate the pair of you. 202 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I wanted to talk to you 203 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 3: about the post, but we'll leave it for another day 204 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 3: of going heaps of text. 205 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 6: Anyway, I'll send you a letter. 206 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: I'll see it on the other side of the year. 207 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: Jordan Williams, Mike monrahudle this 208 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: Evening for more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live 209 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or 210 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.