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Speaker 1: A bit of angst around the move by the government

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Speaker 1: yesterday and what they call this heated tobacco products. They're

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Speaker 1: cutting the excise text by fifty percent. The theory is

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Speaker 1: they want to make vaping more attractive as a smoking cessation,

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Speaker 1: till the action for smoke for Your twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: director Ben Newden's we there's been morning.

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Speaker 2: To you, Good morning.

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Speaker 1: Isn't vaping a cessation tall or if we suddenly decided

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Speaker 1: it's not.

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Speaker 2: Vaping has been incredibly successful for tens different hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of people in New Zealand to stop smoking. The

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Speaker 2: products that the ministers have the exercise tax, and they're

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Speaker 2: not actually vapes. What they are is that they are

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Speaker 2: sort of tightly packed cartridges of tobacco that go into

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Speaker 2: a device that heats them. So there's somewhere between cigarettes

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Speaker 2: and vaping, probably near a vaping in terms of much

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Speaker 2: less harmful, being much less harmful than smoking. But they

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Speaker 2: are actually a tobacco product.

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Speaker 1: So you can understand the logic though to a degree,

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Speaker 1: can't you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know in it's argue that actually

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Speaker 2: these sorts of products may well and probably do have

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Speaker 2: a place in terms of helping people who smoke to

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Speaker 2: stop smoking or to substantially to reduce their harm, particularly

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Speaker 2: those people who smoke for a really long time and

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Speaker 2: struggling to quit. Vaping is not working for them, and

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Speaker 2: so you know, there's absolutely a logic and providing some

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Speaker 2: kind of financial incentive for people to switch to them

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Speaker 2: and reduce their harm and stop smoking, because.

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Speaker 1: I can't work out what all the angsters about unless

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Speaker 1: they're going back to that whole you know, mooreal chest

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Speaker 1: not the head when Cases Costello came in, she's allegiedly

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Speaker 1: too close to the tobacco and this is all big

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Speaker 1: scandal and stuff like that. But if you're helping people,

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Speaker 1: you're helping people, what else do you want to do

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Speaker 1: for goodness sake?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's right, and I think the challenge

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Speaker 2: for many people is that there's this kind of ethical

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Speaker 2: dilemma that the tobacco industry make these products when people

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Speaker 2: have spent careers, including myself, fighting this industry, that it's

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Speaker 2: not as simple as it used to be. And actually

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Speaker 2: the industry is if we're forcing it to transform and

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Speaker 2: make safer products and less harmful product perhaps there is

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Speaker 2: a place for theirs to help people stop smoking, and

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Speaker 2: if we can do it in a way which means

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Speaker 2: that they're getting to the people they're going to help

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Speaker 2: and keeping them at the hands of people that we

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Speaker 2: don't want to use them, then I think we need

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Speaker 2: to start thinking in a more complex way about how

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Speaker 2: we allow people to access such things.

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Speaker 1: Very well said Ben, You have a good week in

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Speaker 1: Ben Uden, Who's the action for Smoke Free twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five directum For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, listen

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