1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Now as predicted. Marsden Point Oil Refinery has become a 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: topic of some debate since the Iran air strikes. It 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: closed in April twenty twenty two, means we now have 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: to rely totally on important refined fuels, and that has 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: left us vulnerable to fuel shortages as a result of 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: the Iran war. There have been requests for us to 7 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: get Meghan Woods on because Megan Woods was the minister 8 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: when the place shut down, and Meghan is with us now. Meghan, Hello, 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: hi Heather. Now is it is it something you regret 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: allowing it to shut down while you were minister? 11 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing, it wasn't a case 12 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: of the government allowing this to shut down. I think 13 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: we need to be really clear that the company made 14 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: a commercial decision to shut down. The government isn't in 15 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 2: the business of forcing private companies to keep trading it was, 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: so any suggestion that this was something the government allowed 17 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: to do it, I think is something that's not really 18 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: rooted in the facts. What happened was the a decision 19 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: was made, a commercial decision was made when we were 20 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: in government and we had to have a look about 21 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: how we were going to prepere New Zealand to make 22 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: sure that we did have security when we no longer 23 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: had a commercial refinery operating. 24 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: Okay, is it not the case that they approached you 25 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: before they shut it down and sought your permission to 26 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: do it? It was it? It relied on you guys 27 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: saying yep, it's okay. And if you said the open 28 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: is that not the case? 29 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: No, that's not the case. And I think if you 30 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: have a look at the paper that I took to 31 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: Kebnet so that we as a whole of government were 32 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: across what was happening. Was I made it really clear 33 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: that the company hadn't asked for any money. It hadn't 34 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: asked for any government support to keep operating. The paper 35 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: I took to Kebnet laid out what our options there's 36 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: a country was companies don't have to ask government's permissions 37 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: to shut down. 38 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: No, I know that. Is it the case also that 39 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: you considered underwriting it for ten years and decided not to. 40 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: What happened when I took that paper to Kebnet and 41 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: beren buying that Cadnet paper. Also, it's really clear that 42 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: the company hadn't for any money. Was here are some 43 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: options we could look at as a government, we could 44 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: go back to them and see if they're open to 45 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: discussing an underwrite for teen years, or we can have 46 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: a look at what we need to do to make 47 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: sure that we have the same fuel security in New Zealand. 48 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: And as a government made the decision that actually, because 49 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: of the way that Marsden was set up, that it 50 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: didn't refine our own crude oil, that it only refined 51 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: crude oil that was brought in from overseas. That if 52 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: you had a problem getting crude into the country, you 53 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: were also going to have a problem getting refined product 54 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: into the country. So we we made the decision to 55 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: go for increasing the stockholding. So that's when we're hearing 56 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: the reporting over the last few days of how many 57 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: days perpetual, that's because our government introduced minimum stockholding. That 58 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: government's increased it. 59 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: Basically, you decided as a government, you considered keeping it 60 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: open for ten years by underwriting it, and you decided 61 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: not to. 62 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: Yes, no, that's not the case, Heather, No, it's not 63 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: the case. One of the options in the cabinet paper 64 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: was whether we'd go back to the company and have 65 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: a discussion if they were even open to that no 66 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: discussions had been had with the commercial operation at that stage. 67 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: This was my responsibility as a minister to canvas all 68 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: the options. So you can't say that it was we 69 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: considered whether or not we're to underwrite it for ten years, 70 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: because we don't even know if that was a live option. 71 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: No discussions had been had with the company at that stag. 72 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: But it is true. We'll just deal with the facts here. 73 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: It is true that Cabinet had considered the possibility of 74 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: trying to save the refinery by underwriting the refinery for 75 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: a period of up to ten years and decided not 76 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: to follow through on that. 77 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's exactly what I was saying. Heither that 78 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: what we considered was our fueld security. That our response. 79 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: You were very quick to shut down what I asked 80 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: you about approval, But when I'm asking you a straightforward question, 81 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: you're not prepared to admit to it, which brings us 82 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: to the next month how much hold on? But how 83 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: much would it have cost you to underwrite it for 84 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: ten years? 85 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: Well, we never got to that stage because the decision 86 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: was made to instead make sure that New Zealand's Skiell 87 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: security was there. What the advice we got was even 88 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: if we went back and we said we'll underwrite you 89 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: for ten years, if we're in a situation where global 90 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: shipping is shut down, that we would not be getting 91 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: crewed there. I think there's a bit of a fen. 92 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: Why Why is that the only option? Why is global 93 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: shipping shutting down the only possible scenario? Well, the key 94 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: that's not what we're dealing with right now, is it. 95 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: Well, it is in terms of global ships being able 96 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: to get through the straits of Hermos. 97 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: That's not a shutdown of shipping. The problem is, Megan, 98 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: we had a former minute manager of the place on 99 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: on Friday and what he said is what you guys 100 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: have screwed us by not keeping it open for ten years, 101 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: because right now we have only got a very limited 102 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: number of places we can get refined oil from because 103 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: of your decision. Had we kept it open and refined 104 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: oil ourselves, we had a thousand places we could have 105 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: got crude oil from. Do you accept that? 106 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: But they all needed to largely go through the Straits 107 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: of Homos. I think one of the critical points here 108 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: that at that. 109 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: Moment they can go together. They're trying to ship it 110 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: to their west coast and get around the Horn of Africa, right, 111 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: So there are about the places to get it. 112 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: From heather and that's where the refineries that we buy 113 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: our refined products will get it from. I think one 114 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: of the things the critical question at the moment is 115 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 2: do we have a shortage of places in Asia Pacific 116 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: that can refine oil? The answer is no. Where the 117 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 2: tightnesses and where there is a shortage is actually getting 118 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: hands on crude. And if we still had Marsden open, 119 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: that would be exactly the same situation. Now. Shane Jones 120 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: commissioned a report and his report told him exactly the 121 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: same thing. So Shane was given an option a year 122 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: or so ago, said if you're really worried about this, 123 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 2: you can spend billions of dollars and you can set 124 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: up a new refinery in Taranaki. Now he hasn't proceeded 125 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: with that because what his report told him is that 126 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: did not give New Zealand any extra energy security. So 127 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: I think that we need to look at the facts 128 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: on this. There's a bit of a fantasy that Marsden 129 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: operated refining good old New Zealand crude oil. It didn't. 130 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: It couldn't refine out what we produced here. It relied 131 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: on crude being brought into the country and that's what 132 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: is constrained at the moment. 133 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: Is it true that they poured concrete down the pipe 134 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: so no one else could revitalize the place. 135 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: No, and that's been debunked as complete nonsense. 136 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: All right, Hey, thank you, Meghan, I appreciate your time. 137 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: That's Megan Woods, who is the minister in charge at 138 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: the time that the place shut down. 139 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to 140 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: news talks. 141 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 142 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.