WEBVTT - Why understanding your gut could be the key to a healthy life with Dr Will Bulsiewicz 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:14.080 Hi, I'm Fred Jeska Rudkin and I'm Louise Area. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.440 And this is season four of our New Zealand Herald 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:17.960 podcast The Little Thing. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.040 So good to have you with us. In this podcast, 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.040 we talk to experts and find out all the little 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:23.959 things you need to know to improve all areas of 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.680 your life. And look. In series one, we spoke to 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.680 Tim Spector. You may remember this about food our guts, 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:34.199 expanding our consumption of plants, and how our accessibility to 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.159 real food has diminished over the decades, at least in 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.400 Western society. And it keeps coming up. 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.960 Isn't it ye gut house the gut as the second 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.120 brain or is it the first brain? The gut's relationship 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.640 with our mental health, longevity, disease resistance, and it goes on. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.880 It isn't our intention to blind people with science and 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:55.880 have us too scared to have a French fine at 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:57.480 bee once in a while, because that would be a 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:57.840 bit sad. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.000 It would make me sad to Louise. Yeah. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.400 So look, as with everything we look at, we just 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.360 want to have a closer look at the health information 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.679 that keeps coming up over and over again. And this 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:09.280 is just one of those things. 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.480 So we're going to talk gut health, and in preparation, wheez, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.759 I did the blue Pooh test again because I'm really 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.320 keen to know try and get sort of a feeling 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:21.840 for the state of what my gut is in. And 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:23.920 this is something that we did when we spoke to 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.119 Tim Spector. You had good success. I didn't the first 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:29.920 time I did it, And can I just say the 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.479 second time around, it doesn't look this. Look I thing's 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.800 improved at all. One of the only tests ever failed. 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.440 I can't even I don't think I can even execute 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.720 this test properly because nothing ever seems to go blue. 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.360 It's like my body absorbs blue food coloring and it 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.360 just doesn't. So I'm seventy two days in ideally around 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.880 this between what is it but twenty hours hours? Oh god, 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.960 two days, Well, I think it will be seventy two days, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.600 seventy two hours, and there is no change. I do 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.560 not have blue after eating my two blue muffins. And 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.040 there were a lot of dye in those things, was there? 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:05.360 Yeah? 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.880 I think they were okay. And it's really concerning me 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.839 as well, because twenty nine hours is sort of around 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.880 a good time after eating the muffins where you're sorry 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.200 to talk about those folks. Your poo to turn blue 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.560 and nothing, and I'm really sick of looking at my poop. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.560 And I'm like, and I was like twenty one hours again, 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:25.560 so were you? Yeah? 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:27.400 And I told you, I told you I would be. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.639 Nothing much has changed there. I don't know whether that's 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:32.480 good or bad. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.280 I thought, because I've taken a lot of advice from 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.120 Lara Brydon, who was in our first episode this season, 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.520 and I've been sheltering from ultra processed food and alcohol 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.840 and sugar. Not entirely. I haven't cut these things out. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.040 I'm trying to be really realistic and create sort of 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.040 something which is sustainable. But I really did feel I 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:54.560 feel like I've been doing a lot of work on 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.160 my gut, and does your gut feel better? My gut 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:02.040 does feel better, and I do feel better. So but 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:03.960 really wouldn't worry too much. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.120 I think we all know what sets us off and 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.880 when we've upset the natural rhythm of our tummies. You know, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.840 for some people it's dairy, for other people it's coffee, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.560 could just be a rich meal. Yeah, that's right. And 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.720 I've probably been sheltering from those a little bit too. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.760 I'm quite intrigued to also know whether there's any impact. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.720 You know, there's a lot of challenges middle age. I'm 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:34.360 interested to know whether there's you know, how that how 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.920 the gut might be reacting to things. I mean, when 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.240 the estudents left the body that was yeah, all sorts 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.000 of things. Just is your aging Are there any changes 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:44.520 in there so we can sort of talk about the 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:46.640 I'm in an aging stage way too. 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:48.440 I do want to know that this is an area 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.800 where they are looking at women as a separate thing 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.120 to men. You know, we've talked a lot about a 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:55.600 lot of the research that's been done. It's been done 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.120 and meant so I'm interested to talk about that. And 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.320 we wanted to just touch on the other lovely thing 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.160 that comes up from time gas, whether you're. 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:08.160 Bare pin or farting. I mean, if you have a really. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.760 Really, really good diet filled with pulses and stuff, do 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.200 you start to just accept that you have to fart. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.320 I know a family who did it, and they just 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.600 were like, yes, we all fart all the time, but 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:18.640 we were already healthy. 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.080 I know that this is just a personal interest of 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.000 Yoursise You're just asking for a friend, right, definitely those 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:30.880 early morning runs that we go on. I'm also really 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:38.000 intrigued by the idea that we're all completely different and 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.920 all our guts and you know, like it's not a 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.200 one size fits all and we're not all the same 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:45.640 and things. I think that's really interesting. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.440 I think it's actually super important because we could accidentally 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.960 all of these fads or diets of way of eating 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.680 apply to the population, right and actually when we are 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.760 all individuals. And as far as I'm a fan of 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.480 pop pulation health, I think gets a lot done, but 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.840 we do kind of need to see if there are 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.680 little tweaks and things we can do for ourselves. 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:08.760 But also, just because your mate feels better not eating 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.120 dairy or not eating gluten doesn't mean you will. Absolutely 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.760 that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.720 So we're delighted to be joined by doctor Will Bolschwitz. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.800 He is a guest rentroler, just a passionate researcher and 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.919 an expert in digestive diseases and the gut, and he 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.279 works alongside to inspector at nutrition company Zoe as the 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.520 US medical director. Welcome, doctor, Well, thanks so much for 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:30.400 joining us today. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.320 Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:34.279 It's great to be here. 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:38.800 Well, I think most people are familiar with the gut microbiome, 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.200 but can you just start by giving us a quick 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.280 explanation as to what it is. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.480 Well, you know, Francesco, it's amazing to consider the statement 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:52.240 most people are familiar with the gut microbiome, because not 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.279 many years ago there was zero awareness even among the 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:00.200 medical community to what we're about to talk about. We've 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.840 come a long way to where now this is bordering 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.480 on a mainstream conversation that you may be having with 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:07.120 other people. 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.200 I love that. I'm very excited about that. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.400 So it's important for everyone to understand that there has 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.480 been this huge discovery that's taken place during the last 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.919 twenty years in science, and it's transforming the way that 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.120 we think about our own body as humans, and that 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.000 is the microbiome. So it turns out that we are 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.680 completely covered from the top of our head to the 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:35.159 tip of our toes with invisible microorganisms, bacteria, yeasts, these 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.120 things called our KaiA that are kind of my favorite. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:39.760 We can talk about that more if you want to. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.359 Sometimes parasites and it turns out believe it or not 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.800 many parasites are good for us. It sort of defies 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:51.440 our expectations. And so they're there all of those places 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.680 our skin, our nose, our mouth, but they're most concentrated 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.760 inside of the large intestine, which is the colon. And 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.920 in that place, just that place alone, your large intestine, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:11.080 you will find approximately thirty eight trillion micro organisms. Thirty 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:11.520 eight trillion. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.760 That's hard to get your hid around, Ryan. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.000 Oh, it's it's a you know, it's like trying to 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.480 understand the numbers from World War Two. It's like there's 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.200 just no way to sort of put that framework into 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.200 your brain. But let's break this down in a couple 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.960 of ways. First of all, let's imagine it's a beautiful 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.360 night and you look out up to the sky. You 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:38.000 see every single star that's in our galaxy. Okay, And 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.400 if I were to take all those stars and pull 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.040 them in and form them into a ball and insert 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.720 them into your margin, Testine, not you personally, Francesca, Please 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.160 don't feel weird about this. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.240 Or you either, at lease. This is just theory. It theory, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:54.720 all right. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.400 So I insert this ball full of stars, the entire 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.600 galaxy full of stars, into your rgin. Testine, I would 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.200 have to do this three hundred and eighty times to 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.520 call the number of microbes. Yeah, so you have three 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:12.520 hundred and eighty galaxies full of stars. And perhaps even 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.400 more shocking to me is that we only have about 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:25.000 thirty trillion human cells. So with total clarity, I can 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.360 say you are less than fifty percent human. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.160 That is so bond becerus. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.959 Wait though, so in amongst that number, are they viruses, bacteria, 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.600 and parasites and they're all getting along. 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.480 Well, they're not necessarily all getting along. But we're not 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.480 all getting along either, are we. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:42.400 We're not doing so well. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.160 Yeah, well so, and that's you know, it's kind of 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.280 interesting because it's a microcosm on what we see happening 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.800 on planet and Earth. It's a microcosm for other ecosystems. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.560 So what is happening inside of us is appropriate A 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.040 biologist would define this as an ecosystem them in the 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.480 same way that a person might look at, you know, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.120 a forest or the Great Barrier reef as an ecosystem. 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.600 So, and within an ecosystem. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.360 There are there are you know, sort of the ones 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.600 that are friendly that we love as humans. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.600 There are the ones that are a. 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.080 Bit malicious and we don't like so much. And what 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.520 ends up happening is they all fall into a balance. 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.800 And when that balance is healthy, you see the same 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.600 balance that you might see in a healthy ecosystem. I like, imagine, 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.320 imagine a city, and we want a city that is 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.400 low on crime and people who are getting along and 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.640 not too much traffic, right, and like, that's that would 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.840 be our ideal existence. But alternatively, when a city is failing, 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.000 then these problems start to emerge, and there's more crime, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.960 and there's gridlock and bad traffic, and there's pollution and 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:57.800 you know, and it's not kept clean and all these 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.640 types of things. Right, So, so we want to keep it 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.360 on the side of like thriving as opposed to the 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.320 side of failing. And there's terms that we use for this. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:13.720 So a thriving gut microbiome we would describe as u biosis, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:19.080 which means in balance. Or a failing microbiome, the term 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.480 that we would use is dys biosis. But you might 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.760 hear people characterize this on the internet as leaky gout 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:26.520 or something like this. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.040 Oh okay, yeah, I have heard that. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.520 Yeah, I'm a little bit concerned that the wellbeing of 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.720 our microbiome is in stat contrast to the human condition. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:42.400 Welliz, it's an interesting question because they cohabitate with us, 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.760 and when we think, you know, we love to tell 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.520 stories about evolution. Where did we come from? How did 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.880 we get here? What makes us human? 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:52.559 Right? 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:54.560 These are questions that we wrestle with all of us 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.960 and and they inform our biology. But there's something that's 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.040 been missing, which is the understanding that it was always 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:06.360 co evolution. We were never alone. We always had our partners. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.240 They might be invisible, we may not have been able 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.600 to see them, but they were there. They were outnumbering us. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.200 They were thirty eight trillion, And as we evolved through 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.959 these years to become the version of ourselves today, they 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.920 were there a part of it with us. So and 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.520 what ended up happening as a result of this is 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:25.920 I can tell you with total clarity as a medical 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:31.440 doctor that we grew to trust them because we gave 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:36.920 them very important responsibilities. We allowed them to be gatekeepers 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.640 for our nutrition that's our source of life, to interact 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.480 directly with our immune system that's inflammation, to have quite 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:53.319 a bit of control over our metabolism, to actually play 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.040 a role in the balance of our hormones, both men 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:01.880 and women, and to even communicate from the gut all 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.240 the way up to the brain and effect the way 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.080 we think our memory. So you take a step back 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:15.920 and you say, like, wow, in medical school, I separated 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.959 these things. I saw them all as separate. The metabolism 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.400 is different from inflammation, is different from our digestion, is 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:29.480 different from our brain and neurology or psychiatry. And now 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.520 what we see is there's this common thread, this command 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.840 center in the middle that is operated by these gut 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.600 microbes that's playing a central role in all of these pieces. 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:41.320 They're not different, They're connected. 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.360 It's so fascinating what you're describing here. Your term speak 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.640 to has said that this is the most exciting and 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.959 fast moving area of science today because we have been 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.560 making these big knowledge leaps. What you're talking about there, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.440 would that be the biggest thing that we've kind of 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.560 discovered in this field. 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:01.400 I think so. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.079 But I think that in science, when a new field emerges, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.000 you have to have the patience to allow it to mature. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.760 Allowed the science to mature, and so where we have 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.960 been for the first fifteen years. I mean, just to 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:21.080 put a historical context to what we're discussing here. Prior 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:26.199 to two thousand and five, we were using just culture plates. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.280 So culture plate for the listeners at home is like, hey, 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.520 if you were to take a bacteria and watch the 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.920 ecal I grow, that's how you see what kind of 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.800 bacteria are there. All right, that's an old technique. 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:41.120 I mean, I don't know how old it is, but 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.600 that is an old technique. 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.400 And what we were missing was some sort of technique 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.000 that would allow us access to these microbes inside of 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.280 us that do not grow on a culture plate. And 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.040 we discovered that around two thousand and five. Okay, And 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.920 the other thing that happened around that time is our 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.360 computers started to get more advanced. So people that are 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.120 our age, you know, because I'm in my mid forties, so. 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.640 We're sep joining us in your in your right. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:15.240 You're yeah, you are to your late thirties, right, sure, yeah, yeah, right. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.360 But compared to these Gen Z kids who are growing up, 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.680 they grew they're growing up with powerful computers. We didn't 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.800 grow up with powerful computers. We grew up before computers. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.280 I grew up before computers. In nineteen eighties, we didn't 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.880 really use computers. And so we needed the computers to 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.720 progress to a point that they could handle massive data. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.240 So the microbiome is massive data. And now we have 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.000 grown where our computers are able to keep up with this. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.840 Our computers can now handle multiple amounts of massive data, 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.000 meaning like big data sets of lots of people. And 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.880 the first fifteen years, Francesca, we spent just kind of 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.160 describing what we were seeing, What is this, what are 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.280 we seeing here? What happens if you have a disease ease? 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.720 What do we find in the microbiome? But now it's 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.320 an exciting time because we're moving past describing it and 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:14.360 we're moving into manipulating it for our advantage. And there's 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.360 many examples of where this is emerging. And it could 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.240 be the person who's listening to us or right now 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.440 who just wants to be healthier. Okay, we're going to 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.880 get into that. But it can also be the person 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:32.520 who's undergoing cancer therapy and they're now using something called immunotherapy, 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.600 which takes advantage of our own immune system to fight 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.680 the cancer. It's a different approach than chemo. Chemo has 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.360 attacked the cancer directly, and like all the other cells 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.000 kind of suffer too. Immunotherapy is empowered the immune system 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.480 and let the immune system attack it. And what we've 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.680 discovered is the gut microbiome plays a very important role 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.000 in that process and there's ways that you can use 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:57.760 that to your advantage. 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.080 I read, and I don't know if this is correct, Will, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.400 but I read that seventy percent of our immune system 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.280 lives in our gut microbiome. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.080 That is absolutely correct, and it's fascinating because you ask 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.680 a person where does your immune system live and they 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.440 probably would say your bone, marrow. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.560 I don't know, might say I don't know where I 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:16.960 thought it. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.560 Was then no, yeah, and Michael, lymph node, yeah right, 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.240 You might say a lymph node or your spleen. You 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.880 might say your spleen, right, And the answer is no, 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.560 none of those. The correct answer is your gut. Seventy 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.000 percent of your immune system resides within the wall your gut, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.760 and in fact, so close to these microbes that just 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.680 let me pretend for a moment that we pick up 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.000 our microscope and we take a look and we're zooming 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.120 in on this very very minute part of what's happening 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.120 inside of you, and what you would see is you 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.480 would see these microbes and then there's a single layer 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.480 of cells. We call it the epithelial layer, and it's 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.760 thinner than a fraction of a hair off the top 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:03.080 of your head. And the epithelial layer, single layer separates 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.600 those microbes from the immune system on the other side. 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.639 Seventy percent of the immune system is on the other side. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.680 That is crazy. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.840 Do you mind keeping that balances the part that's protecting 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:14.919 your immune system or. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.560 Yeah, these things end up released, These things end up 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.480 being completely intertwined. You can't separate them. Because let's go 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.600 back to the term I used, wiki gut. We could 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.320 do an entire hour on wiki gut. There's certainly there 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.040 are things that exist and the lore of the Internet 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.720 that I would not come on board and agree with, right, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.040 But here's what I do, like with clarity, agree with 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.520 is that this single layer of cells that I was 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:44.000 describing a moment ago, it's held together together by like 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.600 think of it like cement, all right, And that cement 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.600 is a protein called tight junction. And if you disrupt 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.399 that protein, then you create a hole between those cells. 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.600 It's like having a hole in the wall of a castle, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.320 and now things can sneak through. And that's what leaky 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.840 gut is and when things start to sneak through, that 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.480 could be the stuff from inside your intestine, it could 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:20.119 be pathogenic bacteria, and they start to go across this 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.440 barrier that was put in place to keep them out. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.200 They start to go across. That's not the end of 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.879 the world. But what that is is that is inflammation 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.520 because your immune system is forced to now step up 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.280 to protect you. So, Louise, if I were to describe 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.680 the layers of defense that we have, the first is 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.280 actually our gut microbes. The second is our gut barrier, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.680 and you have to get past those two. But when 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.040 you get past those two, you get to the third, 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.400 which is the immune system. And this process that we're 0:18:55.440 --> 0:19:02.520 describing creates chronic low grade inflammation. And that chronic low 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.479 grade inflammation is at the root of so many of 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:10.960 the epidemic diseases and health conditions that the Western world, 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.920 including New Zealand and Australia and US in the United States, 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.880 we are struggling with these things right now. 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.480 They're creating a real burden on the health system as well. 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.320 And I find it really interesting. So people who say, oh, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.680 I've got a grade immune system, I never get a cold. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.600 I never get the flu, but my raging arthritis, for example, 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.119 So the immune system is still not functioning optimally. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:39.840 Would you say the immune system within arthritis is clearly 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.440 being activated. And it depends on what we're talking about, 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.400 which type of arthritis, because there's a few types. So 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.399 one is rhumatoid arthritis, and rheumatoid arthritis is actually an 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.520 autoimmune health condition. That means that the immune system is 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:58.840 actually confused, right, and it's attacking your own body. Alternatively, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.440 there's osteoarthritis, and that's inflammatory too, but it's different. It's 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.240 not autoimmune, but it's still activation of the immune system 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.800 in the joint that's creating inflammation and then you feel. 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:09.840 It when you walk or whatever. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.720 It may be, okay, So these things are clear cut 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.480 manifestations of inflammation. And if a person has an autoimmune 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:21.879 disease like rheumatoid arthritis, without question, their immune system is 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.439 confused and it is struggling. So we know that with 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:29.560 clarity and wise, if you lift up the hood to 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.760 take a look at the engine, meaning the gut microbiome, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:33.919 if you were to take a look at what's happening 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.720 in the gut microbiome, but then the context of these diseases, 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.199 you would see that there's a damaged gut microbiome, there 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.240 is dys biosis. So, as I said before, the immune system, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.760 in our microbiome, they're interconnected. 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.040 It's hard to separate them. 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.000 So in inflammatory health conditions, it is expected that if 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.639 you look at the gut microbiome you will find dys biosis. 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:01.680 They're running in parallel and in tandem. Now, this concept 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.920 of like never getting sick and this kind of thing, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.080 it's a little bit hard for me to totally you know, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.040 understand exactly what's going on with this. Certainly you could 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:15.320 try to avoid being sick, right then, this is something 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.440 that we dealt with during the pandemic. And I would 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.600 make the argument that our immune system actually, like I'm 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.040 going to paint with a broadstroke, So I have to 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:26.760 be a little bit careful here, because like if I 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:28.760 were talking to an individual person, I might frame this 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.119 slightly different. But our immune system needs to be trained. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.960 Our immune system needs to the opportunity to practice and 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.680 be strong. So in a way, getting sick is good 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.320 for us because it allows our immune system to get 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.760 used to dealing with this, you know, infection. Clear it, 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.480 and now because it cleared it, your immune system actually 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.280 is stronger than when it started. And if we totally 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.879 avoid it, you know, if we live in a sterile world, 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:01.440 that's actually quite dangerous. 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.439 Coming back to if we wanted to be preventing of 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.639