1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hello, I am Paula Beuni and welcome to my New 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Zealand Herald podcast Ask Me Anything. 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: Now. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: One thing eye bleut in life is it's never too 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: late to learn something new. So on this podcast I 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: talk to people from all walks of life to hear 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: about how they got to where they are and get 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: some advice and guidance on some of life's biggest questions. 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: Today we're going to focus on leadership, in particular business 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: leadership with some advice were both established and start out CEOs. 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: My guest is Cassiobury founder and CEO, Rhiannon McKinnon. 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 2: Rannon is one of the youngest ever leaders of. 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: A New Zealand top ten wealth and investment organization when 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: she was appointed CEO of Kiwi Wealth inspired by the 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: mistakes she made which we've all got to be as 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: a brand new CEO, she is now CEO Coach of Sorts. 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: In his here this year, her wealth of knowledge ran 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: on Welcome and. 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much Paula for having me. 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: Oh it's great to have you here. Okay, quick fire questions. 21 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: If you could go to the pub with anybody your 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: live dead celebrity interesting, who would it be? Oh? 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 3: My goodness, let's say Taylor Swift. 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 4: I think she's amazing. I allowed to say that. Yeah, 25 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 4: I think she's such an incredible feminist. And there were 26 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 4: things that she does, you know, in the background, for 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: you know, her dancers, and for women, and for the 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 4: healthcare she provides. 29 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: I just think, wow, what a what a career. 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 2: And for girls. 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: Right, you know you love that that age when you're 32 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: so susceptible of that sort of eleven twelve thirteen. Okay, 33 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm fifty five and I listened to her music. But 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean about those ones that are 35 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: just wanting to listen more to Taylor than they will 36 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: to you. 37 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, exactly. 38 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 4: I've got a ten a nine year old daughter, and 39 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 4: so they love her, and I just think, yeah, what 40 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 4: a great sort of role mode on an example. 41 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: I like that, And what would the drink of choice be? 42 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 4: You see, I I've sort of been I've been readrinking 43 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 4: my Cosmopolitans of Youth recently. When I was in my 44 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 4: early twenties in London, I thought that was very sophisticated, 45 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 4: and now I'm sort of getting nostalgic, kind of started 46 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: drinking them again. 47 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: Ah, shout out to my listeners. I've gone back to 48 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: my passion fruit mehitos again. I do them when I've 49 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: got particularly when i've got children, because you make a 50 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: you obviously make a non alcoholic version, and they feel 51 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: like they're getting an absolute treat. Yet it's really just 52 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: passion fruit soda, water and a bit of bit of sugar. Really, 53 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: you're not filling them full of awful phizzy and they feel. 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: Like they're having a special drink. 55 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: And then you get your vodka, all your white ramen 56 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: yours and you're happy. 57 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: That's perfect. 58 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: So I think that's my summer summer sorted. 59 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 4: Men. 60 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to get some advice later on around 61 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: being an aspiring CEO, you know, how to become a 62 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: successful business leader. 63 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: But let's get to know you about fear. 64 00:02:59,160 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: So. 65 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: You grew up in the UK. We've got a Welsh 66 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: father in a Chinese mother. 67 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: That's right. 68 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: Did they really meet in the bus stop? Who really did? 69 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 4: And it was raining and dad had a broken umbrella 70 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 4: and he got onto the bus and he saw my 71 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 4: obviously very beautiful mother and she saw him and he 72 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 4: couldn't even get his umbrella to go down on the 73 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 4: bus And thought he seemed strange, and then he followed her. 74 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 4: They went to the tube and they got on the 75 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 4: tube and he got into the same carriage and apparently 76 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 4: his opening line was are you a nurse? And goodness well, 77 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 4: I think as he was off to Bart's, which is 78 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 4: a hospital, and I think he just thought, you're going 79 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 4: in the same direction, and he got her address out 80 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 4: of her very naive Chinese lady, and he turned up 81 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 4: on the doorstep the next day and waited in the 82 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 4: kitchen for an hour with her flat mates until she 83 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 4: came home to ask her out. 84 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's quiet, it's nate, it's neat. 85 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, whether it'd be a bit still 86 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 4: corrish in this day and age, I don't know. Bully, 87 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 4: he certainly kind of got their site. 88 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: Well, and she gave him her. 89 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: Yeah right, Yeah, she was very naive, I think. 90 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: So she come from China to the UK, so it 91 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: was this in Ka, it was. 92 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: In the UK, it was in North London. She'd been 93 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 4: in the UK for a few years. I think she'd 94 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 4: done her A levels at some boarding school in Yorkshire 95 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 4: and then she was at one of the London universities 96 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: doing biochemistry. But I think leading quite a kind of 97 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: secluded life until my father rocked up. 98 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. So how on Earthlyn 99 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: did you get to New Zealand? 100 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 4: So I when I was leaving my first job, I 101 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 4: was traveling around in Asia and I was staying with 102 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 4: a university friend. I was like, I'm going to go 103 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 4: up to Beijing and see what's going on up there. 104 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 4: You know, I've been to Beijing before. I'm half Chinese. 105 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 4: This is two thousand and four. And this friend said, 106 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 4: you've got to catch up with Kiwi while you're there. 107 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: Kiwi was the New Zealander. The one New Zealander had gone. 108 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 4: To the university that I'd gone to in the UK, 109 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 4: and he'd been nicknamed Kiwi. There was more than one 110 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 4: New Zealander there, and so I was like, I can't 111 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 4: go catch up with Kiwi. Haven't seen him in four years. 112 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 4: And he's like, you've got to stay with him. And 113 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 4: he's oh, no, no, no, I send people to stay with 114 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: him all the time. It's got he room. So give 115 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 4: him a call. So I called him and I said, 116 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 4: can I come and stay with you Kiwi? And he said, no, 117 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 4: no room. At the end, I'm go and stay at 118 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 4: our hotel. 119 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: So I did that. 120 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: Anyway, we hit it off brilliantly, and about a year 121 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 4: and a half later we sort of got our act 122 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 4: together and moved to China. After a year, I said, please, 123 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: let's move back to London. That's the place to go, 124 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 4: and he said, no, I want to move to New Zealand. 125 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 4: I want to go home, and so I just followed him, 126 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 4: got on you Yeah you mean up in christ too. Yeah, 127 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 4: that's right. So he had the potential job opportunity down there, 128 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 4: which never really transpired. But we hit the ground in 129 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 4: christ Church and you know, we got settled there. It's 130 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 4: been about four years down there, and then we moved 131 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 4: up to Wellington in twenty eleven. 132 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 2: And you did an arts degree in history, is it right? 133 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? 134 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: I did an arts degree. 135 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: I kind of knew that in the UK you can 136 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: kind of get away with not doing anything relevant like 137 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 4: finance or commerce. I kind of knew I wanted to 138 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 4: go that way, but that I could study something more interesting, 139 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 4: and I thought, three years, you've got to do something 140 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting. That's going to Yeah, it sounds 141 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 4: very specific, just one subject for three years. So I 142 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 4: liked history and I like the way that you know, 143 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 4: you think about how you argue things and different points 144 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 4: of view and bias and all that sort of thing 145 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 4: has been really useful in my career afterwards. 146 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: And there is something in that arts degree and that 147 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, and it's I know it's you know, the 148 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: old worn saying, but you know it doesn't necessarily to 149 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: teach you what to think, It teaches you how to think. 150 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's really that's what you do is 151 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 4: did a sociology degree? 152 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: Is that right? 153 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: Yeah? 154 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: So it's the same sort of thing. 155 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: And I've heard Dawn Freshwater, who's a chancellor vice chancellor 156 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 4: at Auckland. You know, she's been talking about, you know, 157 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 4: what you need in an age of AI and you know, 158 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: those sorts of arts degrees actually suddenly then we might 159 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 4: have a new kind of flush of sort of acceptance 160 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 4: and take up because I think how to think, how 161 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 4: to ask questions becomes even more relevant. 162 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: Mind Joe, I was, you know, I'm cheering the Border 163 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: farmic and we were going doing a very important paper 164 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: and at the front was my fellow board members and 165 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: all of their qualifications, and then mindset had a bit 166 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: of work experience. I think, you know, would you like 167 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: to agg my bachelor of that degree to the multiple PhDs. 168 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 4: You've got something I was going at the university. I 169 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 4: went to kind of like switch my bachelor's into a 170 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: master's after three years. You just didn't have to go 171 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 4: to jail in between, and then it got upgraded. So 172 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: it makes me sound like I've done something more. 173 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: So you do need to the top. I mean, it's 174 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: not plain sailing, is it. 175 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: You know? And you talk about, you know, perhaps not 176 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: being in the right job at the right time, and 177 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we feel like we're a failure if 178 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: we make a mistake in the sort of work environment 179 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: we go in. 180 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: And can you talk me through that a bit. 181 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 182 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: I've definitely had periods of my career like a couple 183 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 4: of jobs, probably in a row actually, where I'd gone 184 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 4: from sort of doing really well and everyone thought I 185 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 4: was brilliant, and I at one point thought I was 186 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: brilliant as well. And when you know, in my early 187 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 4: mid twenties and the next job I went into, I 188 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 4: went to Morgan Stanley. It's a big American investment bank, 189 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 4: and I thought I'll give my give myself a go 190 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 4: at this. And I was a very very very small 191 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 4: cargon a huge wheel, and I didn't like it very 192 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 4: much and I had a lot to learn then. I 193 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: think I was quite an arrogant twenty five year old, 194 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 4: and I've got kind of cut back down to size 195 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 4: in a way that I look back now and I 196 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: think that's probably me, more me than them. 197 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: But the next job I went into was good as well. 198 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 4: But sometimes you end up in a position where you 199 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 4: feel that you know you're just not fitting in right, 200 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 4: and sometimes you feel like you need to stay until 201 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: you succeed before you leave on your high. But sometimes 202 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 4: I think it's actually worth quitting beforehand. 203 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: It sounds terrible. 204 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 4: But the next job I found him was like, suddenly 205 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 4: I was a blue eyed girl girl and everyone thought 206 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 4: I was brilliant, And so it just goes to show 207 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 4: that's like, you know, one month later, suddenly I've gone 208 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 4: from being sort of feeling like I don't fit in 209 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 4: and I'm not making progress and no one gets me 210 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 4: to people thinking I'm brilliant and I was exactly the 211 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: same person, which. 212 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: Is good advice, right and end as well in the 213 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: context of a you know, whenever I'm doing any mentoring 214 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: or particularly with young people or you know, I always 215 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: say to them think more about the organization and the values. Yes, 216 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: at least about the role you're going to do. Yeah, 217 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: I think that's really goo because it's a smart company 218 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: will move you. Yeah, you know, like if you are 219 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: the right fetch ye, sometimes we're not the right fit. 220 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, Sometimes you're just not the right fit. And I 221 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 4: think that's okay. Yeah, And so to sort of retry 222 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 4: and go somewhere else, you know, company value wise, and 223 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 4: even sometimes specific manager that you might have, for example, 224 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: sometimes you get along well with the people around you 225 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 4: and sometimes you just end up on the wrong teams. 226 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: And so you'd had lots of roles and things, and 227 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: obviously your experience was growing and everything else. But can 228 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: the steep up and to a chief executive role? I mean, 229 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: how did that come about? 230 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: I mean you were working at KIEWI Wells, I was 231 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 4: at QUE well So I was on there sort of 232 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 4: senior leadership team or executive leadership team. I was in 233 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 4: a strategy role. I was doing that four days a 234 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 4: week by that point. And there was sort of a change, 235 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 4: you know, the board I think was changing at the 236 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 4: CEE and I think he was looking like he was 237 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 4: going to step down. And I thought, you know, I 238 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 4: kind of at one point kind of thought, well, if 239 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 4: I sort of put up my hand and say, you 240 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 4: probably need to run a real process to find a 241 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: new CEO. But what about me is acting, I'll hold 242 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 4: the reins for you. And that was an offer that 243 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 4: they thought, you know, they must have been desperate or something, 244 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 4: but they said, yes, we'll try you as acting and 245 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 4: it ended up being a sort of a nine month interview. 246 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 4: I would say yea, because I did that for about 247 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 4: nine months and then I was given the permanent position. 248 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: But by which point I think I've sort of hit 249 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 4: you know, pretty much all the goals, hoops, obstacles that 250 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 4: they had set me I had miraculously kind of jumped through. 251 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 4: So yeah, so I think it was It was pretty 252 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 4: exciting when I got the job. At the end of 253 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: the day, it's really cool. 254 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: We're going to talk a bit about, you know, the 255 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome and how we step up to it and 256 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: try and give some advice to some people as we 257 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: get a bit further along. But I wanted to touch on you. 258 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you're quite outspoken. You know your own values, 259 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: don't you. 260 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose, so I think it's good to know 261 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 4: your own values. It's kind of kind of helps guide you. 262 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 4: It's great frameworks for life, and yeah, I think I do. 263 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 4: Is it? 264 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, you called out DGL CEO Simon 265 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: Henry for his incredibly awful and misogynistic comments about Nadia. Yeah, 266 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: did you need to think that through before you did it? 267 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 2: Because it's brave and some of us are not courageous enough. 268 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 269 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 4: I didn't have to think it through that much. I 270 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 4: mean I saw the comments. I thought those are pretty outrageous. 271 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 4: I called the person who runs our responsible investment area 272 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 4: and I said, you know, does this sit within our policy? 273 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: What can we do about it? Is there something that 274 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 4: can be done? She said, yeah, on the basis of 275 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 4: the governance and the issues that really provides that in 276 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 4: that area, then you know, we can really blacklist this 277 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 4: company on that basis. And that was I think we 278 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: were literally able to do that overnight. You know, it 279 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 4: was a small enough company where a really we were 280 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 4: really clear about our processes around responsible investment by that point, 281 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 4: so you can make that action really quickly rather than 282 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 4: sit there and going what do we do about this? 283 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: So we could make that action overnight, we had an 284 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 4: ri committee, it was all signed off and then we 285 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 4: were able to say, look, we're not going to invest 286 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 4: in jail. We just think this is a real problem 287 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 4: in terms of what the CEO is saying, the comments 288 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: he's making, and the governance issues that it kind of 289 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 4: raises as well. 290 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's important for us as 291 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: woman leaders to be sometimes speaking out for other woman leaders. Yeah. 292 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, sometimes it's easier for someone to do it for you. 293 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 3: That's true. 294 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 4: Well, I mean I remember he made very specific comments 295 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 4: about Nadia being Eurasian, and you know, we talked about 296 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 4: my heritage as well, so it did sort of strike 297 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: home as well. 298 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So Kiwi Walth was sold and you 299 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: moved on at that time, and you had a sabatacle 300 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: with the family, did you. 301 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: I did. 302 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 4: We took about three months and we went back to Europe, 303 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 4: so from the UK originally, so we spent about half 304 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 4: the time in the UK and then we spent about 305 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 4: half the time on the continent Europe, mostly in Greece, 306 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 4: actually sort of shoving classical education down their throats and 307 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 4: we took them around the Peloponnese peninsula and just took 308 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 4: them to so many ancient sites like mum no more 309 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 4: ancient sites, and then they worked out they could get 310 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 4: slush puppies at the end of practically every visit, so 311 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 4: they kind of cheered up a bit. 312 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 3: But it was really nice. 313 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 4: I think, you know, I love New Zealand and everything 314 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 4: about it, but they're they're kind of the written history 315 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 4: of it is relatively short, and even if you go back, 316 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 4: you know, you've got probably what since the Polynesians and 317 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 4: Maria arrived, so probably eight hundred years, whereas you know, 318 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 4: with ancient Greece and stuff, you can go back three 319 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 4: and a half thousand and it's just mind blowing. 320 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: Mind blowing back heads as well. 321 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's sort of trying to expose them to and 322 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 4: so I think they did get you know, they did 323 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 4: get a lot of exposure, so hopefully slightly formed. 324 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so you've taken you three months off, You've gone 325 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: and shoved a lot of history into the kids. 326 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 2: I mean it must have been a change. 327 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: I mean, you you know, you were in a high 328 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: powered role that was all encompassing and it just kind 329 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: of stopped. 330 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: But what did the three months tach you? 331 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 4: It's sort of when I was away for that three months. 332 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 4: I sort of percolating like various ideas. It was almost 333 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 4: like if you've lived in Wellington, when you go out 334 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 4: and buy a house, you've got sort of ten things 335 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: that you want to do, and you can never get 336 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 4: all ten things. You can't get the view without the wind, 337 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 4: and you know, getting flat access is impossible. And I 338 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 4: had this massive bucket list of things I wanted to 339 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 4: do next, and I thought, what do I want? And 340 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: the thing that plculated the top was spend more time 341 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 4: with the kids. So I got really clear on that. 342 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: I thought three months of the kids. I actually ended 343 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 4: up wanting to spend more time with them rather than less, 344 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 4: which was a revelation. And then I thought I'd like 345 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 4: to start my own business. I've been watching people do 346 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 4: my friends do it for years, and the grass has 347 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 4: always seemed really green over there. 348 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: It's not that green now I'm over there. 349 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 4: But like I've always thought, you know, people do these 350 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 4: things and they don't fail miserably and it's okay. And 351 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 4: and if I failed as well, I don't really mind anymore, 352 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 4: which is an interesting change. 353 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: Has always been afraid of failing, but now like I 354 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: just get another job. 355 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 4: And I wanted to work flexibly and do those sorts 356 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 4: of hours that around you know, the kids, and over 357 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 4: the long term work towards being able to spend a 358 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 4: couple of months in the. 359 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: UK a year. 360 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 4: So that's my real long term goal. And so all 361 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 4: of that led to let's start my own business and 362 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 4: give it a go. 363 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: So that's what I did. 364 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: Great, So you now run ksyoburry is how you say it? 365 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 4: If you're from what Feared, you just say Cassbury, you 366 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 4: just do you drop half the syllables because it's a 367 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 4: bit lazy, but Cassie Berry is how you should pronounce it. 368 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 369 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: And was it sort of your compromise and starting your 370 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: own business so that you've got still time with the 371 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: family and you can kind of juggle at all. 372 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying 373 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: to have it all. 374 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 4: So the idea is that I work nine to three, 375 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 4: and you know, on most days I see the kids 376 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 4: off to school and then I'm there at three o'clock 377 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 4: and sort of run all that sort of stuff as well. 378 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 4: So it is a really nice balance, yeah, because it 379 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 4: goes so quickly with the kids. 380 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, I always look 381 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 3: back and go wow. 382 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 4: Talking pictures during lockdown the other day, and I just 383 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 4: could not believe the size of the children. And that 384 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 4: was four and a half years ago since lockdown, and 385 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 4: so most of them have kind of over doubled in 386 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: age since then and just blew my mind. So I thought, 387 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: if not now, like when they still want to hang 388 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 4: out with me, Yeah, let's spend some time with them. 389 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: So it's working really well for now. You know, may 390 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: that continue? 391 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 4: You know, never say never about how you change things 392 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 4: and so forth, but this is a really nice balance. 393 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: And I think I always say those sort of if 394 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: you like the tween years and those early teens, I 395 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: think there is important as anything. Yeah, And I think 396 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, like yeah, but with all speak, anyone can 397 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: kind of look after a baby. 398 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 3: This is interesting. 399 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: Actually, I got some really great advice from you know, 400 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 4: one of these incredible women leaders in New Zealand. I 401 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: think it's Als and Geary, and she said, you know, 402 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: when they're little, you know, you can outsource that because 403 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 4: it's really physical needs and so you know, you change 404 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 4: the nappy, you get them to go to sleep, and 405 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 4: so forth, and as they get older, they need you 406 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 4: more and more. 407 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, I thought this was a great period. 408 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 4: I was talking to someone yesterday, police officer, who said, 409 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 4: you know, you really want to instill the values by 410 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 4: the time they're twelve, because by the time they're twelve, 411 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 4: they start going peer to peer, don't they in terms of, 412 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 4: you know, working out what their friends are doing, and 413 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: that's more important to them what their mum or dad 414 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 4: have got to say. So I reckon, I've got two 415 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 4: more years, one more year with my eldest who's eleven 416 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: next month, you know, to really shoven my values and 417 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: then you know, just see what that kind of foundation 418 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 4: goes for. So I thought, yeah, we're spending the time now. 419 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: I think that's awesome. 420 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to take a break at this point 421 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: because we're going to come back and we're going to 422 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: talk about your company, how it's offering support and advice. 423 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: We're going to focus on those who want to be 424 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: be a CEO or those that are, and how to 425 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: successfully lead a business. We are back with Casey are 426 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: Very CEO Rihannon McKinnon, and we're going to chat all 427 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: things becoming and being a successful CEO. So first off, 428 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: let's just talk about what makes a good CEO. 429 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: Sure. 430 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 4: I think a great CEO has wonderful leadership skills and 431 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 4: they're really good with people, hopefully. I mean, I suppose 432 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 4: it might be CEOs out there who aren't great with people, 433 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: but I really think it's around leading people to some 434 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 4: more star and saying this is the way and together 435 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 4: we can do this. 436 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 3: I think that's sort of the number one thing thing. 437 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: So is there a particular personality type that is or 438 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: is not suited to the role. 439 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: Do you think That's a tricky question. 440 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 4: I hate to rule out any sorts of personality as 441 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 4: I'm so into sort of diversity at that senior leadership 442 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: level and trying to encourage everybody to say it could 443 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 4: be you, why not you? That I'd hate to kind 444 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 4: of rule anybody out. You know, my personally, my own personality, 445 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 4: I'm pretty extroverted. I love chatting to people. But I 446 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 4: mean I know lots of introverted CEOs who do a 447 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: brilliant job. But I do think they often learn how 448 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 4: to talk to people and sort of bring people with 449 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 4: them and sort of learn how to sort of play 450 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 4: a little bit out of type. 451 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 2: Ye should everybody? Well, can everybody become a CEO? 452 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: I was about to say, does everybody want to become 453 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: a CEO? I think I think you've got. 454 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 4: To know why you want to do it. That's sort 455 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 4: of one of the big things, you know. I've got 456 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 4: a course and sort of lesson too, is why do 457 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 4: you want to be doing this? And if you just 458 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 4: want to be doing it because you think it's the 459 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 4: next step and you think it's important and you want 460 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 4: the salary, I think it's you're going to find it 461 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 4: a tough run. It's you know, it's really hard work 462 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 4: trying to, you know, drive an entire company organization in 463 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 4: one direction. 464 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: So I think you need to be clear as to why. 465 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 4: And when I did it, I thought, I've got a vision, 466 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 4: i want to do this better, and I've got these 467 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 4: great ideas about how you know, to make Kiwis better off. 468 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: Et cetera, et cetera. 469 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 4: But when I reflect upon it, I think when you're 470 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 4: really clear about how you want to serve as a leader, 471 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 4: I think that's when you really start to sort of 472 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 4: really do some good work. 473 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can, because I mean, surely it's not 474 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: for everyone. 475 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: Well it's not. I mean we say some pretty pause, but. 476 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 3: They probably think it's for them. 477 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 4: But I mean, if I think about you know this, 478 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 4: you know, the c suite that I had, you know, 479 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 4: not everyone wants to step up to do the next job. 480 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: You thinking, oh goodness, why would I want to be 481 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 4: doing that. I'd rather stay, you know, maybe more within 482 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 4: your subject matter expertise, for example, because by the time 483 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 4: you're at the top, you're not really doing as much 484 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 4: as you're used to. You're kind of leading and you're talking, 485 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 4: and you're managing, and you're filtering and you're doing all sorts, 486 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: but there's not so much of the doing the do 487 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 4: And if you actually like getting in the weeds and 488 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 4: getting stuff done, CEO is probably not necessarily the spot 489 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 4: for you, depending on the size of the organization. 490 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: Can we talk about how you managed yourself and that sort. 491 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: Of time, because it was, you know, because you are 492 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: you're raising a family, You've got you know, your partner, husband, 493 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: you know, you've got all this other stuff sort of 494 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: going on and it's a lot, right, Yeah, how did 495 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: you find the time and the space? 496 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: If you like to be that kind of thought leader as. 497 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: Well, Yeah, you've got to be very conscious around how 498 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 4: you spend your time and your energy as well. I 499 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 4: think that energy management's a really interesting one. So time 500 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 4: is finite, but energy is actually kind of a replenishable resource, 501 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 4: So you know where do you get your energy from. 502 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 4: As I said, I'm quite extroverted, so going to meetings 503 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 4: and talking to people gives me ideas and gives me 504 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: energy and boosts me. 505 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: For the day. 506 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 4: But not everybody necessarily acts like that, so they might 507 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 4: want to make sure that during their day they've got 508 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 4: time to actually be by themselves or go for a walk, 509 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 4: or take some exercise or something like that. 510 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 3: With myself and my husband in the last. 511 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 4: Year that I was CE, he would get up at 512 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 4: the crack of dawn and go to work. I'll get 513 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 4: the kids off to school. I try not to do 514 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 4: meetings before about nine to fifteen in the morning because 515 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 4: it's just stressful. I suppose nine I could start, so 516 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 4: it's not a very early start, And then he would 517 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: go home for three o'clock and I would go home 518 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 4: and do course, and we'd have a family meal together, 519 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 4: and then often we would just sort of sit like 520 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 4: battleships in the evenings, like on the sofas and just 521 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 4: kind of get through the rest of the work. I 522 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 4: used to do a lot of my thinking, deep sinking 523 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 4: and writing work in the evenings because during the day 524 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 4: I was just talking and chatting and meeting and I 525 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 4: could never hit a flow. So if I was writing 526 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 4: board papers or actually having to do some actual thinking, 527 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 4: I do a lot of that in the evenings. 528 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: Were and as knowing your own rhythm, right, you can, 529 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: but it's mine. 530 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: As you know, particularly i'm trying to solve a problem, 531 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: I will think about it and do not park it, 532 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: do something creative like whether that's prepare a meal, or 533 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: whether or not that's you know, reading, or whether you 534 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: know whatever that is. And then by then I'm an 535 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: early riser, so I'll wake up and go got it, 536 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: You've got it, and I will write and the. 537 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 4: Night's sleep yeah, nowhereas I actually hit my floes in 538 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 4: the evening. So the meetings are done, the emails and 539 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 4: like the things that I was supposed to do, or 540 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 4: even the other way around. I've been faffing around all 541 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 4: day and I haven't done anything. A bitter sit down 542 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 4: into it now, yeah, And so I sort of sit 543 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 4: down and sort of the kids have gone to bed, 544 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 4: and finally that suddenly two hours will just disappear like that. 545 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: For me evenings, and it was quite interesting. 546 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: I was I was speaking to some high powered woman 547 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: yesterday and we ended up getting into a relatively deep 548 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: conversation and we were saying, and you've certainly mentioned it 549 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: as well, and that being a mum, it is different, 550 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, like we were saying that, you know, I'm 551 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: I'm right out the other end. But you know, they 552 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: were saying, like, we're blessed to be married to you know, 553 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: extraordinary men that really step in and you know, we 554 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: couldn't be doing what we're doing without that kind of partnership. 555 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, no two ways about it. 556 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: But they said, you know, he doesn't worry about whether 557 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: the uniforms clean enough, and he doesn't really get you. 558 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: He'll do anything I ask him, But I still have 559 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: to do all the thought stuff of where that preppers 560 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: and what's happening. And I mean that's probably a bit gendered. 561 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: And I hope there's some men screaming screaming at the 562 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: radio right now and saying no, it's not fear, But 563 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: there is a lot of it. 564 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: I think. 565 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you can read and hear a lot 566 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 4: about the emotional labor that I think is very, very 567 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 4: difficult to sort of outsource and that I think a 568 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 4: lot of women still get stuck with. Certainly, I've planned 569 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 4: the week's meals this week, and I've sort of told 570 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: my husband what he's cooking for dinner tonight because I'll 571 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 4: be home late from Auckland back to Wellington, so you know, 572 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 4: and I sort of do the line share of the 573 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 4: laundry and all those sorts of things as well. I 574 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 4: try and now see I think I might be the 575 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 4: last person of generation who still iron sheets. I can't stop, 576 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 4: just isn't right for me without it. But I now 577 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 4: try and see it as a meditative moment in my day. 578 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 4: So that's how I'm kind of trying to see it. 579 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 4: And I don't try and do yesterday I was listening 580 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 4: to your previous podcast as research. But normally I just 581 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 4: sit there doing nothing because I just let my mind 582 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: kind of empty, and that's the thing to do. But 583 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 4: I have to say it's a little bit pink jobs 584 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 4: and blue jobs, but he does do the blue jobs 585 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 4: as well, so you know, boring things like rubbish or 586 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 4: house maintenance and renovations or you know, the lawn's getting 587 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 4: cut and all those sorts of things he does in spades. 588 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 4: So yes, I do a lot of those home jobs 589 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 4: within the house. But you know, I definitely think if 590 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 4: you look at the marriage and the and what we 591 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 4: do together, he definitely does his fair share. 592 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: Well. When I was a senior minister and even Deputy 593 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: Prime Minister on Sundays, I used to read all my 594 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: cabinet papers and cook the meals from my family for 595 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: the week and you know, and people would just say, 596 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: I just can't believe you know you do that, and 597 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: I'd say, well, I'd like to think these are piece 598 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: of me with the meat to day. 599 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 3: It's nice, do you know what I mean? 600 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: Like I'm not there during the week, really yeah, And 601 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: so i'd just like I'd say, well, a enjoy it, 602 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: you know. 603 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: So you know I can some do both. 604 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 3: Do you to do them simultaneously? 605 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's quite impressive because I've started, you know, someone 606 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 4: and I cook. I quite enjoy cooking and that I 607 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: find I can ruin cooking if I'm still checking messages 608 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 4: and all the rest of it. Like I'm like, oh, 609 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 4: so you just put the phone away and then it 610 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 4: becomes a zone. 611 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: Most of what I'm making is kesse roles and long 612 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, because they're reading it during the week. 613 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not something. 614 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: That you're prep s it simmery match, you. 615 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: Know what I mean, like that sort of thing. But yeah, 616 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: that was, you know, And so sometimes we do it 617 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: by choice, right, which is kind of cool. Okay, we've 618 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: all head got will have a touch of the imposter syndrome, 619 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: that kind of I love the fake it until you 620 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: make it kind of thing. 621 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 2: But how can you tune that into a positive insteed 622 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: of it being crippling? 623 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 4: I think a positive way of looking at it is 624 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 4: if you say, if you've just started as a new 625 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 4: CEO and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, what am I 626 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 4: doing here? And I certainly woke up with butterflies and 627 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 4: my stomach every day for the first two weeks. I 628 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 4: just wake up and be like, oh my goodness, I've 629 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 4: got to turn off and be CEO today, and what 630 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 4: on earth does that mean? And that you go in 631 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 4: and you do it. And by lunchtime they were gone, 632 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 4: and by about three o'clock I was trying to go 633 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 4: to the pub because I was so spent. But but 634 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 4: you know, I think one of the really good things 635 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 4: you can do is actually think about the fresh questions 636 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 4: you can ask, So if you are a fresh person, 637 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 4: new job, you can ask a whole load of dummy 638 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 4: questions that no one has the guts to ask. And 639 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 4: also about the things about how things have been done 640 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 4: in the past where people kind of know that they're 641 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 4: kind of bonkers, but the previous CEO so they always 642 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 4: needed to be like that, or that was the pet project. 643 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 4: You go in and ask all the questions. You go 644 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: on a listening tour around your whole business and say like, 645 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: I don't know what happened in the past, but tell 646 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 4: me what do you think should be different, And you 647 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 4: can really start to leverage that as a as a 648 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 4: really useful thing, you know, leaning in and saying you 649 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 4: know that I just don't know, but I might here 650 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 4: to learn, I think is a really great way to 651 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 4: kind of turn that imposter syndrome around and sort of 652 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 4: use it to your advantage. 653 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: Do we support first time CEOs enough because it can 654 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: be quite isolating counter I mean, and you've got to 655 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: be the boss. 656 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 4: Being the boss is quite difficult just talking to somebody around, like, 657 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 4: especially if you get internally promoted, suddenly all your mates 658 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 4: and your peers aren't your mates and peers anymore. They 659 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 4: your direct reports, and that transition. I think those internal 660 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: transitions are almost harder than if you get parachuted in 661 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 4: and you're like, ah, you don't know me, but i'm 662 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 4: your boss now, So that can be really hard. I 663 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 4: think it is one of those lonely positions where you've 664 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 4: got a whole bunch of You've got your chair on 665 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 4: your board above you, you've got a whole sort of 666 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 4: senior leadership or executive leadership below you, and I kind 667 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 4: of liking it to being in the middle of an 668 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 4: hour glass and you've got sort of year and you're 669 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 4: filtering the information in both directions. You're deciding what out 670 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 4: of that leadership team information needs to go up to 671 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 4: the board. You want to paint them a transparent pitture. 672 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 4: You want to give them the information that they need 673 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 4: to make their own wise governance decisions. And then you 674 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 4: need to be filtering the board back to the leadership 675 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 4: team so they know actually what they should be carrying 676 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 4: on with. So it can be quite hard. And yeah, 677 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 4: you're definitely sometimes told things by the chair and board 678 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 4: that are super confidential and you really want to share 679 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 4: with somebody, and you've got nowhere to go, and that's hard. 680 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, really tough. 681 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: And so do you think there is a certain background 682 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: or experience that you need to then be able to 683 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: steep up into a first CEO role. 684 00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 3: That's a great question. 685 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 4: I think it really depends on the role, which is 686 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 4: a bit of a cop out answer, but I was 687 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: just thinking about succession planning earlier and how you know, 688 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: Casabury and COEO one on one might be able to 689 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 4: help with that. And I think one of the first 690 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 4: things a board needs to know is what they need 691 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: out that CEO. So what are the actual I suppose 692 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 4: specific hard skills and sector experience that they need from 693 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 4: that person so they understand things. But you know, going 694 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 4: back to those soft skills, I think being able to 695 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 4: understand and lead people, to understand strategy, to be able 696 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 4: to take risk and understand risk. 697 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 3: I think risk is a really difficult one. 698 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 4: And you know, as CEOs these days, a stakeholder landscape 699 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: has got a lot more difficult. I think you know, 700 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: back in the day, you just kind of made as 701 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 4: much profit as you could do, and you gave it 702 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 4: to your shareholders and you went home and you kind 703 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 4: of over on clapped and said you did a great, 704 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 4: great job. Whereas now I think when you look at 705 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 4: the sort of social stakeholder landscape, when you look at 706 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 4: the environment, when you look at social license to operate 707 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 4: and being a good kind of corporate citizen, I think 708 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 4: that has shifted quite a bit and so is more 709 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 4: nuanced and more difficult than it would have been. 710 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: We have different expectations now, don't we all our companies 711 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: in our businesses and our leaders from within them, and 712 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: for a good I think for good reasons. 713 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's changed a lot. I think we 714 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 4: have a totally agree. I think more businesses are sort 715 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 4: of purpose led, and I think the younger you get 716 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 4: your generationally, the more that people expect more from the 717 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 4: companies to be delivering something more than profits to shareholders. 718 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: Now, you started your business where you are supporting and 719 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: helping to grow cees and you sort of seed you 720 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: do that to from learning from your own mistakes? What 721 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: were some of them? 722 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 3: What were my mistakes? 723 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 4: I think you know, I've I got told of quite 724 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 4: a few times at the beginning for not making decisions. 725 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 4: So I'd be like, oh, this is difficult, and what 726 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 4: do you. 727 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: Think I should do? 728 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 4: And I would pass a decision sort of back up 729 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 4: to the board, and then i'd get quite you know, 730 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 4: slapped across the hand and say, we're paying You're the 731 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 4: CEO Rhiannon, and we're paying you to make a decision. 732 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 4: So you know you need to make it, and you 733 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 4: know you need to know the pros and cons and decide, 734 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 4: but it's your decision. This is what we pay you 735 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 4: the big butts for. You know, you don't pass it 736 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 4: back up. So that was quite an interesting one, and 737 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 4: there was a couple of times that I got got 738 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 4: told that once in week one week one. You can 739 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 4: probably you know, forgive me for it. And about a 740 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 4: few months later I was sort of told it again. 741 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 4: I had a really tricky one around, you know, a 742 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 4: big project that was being led by someone and I 743 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 4: wasn't sure about that that person being the right leader 744 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 4: or not. But I didn't have that my own subject 745 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 4: matter expertise in there, so I was really scared about 746 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 4: making a decision because I was like, I don't really 747 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 4: know what's going to make this project work or not, 748 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 4: but I feel like the leader isn't the right one. 749 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 4: So I did pull off the plaster with that one, 750 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 4: and it was it did turn out. 751 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: To be the right decision because there's a mix there, right, 752 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: And you call it particulating, which I love because I 753 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,479 Speaker 1: used it myself, you know, like and you know even now, 754 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: I still do quite a bit of consulting and someone 755 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: will throw something at me and I'll go, I need 756 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: to I need to sit and breathe on that one 757 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: for a while. You know, I've got a few ideas 758 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: in my head. Let me stay away. 759 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: And so you do. 760 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: So A You're right, you need to be able to 761 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: make decisions. But then equally, there's nothing wrong with not 762 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: being the instant decision maker where you can sider, sit 763 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: back and think something through. 764 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, And I think with some of those 765 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 4: really difficult ones, I did go and ask a whole 766 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 4: load of different people that I've kind of called up 767 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 4: people outside of the organization. 768 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: I said, hey, I'm struggling with this. What do you think. 769 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: I had a moment where I had the tech team 770 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 4: and the customer team were not seeing like to I 771 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,719 Speaker 4: about an app that they wanted to push out, and 772 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 4: Tech kind of said, you're not ready, and customer was 773 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 4: desperate to get something in front of customers to show 774 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 4: that we're doing a good thing and that was a 775 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 4: really tricky one for me again, and I remember speaking 776 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 4: to a whole bunch of people who kind of said, actually, 777 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 4: those guys never get along. Yeah, like you know, was ever. Thus, 778 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 4: you know, the customer guys always want to get something 779 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 4: shining out in front of the customers, and they don't 780 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: really care what the back end looks like, and you 781 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 4: know it can all be a mess where is the 782 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: tech team probably want it to be perfectly coded and 783 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 4: to the never to be any tech debt and all 784 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 4: these other terminology and so you know these guys are 785 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 4: always going to be at odds and that's okay. So 786 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 4: then you have to sort of decide what's the most 787 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 4: important thing and how much you know we're the compromise is. 788 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 789 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you were well, I suppose I'm 790 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: going to come at this from two different angles. So 791 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: when were you treated differently because you were young and 792 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: a woman or do you think that and do you 793 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: think that held you back at all for asking the 794 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: questions or feeling that you had to prove yourself on 795 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: almost a daily basis. 796 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 4: That's interesting chance and no, I think you know to 797 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 4: have got that role when I did. 798 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: So. 799 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 4: I was forty one, I was a woman, and I 800 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 4: had three kids at home, and I was working four 801 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 4: days a week and they gave me the shot. And 802 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 4: that's not sort of you know, that was actually probably 803 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 4: quite brave by them as well, given you know that 804 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 4: I didn't have that previous CEO experience and so forth. 805 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 4: And I felt very well supported through that period as well. 806 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 4: Like the board may have told me a couple of 807 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 4: times to sort of, you know, put my big boy 808 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: pants on and actually make a decision, but generally, actually 809 00:32:58,680 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 4: they were right there behind me. 810 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: They were really helpful. 811 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: So I don't think I suffered from that in those 812 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 4: in that particular scenario at all. 813 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: And you do make the point, you know I was reading. 814 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: You know, you make the point that if you're having 815 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: a day of doubting yourself slightly, then actually just trust 816 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: in other people that think you're great in supporting you, 817 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: because you wouldn't have got the job if you weren't 818 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: up for it. 819 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 820 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 4: Absolutely, Sometimes just give you your friends a call and 821 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: let them big you up. 822 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 3: I think that's really great. 823 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 4: I've had some great friends who've supported me really fantastic. 824 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 4: Who you know, when I thought, oh, I'm not sure 825 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 4: if I'm going to take the job or not. I got, 826 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 4: you know, properly told off by a friend of mine 827 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 4: who was like, no, you take the job and we 828 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 4: will support you and we will have your back. And 829 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 4: this this friend of mine literally came out and put 830 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 4: my kids to bed one night shortly after took the 831 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 4: CEO job, and so she really she followed through. 832 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's extraordinary. 833 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: Look, we hear a lot about life balance, and obviously 834 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: for you and the role that you're in, your choosing it, 835 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: which is fantastic. Do you do you think that people 836 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: are put off taking a role like CEO because they 837 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: feel like they're going to have to do the mess 838 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: of hours and the compromise that there does and can 839 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: we change it? 840 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: Yes? 841 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 4: I do think people are put off because I think 842 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 4: they think the hours are huge. I think one of 843 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 4: the things I really tried to do as CEO was 844 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 4: be really transparent about my life and how things worked 845 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 4: and also didn't work sometimes, you know. Of the when 846 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 4: I stepped down as CEO, I got told by quite 847 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 4: a few people that their favorite all staff calls was 848 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 4: the one that I'd promptly forgotten, which is when I 849 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 4: was doing it at home, doing my professional best, and 850 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 4: my then six year old came into the background, and 851 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 4: everyone's severely looking at the six year old, thinking what. 852 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 3: She's going to do. 853 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 4: And then she got this tiny figurine of pepper pig 854 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 4: and she put it on my head while I was talking, 855 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 4: and I sold it on as a real professional and 856 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 4: pretended that I didn't have pepper pig on my head 857 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 4: and carried on. And then then you know, the call 858 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 4: finishes it, and I suppose I tell off the six 859 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 4: year old and life goes on, and I forgot all 860 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 4: about it, you know, because I think it's quite embarrassing, 861 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 4: car said, and mind, They're like, that was our favorite 862 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 4: call ever. It was so good, and we love your daughter. 863 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 4: She's so brilliant. So but what I was really trying 864 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 4: to do is humanize that role as much as possible 865 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 4: and say, you know, I'm juggling as much as you 866 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 4: guys are during their lockdowns. You know, we had a 867 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 4: twenty twenty one lockdown. My kids were genuinely chaotic in 868 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 4: the background. In the afternoon, I sort of did a 869 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 4: period of the day when my husband looked after the kids, 870 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 4: and then we swapped and then we just kind of 871 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 4: went all kind of random in the afternoon just to 872 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 4: see what would happen. So I felt that gave real 873 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 4: permission for people. When I said I don't mind if 874 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 4: your cat or your dog or your child turns up 875 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 4: on the call, I really mean it because mine are 876 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 4: doing the same. So I felt that encourage a whole 877 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 4: load of people to believe that they could actually step 878 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 4: up and not be perfect, and they could be flexible 879 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 4: and they didn't have to be just kind of one thing. 880 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 4: And I thought that was when people said they went 881 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 4: for particular jobs in the organization because they saw how 882 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 4: I sort of balance stroke didn't balance it. That was 883 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 4: not some of my predest moments. 884 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's real, right because we are We're all 885 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: just juggling a whole lot. Yes, no matter sort of 886 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: what stage you are at life. But it is completely 887 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: different when you're trying to parent because they kind of 888 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: depend on you quite a lot. 889 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: They do, those little ones do. 890 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 4: It was quite interesting in that first twenty twenty lockdown, 891 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 4: depending on where people were their parenting journeys to just 892 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 4: how hectic it looked and how frazzled people looked on 893 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 4: the calls because the toddlers and the babies, you know, 894 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 4: if they're not you know, they have to be watched 895 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 4: every moment they're awake, right, Whereas as they got older, 896 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 4: you know, they give an iPads or they were doing 897 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 4: online learning and stuff. So really, depending on how old 898 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 4: the kids were in the background, it made a big difference. 899 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: What do you think is the hardest thing that you've 900 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: faced as a CEO? 901 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 3: Oh, the hardest thing that I faced. 902 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 4: I think leading people through a whole lot of change, 903 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 4: especially towards the end. You know, we got bought by 904 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 4: another company, and we knew that meant huge changes to 905 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 4: the you know, the company culture that we had built 906 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 4: and what the future lay for them. And that was 907 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 4: quite hard because we did have various layoffs and you know, 908 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 4: I could see them coming where ahead of everybody else 909 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 4: and keeping people really you know, on track and optimistic 910 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 4: and you know, feeling good about the world, but also 911 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 4: trying to be realistic about what really lay ahead. 912 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 3: That was a really hard thing to juggle or balance. 913 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because you're dealing with real people, right, yeah, 914 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: you know, with real jobs and families, as we've already seid, 915 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: and so that change for them can be quite unsettling 916 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: and you're having to lead them through that. 917 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 4: Yes, we did, and you know, I had a probably 918 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 4: about a four week period so where I you know, 919 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 4: it was official that I was going to be leaving 920 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 4: the business, which is totally makes sense that in the 921 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 4: kind of idea of being brought by another business, you 922 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 4: don't need two CEOs. 923 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 3: So I get that. 924 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 4: I spent the last three or four weeks just going 925 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 4: around just having conversations with people and just trying to 926 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 4: make them feel good about what lay ahead for them individually, 927 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 4: which was the right thing to be doing. But you know, 928 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 4: a tiring time as well. 929 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 930 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: So for someone that's thinking about skipping up, Yes, what 931 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: would your advice to them be. 932 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 4: Well, I would say, first of all, why do you 933 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 4: want to do it? Are you clear about why? I 934 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 4: think that really helps you one sort of drive forward. 935 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 4: But also I think it's really important to divide the 936 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 4: role from the rest of your life. And I think 937 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 4: that's really important too. So the CEO is it's just 938 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 4: a job, right, and I think that really helps. By 939 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 4: the time you get up there, it doesn't have to 940 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 4: take over one hundred hours of your week. Yes, it's 941 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 4: probably quite time consuming, but you do need to have 942 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 4: a really good cut off and remain linked in with 943 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 4: your friends and family as well. So I think being 944 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 4: clear on your why is huge. And then I think, 945 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 4: just you know, I'm just so about the people, like 946 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 4: working on your people's skills and making sure that you 947 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 4: understand how to lead people, how to inspire people, and 948 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 4: then how to think about where you think that organization 949 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 4: should be going. That sort of vision strategy I think 950 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 4: is really important too. 951 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic, Okay, to end the segment, what do you 952 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: think is some of the best advice you've been given? 953 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 4: Trust your gut, so you know when you especially when 954 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 4: you're so I've been talking about people and saying they're 955 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 4: so important, and I really believe that. It also means 956 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 4: it sounds terrible that you have to weed out people 957 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 4: that aren't necessarily the right people on your team as well, 958 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 4: and I think they're one of the best ways to 959 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 4: do that. And it was advice I was given was 960 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 4: trust your gut. If you kind of feel that that 961 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 4: person isn't the right person on your team today, but 962 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 4: you're thinking, oh, you know, I'm not sure I'm going 963 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 4: to give them another six months, another twelve months, in 964 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 4: six or twelve months time, you're going to feel the 965 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 4: same and you would have lost that time. So you 966 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 4: actually need to act now and act quite purpose purposefully. 967 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 4: So that trust your gut thing I think was a 968 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 4: really good piece of advice. And the sooner you get 969 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 4: your team around you, the sooner you can start really 970 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 4: getting things done. 971 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's amazing and really good advice. Rhannon. 972 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: The podcast is called Ask Me Anything, and I've been 973 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: doing all of the asking, so this is an opportunity 974 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: if you would like to to ask me a question. 975 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 3: Sure, I've got a question for you. 976 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 4: We've talked in during this podcast about my transition from 977 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 4: leading and organization to what nurse I do next and 978 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 4: me thinking about all the things that I wanted to do, 979 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 4: and I'm still very much working it out. But I 980 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 4: look at your career as well, and you are Deputy 981 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 4: Prime Minister and so you had a huge leadership position, 982 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 4: much bigger than mine, and you've also obviously changed careers 983 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 4: again many times during your life, and I look at 984 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 4: what you're doing now, and you've got a huge portfolio 985 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 4: of different things you're doing. So please tell me about 986 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 4: your transition and how you've been thinking about it and 987 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 4: how you've been either building your portfolio or not, and 988 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 4: how you're going. 989 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose it's quite interesting because sometimes to work. 990 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 2: Out what you do want to do, you have to 991 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: work out what you. 992 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,479 Speaker 1: Don't want to do, and it's quite interesting. I didn't 993 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: want to go and be a CEO, and I actually 994 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: didn't really want to although I'm a I'm a one 995 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: hundred percent of people person, but I actually didn't want 996 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: to manage people on a day to day basis because 997 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: I'd kind of done it and done it for years 998 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,439 Speaker 1: and A I'd done staff, but B I'd also kind 999 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: of managed politicians. 1000 00:40:58,360 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: There's nothing more difficult than. 1001 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: You know, they kind of you know, raccoons with Raby, 1002 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: some of them, you know, like it's it's you know, 1003 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: like it's a lot right, and all under public scrutiny. 1004 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: So I kind of knew what I didn't want to do, 1005 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: and I suppose a bit like where you're at now 1006 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: as well. Whatever I did do, it didn't need to 1007 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: take eighty to one hundred hours a week, which is 1008 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: what I had been doing. And I think, like most people, 1009 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: I wanted choices. So when I kind of started going, 1010 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: I know what I don't want, and then can add 1011 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,879 Speaker 1: in the things that I know that I enjoy, and 1012 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: then you know, like I went, you know, I went 1013 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: into that sort of commercial world and all. 1014 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 2: The rest of it. Love it, love the company culture, 1015 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 2: you know. 1016 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: So that was what was most important to me, and 1017 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: then it's become and then equally in the back of 1018 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: my mind was always what's my give back? So that's 1019 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: my why and that's what drives me. So you know, 1020 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: my work was sea cleaners, which is my volunteer job. 1021 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: You know, I probably takes up as much time as 1022 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: anything else because it's my absolute passion and I love it. 1023 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: And then you know, something like that make that goes back, say, 1024 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: knowing me well enough to know what would get me 1025 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: bouncing out of bed awesome and looking forward. 1026 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: To the day. But that's not easy. And you do 1027 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 2: get to an age where you don't care. 1028 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 1: I don't care about what other people think, oh what 1029 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: other people want? You do? What? You know? Well, say 1030 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: this group that I was talking to yesterday and I 1031 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: know them, but they're not they're not my besties, you know, 1032 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: and they were just like, oh you you. The thing 1033 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: you've taught us the most is the f off excuse me, 1034 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, And I said, well, I'm usually just saying 1035 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: it in my head, and they were like, yeah, but 1036 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: it's so powerful if in your head, you know, like 1037 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: you choose who you work with. 1038 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's great. 1039 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 4: I think I'm always trying to tell people just to 1040 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 4: stop trying to please other people when they make their 1041 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 4: own decisions. Like, you know, you've got all these different 1042 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 4: people saying I want, need to do this, and that 1043 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,399 Speaker 4: you've got to make the decision for yourself, right, Yeah, 1044 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that's great. 1045 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Oh, thank you. Now we've got to and we've 1046 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: got to give the sales patch now. So where do 1047 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: they find you? And I mean I was saying to 1048 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: you before we've been on here, I've already gone out 1049 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: there and sentence to my daughter because she's just beautiful 1050 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: and is just so incredibly smart and really wanting advice 1051 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: on how she steps into that big leadership role. So 1052 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: how can people find you in what you offer? 1053 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 3: Thanks, Paula. 1054 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 4: The easiest way to find me is probably just go 1055 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 4: to CEO one oh one dot enz. That's where I've 1056 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 4: got all my information around how to step up to 1057 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 4: be a CEO. I'm writing a new course about how 1058 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 4: to step up to be into the C suite as well. 1059 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 4: So I'm really kind of trying to focus on those 1060 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 4: moments of transition. It's for aspiring people as well, but 1061 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 4: I think if you're just new into the CEO or 1062 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 4: a sea suite role and like, what on earth do 1063 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 4: I do? Now, that's a place to go where you 1064 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 4: google my name Rihanna on which is impossible to spell. 1065 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 4: Cassabury will get you there, also impossible to spell. I 1066 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 4: don't know what I was thinking. So CEO one oh 1067 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 4: one dot MZ fantastic. 1068 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing all 1069 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: this amazing advice and letting ask it to know you 1070 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: a little bit more. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And that's 1071 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: it for another episode of Ask Me Anything. If you'd 1072 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,720 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything on iHeartRadio 1073 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: or where you get your podcasts. Make sure you check 1074 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: out some of our past fabulous guests while you're there. 1075 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: I'll be back next Sunday. I'm Paula Bennett. Ask Me Anything. 1076 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 2: Goodbye,