1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Hello, I am Paul Vinnett and welcome to my new 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Zealand Herald podcast Ask Me Anything. 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: Now. 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: One thing I've learned in life is it's never too 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: late to learn something new. So on this podcast, I 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: talked to people from all walks of life to hear 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: about how they got to where they are and get 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: some advice and guidance on some of life's biggest questions. 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: A couple of months ago, you may have seen the 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: new TV series Madam, starring Rachel Griffiths. Well. Madame was 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: inspired by the real life story of my guest Today 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: and Tania Murphy. Antonia was the founder and director of 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: ethical feminist escort agency, The Batch, which operated in Fong 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: Array from twenty sixteen. While the TV show was fictionalized 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: a version of Antonia's story, she has now released the 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: full and true story in a memoir. It's called Madam 17 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Antony a Movie. Welcome. 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to 19 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 3: be here. It's good to have you here. 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: I am just absolutely fascinated by your story. But let's 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: do it a quick five question. If you could go 22 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: to the pub for a drink with any one interesting, 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: who would it be. 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: Is this gonna make me sound terrible? I kind of 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: want to pick Peter Teele's brand. What are they doing 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: with AI? Why are they doing it? And why are 27 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: they all buying bolt holes in New Zealand to escape to? 28 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah it's interesting, isn't it. It's a bit creepy. Yeah yeah, yeah, No, 29 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: that would be And would you have a drink of choice? 30 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: I would probably be a delicious gin martini. Oh, if 31 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: you're going to go, just go for. 32 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite bar or restaurant in the 33 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: world a seeming weird that kind of you just go, Oh, 34 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: my goodness, in the world. 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: No, that's a tough one. I think anywhere with a 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: gorgeous view of the sea. 37 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah that's nice. I'm just with no fear of favor. 38 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: I possibly head the entree that is still playing in 39 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: my mind about two weeks ago. Isn't it funny or 40 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: something that happens power? And it was at the Grove 41 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: in Auckland. There you go. If you're asking me my 42 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: favorite this week. 43 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to check it out. I've not had 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: proper power yet. We's ten years in New Zealand. 45 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: I was with it was a big group and There 46 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: were a number of women there that had never eaten power, 47 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: and I said, if you can try any this is it, 48 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: and they just all went, oh, my goodness, amazing. So 49 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: there you go. Okay, so let's start by learning a 50 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: bit more about you, and then we'll chat about the 51 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: batch and ethical six week and the second segment. So 52 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: you're American, we can hear it. 53 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: Well, I'm both now I have my Kivy citizenship. 54 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, Okay, that's good. So I mean, how on 55 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: earth did you end up in New Zealand? And I 56 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: suppose how one needs did you end up in Falloray 57 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: in New Zealand? 58 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: Hmmm, well I sailed here with my then husband, and 59 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: New Zealand was downwind from California. It was a bit 60 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: more considered than that, but not a whole lot, to 61 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: be honest. I was in San Francisco and sort of 62 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: looking around and thinking, how am I going to be 63 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: able to afford to have a family here, put my 64 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: kids in private school so they won't get shot eventually 65 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: by a house like it all just seemed sort of impossible. 66 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: And then the never ending wars in the Middle East 67 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: and my husband at the time and I looked around 68 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: and said, hmmm, what are our other options? 69 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: But sailing from America to New Zealand is messig Well. 70 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: We were both big sailors anyway, okay, And then as 71 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: we sailed along and during the course of our adventures, 72 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: we talked to people and said what do you reckon 73 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: should it be? Well, at the time I didn't say reckon, 74 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: did I said what do you think would it be 75 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: Australia or New Zealand? They said, hmmm, I think you'll 76 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: like New Zealand a lot better, So. 77 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: You are we are. 78 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: So then how did you end up in full Array? 79 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 2: It's one of the first ports of call for a 80 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: lot of boats that come from overseas, just sort of 81 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: the way the winds and currents work. 82 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: Wow. And you literally landed there and then went, actually, 83 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: this is where we'll stay. 84 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: Well, we actually in New Zealand actually hazed us with 85 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: a year and Invercargo first, so we needed to get 86 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: a one year working visa and there were jobs in Invercargo, 87 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: so we moved to the bottom of the world first 88 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: for a year, and then Invercargo has some beautiful spots. 89 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, I mean the cat skills and 90 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: Stuart Island and all that, but the weather was a 91 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: bit extreme. So after that year we went back to 92 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: Fungaday where the sun was shining. 93 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Now I like him the cargo, I reckon. 94 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: I'm just one of those few people that every time 95 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: I visited, it's just had the sun out and it's 96 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: been absolutely beautiful. 97 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: It can be absolutely gorgeous, and then these arctic winds 98 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: come in from the south that take you by surprise. 99 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: So at one point you were on a farm. Yes, yeah, 100 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: I did the rural life, soach you. 101 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: I loved it. Yeah. 102 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: We actually moved out there because we had a son 103 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: who was quite profoundly disabled. And I found a small, 104 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: a tiny, one room schoolhouse that seemed like something out 105 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: of a fairy tale book about half an hour outside 106 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: of Fungaday. And then I sort of fell in love 107 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: with the idea of hobby farming and we got a 108 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: lifestyle block and I was making cheese and I was 109 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 2: making fruit wine and it was it was. 110 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: Blast yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And then you split from 111 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: your husband. You found yourself in New Zealand, divorced with kids, 112 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: as you've mentioned a disabled son as well. You know, 113 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: can you tell me what life was like for you 114 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: at this time before you started the bitch. 115 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: Well, I needed to get a new plan, didn't I. 116 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: So I had been thinking about sex work and I 117 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: and I had learned years earlier that it was the 118 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: criminalized in New Zealand. And I was amazed by that 119 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: and fascinated because sorried interrupt. 120 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: But are we one of the few? We have one 121 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: of the few that. 122 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: This is the only country in the world where it 123 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: is complete. 124 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: It seems so normal to me, Well, you know what 125 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: I mean. It's not that I'm old, but it's not 126 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: that it's all I've even known, but it just, yeah, 127 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: it seems so normal. 128 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: Well, what a lot of people don't understand is there 129 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: are places in the world where it is legalized, and 130 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: that makes it sound like it's more free there, but 131 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: it's not. Actually where it's legalized, they often have a 132 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: lot of regulations in place that can actually marginalize a 133 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 2: lot of sex workers and sort of cast them into 134 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: a criminal area. But New Zealand is the only country 135 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 2: that is completely decriminalized. New South Wales in Australia is 136 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 2: as well, but not the entire country. 137 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: So here it is. 138 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and initially I was interested in that because I 139 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 2: wanted to write a book about New Zealand and so 140 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: years previously I had gone to a brothel in Auckland 141 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: and interviewed some of the sex workers and came away thinking, 142 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: my gosh, these are just young women trying to work. 143 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: They're just at their job. It's not a whole thing. 144 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: It's not scary, it's not sleazy. At least that one 145 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: where I visited was not. And I sort of filed 146 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: that in the back of my memory banks. And then 147 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: when it came time to start making an income and 148 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: building a business, I thought, wow, maybe this is something 149 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: I could actually do. 150 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: But what be you six work for yourself or build 151 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: a business because you. 152 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 3: Run that business. 153 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: Because at that time I was forty one, and also 154 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: I had just tied a third child. Yeah, so that 155 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 2: wasn't really on my radar. 156 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you did say in the book you wouldn't 157 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: have had the guts to open up a brothel while 158 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: your mum was alive. 159 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: Why is that? 160 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: My mother was a very strong, wilful feminist, and she 161 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: had a lot of opinions about a woman's place in 162 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: the world and how it should not be her ability 163 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: to make her way in the world should not be 164 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: ordained by how she looked and her sex appeal. 165 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: So I think. 166 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: Eventually she would have come around, but I think at 167 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: first that would have been a tall order for her 168 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: to accept that. 169 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: But she was really big in a good education. 170 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: In absolutely having a profession, and in particular so that 171 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: if some guy leaves you with two kids to support, 172 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: you'll be able to make your way on your own. 173 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your son, Silas, right, so tell me 174 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: about him and what it meant for you to be 175 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: raising him like you did. 176 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: Well. 177 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: Silas had what's called a chromosomal micro deletion, and it 178 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: took a couple of years to discover it because it's 179 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: so tiny, the little problem in his DNA. The geneticist 180 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 2: at Starship told us that a few years previously, no 181 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: one would have even known what was wrong. They actually, 182 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: at the time they had to send his blood sample 183 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: to Australia to have what's called the DNA micro done, 184 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: where they essentially print out the entire blueprint of the 185 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: genome and figure out exactly where the tiny mistake is. 186 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: But the way that manifested was that he was although 187 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: he could walk, he was and he's very cute. He 188 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: was almost entirely nonverbal, incontinent at night, was not certainly 189 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: not able to read or write. Like it became rapidly 190 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: clear he was going to be profoundly disabled for his life. 191 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: And what can I tell you? That's hard. 192 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, everyone likes the Talco big game about 193 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: how we're all inclusive, but the reality is that when 194 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: you have a profoundly disabled family member, nobody really wants 195 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: to hang out with him unless you're paying, because it 196 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: can be troubling, and it can be embarrassing, and it 197 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: can be quite confronting. 198 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's a lot and a 199 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: lot on you, is the and a lot on his siblings, 200 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: I imagine. 201 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so on his siblings. I mean at 202 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: the time, they didn't know any different. So he was 203 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: just sort of a part of our lives. And he's 204 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,599 Speaker 2: quite wonderful too. He absolutely adored Broadway musicals, so I 205 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 2: would put on, you know, Fiddler on the Roof for 206 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: a West Side Story and he bounce up and down 207 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: in absolute joy, really, which was a delight. But yeah, 208 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: he couldn't really like he didn't play with them as 209 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: they would have been as they did with one another. 210 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: Silas passed away in twenty nineteen. And you know, you've 211 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: certainly talked about the grief of losing a disabled child. 212 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: I think of losing a child really would be and 213 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: so how have you coped? 214 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: Well? 215 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: In a way, I say this in the book, when 216 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: you lose a disabled child, it's really the second of 217 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: two griefs, because the first one is the death of 218 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: the child that you thought you had or would have, 219 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: which is the child who's going to grow up into 220 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: an independent adult and have all of those life experiences 221 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: like a career and finding love and being independent in 222 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: the world and perhaps having children of their own. And 223 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: then the second death in this case was actually confronting 224 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: a loss of Silas. 225 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 3: I mean, what can I tell you? It exploded our lives. 226 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: I had already been planning on selling the batch and 227 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: taking a year abroad to travel and sort of recover, 228 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: and I needed it all the more after we lost Silas. 229 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: I mean, how important am for you? Was it that 230 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: in the TV series that Silas's character was a part of. 231 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: That really important? And I actually spoke to the film 232 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: the television team and said, you know, please don't, please, 233 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: please don't paper this over like, don't please, don't cast 234 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: someone who's a sort of extremely cute, mildly impaired down 235 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: syndrome girl who looked delightful in every shot, because the 236 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: reality of disability is often difficult and not fun, and 237 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: you know, they can yell inappropriately or have toileting accidents, 238 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: and a loving family still manages to mold themselves around that, 239 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: and I'd really like to show that. And so the 240 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 2: young man they cast in the TV series, he does 241 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: not have the same disabilities as Silas, but he has 242 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: pretty significant cerebral palsy, and so they really they should 243 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: and it was somebody who was actually experiencing disability right, 244 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 2: not just playing it on TV. And so I was 245 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: I was really proud of them for that and happy 246 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: that they're able to show that. 247 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to say thank you for that. 248 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: As an evid watcher, I found it gave a level 249 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: of realness, if you like, is the way I'm going 250 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: to say it. As someone that hasn't raised or been 251 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: around that kind of disability, and I just sort of thought, Wow, 252 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: there's so much going on and it's obviously a big 253 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: part of your life, but equally, you show that you 254 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: can still have a life as well. 255 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 4: Well. 256 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: Also a lot of that's down to this country. 257 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: I mean, while we're on the subject of immigrating to 258 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: New Zealand and also having a disabled child, thank my 259 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: lucky stars because in New Zealand, not only was in 260 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: Funga day, there's an incredible school for disabled children which 261 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: it was an incredible team to help care for them, 262 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: but also I had a funding for a caregiver with 263 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: a budget that I could disburse as I saw fit 264 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: to hire this incredible woman who cared for Silas and 265 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: became sort of his best friend and protect her. Every 266 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: day she would come out for a few hours and 267 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: help out and give us the chance to have a 268 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: normal family life. And these are the kinds of generous 269 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: benefits that are not I would not have found in 270 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: the United States, no way. 271 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're pretty quick to beg in New Zealand 272 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: and we're certainly going through some struggles at the moment 273 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: within our health system, but also recognized the generosity of 274 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: this country. I think as yees, so thank you for that. 275 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: It means a lot. Ah, It's absolutely you weren't alone. 276 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: No, no, I had I had Cara, our wonderful helper 277 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: for Silas and the whole team at her school in 278 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: Fungaday Bloomfield in Funga Day. 279 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: So how did the TV show come about? Because you 280 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: wrote a piece for the Haffington Post, didn't you? Is 281 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: it your backgrounds? You're a journalist or well. 282 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 3: I mean kind of. 283 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: As my ex and I were sailing around Central and 284 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: South America, I started writing funny pieces for sailing magazines 285 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: and travel magazines. 286 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: And they took off. 287 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: I started hearing from people telling me that they were 288 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: spitting their coffee all over their laptop because they were 289 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: laughing so loud, and it was so incredibly rewarding. So 290 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: I started doing more and more of it and winning 291 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: some awards. And then when we got to New Zealand, 292 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: that's when I thought, oh, maybe I can take the 293 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: leap and actually try to start writing full length books. 294 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: So I wrote this cheeky, funny piece in Huffington Post 295 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: called I'm an Ethical Pimp. 296 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,359 Speaker 3: Got lots of cliques, got some outrage. 297 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: Then it sort of faded away, as these things do, 298 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 2: and twenty nineteen happened, twenty twenty happened, COVID, we went 299 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: to France, came back in twenty twenty one, and Huffington Post, 300 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: without my knowledge, reprinted it, and at that time an 301 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: American television producer saw it and rang me up and said, 302 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: this is such an amazing story. 303 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 3: We really want to make this into a TV show. 304 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, scammer for you, you want 305 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: my bank account details to click? But it turned out 306 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: he was for real, and then various production companies got interested, 307 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: and soon enough we had a TV show. 308 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: How thrilled are you that it's Rachel Griffiths? 309 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: Amazing? 310 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: That I use you amazing. I've been a fan since 311 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: Six feet Under. She has such an incredible energy, such 312 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: an incredible vibe. 313 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: Well, I was saying to before that I've been a 314 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: fan since Muriel's wedding, So that just puts me right back. 315 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: For YOUA but look, we're podcasting, so people can't see you. 316 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: You honestly look like her. Well she looks like you. 317 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: Maybe I should say because you're the star. 318 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, because she's the movie star. 319 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: And did you meet you meet Ray? 320 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 4: Oh? 321 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: Absolutely? 322 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 4: Yeah? 323 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 324 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: She Actually she recorded my voice so she could steady 325 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: my accent, which is incredibly fastidious and I really appreciate it. 326 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's how good she is. Yeah, you can 327 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: see the professional actor in her that It's just absolutely. 328 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: People have told me she even walks like me on 329 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: the show. It's a little bit creepy, but very impressive. 330 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: But that's getting into character. That is truly showing a 331 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: character and what they do. Yeah, absolutely amazing. Okay, we're 332 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: going to talk. 333 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: More about The Batch and your decision to go into 334 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: the world of ethical sex work. Next. Okay, welcome back, everybody. 335 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: I am joined by real life Madam Antonia Murphy Antonia. 336 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: Let's turn to the part of your memile that inspired 337 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: this TV series that I just absolutely was mesmerized with. 338 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, you established ethical escort agency, The Batch. Okay, well, 339 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: how on earth did you end up opening an escort agency? 340 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: Well, I needed a business. 341 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: I needed a business after my husband left and I 342 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: needed to make an income, and I thought it would 343 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: be very interesting and cheeky and kind of transgressive and 344 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: something that I could maybe write about because I had 345 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: one book under my belt at that stage, Dirty Chick, 346 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: which was about my sort of disastrous attempts to run 347 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: a small forum in New Zealand, and so in a way, 348 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: it was like, oh, this will be fun it'll be 349 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: kind of cheeky, I'll make some money, and I had no. 350 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: Idea what I'd signed up for. It was so how 351 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: true was. 352 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: The TV series as far as China started up trying 353 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: to attract women into the business, you know, like because 354 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: you're in small town Foma Ray. 355 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're talking about about real details, fact, 356 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to say as low as twenty percent, okay, 357 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 2: but if you're talking about the spirit of the truth 358 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: of what I was doing, it's much higher. That they 359 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: had to change a lot of the details, in large 360 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: part because of just big budget TV and liability laws, 361 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: but they kept to this truth of the spirit of 362 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 2: what I was doing, and I really was. 363 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 3: Grateful for that. 364 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: Okay. So we're going to get into what ethical means 365 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: and how you ran that, but I mean, it does 366 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: fascinate me as to how you started the business, found 367 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the premises, found woman that wanted to work for you, 368 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, effectively. So how did you go about that? 369 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 4: Oh? 370 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: It was a journey, believe me. 371 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 2: The first thing was finding a venue and the first 372 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: thing and I went into it completely wide eyed, saying, Oh, 373 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: I'm just going to be totally honest, because it's a 374 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: legal business, and I'm going to tell people what I'm doing. 375 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: And I was going out to Fungadai rentilations and saying 376 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: I want to start an ethical brothel, and they just 377 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: looked at me like I was out of my mind, 378 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: and a couple of them were willing to work with me, 379 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,239 Speaker 2: but then the landlord wouldn't have a bar of it. 380 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 2: And it partly it was a Christian conservativism. I encountered 381 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: a lot in Northland. And then also sex work just 382 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: has this taint, this reputation that it's going to bring 383 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: with it crime and gangs and drugs and problems, and 384 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: so nobody wanted to have anything to do with it. Well, 385 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: my now husband calls me the pit bull, because when 386 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: I get my teeth into something, I just don't let go. 387 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: And so I just kept knocking at doors and working 388 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: at it, and eventually I met a young woman in 389 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 2: town who ran a sex shop in town. In the book, 390 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: I call her Christie Christy Carle Carly, and she knew 391 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: everybody in town. She was born and raised in Funaday 392 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: and small towns. As you know, they operate on who 393 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: you know and your connections. And so she said, uh, 394 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: I know a guy who is a commercial real estate 395 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: agent in town and give him a text. 396 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 3: He might know something. 397 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: And it turned out this guy owned a motel as 398 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: an investment, a small eight room hotel on the Hattia River, 399 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: the Marina Court Motel, and he didn't want to run 400 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: it as a motel, He just wanted the land. So 401 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: he said, hey, look, you manage the motel, you can 402 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: do your brothel there or whatever it is you want 403 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 2: to do. 404 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 3: I don't want to know about it. 405 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: Just keep it on the up and up, keep the 406 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: motel running, and you've got your spot. So boom, that 407 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 2: was part one. Yeah, finding girls to work was a 408 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: whole other kettle of fish. 409 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, how do I suppose you've got your one contact 410 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: who owns a sick shop? Yeah she might know, so. 411 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: She knew a couple of people. 412 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: But the main thing that I confronted really early on 413 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 2: is that decriminalized does not mean acceptable or not taboo. 414 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: So like, as you know, most people who are looking 415 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: for a job in New Zealand are going to hit 416 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: up trade me, check it out and trade me. So 417 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 2: we wrote an ad for workers on trade me and 418 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: it was immediately canceled and our money refunded. And they said, no, 419 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 2: trade me as a family friendly website. We do not 420 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: accept job listings of an adult nature. So then I 421 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: talked to Carly and what are we going to do? 422 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: She said, well, this town is full of solo moms 423 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 2: on a benefit. Let's ring up Wins because they've got 424 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: job listings and I. 425 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: Bet you know how. 426 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 2: So Wins was like, now, we do not accept jobs 427 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: of any kind, end listings of an adult nature, and interestingly, 428 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 2: they said something to the effect of, due to the 429 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 2: high wages paid in the adult industry, there is some 430 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: concern that women would feel coerced to go into sex work, 431 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: the idea being that if they were offered a job 432 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 2: that they did not take, that perhaps their benefit would 433 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: be cut, or that they would feel compelled to do 434 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: sex work because, let's face it, we were paying ten 435 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: times the minimum wage. 436 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 4: Yeah that didn't work either. Yeah, so so FI, we've 437 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 4: got one to yeah, oh for two? 438 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: Right, So what ended up working for us was social media. Okay, 439 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: I found some ladies on Tinder, and I'm not completely 440 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: proud of this, but we got to a point where 441 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: the bank account was so low that Carly and I 442 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: were like, we're just gonna say yes to everything. Try everything. 443 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 2: Doesn't work, we'll move to the next thing and try something. 444 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: So what we did is we started putting ads on 445 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: Tinder as straight men looking for straight women and then 446 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: if a woman, and so we sort of scraped the 447 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: internet for pictures of cute guys and just put randoms 448 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: up with fake names. 449 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: Oh god, this is so bad. 450 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: But as soon as the woman swiped right, we immediately 451 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: claimed clean with her. We said, look, this is who 452 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: we are, this is what we're doing, this is why 453 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: we've done it this way. Feel free to click away 454 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 2: or block us if you don't want anything to do 455 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: with us. If you are interested, here's what we're offering. 456 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: And I probably found three or four women that way. 457 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: Wow. 458 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: The other thing that happened was we got a piece 459 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: in the New Zealand Herald which garnered a lot of 460 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: outrage and a lot of hate clicks, but it also 461 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: got us some cover and some media and our first 462 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: crew of women camping from that. Because even with everybody's 463 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: outrage about sex work and there a judgment and their 464 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: feelings about it, there were still an awful lot of 465 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: single moms in Northland who thought to themselves, huh. One 466 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty dollars an hour and free childcare. Yeah, 467 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: that sounds like a deal. 468 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and my hours. Well we're going to talk 469 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: about ethical means. But you know, well, but as you 470 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: say that, judgment and and just the taboo and everything else. 471 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: You know, there was a time when I was in 472 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: Parliament and you know, the kind of the rumor that 473 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: went round that I heard repeatedly, by the way, was 474 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: that in my early days as a young solo mum, 475 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: that I had been a sex worker because I worked 476 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: out of a track stop, and you know, and it 477 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: was just trying to shame me, you know, like it's all. 478 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: It was just desperately trying to shame me. And I 479 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to be honest in my mind, 480 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I just gave it away for free. 481 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: I wish i'd had the. 482 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 4: Young I wish I had the business sense to which 483 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 4: you make some money. 484 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 2: It's fascinating and it's really complicated, and I think a 485 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: part of that tangle is that people are really uncomfortable 486 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: with the idea of women who are poor and solo mums. 487 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: So they should be at the bottom of the pile, right, 488 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: they should be struggling because why don't they have a 489 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: proper husband, why do they get to make one hundred 490 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: and fifty dollars an hour? 491 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: That's not right. They're jumping the queue. Yeah, I think 492 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 3: there's a little bit of that. 493 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too, And I mean my experience wasn't 494 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: that long ago, you know that they were trying to 495 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: shame me for something they say happened twenty years beforehand. 496 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just like this, there's this weird thing 497 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: about sex or being paid or what you're doing in 498 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: your place in society, and how dore. 499 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: You it's immediately when you're getting paid. 500 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: Because let's be clear, I was not extracting women from 501 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: a life of prolonged virginity after which they were going 502 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: to have one marriage for the rest of their lives. 503 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: They're all on social media having hookups on Tinger, Bumble 504 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 2: and Hinge and all these others, and so they would 505 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: come to me, and how many times did I hear it? 506 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: I'm giving it away for free on Tinder. Anyway, I 507 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: might as well get paid. It's not even good sex. 508 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: And so in that context, then let's talk about you know, 509 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: we use you use the word ethical all the time. 510 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: And that's absolutely right. So and that and that and 511 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: that context were you consumed that there was unethical behavior 512 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: going on elsewhere and so you wanted to run something 513 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 1: quite different. 514 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: Well, in the research that I did, it's it's a 515 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 2: big topic and it's complex. But but before talking about 516 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: what other people may or may not be doing, I'll 517 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: tell you what we did, which is that our guiding 518 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: light for the agency was consent. 519 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 3: Consent all the way through. 520 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: So for example, right from the beginning, even before a 521 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: woman was quote unquote chosen by a client, we didn't 522 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: do lineups right, so we just put beautiful pictures of 523 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: them in laingerie with no faces or distinguishing marks online 524 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: and the women told me when they were available, So 525 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: say I'm available between nine and three whilst my child 526 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: isn't care great, she's available nine to three. Then a 527 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: man would call up and say, hey, I'm interested in 528 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: seeing Sasha or whoever at this time, and I would 529 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: find out what I could about him m hm. 530 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 3: And also you can find out a lot just from 531 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: talking to him. 532 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 2: You can tell if he's a native Kiwi or if 533 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: he comes from another part of the world, or sort 534 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: of what age he is, and get sort of a 535 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: vibe and how he presents himself. And then I would 536 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: take that to the lady and I say, would you 537 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: like this booking at this time? And she would tell 538 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 2: me if she wanted to come in, then that's not 539 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: the end of consent, because consent is a moving target, right, 540 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: it can be withdrawn at any time. So then she 541 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: comes in for the booking, and then when she's ready, 542 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: she goes into the service room which had a tinted 543 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: window so that she could see out, but he couldn't 544 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: see in, and she would lock herself in and so 545 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: then she would have the chance to give him a 546 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: look over and make sure, like first of all, if 547 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: I'm gonna is a small town, make sure she doesn't 548 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: know him, right, Oh, good point, And then that she's 549 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: okay with vibe. Yeah, And then she would open the 550 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: door and he would come in, and then I'm not 551 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: done yet, okay. Were the times would they see no, yes, yeah, 552 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: And a few times it was not. We never got like, 553 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: oh that's my dad, Oh that's my uncle. But we 554 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 2: got oh that's my dad mate, that my dad's mate 555 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: that I saw at the barbecue last year. 556 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: Like that happened a couple of times. 557 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, well time, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 558 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: So then he comes in and it's not a bedroom 559 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 2: straight away, right, it's the lounge room. So we use 560 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: these two room suites for our service rooms and the 561 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 2: lounge room. 562 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: And she was also not in underwear. 563 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: She was dressed like for a nice date, and she 564 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: would offer him a complimentary beverage and they would sit 565 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: and talk first before going right to the business. 566 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 3: Right. 567 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 2: So that so that in so many ways, she's evaluating 568 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: him for safety, and he's getting the message in a 569 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 2: very sort of basic way. This is not just some 570 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: hired orifice, right, this is a young woman who is 571 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: here to have a. 572 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 3: Date with you. 573 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: And so all those little steps add up to making 574 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: a much more safe environment. That in the fact that 575 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: we had cameras when they come onto the property, we 576 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: can see their regio, you know, we have their phone numbers, 577 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: all these different and the fact that it's decriminalized, so 578 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: if there was ever a problem, we could just call 579 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 2: the cops. 580 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're not doing anything illegal, you're not doing 581 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: anything wrong. 582 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 2: But always, always, always, when it came down to the 583 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: fact that we called ourselves ethical, it had to do 584 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: with consent and then when you talk about consent, you 585 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: get into things like how is a woman able to 586 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: freely give consent? Well, for one thing, we would never 587 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 2: allow women to be in debt to us. I never 588 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: loaned money. If a woman said, oh, can you can 589 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: you spot me twenty dollars for pizza, I say, I'll 590 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: buy you pizza. Don't worry about it, because if she's 591 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: in debt, then she feels like she can't say no. 592 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: We also had a policy that once clothing has taken, 593 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: it has come off, or sexual contact has started, I'll 594 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: pay her out no matter if she stops the booking 595 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: and he doesn't pay. So that way, if she got 596 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: a weird, squaky vibe part way through the booking, she's say, nah, 597 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: this is done, get out of here, I'm out. 598 00:27:59,160 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 3: You know. 599 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: Fun. 600 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: Yes, that did happen a couple of times, generally around 601 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 3: the holidays. 602 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, because men would come in and often they'd 603 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: had a few drinks and then the sort of a 604 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 2: dodgy situation and the lady would say, no, this. 605 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: Is not happened. 606 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm not feeling safed. 607 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: But I didn't want her to be in a situation 608 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: where she felt like I don't feel safe, but the 609 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: power bill is due. 610 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, yeah, so that's exactly. Yeah, 611 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: you feel like you've got no choice, whereas she still 612 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: felt like she did hear a choice. 613 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 614 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: So I guess from all of that you can kind 615 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: of infer what I have heard happens at some of 616 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 2: the less ethical places, things like lineups, things like keeping 617 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: women in debt, things like turning a blind eye to 618 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: drugs and so on, so that because addicted women are 619 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 2: less likely to say no in a booking, all those 620 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: kinds of things don't happen at every place in New 621 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: zealand don't even happen at a lot of places, but 622 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: happen at. 623 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: Some Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that the industry 624 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: has changed. 625 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: I'm uncomfortable speaking about the industry as a whole because 626 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: I wasn't out there taking surveys, and even those who 627 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: try to, even the NZPC, has a hard time keeping 628 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: a really close eye on exactly what's happening everywhere. Because 629 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: the thing is, the people who are trying to run 630 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: their businesses ethically and be fair to their workers and 631 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: provide a dignified space for clients, they're quite happy to 632 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: put their hands up and have visits from the nz 633 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: PC or from the cops or whoever wants to check 634 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: in on them. 635 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 3: The ones who don't. 636 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: Want to play by the rules are not going to 637 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: are not going to put their hands up or invite 638 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: you in. 639 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: I'm probably going to be doing it on the DL right, 640 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: so you're not going to hear about it. 641 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: So it's very hard to get to get an accurate 642 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: read on what's happening in the industry as a whole, 643 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: even in a small country like New Zealand. 644 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: What would you like people to know about six weekers? 645 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 3: They're doing a job just like you and me. 646 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you can say they're compelled to work, but 647 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: I was compelled to write this book to make money 648 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: to feed my kids. You're compelled to be se year 649 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: right now with me to earn your living. We're all 650 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: compelled to earn a living under capitalism. So as long 651 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: as people are adult and consenting of their own free 652 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: will leave them alone. 653 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and they could be you or me. 654 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: I mean the normal I'm not my age, but you 655 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: know that. 656 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: Your age. 657 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: You know, our most successful sex worker at the batch 658 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: was fifty years old. 659 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: Wow, there you go. 660 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 3: Because think about it a lot of the men. 661 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: Not a lot, but we had a fair number of 662 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: men who would come to us in their eighties or 663 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: their late seventies, and they'd say, look, I don't want 664 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: a twenty five year old. 665 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 3: My granddaughter's twenty five years old. Yuck. 666 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And they also wanted a woman who they could 667 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: talk to a bit like what are they going to 668 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: talk about? 669 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 4: Twenty five year olds talk about TikTok? Yes, completely out 670 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 4: of their debth. I'm interested there you go, No, well 671 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 4: I didn't know that. So what would you like people 672 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 4: to know about about the clients? Ah, that's a whole 673 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 4: other interesting area. 674 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: So I mean, yes, it's very easy for me to 675 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,239 Speaker 2: tell you about we should feel compassion for, you know, 676 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: men who may be experiencing disabilities, or or people who've 677 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: been widowed or you know, we had one clients whose 678 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: wife had a sort of degenerative brain disease. Yes, those 679 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: are easy to feel compassioned for. And absolutely I think 680 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: those people have a right to intimate touch. How many 681 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: people Paula came to us because they were just normal 682 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: guys with normal jobs and normal faces, and nobody touched them. 683 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 3: We're all stuck. 684 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: Behind our laptops, and so few of us have enough 685 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: face to face contact or just human touch. There is 686 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: an epidemic I think of loneliness out there. And most 687 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: of the guys who visited us were just normal guys. 688 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: They weren't They weren't malicious, malignant narcissists, They didn't have 689 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: some major disability or problem. 690 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 3: They were just guys who wanted touch. 691 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah and one of the time, and wanted to experience them. 692 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: And sometimes it was because they had very challenging professional 693 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 2: lives and they weren't able to maintain a relationship. 694 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 3: And yeah, some of them. 695 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: Were cheaters who needed, you know, the next new thing, 696 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: but the vast majority were guys who just wanted a 697 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: nice girl to have a spend an intimate moment with us. 698 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: Well, So the bet Johny ran for three years, So 699 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: why did you close? 700 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: At the end of three years, I had the option 701 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: of renewing my business lease for the motel, And at 702 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: that point it was quite clear that the motel the 703 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: batch was doing better and better, and the motel was 704 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: doing worse and worse, so it was costing me more 705 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: and more money. So if I wanted to continue running 706 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: the agency, I would need to find a way to 707 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: get into a commercial building in downtown Fungaday, which is 708 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: the only area of town where you don't need a 709 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: resource consent to run. And that would mean selling my 710 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: house and putting the proceeds and probably also getting investors in, 711 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: and then really being committed to being the madam of 712 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: for the next twenty years. And I didn't want to 713 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: do that, not only because at that point we'd gotten 714 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: really good at our jobs, and so all of the 715 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: adventured mishaps that we had in the first two years 716 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: that I write about in the book actually kept things 717 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: really exciting and interesting, and by the third year it 718 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: almost got kind of boring. 719 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 3: It was sort of like running a fish and chips shop. 720 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. 721 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: Sixty minute GFY with Cynthia. Sure, no problem. 722 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 723 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: We had this core group of regulars who we didn't 724 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: need to worry about at all. They were just nice guys. 725 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: We had a core group of healthy, reliable women who 726 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: were not doing drugs, who were just happy to come 727 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: in and work and leave again and take their money. 728 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: So there was that it had become less of a challenge. 729 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: But also I'd be honest with you, my daughter was 730 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: coming to intermediate school age, and so many of the 731 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: women who came to the batch I observed had been 732 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 2: really bright young girls in high school who were bored 733 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: in Fungaday and got into some naughty behavior because there 734 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 2: wasn't anything else to do, whether it was drinking or 735 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: lots of sex without adequate protection, and ended up with 736 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: a young child at eighteen nineteen twenty, and then the 737 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 2: guy leaves, and then she's stuck in small town Fungare 738 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: with no qualifications and no means of support, and the 739 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 2: DPB doesn't cut it, and if you get a job 740 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 2: on top of the DPB, you lose your benefit, and 741 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: it's just this tangle of traps and you're lonely. 742 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: So I've been there. You're lonely too, Like it's a 743 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: lonely existence, being the single mum on a benefit, no 744 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: money to do anything or go anywhere, and you just 745 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: feel like you're in a treadmill of Yeah. 746 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: You know, I think you're right. 747 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 2: I don't think the lady said that to me explicitly, 748 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: but a few of them said, oh, this is so fun, 749 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 2: you know, I get to come here and be this sexy, 750 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 2: dangerous woman and not the boring mum. Everyone thinks I 751 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: am like they're sort of expected to hang up all 752 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: the fun at twenty because they have a baby now 753 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 2: and life's meant to be drudgery for the rest of 754 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 2: their lives and yuck, that's no fun. No, anyway, that 755 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 2: was all a very long way of expressing to you 756 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: that I wanted to get my daughter out of Fungata 757 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 2: because I wanted her and into a bigger city, because 758 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 2: I wanted her to see a more broad array of 759 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 2: life choices. And that's not to say that I would 760 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: be horrified if she were to go into sex work 761 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 2: at some point, but that's I wanted her to have 762 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: all of the challenges and all of the possibilities so 763 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: that if she does do sex work at some point, 764 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: that that's her choice, that it's not something that she 765 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: feels backed into. 766 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you literally closed it. It's not like the business. No. 767 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: I sold it for a small fee to one of 768 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: my managers, and sadly she was not able to get 769 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: it off the ground again. No one would rent to 770 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 2: her and she didn't have that pit bull tendency that 771 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,959 Speaker 2: I have. And then COVID hit and let's be honest, 772 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody was getting a business off the 773 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 2: ground at that point, and so it never happened. 774 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: So what have you been doing ses you moved to Auckland. 775 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: You've written this book obviously, which is time consuming, right. 776 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 3: Not really, I knocked it out in about three months. 777 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: You're amazing. 778 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: Well, I've been thinking about these ideas and taking notes 779 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: and sort of. 780 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 3: Thinking it over for the past several years. 781 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: No, I've been doing a lot of ghostwriting and editing, 782 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 2: getting back to my writing. And that also is really 783 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 2: helpful because you know, at the Batch, even though the 784 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 2: managers only worked two to three days a week, they 785 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: were really long hours twelve fourteen sixteen hour days. And 786 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: as a freelance writer, I can work from home and 787 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: I can be there when my kids get home from 788 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 2: school and be really engaged and involved in their lives. 789 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: So it's been awesome. Ah, fantastic. 790 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:40,399 Speaker 3: Okay. 791 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: A parting segment on the podcast, I'd love to know 792 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 1: what was the best advice you were given. 793 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 3: Years ago? 794 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 2: My dad said to me, cultivate an inner life, because 795 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: if you have a rich inner life, then you don't 796 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: need anything. You can be in a little hut in 797 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: the woods with a musical instrument and book and you'll 798 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: be happy ass And he. 799 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 3: Was really right. 800 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: Wow. 801 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 802 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 2: When I first came to New Zealand, I literally had nothing. 803 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 3: I had no furniture. 804 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: I managed to rent a tiny little flat with no furniture, 805 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 2: and in the first few days I had a bowl 806 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 2: that I was eating off on the ground, a bowl 807 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: and a cup, and I had a little music player 808 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: and I'd gotten some Mozart CDs from the library and 809 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 2: it felt really homey. 810 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 3: Actually I got furniture. 811 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: Does it also mean to feel comfortable about who you 812 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: are and being at peace with you? Is it? I 813 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm reading something into it. 814 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess so. I think that's a part of it. 815 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: But also it's just sort of if you have those 816 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 2: inner resources, then you don't need to buy anybody's gold 817 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 2: chains or fall for what they have to sell you. 818 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 3: You can be completely self sufficient. 819 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like it. 820 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 3: Okay. 821 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: The podcast is called ask Me Anything, and so far 822 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: I've done all the asking. So this is an opportunity 823 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: if you want to take it to turn the tables 824 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: and you may ask me something. 825 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 3: Sure. 826 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think you mentioned that you've been a solo 827 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: mum m right. Would you think you could have got 828 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: by on the DPB today. 829 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: Just I don't think I got by then, you know, 830 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: like it's just just such a day to day struggle. 831 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: Like you know, I sort of people occasionally say to me, now, 832 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: you know, you must be so stress and you're so 833 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: busy and all that sort of thing, and I say, well, 834 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: you've got no idea. Stress is you know, looking for 835 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: coins down the back of your couch because you can't 836 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: buy milk. Stress is genuinely wondering whether you'll have a 837 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: roof over your head the following week because will you 838 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: mate rent? You know, Like, so the DPB is not enough. 839 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: It never was and it certainly wouldn't be today. 840 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think when we're going to have 841 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 2: if anybody wants to have a real, meaty, valuable conversation 842 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 2: about sex work, then that really has to be a 843 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: part of it. If we don't think that people should 844 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 2: have the right to do this work, what are we putting. 845 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 3: In its place? Yeah, to help them achieve independence. 846 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: And I mean, we've got one of the most generous 847 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: systems in the world, and thank goodness, we've got it, 848 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: and we can give people help. But I've been I've 849 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: been thanked and I've been criticized, and I've been all 850 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: parts of it, and I get that completely. About the 851 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: thought of someone trying to live a life on the 852 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: DPB because they have no other choices is certainly what 853 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: always motivated me to try and give them choices. So, 854 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I'm most proud of was, 855 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, there was free education for all teen mums 856 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: because if I got them educated, they were going to 857 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: have a bigger, better life and the children would well. 858 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and which is amazing. But what I didn't realize 859 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 2: until I had boots on the ground in this situation 860 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 2: is the free education is just part of it. Because 861 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: do they have a reliable car to get to the education? 862 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: Do they have enough cash to buy the laptop that 863 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 2: they're gonna need. 864 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 3: Who's going to take care of their kids? 865 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, they study, did all of that. 866 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 2: What if they've been out of school for a while, 867 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: is there a mentor who's going to help with study skills? 868 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 3: You did all that? 869 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: We did because you're exactly right. And actually even in 870 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: Fong Ray, it was one of the old schools that 871 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: so the educations we moved out and then we would 872 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: get wonderful local people who would do that full wrap 873 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: around child care. You know, it was without a doubt. Look, 874 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't perfect, and I'm sure that there'll be. But 875 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: I went to pretty much every single one of them, 876 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: and everything you're saying, it was complicated. You couldn't just 877 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: go here it is. 878 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,959 Speaker 3: Say thank you, go to school it's free. 879 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and all at different levels of looming 880 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: abilities and so trying to work within there and then 881 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: Kittie's sack and you know, how do they cope? Say, well, 882 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: I found it really lonely, and certainly talking to some 883 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: of them, they're trapped in crummy, little damp you know 884 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: houses where you know, just get me out, yeah stuff. 885 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 3: Yeah. 886 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 2: So it's the multifaceted nature of any kind of assistance 887 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: that really I think needs to be recognized. 888 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's certainly not easy. And as you say, 889 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: people don't live their lives in one nice little, you know, 890 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: wrapped up sentence that we can then put a policy 891 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: or run something around us. Certainly, and your evidence of 892 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: that as well, so I get it. Hey, Antonya, thank 893 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: you so much for coming in today. Okay, everybody, the 894 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,479 Speaker 1: book Madam is in stores, so this is your chance 895 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: to go and get it. You should have rushed out 896 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: and brought it halfway through listening because a it's a 897 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: fascinating book and this is a fastin. So thank you 898 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: so much for your time today. 899 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, Paulow. 900 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: And that's it for another episode of Ask Me Anything. 901 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything 902 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or where you go and get your podcast. 903 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: Go and look at some of the past episodes. They 904 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: are fun. I'll be back next Sunday with another fabulous guest. 905 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm Paula Bennett. Ask Me Anything. Goodbye,