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Speaker 1: Yielda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New Zealand's

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Speaker 2: media industry is facing arguably the biggest shakeup in years.

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Speaker 2: Stuff is closing a newspaper and launching a six pm bulletin.

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Speaker 2: TV and Z sent execs on a thirty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: LA jaunt amidst mass layoffs and a lengthy plan to

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Speaker 2: get back to profitability, and all this while we're readying

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Speaker 2: ourselves for a final goodbye to news Hub. The government

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Speaker 2: has finally come to the table with a plan to

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Speaker 2: help the industry.

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Speaker 1: But is it enough.

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Speaker 2: Today on the front page, The Herald's media insider Shane

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Speaker 2: Curry checks in with us as the media industry continues

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Speaker 2: to go through the motions.

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Speaker 1: The end of Newshub this week.

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Speaker 2: Shane, we've spoken to you a few times about this

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Speaker 2: so far this year. What have you heard from inside

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Speaker 2: their Flower Streets studios as they prepare to wrap things up.

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Speaker 2: Has everyone kind of accepted their.

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Speaker 3: Fate, basically been going through a grief process.

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Speaker 4: I guess, Chelsea, and the initial shock has subsided. A

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Speaker 4: lot of people are lining up new jobs. We know

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Speaker 4: around probably a good two dozen people are heading to

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Speaker 4: Stuff to be part of the new six pm bulletin. There,

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Speaker 4: I would say yes, resignation to the fact that it

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Speaker 4: is happening. It will still be a huge shock and

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Speaker 4: an impact for people on Friday. It will be a

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Speaker 4: very emotional day. And we are hearing lots of different

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Speaker 4: things that are going.

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Speaker 3: On at the moment.

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Speaker 4: For instance, there's a story that I'm working on at

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Speaker 4: the moment around cut price advertising that Warner Brothers Discovery

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Speaker 4: will launch as part of the new six pm bulletin.

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Speaker 4: They want to try and I guess, hoover up as

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Speaker 4: much of that advertising revenue that's left in the market

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Speaker 4: as possible. They pay Stuff a flat fee for the

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Speaker 4: new bulletin, so they know their fixed costs and so

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Speaker 4: they will be to maneuver their advertising revenue accordingly and

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Speaker 4: without being shackled to a hugely expensive newsroom.

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Speaker 3: I guess they can see a new business model emerging that.

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Speaker 2: Fixed rate cost. Will that help them in terms of longevity?

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Speaker 1: Do you think?

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Speaker 3: I think it well.

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Speaker 4: I think when we say longevity, I mean we're talking

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Speaker 4: here about terrestrial television. And I had a big interview

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Speaker 4: with TV and z's chief executive Jody O'Donnell last week

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Speaker 4: TV and Z is planning for the option to turn

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Speaker 4: off terrestrial slash linear television by twenty thirty, whereas Warner

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Speaker 4: Brothers Discovery the owner of Three, have been a lot

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Speaker 4: more bullish around the timeframe. They've been talking two or

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Speaker 4: three years now. That doesn't mean the end of news

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Speaker 4: per se. It just means the platform changes and we

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Speaker 4: watch television through digital streaming platforms. Both broadcasters and indeed

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Speaker 4: the wider media industry have always been gearing up for

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Speaker 4: that switchover to digital streaming and digital listening. You know,

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Speaker 4: obviously the likes of podcasts have really taken off in

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Speaker 4: the last five years, and we're seeing that emerge now

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Speaker 4: in the traditional television sense.

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Speaker 2: Is that kind of like the converse we keep having

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Speaker 2: every five years or so about the dying newspapers and

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Speaker 2: everything moving to digital and it hasn't really quite happened.

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Speaker 1: At all yet.

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Speaker 4: Well, the interesting thing for the digital publishing companies such

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Speaker 4: as The Herald owned by ms ME and stuff is

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Speaker 4: that they've probably had a longer period in order to

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Speaker 4: sort out their new digital business models. Whereas for television,

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Speaker 4: the revenue's kind of fallen off a cliff, really suddenly

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Speaker 4: and sharply in the last twelve months. And that's why

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Speaker 4: we've had these big announcements in the last three months

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Speaker 4: about the closure of news Hub, the cutbacks at TVNZ

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Speaker 4: which will continue into the next financial years. So the

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Speaker 4: digital publishing companies have had a bit of an advantage

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Speaker 4: in that sense, and of course we've launched new revenue

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Speaker 4: models around digital subscriptions and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But you're right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, while people have been harping on for years

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Speaker 4: about the end of newspapers, the fact is that audiences

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Speaker 4: for news have never been stronger. The problem for the

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Speaker 4: news publishers and the media owners is trying to sort

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Speaker 4: out the business model to sustain newsrooms. And you know,

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Speaker 4: both ms ME and Stuff have gone into the digit

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Speaker 4: subscription business now and that revenue complements the traditional advertising revenue.

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Speaker 5: And lastly, before I opened it up to any questions,

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Speaker 5: can I just acknowledge news Hub, who are covering this

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Speaker 5: press conference for a final time after thirty five years.

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Speaker 5: It is an organization that has played a big part

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Speaker 5: in the lives of many Kiwis and I just want

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Speaker 5: to thank the news Hub is both past and present

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Speaker 5: for their contributions and for all that you have given

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Speaker 5: over the better part of four decades.

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Speaker 2: The Stuff produced six PM bulletin will launch this Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Of course, first off, do you think they've kept the

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Speaker 1: right talent?

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Speaker 4: I think in Samantha Hayes, they have a great news reader.

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Speaker 4: She will face really difficult I think period where you know,

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Speaker 4: mourning the loss of a newsroom that she's been very

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Speaker 4: closely attached to for many years, and then suddenly having

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Speaker 4: to lift herself, you know, basically within forty eight hours

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Speaker 4: for the new era, and so that will be difficult,

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Speaker 4: not just for sam but for many of the people

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Speaker 4: who are across to Stuff. I think they'll do a

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Speaker 4: great job. I hear that they've got some really whiz

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Speaker 4: bang graphics and a visual virtual reality kind of studio

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Speaker 4: in the making that they'll be initially screening it or

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Speaker 4: producing it out of three's current studios and Flower Street,

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Speaker 4: but by October they actually have to move. Originally they

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Speaker 4: were looking at the existing newsroom in Ponsonby, but unfortunately

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Speaker 4: for them, the studio dimensions or the floor dimensions in

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Speaker 4: that building don't make for a great studio. So they're

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Speaker 4: now looking to lease as I understand it, a studio

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Speaker 4: in Boston Road, where previously three has produced Petty Gower

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Speaker 4: has issues and the Project.

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Speaker 2: Three News is promising a new vibrant look and feel

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Speaker 2: with opportunities for audience engagement. Now what do you think

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Speaker 2: that'll look like and does it seem like they are

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Speaker 2: targeting a different audience than news Hub.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think they will first and foremost try and

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Speaker 4: hold on to as many of the existing viewers as possible.

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Speaker 4: And on any given night, TV three will generate around

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Speaker 4: two undred thousand viewers for at six o'clock news, so

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Speaker 4: Stuff will quite rightly be looking to retain as many

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Speaker 4: of them as possible. And I think in the initial

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Speaker 4: weeks there'll be a huge curiosity factor about the new bulletin.

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Speaker 4: I think as time goes on, they really will need

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Speaker 4: to try and build a new audience, as you say,

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Speaker 4: and I think through their digital expertise, you know both

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Speaker 4: Stuff and ends in me having got lots of experience

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Speaker 4: and knowing all their digital audiences, just how they can

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Speaker 4: bring some of that thinking into a traditional bulletin.

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Speaker 3: And I think what we'll see potentially is.

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Speaker 4: Interaction around polls or quizzes or short or sharp perhaps

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Speaker 4: bulletins and basically a shake up of what we're traditionally

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Speaker 4: used to seeing at six o'clock.

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Speaker 3: Of course, but it's a huge ask on stuff.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 4: This is three hundred and sixty five bulletins a year,

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Speaker 4: over and above the usual journalistic output. It's a huge

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Speaker 4: tall order for that newsroom.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of stuff you've written, the companies Announstead will stop

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Speaker 2: publishing Sunday News after sixty one years. The closure comes

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Speaker 2: and met a raft of closes at Stuff. Community titles

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Speaker 2: similarly en zed me as proposing cutbacks of several of

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Speaker 2: its regional newsrooms. A lot of specialist magazines have also

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Speaker 2: closed down. Is there any hope for regional newsrooms and

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Speaker 2: niche publications or is this a sign of the times?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a combination of those things, and

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Speaker 4: I still am an optimist around regional news. I think

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Speaker 4: both end and Me and Stuff quite rightly point to

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Speaker 4: the fact, along with Allied Press in the South Island,

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Speaker 4: three privately owned media companies that invest the most in

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Speaker 4: regional New Zealand journalism as opposed to the two state

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Speaker 4: owned companies. So I think, first and foremost it's important

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Speaker 4: to state that there are still journalists in these regions,

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Speaker 4: and so I'm still an optimist in that sense. But

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Speaker 4: I also see what's happening here, and that is a

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Speaker 4: redirection of resources, I guess, to reflect audience demand. And

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Speaker 4: so for the likes of us that enzed me, our

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Speaker 4: newsrooms in Wellington and christ Church do need to be

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Speaker 4: beefed up to reflect the population of those two big cities.

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Speaker 4: And also you know the news that is emanating from

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Speaker 4: those regions.

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Speaker 2: Well, there has to be huge value in having people

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Speaker 2: on the ground though Hey just look at Hawk's Bay

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Speaker 2: and the floods for just one example.

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Speaker 1: Is it not translating to money in the pockets? Though?

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Speaker 2: For media companies having so many people on the ground

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Speaker 2: in regions, well, I think.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, newsrooms are very expensive to run. You know, they're

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Speaker 3: as huge.

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Speaker 4: If you'd look at news humbalone, it's more than twenty

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Speaker 4: million dollars a year, and so this is a huge investment.

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Speaker 3: But of course there's a return on that as well.

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Speaker 4: I mean, a lot of us get into the game

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Speaker 4: to make a difference to the world, and that's especially

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Speaker 4: so in lots of areas of New Zealand. And you're

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Speaker 4: right You only need to look at the experience of

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Speaker 4: Hawk's Bay last year and Gisbon and Wider and so

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Speaker 4: forth to know just how important it was to have

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Speaker 4: actually not just a digital news provider, but when the

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Speaker 4: power went out sometimes the only source of news would

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Speaker 4: have been through a battery powered transistor radio or a

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Speaker 4: print newspaper, and so we saw that in Hawk's Bay

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Speaker 4: last year. But certainly I think the business models are

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Speaker 4: changing rapidly as a whole, and then within different sectors

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Speaker 4: of the media industry as well, whether that's through regions

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Speaker 4: geographically or through different platforms such as audio or vision.

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Speaker 4: So I think at all times the media companies are

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Speaker 4: looking at the return, but also knowing the importance of

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Speaker 4: their op.

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Speaker 2: So I've read some executives at TV and Z maybe

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Speaker 2: in hot Water over a trip to LA Can you

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Speaker 2: tell me a bit more about this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I did a big piece for the Weekend

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Speaker 4: Herald and for NZED Herald dot co dot NZ last

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Speaker 4: weekend on just the demise of news Hub. TV and

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Speaker 4: Z is also facing similar difficulties. Now, I'm of the

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Speaker 4: belief that as it's state owned, always has a backstop

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Speaker 4: in terms of being governorate. I just can't see it

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Speaker 4: being allowed to fail. I do see big changes ahead

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Speaker 4: for TV ands ED and indeed they've introduced a five

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Speaker 4: year digital strategy. It's an all of business transformation. It

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Speaker 4: means that they're taking their staff along with them, or

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Speaker 4: trying to at least to help them understand why it's

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Speaker 4: so important to be able to deliver news and content

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Speaker 4: digitally first.

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Speaker 3: But at the same.

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Speaker 4: Time as they were were proposing restructures and the closure

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Speaker 4: of shows such as fearg and Sunday and then being

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Speaker 4: taken to the employment court by the journalist union. At

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Speaker 4: the same time all of that was happening, three senior

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Speaker 4: leaders made a trip to the LA screenings to talk

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Speaker 4: to overseas studios producers, see what's coming in the pipeline

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Speaker 4: and obviously be on line for that. Now, by and large,

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Speaker 4: most people understand the need and importance of overseas business trips.

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Speaker 4: But the problem for TV INZ in this particular instance

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Speaker 4: is one of the executives posted social media images of

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Speaker 4: all three of them whining and dining at places like

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Speaker 4: Chateau Memont, socializing, having a great time, whereas back here

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Speaker 4: all hell was breaking loose, and so I guess that

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Speaker 4: was just as one person said to me, someone very

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Speaker 4: close to TV and Z said to me, it just

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Speaker 4: sort of reflects, possibly on this occasion, at least to

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Speaker 4: lack of EQ trying to understand just what's happening back

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Speaker 4: home and sort of you know, having this great time

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Speaker 4: in La not a great look.

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Speaker 2: What is interesting because there is a huge need for

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Speaker 2: those business trips, especially to scout new shows and get

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Speaker 2: your hands on them. I read somewhere that three got

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Speaker 2: into real hot water when they lost home and away

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Speaker 2: to TV and Z for instance, And people probably don't

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Speaker 2: realize the impact of those kind of decisions and trips, right.

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Speaker 2: And look, I'm sure if I saw what ENZ means

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Speaker 2: EXAC team spent on traveling to conferences and the like,

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Speaker 2: I would actually cry.

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Speaker 1: But it is the actual cost of business, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: That's right, As I say, I don't think anyone begrudges

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Speaker 4: business trips, as you say, being there, whether that's frontline

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Speaker 4: journalism or as an exec you know, traveling to some

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Speaker 4: of these trade shows, it is really important. But portraying

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Speaker 4: yourself time and time place is also equally important. And

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Speaker 4: I think that's why I rubbed up so many people

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Speaker 4: the wrong way, and TV and Z themselves have said,

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Speaker 4: you know, the business trip was important, and you know

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Speaker 4: it was important for our future, but the social media

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Speaker 4: posts wit inappropriate, so that acknowledged that to.

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Speaker 1: Staff and you mentioned.

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Speaker 2: Of course, TV and ZED has outlined a plan to

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Speaker 2: return to profit ability by twenty thirty and become a

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Speaker 2: digital first organization.

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Speaker 1: I saw some.

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Speaker 2: Suggestions that a twenty four hour news channel could even

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Speaker 2: be on the cards from TV in set.

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Speaker 1: Is that just a pipe dream at this stage?

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Speaker 4: I saw that report, and I saw the commentary from

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Speaker 4: TV set. I suspect absolutely, they definitely want to launch

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Speaker 4: new channels digitally. I think a twenty four hour news

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Speaker 4: channel solely produced out of New Zealand that's a huge

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Speaker 4: pipe dream and very unlikely. I suspect what they might

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Speaker 4: look at you you might still have an hour or

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Speaker 4: two of local news, but then the rest of the

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Speaker 4: time it's a feed from ITV, BBC, ABC, whoever their

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Speaker 4: content partners are.

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Speaker 2: Do you think traditional broadcast TV should still have a

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Speaker 2: role to play in this country or do you think

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Speaker 2: the end is no?

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't think you can fight the tide. I

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Speaker 4: think you always have to follow your audience and how

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Speaker 4: they're watching news, devouring news, and as I say, news

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Speaker 4: is still as strong as ever in terms of audience engagement.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's big important issues that we as a

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Speaker 4: media industry need to adreas around trust and quality and

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Speaker 4: so forth. So the platforms will change. It's like we

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Speaker 4: were talking about earlier around the demise, so called demise

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Speaker 4: of newspapers.

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Speaker 3: Well, newspapers are still here.

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Speaker 4: It's just that they complement a digital first mentality in

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Speaker 4: our two biggest digital publishing companies. And it's the same

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Speaker 4: for TV and Z. People will still want to watch

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Speaker 4: TV shows if they're high quality and so forth, but

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Speaker 4: they're watching them now through smart TVs or through their

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Speaker 4: laptops or mainly through their around phones. That applies to

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Speaker 4: high level production shows and other applies to news.

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Speaker 2: And what do you think radio isn't suffering as much

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Speaker 2: as other parts of the media industry. I guess do

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Speaker 2: companies need to invest more in audio? One use the podcast?

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Speaker 4: Perhaps?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a leading question. The young Chelsea.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure you'd be the first to say we should

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Speaker 4: be investing more in audio. Ad luck, I often hear

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Speaker 4: radio described as the cockroach of the industry because it

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Speaker 4: survives everything. And I think radio, though has evolved, There's

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Speaker 4: no doubt about that. In terms of the podcast we're

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Speaker 4: on today, the rise of digital audio. But I do

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Speaker 4: think radio survives because it's portable. You can be doing

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Speaker 4: two or three different things at once and still engaging

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Speaker 4: in the content. I think, you know, it has a

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Speaker 4: really critical role, and I do think we have seen

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Speaker 4: investment in audio and I think that will continue across

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Speaker 4: the board. I think it's a vital part of the

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Speaker 4: media ecosystem and.

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Speaker 1: We've saved the good news until last.

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Speaker 2: The government has announced some measures to help the industry out.

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Speaker 6: The Government will progress the Fair Digital News Bargeting Bill

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Speaker 6: to support local media companies to earn revenue for the

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Speaker 6: news they produce. Secondly, we're going to deal with some

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Speaker 6: of the outdated legislation which restricts advertising on Sunday in

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Speaker 6: public holidays. Thirdly, we've been looking at the screen production

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Speaker 6: rebreak criteria and will tweak the eligibility criteria for the

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Speaker 6: rebate for local shows with a strong industry and cultural value.

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Speaker 1: Will they have much of an impact?

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Speaker 6: Do you think?

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Speaker 3: There's various aspects to it.

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Speaker 4: First and foremost, there's some tactical and that is the

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Speaker 4: lifting of the ban on Sunday morning television advertising and

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Speaker 4: the ban on advertising across platforms on certain public holidays

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Speaker 4: such as Yester Sunday and Good Friday. And then we

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Speaker 4: have seen the likes of Shortened Street that will become

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Speaker 4: eligible for the screen production rebate, which is forty percent

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Speaker 4: rebate for a twenty million dollar odd show to produce.

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Speaker 4: Now that is significant for that particular title and for

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Speaker 4: TV and Z and for all the fans of Shortened Street.

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Speaker 3: So that's important.

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Speaker 4: The bigger piece is really the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill,

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Speaker 4: and that was a bill that Labour introduced when it

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Speaker 4: was in government. National initially under Melissa Lee as Broadcasting Minister,

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Speaker 4: didn't really have that much fondness for the bill, But

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Speaker 4: over time and as Paul Goldsmith has taken the ministerial reins,

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Speaker 4: he's met with a lot of people in the industry,

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Speaker 4: a lot of the CEOs, spoken to people on the

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Speaker 4: frontline and realizes that yes, something does need to be

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Speaker 4: introduced legislatively to even up the playing field. And there

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Speaker 4: I'm talking in particular what Facebook, Google and the other

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Speaker 4: tech giants are or aren't funding in terms of they

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Speaker 4: use a lot of news to drive their business models,

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Speaker 4: but they're not paying for that news content at the moment,

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Speaker 4: and so that bill is designed to introduce a level

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Speaker 4: playing field to get those companies to the negotiating table

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Speaker 4: to actually pay a fear a fee for the content

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Speaker 4: that they're.

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Speaker 3: Using, and so that will play out in the next

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Speaker 3: little while.

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Speaker 4: I fully suspect that Labour will support the bill, given

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Speaker 4: the other ones who introduced it in the first place.

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Speaker 4: The act Party has invoked the agreed to disagree principles

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Speaker 4: of the coalition deal, so they're not part of it,

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Speaker 4: but certainly National New Zealand first, and I expect, as

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Speaker 4: I say, Labor to support it. And so we'll see

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Speaker 4: those changes coming in later in the year.

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Speaker 2: And Chane, it's been a whirlwind for the media industry

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Speaker 2: to say the least. Are things going to finally settle

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Speaker 2: down or can we expect more upheaval in future?

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Speaker 4: I think now we will see more upheaval. Whether we

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Speaker 4: see the scale of another news hub remains to be seen,

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Speaker 4: but I certainly for the foreseeable future anyway, and I'm

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Speaker 4: talking the next six to twelve months, I still think

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Speaker 4: it's going to be pretty tough out there, pretty challenging

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Speaker 4: for the media companies now. Once the economy does start

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Speaker 4: coming right again, I do think better days are ahead

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Speaker 4: and I think already we're seeing new models emerge about

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Speaker 4: you know, where people are devouring news and where media

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Speaker 4: companies can earn revenue, and I think you know, there

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Speaker 4: are It's a terrible cliche, but there are green shoots

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Speaker 4: starting to emerge and that that's encouraging. And I think

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Speaker 4: you only need to see the engagement on digital news

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Speaker 4: websites such as Indian Hero dot co and stuff and

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Speaker 4: others to realize that there's still a massive opportunity for

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Speaker 4: our media companies.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Shane.

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Speaker 2: That said, for this episode of The Front Page, you

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzed Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page

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Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Seals with sound engineer Patty Fox.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcast, and tune in tomorrow for another look

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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.