1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Sex offender 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein's files have exploded back into the headlines with 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: millions of newly released documents exposing elite networks and power dynamics. 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 2: More than three million pages of material have been released, 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 2: including documents, images and video. So what does this mean 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 2: for trust in traditional power structures and is it only 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: a matter of time before New Zealand politicians are caught 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: up in the saga? Today on the Front Page, University 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: of Otago International Relations professor Robert Patman is with us 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: to unpack the international ramifications. So Robert, what is the 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: latest in regards to the Epstein files. 14 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 3: Well, we've learned on Friday, the thirty first of January 15 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 3: the Department of Justice under mister Trump have released three 16 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: million files relating to the Epstein case, one hundred and 17 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 3: eighty thousand images and two thousand videos. So this has 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: just happened in the last few days. So obviously it's 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: very difficult to give a definitive verdict. It will take 20 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 3: probably a month or so to work through the implications. 21 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: Although Todd blanche, the Justice official who mister Trump has 22 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 3: appointed to take care of this issue, he said that 23 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: marks the end of the Epstein case in terms of 24 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: documents released. The Democrats have quickly indicated that's not the case. 25 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 3: It's supposed to be another three million documents. And these 26 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: documents were released, by the way, a month after they 27 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: were legally supposed to be released on the nineteenth of December, 28 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: So the government had actually broken the law in not 29 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: releasing them earlier. And I do not think we have 30 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: heard the end of this by any means. The government 31 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: obviously wants to draw a line over this. The government 32 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: may not be successful in that attempt to contain the 33 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: pressures for more releases. 34 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: And are they heavily redacted, because I know that the 35 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 2: first trunch kind of were. 36 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: Apparently they are heavily redacted. But what we're learning is 37 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: just the extent to which Epstein had embedded himself or 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:44,559 Speaker 3: interwoven himself into the social lives of so many prominent people, 39 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 3: not just in the United States. 40 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: Either, And who are some of those people? 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 3: Well, I think the probably top of the list at 42 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 3: the moment is Andrew Mountbatten, the former JUPI of York. 43 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 3: There is also connections where we already know about the Clintons, 44 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: but also Peter Mandelsson, the former British ambassadors to the US, 45 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: and it seems the Princess of Norway. There seems to 46 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: be quite a cosmopolitan aspect to Epstein's activities. He owned 47 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: five properties, in one of which was in Paris, and 48 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: obviously he also had a private island. But he had 49 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: close contacts, much closer than many wanted to concede with, 50 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: not just Andrew Mountbatten, but also his former wife Sarah Ferguson. 51 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: These names actually linked to these global business and tech elites, 52 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: and like you said, royalty and politicians are they're obviously 53 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: under scrutiny again now because of these meetings and correspondents 54 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: that are that are coming up in the new files. 55 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: What does that suggest about I suppose you've already said 56 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: he's very tightly interwoven in politics, but also what that 57 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: means behind gives us a glimpse behind that curtain, doesn't it. 58 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: It does, But it also shows that this was highly organized. 59 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: This was not just a very wealthy person occasionally seeking 60 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 3: out the company of the rich and the famous. This 61 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: was a pretty systematic effort, and we've only mentioned a 62 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: few of the names, and I think until the files 63 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: are given a thorough airing, I think it would be 64 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: unfair to invoke names that have been speculated on. So 65 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: another interesting thing Chelsea that seems to be floating around 66 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: all that hasn't been confirmed yet is that there were 67 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: perhaps twenty five co conspirators. So far, the only people 68 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 3: charged with the sex trafficking crimes have been Gislain Maxwell, 69 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 3: who's currently serving time for that offense, although in quite 70 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: comfortable conditions we understand. And also Epstein was also charged 71 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: but apparently committed suicide, so that. 72 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: Was twenty nineteen. 73 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: But apparently there is evidence that there were twenty five 74 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: other co conspirators, and some the charges seem to be 75 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: that Epstein arranged for rich and powerful men to receive 76 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:29,239 Speaker 3: the intimate services of numerous women, both young and very young, 77 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: and also adult. Some of those probleinent men have not 78 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: yet their identities have not been revealed, so I think 79 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 3: this is going to be a continuing story. It has 80 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: huge implications, of course for the US political system, but 81 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: also I think has huge international implications as well. 82 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: I've seen posts of some people talking about various celebrities, 83 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: you know, everyone from Sydney Sweeney, Adam Sandler, you know, 84 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: one of the Backstreet Boys, even being mentioned in the file. 85 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: But I suppose how damning is that necessarily just being 86 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: mentioned versus being implicated. 87 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: I don't think being mentioned is damning per se. I'm 88 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: sure that Epstein did have every Just because you had 89 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 3: contact with it doesn't meant mean that you partake, you 90 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: participated in some of the services you provided, and some 91 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: of the people have been seen to be genuinely shocked 92 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: by the revelations about Epstein's life. What is surprising, though, 93 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 3: is the number of people, even after Epstein faced the 94 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 3: first set of charges in two thousand and eight, who 95 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: continued with their friendship as if nothing had happened. And 96 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: these are very prominent people. 97 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, that timeline is probably being very closely looked at. 98 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, I think so. And there is still a 99 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 3: suspicion I think amongst people at large, a very powerful 100 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: and rich people are being protected. And this is certainly 101 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 3: the suspicion that's been directed at the Trump administration at 102 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 3: the moment. Mister Trump himself, of course, was Epstein's closest 103 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: friend for something like fifteen years. Before they fell out 104 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 3: around about two thousand and five. So and Michael Wolfe, 105 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: who's been a biographer of mister Trump. I think he's 106 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: written four books for them, and he appears in a 107 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: regular podcast called Inside Trump's Head. He certainly has documented 108 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: quite extensively Trump's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein. I think the opponents, 109 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: particularly the Democrats in the United States and some Republicans, 110 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: that there is a biparty sare move It be wrong 111 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: to depict this in polarization terms. There's a lot of 112 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 3: Republicans who are deeply concerned about what's happening, and I 113 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 3: think that's entirely logical because I think most people may 114 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: have different politics, but they may not have different moral codes. 115 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is that Thomas Massey from the Republican 116 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: Party and also Rohanna from the Democrats have got together 117 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: and they have been really a powerful force, and they're 118 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 3: demanding the further release of the remaining documents. More than 119 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: three million documents apparently have not been released, according to them. 120 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 3: So I think this is a bit like Watergate. Those 121 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: listeners and viewers who have long memories Watergate started off 122 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: with the sort of complete blanket denials and then partial denials, 123 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: and eventually the president of the day, Richard Nixon, was 124 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: forced to resign in disgrace. But it took place over 125 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: two years. It didn't happen immediately. I have a feeling 126 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: the Epstein case will probably make the Watergate case look 127 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: quite small in comparison. It has huge domestic and international implications. 128 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: Well, and of course with Watergate as well, the denials 129 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: were almost worse than what happened in the first place. 130 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 3: Yes, I think this issue has the potential to fundamentally 131 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: undermine the Trump administration. The Trump administration held off releasing 132 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 3: those documents until the pressure became overwhelming, and then mister 133 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: Trump I think, although he put a good gloss on 134 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: it and said that, you know, he had no problems 135 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 3: with that, he had no great enthusiasm to release them. 136 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: And we've also seen splits within America's Within mister Trump's 137 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: political base, the America Great Again Movement O MEGA and 138 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: for example Great Trump supporters have one or two of 139 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: them have parted company with him on this issue. They 140 00:09:53,600 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 3: feel that he should have been much more transparent. 141 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 4: One week for Congress to release the Epstein files, why 142 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 4: not just do it now? 143 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: Now? 144 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 5: It's not the question that I mind. It's your additive. 145 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 5: I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way 146 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 5: you ask these questions. You start off with a man 147 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 5: who's highly respected asking them a horrible, insubordinate and just 148 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 5: a terrible question. And you could even ask that same 149 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 5: exact question nicely. You're all psyched. Somebody psyches you over 150 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 5: at ABC, and you're going to psychon. You're a terrible 151 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 5: person and a terrible reporter. As far as the Epstein 152 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 5: files is, I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. 153 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: How might the likes of Russia and China and the 154 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: like use these files or do you think they're sitting 155 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 2: back and watching quietly and waiting to see exactly how 156 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: they can use or dissect this information for themselves. 157 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: No, I don't think that sitting back. 158 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 3: I think they're fully aware of what's happening, and they 159 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: simply will not publicly disclose how much they know. One 160 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: of the things that I think has caused great concern 161 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: in the United States is that Epstein rub Shoulders were 162 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 3: many leaders, including the leadership of Israel. He's close friends 163 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: with a former labor prime minister of Israel and also 164 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: advised mister Putin on how to handle Trump. They made 165 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: visits to Moscow. I think mister Putin and perhaps mister 166 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: Niehna who of Israel, probably know more about the Epstein 167 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: files than most of us do. They are very good 168 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: blackmail material in there, and rich and famous people as 169 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: well as prominent people. They're obviously is obviously contained some 170 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 3: very sensitive information. And we mustn't forget about the victims 171 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: in this case. And one thing that's caused real fury. 172 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 3: There have been claims by some critics of the administration 173 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: that it's evident, even with this release, the latest release 174 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: of three million documents, that not all victims' names have 175 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: been redacted, which should have been a given. 176 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: Really, that's the thing, Yeah, but base one. 177 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 3: So a lot of people are going to be subject 178 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 3: to their lives already have already having suffered in the 179 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: most traumatic possible way, may have to go through that 180 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 3: trauma again to some degree. So you know, we have 181 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 3: to not see this purely in political terms, but in 182 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: human terms as well, and it's very important those people 183 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: get justice. 184 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: Do you think that they will get justice? 185 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 3: Though it depends on the pressure. I don't think you 186 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: say they cannot get justice. But it's going to take 187 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 3: a lot of political courage and focus and legal expertise 188 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: to get those victims, many of whom were children when 189 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: it's occurred. I mean, we're talking about appalling crimes. And 190 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 3: the thing that really concerns me and I suspect many 191 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: people when they think about this, is that Ghislain Maxwell 192 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: and Epstein they operated what appeared to be a global 193 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: sex trafficking network which involved a lot of money. And 194 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 3: we also know that Epstein he was very conscious to 195 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: film many of these activities. It meant that he had 196 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 3: compromising information and evidence on very a number of lot 197 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: prominent people. It seemed to me very organized and quite 198 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: systematic what Epstein was engaged in, which of course raises 199 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 3: issues about whether Epstein he dismissed claims that he was 200 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:59,119 Speaker 3: linked with Mossad, one of the world's most formidable intelligence agencies, 201 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 3: but he wouldn't admit that even if he was a member. No, 202 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: people in intelligence agencies don't go around and say, oh, yeah, yeah, 203 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: I'm a member of the CIA, I remember the you know, Mossat. 204 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way. 205 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: By definition, they have to be discreet, So how convincing 206 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 3: he's But you know, I suppose given the money that 207 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: was available to Epstein, and given his network of contacts 208 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: of very prominent people, and what appears to be his 209 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: associations with countries, which, how should I put it, might 210 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: mister putin an authoritarian state. Yeah, so, I mean there's 211 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: a lot of worrying implications here. 212 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: Well for New Zealand, I suppose it does all feel 213 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: like quite distance you know, we're quite distance from it 214 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: all seems a bit tabloid from our side of the 215 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: you know, we're watching this and we're reading these things 216 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: from the other side of the world. But why should 217 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: New Zealanders care about this information and you know, really 218 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: stay on top of it. 219 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's one of those issues that transcends 220 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: borders because it shows you what can happen when power 221 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: is abused, and we are not in vulnerable to the 222 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 3: abuse of power. New Zealand is consistently rated as one 223 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: of the most honest and transparent countries in the world 224 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: as Transparency International, which our viewers and listeners can go 225 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: and have a look at online. We're often ranked in 226 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: the top four in the world. So I don't think 227 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: there's a major problem as far as I know, no 228 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 3: New Zealanders have been linked to these activities. 229 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: I think there was an Auckland professor who may have 230 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: exchanged emails. 231 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the key we professor, as I understand 232 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: it has indicated his dismay about the activities that Epstein 233 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: was involved in, which he obviously wasn't privy to or 234 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: have novelige jobs. But it does indicate I think the 235 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 3: extent to which Epstein spread his activities internationally, and while 236 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 3: he was engaged in what appears to be a global 237 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 3: sex trafficking organization, he was also someone who connected socially 238 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: with the worlds of academia. He was a prominent donor 239 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: in US academic institutions, including Harvard, but he also had 240 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: a genuine appears interest in science, which meant he connected 241 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 3: with many people around the world in various institutions. So 242 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: he didn't confine his activities to the United States and 243 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 3: was quite internationally orientated. 244 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 245 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: Why should New Zealand be concerned. I think it's important 246 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: that we remain vigilant about trying to keep money out 247 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: of politics. One of the problems with the United States 248 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: has people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandra Karzio Cortesa keep 249 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 3: pointing out is that following the Citizens Who United Move 250 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: the legislation of twenty eleven, unlimited private money is available 251 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: and it can be used in American politics. And I 252 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: think that compounds this sort of abuse, because let's be 253 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 3: quite clear about this, if you have a lot of 254 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 3: financial resources, you can get the best lawyers, and you 255 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 3: can get support that other people who don't have those resources. 256 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 3: More worryingly, billionaires now exercise disproportionate influence in American politics. 257 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: So I think New Zealand should be looking at what's 258 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 3: happened in the United States. And first of all, takes 259 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 3: some comfort in the fact that we have MMP a 260 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 3: good electoral system. Anybody who forms the government in this country, 261 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: by definition, has to have about forty eight percent of 262 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 3: the vote, which usually is derived from a coalition of parties. 263 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: But I think it's important that we make sure that 264 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 3: our institutions are responsive and also that we may maintain 265 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: the stands of transparency that. 266 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: We've come to accept or expect. 267 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: I should say, but there's no room for complacency, and 268 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 3: we shouldn't bloat over what's happening. In a sense, it's 269 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 3: a warning and it's a worry. 270 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 4: It told them that the money was coming from a 271 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 4: what are you? 272 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: Class three? 273 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 4: Sexual predator? 274 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: Tier one wasier? Tier one is the highest and worst. No, 275 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: the lowest, the lowest. 276 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 4: You're the lost a tier one, you're the lowest, but 277 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 4: a criminal. Yes, that the money came from there? What 278 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 4: what percentage of people do you estimate? I understand you 279 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 4: don't like probabils. Do you estimate would say, I don't care, 280 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 4: I want the money for my children. 281 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: I was saying. 282 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 5: Everyone said I want the money for my children. 283 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 4: Did they know where the money came from? 284 00:18:59,160 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: If? 285 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 5: I think if she told them to them the devil, 286 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 5: the devil, the devil himself said I'm going to exchange 287 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 5: some dollars to your child's life. 288 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 4: Do you think you're the devil himself? 289 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: No, but I do have a good mirror. 290 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 4: It's a serious question. 291 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: Do you think you're the devil self? And why would 292 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: you say that? 293 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: In terms of New Zealand politics and our system, do 294 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: you think that it is impenetrable? 295 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: No? 296 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 3: No, There are actors who want to influence the political 297 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 3: agenda here, and I'm sure they target particular political leaders 298 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 3: and not only political leaders, MPs and local government officials. 299 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 3: I think the old expression there's no such thing as 300 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 3: a free lunch applies here. It's it's important that I think, 301 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 3: and I know the GCSB are you know. They've alerted 302 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: this that there are foreign actors that want to influence 303 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: as New Zealand's domestic politics, and we should be we 304 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: shouldn't be naive about that. 305 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: New Zealand. 306 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 3: Although sometimes politicians state's a small state, it doesn't matter 307 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 3: to anyone. That's completely untrue. First of all, we're not 308 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 3: small as we think we are. In land spaceed terms, 309 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 3: the country is bigger than the UK. And secondly, we 310 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 3: may have a relatively small population, but it's comparable to 311 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 3: countries like Denmark and Norway, which do not consider themselves 312 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: small countries. So and we're a next door A close 313 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: neighbor is Australia a thousand kilometers away. But these countries 314 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: sometimes have more soft power rather than hard power. But 315 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 3: they are tempting targets for countries which want to extend 316 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: there their views and their influence. The other thing I 317 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 3: would add, Chelsea is that many of the assumptions under 318 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 3: which Australia and New Zealand are operated a crumbled. In 319 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: recent years, we've both Australia and New Zealand have operated 320 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 3: under what's called the international rules based order, and that's 321 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: the majority of countries one hundred and eighty countries plus 322 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: in the world depends on something called the international rules 323 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 3: based order. This is a vision of international relations based 324 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: on rules, principles and procedures, agreed procedures that has come 325 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 3: under pressure from several sources, firstly authoritarian states like China, 326 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 3: but also Russia, which in first of all, illegally annexed 327 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 3: Crimea in twenty fourteen and then launched a full scale 328 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 3: invasion of Ukraine. At the same time, the United States 329 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 3: has country Beauty to the erosion of international rules based 330 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 3: order by illegally invading Iraq. And now we have an administration, 331 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: the Trump administration, that sas territorial claims on both Canada, 332 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: a liberal democracy, and Denmark wants to own Greenland. 333 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: So I suppose you can't kidnap another country's leader under 334 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: an international rules based either. 335 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: So, without laboring the point, we've seen, unfortunately, a steady 336 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 3: erosion of the sort of world that Newsanders and Australians 337 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: would like to live in. And that's a bigger reason 338 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: for being more vigilant because countries that we formally, I mean, 339 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 3: let's be quite clear, how many of us would have 340 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: taken seriously the idea that mister Trump, a second Trump 341 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 3: administration would seriously say to Canadians, you should become the 342 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 3: fifty first state. I was in Canada and January twenty 343 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 3: twenty five on a professional visit there, and the Canadians 344 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 3: I met across the board were utterly furious and insulted 345 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: by this and took it extremely seriously. 346 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: We do have problem. 347 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: We do have politicians in this country you like to 348 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 3: downplay the assault on the international rules based order that's 349 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 3: going on that some of them say, oh, you shouldn't 350 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: take Trump seriously. Well, tell that to Denmark, and tell 351 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 3: that to the Canadians, and tell that to American citizens, 352 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 3: particularly in places like Minnesota where they're seeing the constitution flouted. 353 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 3: So I do think for all these reasons, New Zealand 354 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: has to be more vigilant than perhaps before. And to 355 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 3: take up mister Carney's point at Davos a recent Davos meeting, 356 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: he said that middle powers and small countries should look 357 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: to organize themselves and shouldn't allow themselves to be bullied 358 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 3: by caving in to great powers. And let's be quite clear, 359 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 3: at the moment, mister Trump's vision of how the world 360 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 3: should be organized is completely and radically different from previous 361 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 3: US presidents. He wants the world to be built around 362 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 3: what could be called a concert of great powers, a 363 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: sort of nineteenth century idea, sort of back to the 364 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 3: future vision of the twenty first century. 365 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: What does that mean. 366 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: It means that five countries, and I'm not you know, 367 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: let's be quite clear about it. I'm simply citing here 368 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: the National Security Strategy of the United States, a document 369 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: which was published in December twenty twenty five. 370 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: In that document, the. 371 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 3: Trump administration quite explicitly says that great power should run 372 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 3: the world, and those powers with not surprising America, as 373 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: head of the table, will be the United States, China, Russia, Japan, 374 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: and India. So how about the rest of the world, Well, 375 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 3: they will have to pick up the crumbs that's left. 376 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 3: So this is a real challenge to New Zealand, and 377 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 3: I think it's a big reason why we should follow 378 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: developments closely in the United States, particularly unfortunately, what tears 379 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 3: to be an authoritarian turn within America's system of governance. 380 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: I know it's worrying many Americans, and by the way, we, 381 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 3: like many other liberal democracies, have tended to downplay and 382 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: adopt a softly softly approach to the Trump administration. This 383 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: has been based on the assumption that New Zealand and Australia, 384 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: by being very nice to mister Trump, not reacting to 385 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: his territory ambitions against our allies, we could nudge him 386 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 3: into a more reasonable position, you know, co exim in, 387 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 3: moderate him, flatter him, and gradually maneuver him into a 388 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 3: much more moderate position. 389 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: Very she'll be right attitude day unfortunately. 390 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: Yeah so, in a sense, the the Extein files crisis 391 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 3: is yet another reminder countries like New Zealand and Australia 392 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 3: have to be vigilant not only about way things are 393 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 3: being dealt with at home, but also about the changing 394 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: international environment they find themselves in. 395 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Robert. 396 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. 397 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 398 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 399 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 400 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels, Caine, Dickie is 401 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 2: our studio operator Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 402 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the front page 403 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 404 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.