WEBVTT - Increasing budgets and changes for veterans: Inside NZ's defence shakeup

0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Jiaota.

0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:11.039
<v Speaker 2>daily podcast.

0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:12.479
<v Speaker 3>Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:20.000
<v Speaker 2>One hundred and ten years ago tomorrow, soldiers from the

0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Australian and New Zealand Army Corps landed at Gallipoli. About

0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.840
<v Speaker 2>eighty seven hundred Australians and two thousand, seven hundred Kiwis

0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.600
<v Speaker 2>would die over the eight month campaign that followed. Since then,

0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:37.280
<v Speaker 2>the term Anzac has symbolized decades of mateship, and the

0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.199
<v Speaker 2>day is observed now by a number of Pacific nations

0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.040
<v Speaker 2>as well. The date serves as a time to remember

0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.960
<v Speaker 2>those who served and died in all wars, conflict and

0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.879
<v Speaker 2>peacekeeping operations. But until very recently how we defined the

0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.360
<v Speaker 2>word veteran was quite narrow. Today on the front Page

0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.480
<v Speaker 2>ends at Herald's senior reporter, David Fisher is with us

0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.680
<v Speaker 2>todake us through the latest changes in this realm and

0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:11.759
<v Speaker 2>how our defense focus is changing. So, David, there's been

0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of discussion in recent weeks about the term veteran,

0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.120
<v Speaker 2>How is it defined until very recently and how is

0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:20.399
<v Speaker 2>it going to be defined now?

0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.679
<v Speaker 4>What are the main bones of contention among the New

0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.520
<v Speaker 4>Zealand veteran community has been that definition of veteran. The

0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.640
<v Speaker 4>difficulty in New Zealand has still has actually is that

0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.920
<v Speaker 4>we have effectively a two tier system. That two tiers system,

0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.680
<v Speaker 4>meaning that from nineteen seventy four and before, if you served,

0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.000
<v Speaker 4>no matter how, you're considered a veteran and you can

0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.960
<v Speaker 4>access support services through Veterans Affairs. After nineteen seventy four,

0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:55.560
<v Speaker 4>you need what is called qualifying operational service. This is

0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.000
<v Speaker 4>going to sound a little bizarre, a little perverse, kind

0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.280
<v Speaker 4>of hard to get ahead, and that's one of the

0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.720
<v Speaker 4>issues that the veteran community has with US. Qualified operational

0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.040
<v Speaker 4>service is service which the Minister of Defense has signed

0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.960
<v Speaker 4>a piece of paper to say, yes, this will qualify

0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:14.919
<v Speaker 4>you as a veteran, and.

0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.840
<v Speaker 1>It's riddled with inconsistencies.

0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.359
<v Speaker 4>One good example, I think is that if you were

0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.720
<v Speaker 4>in service and you were deployed to assist with the

0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.919
<v Speaker 4>tsunami that Hippapa New Guinea in nineteen ninety eight, then

0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:28.440
<v Speaker 4>you were.

0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.560
<v Speaker 1>Eligible to be called a veteran.

0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.240
<v Speaker 4>If you were in service and you were deployed to

0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.519
<v Speaker 4>help with the tsunami and Togger in twenty twenty two,

0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.639
<v Speaker 4>you're not a veteran simply because this sign wire doesn't

0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:41.440
<v Speaker 4>exist at the bottom of the right piece of paper.

0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.639
<v Speaker 4>So the change that we had recently was that Veterans

0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.480
<v Speaker 4>Minister Chris Penk himself a veteran in Australia but not

0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.519
<v Speaker 4>one in New Zealand, even though he served in both

0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.720
<v Speaker 4>defense forces. He has said that there will be a

0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:01.680
<v Speaker 4>change so that under certain conditions three years of service,

0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.680
<v Speaker 4>for example, you can then be called a veteran. The

0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.440
<v Speaker 4>issue with that for many in the veterans community is

0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.400
<v Speaker 4>that it's nice that they've had that recognition, but you

0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.760
<v Speaker 4>still need qualifying operational service to be able to access

0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.400
<v Speaker 4>any of the veterans support services that exist. So it's

0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.960
<v Speaker 4>very much a cosmetic change, a very overdue cosmetic change,

0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.680
<v Speaker 4>but it doesn't really have any practical effect.

0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, So the signature at the bottom of the right

0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.280
<v Speaker 2>piece of paper still needs to exist.

0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's right.

0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.480
<v Speaker 4>And this was the point that Willie a piata our

0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.360
<v Speaker 4>sas Victoria crossholder made when he handed his Victoria cross

0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.440
<v Speaker 4>over to Chris Pink and said, a veterans a veteran.

0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:46.240
<v Speaker 1>That's what he's pushing for.

0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.520
<v Speaker 4>That's what almost all in the veterans community are pushing

0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.440
<v Speaker 4>for the RSA for example, that considers service to be

0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.440
<v Speaker 4>the mark of a veteran that you need to have

0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.320
<v Speaker 4>done that qualifying operational service. They will refer to people

0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.800
<v Speaker 4>that have served as veterans. Veterans Affairs has not done

0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.200
<v Speaker 4>that in the past. With this law change, they will.

0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.840
<v Speaker 4>But unless you have qualifying operational service, you'll still not

0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:12.920
<v Speaker 4>be able to access Veterans Support services.

0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, So how significant is this change. It kind of

0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.239
<v Speaker 2>seems to me like it's a bit we're halfway there.

0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.080
<v Speaker 4>The change would be significant if it were to be

0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:26.479
<v Speaker 4>a halfway step towards recognizing all those who have served

0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.880
<v Speaker 4>as eligible for Veterans Affairs support. Without it's actually getting

0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.240
<v Speaker 4>some traction. I don't want to say it's meaningless, because

0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.560
<v Speaker 4>it's very meaningful to those who have served and have

0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.680
<v Speaker 4>really contributed to our nation, to its national security, to

0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.560
<v Speaker 4>disaster response within New Zealand and abroad. It's very meaningful

0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.479
<v Speaker 4>to those people that they now feel recognized by the

0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.560
<v Speaker 4>government that they had listed to serve, to protect, to

0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.080
<v Speaker 4>act on behalf of where needed. They're now seen. So

0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.520
<v Speaker 4>that's meaningful in that sense to them. In terms of

0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.520
<v Speaker 4>practical assistance is it.

0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:10.000
<v Speaker 5>We will be establishing a national day of Recognition for veterans.

0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:15.160
<v Speaker 5>Working title might be Veterans' Service Recognition Day, but we're

0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.440
<v Speaker 5>again open to the discussion publicly about what that might

0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.640
<v Speaker 5>look like. And I do want to acknowledge particularly the

0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.160
<v Speaker 5>RSA in this context was the RSA that first proposed

0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.120
<v Speaker 5>the idea of a national Day of Recognition for veterans,

0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.000
<v Speaker 5>and I do want to emphasize that NZACT Day will

0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.679
<v Speaker 5>of course remain a hugely important date in our calendar.

0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.359
<v Speaker 5>The twenty fifth of April is embedded in the New

0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.000
<v Speaker 5>Zealand psyche, and we will continue to celebrate no less

0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.560
<v Speaker 5>vigorously and in fact, perhaps even more meaningfully.

0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.760
<v Speaker 2>I understand we're also going to get a new day

0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.880
<v Speaker 2>to remember all veterans. Has that been a source of

0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.920
<v Speaker 2>tension around ANZAC Day and its focus on the World Wars.

0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.680
<v Speaker 4>I suppose there has been some frustration that, well, the

0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:01.240
<v Speaker 4>first actually comes in two parts.

0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Really.

0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.880
<v Speaker 4>The first is that Antac Day, while a very important

0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.120
<v Speaker 4>meaningful day for the veterans community and for all of

0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.440
<v Speaker 4>New Zealand, is seen somewhat as a day on which

0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.039
<v Speaker 4>recognition is given to veterans one day of the year

0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.560
<v Speaker 4>and then you can just forget about it and move

0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:23.400
<v Speaker 4>on to have an actual Veterans Day that recognizes those

0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.960
<v Speaker 4>who served and the service that they contributed to the country.

0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.599
<v Speaker 4>Is seen by some as a place that will further

0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.839
<v Speaker 4>recognition of veterans across the community. Is seen by some

0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.640
<v Speaker 4>as a day that would allow veterans to reflect on

0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.479
<v Speaker 4>their own personal service and the service of those that

0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:43.200
<v Speaker 4>they served with.

0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.520
<v Speaker 1>But given the extraordinary.

0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.240
<v Speaker 4>Range of things that need to happen in the veterans space,

0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.680
<v Speaker 4>a Veterans Day wasn't very high on the list of

0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.960
<v Speaker 4>things that need to be done for the veteran community.

0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.760
<v Speaker 2>What else do veterans want to see changed? Because I

0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.320
<v Speaker 2>saw recently you wrote about suicience and how there's no

0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.560
<v Speaker 2>database to track these deaths.

0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.760
<v Speaker 4>Data is a really important issue for the veterans community

0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.560
<v Speaker 4>in that New Zealand has extremely poor or just non

0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.880
<v Speaker 4>existent data when it comes to veterans. We don't actually

0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.800
<v Speaker 4>know how many veterans we have. And I'm not talking

0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.800
<v Speaker 4>about those that served in the Second World War or

0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.520
<v Speaker 4>Career or Vietnam or other conflicts around that period, but

0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.040
<v Speaker 4>in terms of contemporary veterans, those who have served over

0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.120
<v Speaker 4>the last say three decades or.

0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.640
<v Speaker 1>So, we don't know. And not only do we not know.

0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.480
<v Speaker 4>How big that community is, which will have needs that

0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.680
<v Speaker 4>should be served, need to be served. There's really important

0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.920
<v Speaker 4>data sets within that group that should exist that don't exist.

0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.640
<v Speaker 4>One of those is suicide data. There's no measure on

0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.160
<v Speaker 4>how many veterans or how many people who have served

0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.679
<v Speaker 4>have self harmed or in fact taken their life. Now,

0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.880
<v Speaker 4>this was a gap in Australia which was closed a

0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:05.880
<v Speaker 4>number of years back.

0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:06.680
<v Speaker 1>When it was.

0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:11.239
<v Speaker 4>Closed, the scale of suicide among that community, the scale

0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.160
<v Speaker 4>of suffering that those who had served were subjected to

0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.040
<v Speaker 4>mental health suffering was so extraordinary that it led to

0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:24.160
<v Speaker 4>a Royal commission into veteran suicide that exploded so many

0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.880
<v Speaker 4>different myths. It blew up issues that have been simmering

0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.679
<v Speaker 4>just under the surface for so so many years, and

0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.080
<v Speaker 4>it led to an inquiry that really pulled out some

0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.640
<v Speaker 4>horrendously gut wrenching stories. It's hard to think that that

0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.600
<v Speaker 4>similar situation doesn't exist in New Zealand, but we've got

0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:53.840
<v Speaker 4>no idea.

0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I know you've also covered for a while now issues

0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.600
<v Speaker 2>with the Returned Services of Association.

0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:02.120
<v Speaker 3>What's been happening there?

0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.720
<v Speaker 1>The RSA is in a bit of a state. Really.

0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:12.680
<v Speaker 4>It's been going through a restructuring process or refocusing process,

0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.000
<v Speaker 4>I guess you could call it. And some of this

0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:19.400
<v Speaker 4>has been brought on by leadership at the National Office

0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:24.920
<v Speaker 4>of the RSA wanting all the very many district RSAs

0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.480
<v Speaker 4>to think about why they exist, which is for veterans

0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.560
<v Speaker 4>or that's the way that the National Office would like

0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.120
<v Speaker 4>those different areas around the country to see it. And

0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.480
<v Speaker 4>the other thing that has happened as well is that

0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.840
<v Speaker 4>there's been changes to the Incorporated Societies Act. Mostsas are

0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.080
<v Speaker 4>incorporate societies and the National Office has been driving a

0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:51.040
<v Speaker 4>process to have clubs conform to the new law. There's

0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.960
<v Speaker 4>quite a bit of upset around this to look at

0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.199
<v Speaker 4>the drive that the National officers had around a focus

0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.600
<v Speaker 4>on veterans. That there was those quite infamous words from

0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:02.880
<v Speaker 4>Tarbuck Shelford.

0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.959
<v Speaker 1>No more booze halls or pokey halls or something like that.

0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.240
<v Speaker 4>Over the many many decades that we've had as a

0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.400
<v Speaker 4>number of those have gone in different directions and become

0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.920
<v Speaker 4>more like community associations or community clubs that operate under

0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.319
<v Speaker 4>the banner of the RSA. Some of those will have

0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.120
<v Speaker 4>extensive offerings through their clubs that bring in a huge

0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.560
<v Speaker 4>amount of revenue but actually only a very small fraction

0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.240
<v Speaker 4>of that which has put aside for veterans. And in

0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.240
<v Speaker 4>some clubs you'll get the same amount put aside for

0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.880
<v Speaker 4>veterans as we put aside for the local kids bushwalking

0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.400
<v Speaker 4>club or the local knitting circle or the local keep

0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.240
<v Speaker 4>the Town tidy crew, or whatever it might be. And

0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.280
<v Speaker 4>so there's a real tension between the different clubs that

0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.280
<v Speaker 4>we have around the country as to the purpose that

0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:53.840
<v Speaker 4>they serve. Other clubs are very much directly focused on

0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:59.240
<v Speaker 4>veterans welfare and they don't operate, say hospitality venues, which

0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.040
<v Speaker 4>were seen for a long time as an answer to

0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.920
<v Speaker 4>RSA woes. They pour their efforts, the energy they're fundraising

0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.920
<v Speaker 4>into veteran support services, a far more narrower operation than

0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:14.480
<v Speaker 4>say those that operates big community organizations or big community clubs.

0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.679
<v Speaker 4>So there's a real culture war that's going on within

0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.560
<v Speaker 4>the ARESA about why they exist, who's in charge. All

0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.240
<v Speaker 4>the local rssays have always been their own independent bodies.

0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:30.680
<v Speaker 4>The National Office of the RSA is exerting a direction

0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.960
<v Speaker 4>which has left some of those previously independent clubs feeling

0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.720
<v Speaker 4>as if they're being bossed around. That's quite an issue.

0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:42.360
<v Speaker 4>The upshot being that when the new constitution was voted

0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.760
<v Speaker 4>and for the RSA, this is the constitution that brings

0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.000
<v Speaker 4>in a lot of change in how the National Office

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.160
<v Speaker 4>is going to operate and then triggers a flow on

0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.760
<v Speaker 4>process toward the local clubs. And the recent vote just

0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.560
<v Speaker 4>last weekend or weekend before last, I believe they've got

0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.240
<v Speaker 4>about fifty three percent, just over fifty percent of clubs

0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 4>following them. There's quite concerning. It's not exactly a resounding

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.360
<v Speaker 4>law of approval for the direction that the National Office

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.640
<v Speaker 4>is taking people. And then within the wider ARISA network

0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.720
<v Speaker 4>there's talks of clubs that will break off.

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Auckland District.

0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.840
<v Speaker 4>ARESA has talked about wholesale leaving the national organization and

0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.800
<v Speaker 4>just doing it, so there's a real mess there.

0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.400
<v Speaker 6>I've been very clear that my primary focus is the

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.080
<v Speaker 6>economic performance of this country.

0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:29.720
<v Speaker 1>However, there can be no.

0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.160
<v Speaker 6>Prosperity without security and defense is one vital component of

0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.680
<v Speaker 6>that picture. This government has set a high ambition for

0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.880
<v Speaker 6>New Zealand's external engagement agendas. We are delivering a more

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.440
<v Speaker 6>energetic approach to international engagement and increase contributions to collective

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.200
<v Speaker 6>security efforts globally. We also have responsibility to resource and

0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.720
<v Speaker 6>equip our defense force to ensure that we can continue

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.320
<v Speaker 6>to defend our national interests. This plan seeks to strengthen

0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.880
<v Speaker 6>into operability with Australia and both our people and our assets,

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 6>and that's why we're releasing a multi billion dollar plan

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.600
<v Speaker 6>for a modern, combat capable New Zealand Defense Force.

0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.679
<v Speaker 2>We've also seen huge announcements around defense in recent weeks,

0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.280
<v Speaker 2>twelve billion dollars over the next four years, which includes

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.720
<v Speaker 2>nine billion of new spending that'll take defense spending from

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 2>one percent of GDP to about two You've spoken to

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:27.199
<v Speaker 2>the Front Page before about the underinvestment in our defense force,

0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.320
<v Speaker 2>particularly when it comes to equipment and facilities.

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.520
<v Speaker 3>So is this investment good news? Overall?

0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.520
<v Speaker 4>The twelve billion dollars that's been put forward to defense

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 4>has been a long time coming, and our defense force

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 4>seriously needed surge funding some time ago.

0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:44.520
<v Speaker 3>Is it enough?

0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.360
<v Speaker 4>Though it's a huge amount of money for a New

0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 4>Zealand budget, I'm astonished that it's at the scale that

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 4>it's at. Whether it's enough in terms of New Zealand

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 4>pulling its weight it gets there. The difficulty that I

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.560
<v Speaker 4>would think Defense will have is that much money over

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.840
<v Speaker 4>such a short period is kind of like heavy rain

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.840
<v Speaker 4>hitting droughtstruck land. All that water doesn't soak in, there's

0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 4>a risk of it running off the top. It's a

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 4>huge amount of money that is being poured into an

0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 4>organization that has struggled with spending much smaller pools of

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 4>money and getting real bang for buck out of that.

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 4>There's also an awful lot of legacy issues that need

0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.680
<v Speaker 4>to be dealt with the Defense Estate, for example, which

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 4>I believe Minister Collins when she announced the money, had

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 4>talked about a chunk of cash being set aside for

0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 4>that absolutely essential. We've got service people who and their

0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 4>families who are living in cold, drafty, mold ridden homes,

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 4>Defense homes, and it's not good enough.

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.920
<v Speaker 1>It's not been good enough for a very very long time.

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Do we know yet if it'll lead to any

0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:52.760
<v Speaker 2>improvements in pay.

0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 4>We don't know that for certain, but it would have

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 4>to lead to improvements and pay. One of the struggles

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.520
<v Speaker 4>that Defense has had is that for people who have

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.000
<v Speaker 4>the particular skills that Defense requires, they can go and

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.720
<v Speaker 4>earn a lot more money in the private sector and

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 4>have the sort of opportunity that they would sign up

0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.400
<v Speaker 4>to the military for to see the world, to go

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 4>to have adventures and excitement and those sorts of things.

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:22.120
<v Speaker 4>I mean, for many people that serve the concept of

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 4>services the thing that comes first, and there is a

0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 4>genuine and ongoing drive to pour their energies into serving

0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.600
<v Speaker 4>New Zealand. But really hard to keep that motivation alive

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.440
<v Speaker 4>when people feel like they're being taken for granted. When

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.160
<v Speaker 4>you can jump from say, working the engine room of

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.400
<v Speaker 4>a Navy ship across to the private sector and earn

0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 4>considerably more money for doing so and actually spend your

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:57.359
<v Speaker 4>time at sea, it's hard to feel that service balances

0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:02.840
<v Speaker 4>out those opportunities that you Your ambitions, your career dreams

0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 4>are being held hostage too.

0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.080
<v Speaker 2>With all these changes coming David and more of a

0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 2>focus on defense, do you think that'll give more meaning

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.120
<v Speaker 2>to Anzac Day going forward. I know when Ossie growing up,

0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.880
<v Speaker 2>there was a real discussion around Anzac Day being a

0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 2>public holiday. You've got work off, let's get on the

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 2>booze from twelve pm. I think it was back home

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.600
<v Speaker 2>and that meaning of Anzac Day. How it's really lost

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>on the younger generations.

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.000
<v Speaker 3>Do you reckon we'll ever get back.

0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 2>To a place where it is a day to commemorate

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:33.800
<v Speaker 2>those who've served.

0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I believe it still is a day of commemoration.

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.720
<v Speaker 4>It has been a feature over the last decade or so,

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 4>or a couple of decades to see younger crowds turning

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.440
<v Speaker 4>up at ANTIQ Day commemorations, which is a really heartening thing.

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.640
<v Speaker 4>It's not just antich Day though, those who serve do

0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 4>so three hundred.

0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 1>And sixty five days a year.

0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.200
<v Speaker 4>That recognition of our military, I think will grow with

0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.640
<v Speaker 4>the New Zealand society with the enormous amount of money

0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:04.720
<v Speaker 4>that's been poured into it.

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 1>But it will also it.

0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 4>Will need some effort to rebuild bonds that have been

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.440
<v Speaker 4>broken or become stretched or strained. Over the decades previous.

0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.399
<v Speaker 4>We went through an odd separation I suppose, from civil

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:24.399
<v Speaker 4>society and military society over quite an extended period of time.

0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 4>Even things like referring to those that were deployed abroad

0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.800
<v Speaker 4>as peacekeepers. For a very long time, it said that

0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 4>all New Zealand had for decades and decades was peacekeepers.

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 4>Those people are war fighters. They train to go off

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.440
<v Speaker 4>and fight wars. That's part of the barrier I think

0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:47.400
<v Speaker 4>that sits between general New Zealand society and our military component.

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.480
<v Speaker 4>We don't have the connections that we would have had

0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.679
<v Speaker 4>in generations that have been closer at wartime around say Korea,

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 4>World War two, even Vietnam to a degree, although civil

0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 4>society's engagement, it's, while very interested, somewhat different at the time.

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for joining us, David.

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.760
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.600
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.679
<v Speaker 2>at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.440
<v Speaker 2>produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:23.680
<v Speaker 2>our sound engineer.

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:25.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm Chelsea Daniels.

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 2>Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.320
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another

0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 2>look behind the headlines.