1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Jiaota. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 3: Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: One hundred and ten years ago tomorrow, soldiers from the 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: Australian and New Zealand Army Corps landed at Gallipoli. About 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: eighty seven hundred Australians and two thousand, seven hundred Kiwis 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: would die over the eight month campaign that followed. Since then, 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: the term Anzac has symbolized decades of mateship, and the 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: day is observed now by a number of Pacific nations 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: as well. The date serves as a time to remember 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: those who served and died in all wars, conflict and 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: peacekeeping operations. But until very recently how we defined the 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: word veteran was quite narrow. Today on the front Page 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: ends at Herald's senior reporter, David Fisher is with us 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: todake us through the latest changes in this realm and 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: how our defense focus is changing. So, David, there's been 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: a lot of discussion in recent weeks about the term veteran, 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: How is it defined until very recently and how is 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: it going to be defined now? 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 4: What are the main bones of contention among the New 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 4: Zealand veteran community has been that definition of veteran. The 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 4: difficulty in New Zealand has still has actually is that 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 4: we have effectively a two tier system. That two tiers system, 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 4: meaning that from nineteen seventy four and before, if you served, 26 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 4: no matter how, you're considered a veteran and you can 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 4: access support services through Veterans Affairs. After nineteen seventy four, 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 4: you need what is called qualifying operational service. This is 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 4: going to sound a little bizarre, a little perverse, kind 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 4: of hard to get ahead, and that's one of the 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 4: issues that the veteran community has with US. Qualified operational 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 4: service is service which the Minister of Defense has signed 33 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 4: a piece of paper to say, yes, this will qualify 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 4: you as a veteran, and. 35 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: It's riddled with inconsistencies. 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 4: One good example, I think is that if you were 37 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 4: in service and you were deployed to assist with the 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 4: tsunami that Hippapa New Guinea in nineteen ninety eight, then 39 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 4: you were. 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: Eligible to be called a veteran. 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 4: If you were in service and you were deployed to 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 4: help with the tsunami and Togger in twenty twenty two, 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 4: you're not a veteran simply because this sign wire doesn't 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 4: exist at the bottom of the right piece of paper. 45 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 4: So the change that we had recently was that Veterans 46 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 4: Minister Chris Penk himself a veteran in Australia but not 47 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 4: one in New Zealand, even though he served in both 48 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 4: defense forces. He has said that there will be a 49 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 4: change so that under certain conditions three years of service, 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: for example, you can then be called a veteran. The 51 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 4: issue with that for many in the veterans community is 52 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 4: that it's nice that they've had that recognition, but you 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 4: still need qualifying operational service to be able to access 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 4: any of the veterans support services that exist. So it's 55 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 4: very much a cosmetic change, a very overdue cosmetic change, 56 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 4: but it doesn't really have any practical effect. 57 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: Right, So the signature at the bottom of the right 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: piece of paper still needs to exist. 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. 60 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 4: And this was the point that Willie a piata our 61 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 4: sas Victoria crossholder made when he handed his Victoria cross 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 4: over to Chris Pink and said, a veterans a veteran. 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: That's what he's pushing for. 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: That's what almost all in the veterans community are pushing 65 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 4: for the RSA for example, that considers service to be 66 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 4: the mark of a veteran that you need to have 67 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 4: done that qualifying operational service. They will refer to people 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 4: that have served as veterans. Veterans Affairs has not done 69 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 4: that in the past. With this law change, they will. 70 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 4: But unless you have qualifying operational service, you'll still not 71 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 4: be able to access Veterans Support services. 72 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: Right, So how significant is this change. It kind of 73 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 2: seems to me like it's a bit we're halfway there. 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 4: The change would be significant if it were to be 75 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 4: a halfway step towards recognizing all those who have served 76 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 4: as eligible for Veterans Affairs support. Without it's actually getting 77 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: some traction. I don't want to say it's meaningless, because 78 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 4: it's very meaningful to those who have served and have 79 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 4: really contributed to our nation, to its national security, to 80 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 4: disaster response within New Zealand and abroad. It's very meaningful 81 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 4: to those people that they now feel recognized by the 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 4: government that they had listed to serve, to protect, to 83 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: act on behalf of where needed. They're now seen. So 84 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 4: that's meaningful in that sense to them. In terms of 85 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 4: practical assistance is it. 86 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 5: We will be establishing a national day of Recognition for veterans. 87 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 5: Working title might be Veterans' Service Recognition Day, but we're 88 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 5: again open to the discussion publicly about what that might 89 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 5: look like. And I do want to acknowledge particularly the 90 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 5: RSA in this context was the RSA that first proposed 91 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 5: the idea of a national Day of Recognition for veterans, 92 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 5: and I do want to emphasize that NZACT Day will 93 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 5: of course remain a hugely important date in our calendar. 94 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 5: The twenty fifth of April is embedded in the New 95 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 5: Zealand psyche, and we will continue to celebrate no less 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 5: vigorously and in fact, perhaps even more meaningfully. 97 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: I understand we're also going to get a new day 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: to remember all veterans. Has that been a source of 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: tension around ANZAC Day and its focus on the World Wars. 100 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 4: I suppose there has been some frustration that, well, the 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 4: first actually comes in two parts. 102 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: Really. 103 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 4: The first is that Antac Day, while a very important 104 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 4: meaningful day for the veterans community and for all of 105 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 4: New Zealand, is seen somewhat as a day on which 106 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 4: recognition is given to veterans one day of the year 107 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: and then you can just forget about it and move 108 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 4: on to have an actual Veterans Day that recognizes those 109 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: who served and the service that they contributed to the country. 110 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 4: Is seen by some as a place that will further 111 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 4: recognition of veterans across the community. Is seen by some 112 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 4: as a day that would allow veterans to reflect on 113 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 4: their own personal service and the service of those that 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 4: they served with. 115 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: But given the extraordinary. 116 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 4: Range of things that need to happen in the veterans space, 117 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 4: a Veterans Day wasn't very high on the list of 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 4: things that need to be done for the veteran community. 119 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: What else do veterans want to see changed? Because I 120 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: saw recently you wrote about suicience and how there's no 121 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: database to track these deaths. 122 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 4: Data is a really important issue for the veterans community 123 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 4: in that New Zealand has extremely poor or just non 124 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 4: existent data when it comes to veterans. We don't actually 125 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 4: know how many veterans we have. And I'm not talking 126 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 4: about those that served in the Second World War or 127 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 4: Career or Vietnam or other conflicts around that period, but 128 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: in terms of contemporary veterans, those who have served over 129 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 4: the last say three decades or. 130 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: So, we don't know. And not only do we not know. 131 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 4: How big that community is, which will have needs that 132 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 4: should be served, need to be served. There's really important 133 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 4: data sets within that group that should exist that don't exist. 134 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: One of those is suicide data. There's no measure on 135 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 4: how many veterans or how many people who have served 136 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,679 Speaker 4: have self harmed or in fact taken their life. Now, 137 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 4: this was a gap in Australia which was closed a 138 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 4: number of years back. 139 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: When it was. 140 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 4: Closed, the scale of suicide among that community, the scale 141 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 4: of suffering that those who had served were subjected to 142 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: mental health suffering was so extraordinary that it led to 143 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: a Royal commission into veteran suicide that exploded so many 144 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: different myths. It blew up issues that have been simmering 145 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 4: just under the surface for so so many years, and 146 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 4: it led to an inquiry that really pulled out some 147 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 4: horrendously gut wrenching stories. It's hard to think that that 148 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 4: similar situation doesn't exist in New Zealand, but we've got 149 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 4: no idea. 150 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: I know you've also covered for a while now issues 151 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: with the Returned Services of Association. 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 3: What's been happening there? 153 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: The RSA is in a bit of a state. Really. 154 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 4: It's been going through a restructuring process or refocusing process, 155 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 4: I guess you could call it. And some of this 156 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 4: has been brought on by leadership at the National Office 157 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: of the RSA wanting all the very many district RSAs 158 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 4: to think about why they exist, which is for veterans 159 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 4: or that's the way that the National Office would like 160 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: those different areas around the country to see it. And 161 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 4: the other thing that has happened as well is that 162 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: there's been changes to the Incorporated Societies Act. Mostsas are 163 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 4: incorporate societies and the National Office has been driving a 164 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 4: process to have clubs conform to the new law. There's 165 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 4: quite a bit of upset around this to look at 166 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 4: the drive that the National officers had around a focus 167 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 4: on veterans. That there was those quite infamous words from 168 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 4: Tarbuck Shelford. 169 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: No more booze halls or pokey halls or something like that. 170 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 4: Over the many many decades that we've had as a 171 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 4: number of those have gone in different directions and become 172 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 4: more like community associations or community clubs that operate under 173 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 4: the banner of the RSA. Some of those will have 174 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 4: extensive offerings through their clubs that bring in a huge 175 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 4: amount of revenue but actually only a very small fraction 176 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 4: of that which has put aside for veterans. And in 177 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: some clubs you'll get the same amount put aside for 178 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 4: veterans as we put aside for the local kids bushwalking 179 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 4: club or the local knitting circle or the local keep 180 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 4: the Town tidy crew, or whatever it might be. And 181 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 4: so there's a real tension between the different clubs that 182 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 4: we have around the country as to the purpose that 183 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 4: they serve. Other clubs are very much directly focused on 184 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 4: veterans welfare and they don't operate, say hospitality venues, which 185 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 4: were seen for a long time as an answer to 186 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 4: RSA woes. They pour their efforts, the energy they're fundraising 187 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 4: into veteran support services, a far more narrower operation than 188 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 4: say those that operates big community organizations or big community clubs. 189 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 4: So there's a real culture war that's going on within 190 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 4: the ARESA about why they exist, who's in charge. All 191 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: the local rssays have always been their own independent bodies. 192 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 4: The National Office of the RSA is exerting a direction 193 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 4: which has left some of those previously independent clubs feeling 194 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 4: as if they're being bossed around. That's quite an issue. 195 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 4: The upshot being that when the new constitution was voted 196 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 4: and for the RSA, this is the constitution that brings 197 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: in a lot of change in how the National Office 198 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: is going to operate and then triggers a flow on 199 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 4: process toward the local clubs. And the recent vote just 200 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 4: last weekend or weekend before last, I believe they've got 201 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 4: about fifty three percent, just over fifty percent of clubs 202 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 4: following them. There's quite concerning. It's not exactly a resounding 203 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: law of approval for the direction that the National Office 204 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 4: is taking people. And then within the wider ARISA network 205 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 4: there's talks of clubs that will break off. 206 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Auckland District. 207 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 4: ARESA has talked about wholesale leaving the national organization and 208 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 4: just doing it, so there's a real mess there. 209 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 6: I've been very clear that my primary focus is the 210 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 6: economic performance of this country. 211 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: However, there can be no. 212 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 6: Prosperity without security and defense is one vital component of 213 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 6: that picture. This government has set a high ambition for 214 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 6: New Zealand's external engagement agendas. We are delivering a more 215 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 6: energetic approach to international engagement and increase contributions to collective 216 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 6: security efforts globally. We also have responsibility to resource and 217 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 6: equip our defense force to ensure that we can continue 218 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 6: to defend our national interests. This plan seeks to strengthen 219 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 6: into operability with Australia and both our people and our assets, 220 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 6: and that's why we're releasing a multi billion dollar plan 221 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 6: for a modern, combat capable New Zealand Defense Force. 222 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: We've also seen huge announcements around defense in recent weeks, 223 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: twelve billion dollars over the next four years, which includes 224 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: nine billion of new spending that'll take defense spending from 225 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 2: one percent of GDP to about two You've spoken to 226 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 2: the Front Page before about the underinvestment in our defense force, 227 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: particularly when it comes to equipment and facilities. 228 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: So is this investment good news? Overall? 229 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: The twelve billion dollars that's been put forward to defense 230 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: has been a long time coming, and our defense force 231 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 4: seriously needed surge funding some time ago. 232 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: Is it enough? 233 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 4: Though it's a huge amount of money for a New 234 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 4: Zealand budget, I'm astonished that it's at the scale that 235 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 4: it's at. Whether it's enough in terms of New Zealand 236 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 4: pulling its weight it gets there. The difficulty that I 237 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 4: would think Defense will have is that much money over 238 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 4: such a short period is kind of like heavy rain 239 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: hitting droughtstruck land. All that water doesn't soak in, there's 240 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 4: a risk of it running off the top. It's a 241 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 4: huge amount of money that is being poured into an 242 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 4: organization that has struggled with spending much smaller pools of 243 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 4: money and getting real bang for buck out of that. 244 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 4: There's also an awful lot of legacy issues that need 245 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 4: to be dealt with the Defense Estate, for example, which 246 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 4: I believe Minister Collins when she announced the money, had 247 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 4: talked about a chunk of cash being set aside for 248 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 4: that absolutely essential. We've got service people who and their 249 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 4: families who are living in cold, drafty, mold ridden homes, 250 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 4: Defense homes, and it's not good enough. 251 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: It's not been good enough for a very very long time. 252 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do we know yet if it'll lead to any 253 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: improvements in pay. 254 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 4: We don't know that for certain, but it would have 255 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: to lead to improvements and pay. One of the struggles 256 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 4: that Defense has had is that for people who have 257 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 4: the particular skills that Defense requires, they can go and 258 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 4: earn a lot more money in the private sector and 259 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 4: have the sort of opportunity that they would sign up 260 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 4: to the military for to see the world, to go 261 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 4: to have adventures and excitement and those sorts of things. 262 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 4: I mean, for many people that serve the concept of 263 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 4: services the thing that comes first, and there is a 264 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 4: genuine and ongoing drive to pour their energies into serving 265 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 4: New Zealand. But really hard to keep that motivation alive 266 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: when people feel like they're being taken for granted. When 267 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 4: you can jump from say, working the engine room of 268 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 4: a Navy ship across to the private sector and earn 269 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: considerably more money for doing so and actually spend your 270 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:57,359 Speaker 4: time at sea, it's hard to feel that service balances 271 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 4: out those opportunities that you Your ambitions, your career dreams 272 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 4: are being held hostage too. 273 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: With all these changes coming David and more of a 274 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: focus on defense, do you think that'll give more meaning 275 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: to Anzac Day going forward. I know when Ossie growing up, 276 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: there was a real discussion around Anzac Day being a 277 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: public holiday. You've got work off, let's get on the 278 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: booze from twelve pm. I think it was back home 279 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: and that meaning of Anzac Day. How it's really lost 280 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: on the younger generations. 281 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: Do you reckon we'll ever get back. 282 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: To a place where it is a day to commemorate 283 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: those who've served. 284 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: I believe it still is a day of commemoration. 285 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: It has been a feature over the last decade or so, 286 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 4: or a couple of decades to see younger crowds turning 287 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 4: up at ANTIQ Day commemorations, which is a really heartening thing. 288 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 4: It's not just antich Day though, those who serve do 289 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 4: so three hundred. 290 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: And sixty five days a year. 291 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 4: That recognition of our military, I think will grow with 292 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 4: the New Zealand society with the enormous amount of money 293 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: that's been poured into it. 294 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: But it will also it. 295 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 4: Will need some effort to rebuild bonds that have been 296 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 4: broken or become stretched or strained. Over the decades previous. 297 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 4: We went through an odd separation I suppose, from civil 298 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 4: society and military society over quite an extended period of time. 299 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 4: Even things like referring to those that were deployed abroad 300 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 4: as peacekeepers. For a very long time, it said that 301 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 4: all New Zealand had for decades and decades was peacekeepers. 302 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 4: Those people are war fighters. They train to go off 303 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 4: and fight wars. That's part of the barrier I think 304 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 4: that sits between general New Zealand society and our military component. 305 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 4: We don't have the connections that we would have had 306 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 4: in generations that have been closer at wartime around say Korea, 307 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 4: World War two, even Vietnam to a degree, although civil 308 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 4: society's engagement, it's, while very interested, somewhat different at the time. 309 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, David. 310 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: Thank you. 311 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 312 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 313 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 314 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 315 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. 316 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 317 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 318 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 319 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.