Speaker 1: Chioda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Pope
Speaker 1: Francis has died at the age of eighty eight. The
Speaker 1: Vatican announced he died of a stroke at his Santa
Speaker 1: Maria residence, almost a month after his five weeks stay
Speaker 1: in hospital battling pneumonia. Elected on March thirteen, twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: for twelve years, he served as the leader of the
Speaker 1: world's one point four billion Catholics and was notable for
Speaker 1: his more liberal and open minded views on Christianity. Today,
Speaker 1: on the Front Page, Bishop Michael Dooley, the Bishop of Dunedin,
Speaker 1: joins us to talk about Pope Francis's legacy and where
Speaker 1: the Hollywood's depiction of how to choose the next pontiff
Speaker 1: is correct. Francis was the first Latin American leader of
Speaker 1: the Roman Catholic Church. How significant was that, Well.
Speaker 2: It was a very significant appointment after I think about
Speaker 2: a thousand years of popes coming from Europe, and it
Speaker 2: signified that here was someone who was coming from the
Speaker 2: Southern hemisphere and also from the South American continent. So
Speaker 2: it was quite a significant move. And I think good
Speaker 2: because it gave a voice to that part of the
Speaker 2: world which makes up a big part of the church,
Speaker 2: but hasn't certainly been involved in the leadership in that way,
Speaker 2: So a very significant move.
Speaker 1: The Can you tell me a little bit about his
Speaker 1: beginnings and how he came to get the top job.
Speaker 2: Well, he's from Argentina. He was a member of the
Speaker 2: Jesuit order. He was made bishop and then archbishop of
Speaker 2: Buenos Aires in Argentina by Pope John Paul the Second
Speaker 2: was made a cardinal, so he really functioned as a
Speaker 2: bishop and a diocese, looking after the parishes and normal
Speaker 2: activities of a bishop, and then until he was made pope,
Speaker 2: which surprised a lot of people, but looking at him,
Speaker 2: he would have had a good preparation.
Speaker 1: So in twenty thirteen he was asked whether a gay
Speaker 1: person could become a priest, and he famously replied, who
Speaker 1: am I to judge. In twenty twenty three, he formally
Speaker 1: signed off on allowing Catholic priests to bless same sex couples,
Speaker 1: and earlier this year, in an interview with the Associated Press,
Speaker 1: he said being homosexual isn't a crime. Now, how did
Speaker 1: the rest of the church reacted this progressiveness when it
Speaker 1: came to LGBTQ plus rights.
Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't going against any teaching of the church.
Speaker 2: But what he was doing was saying to the church
Speaker 2: and to all of us, we need to respect and
Speaker 2: acknowledge each other as human beings. So he was I suppose,
Speaker 2: speaking to those responses to people, especially from the it's
Speaker 2: the LBGDD community that have been discriminated against and abused
Speaker 2: in different ways, that this must not happen. So he
Speaker 2: was very much a pope who expressed and got for
Speaker 2: the importance of each of us being made in the
Speaker 2: image of God. So it was a strong message, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't something that was against church teaching. He was
Speaker 2: just sort of reiterating the importance of respect for each other.
Speaker 1: And I know Pope France has never shied away from
Speaker 1: commenting on world politics either. In February, he criticized US
Speaker 1: President Donald Trump's administration for its deportation policies and urged
Speaker 1: Catholics to reject anti immigrant narratives. Is this unusual for
Speaker 1: the head of the Catholic Church to voice such views.
Speaker 2: I think, to be honest, it probably is unusual because
Speaker 2: Pope Francis didn't have any hesitation in saying what he thought,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that probably some of his media advisors
Speaker 2: would caution against it, but he was very much someone
Speaker 2: who who said what he thought and went out yes
Speaker 2: and publicly put forward what his fees were. So in
Speaker 2: that regard, I think he did change the paper see
Speaker 2: and by bringing his own particular style, which was a
Speaker 2: very open and transparent style.
Speaker 3: This morning, messages coming in from rule leaders around the globe,
Speaker 3: all of them commenting on the Pontiff's impact, not just
Speaker 3: on the Church and Catholics, but everyone around the world.
Speaker 3: Mebe from top to bottom, everyone praising his humbleness as
Speaker 3: the first Latin pope we've seen.
Speaker 4: I just signed an executive order putting the flags of
Speaker 4: our country, all of them, all federal flags and state flags,
Speaker 4: at half mass in honor of Pope Francis. So he
Speaker 4: was a good man, worked hard, he loved the world,
Speaker 4: and it's an honor to do that.
Speaker 1: And I've seen some commentary online about how Pope Francis
Speaker 1: seemed to be living by true Christian values, supporting all
Speaker 1: people regardless of race or sexuality, putting his beliefs above
Speaker 1: politics in a way he made religion more palatable for
Speaker 1: the more agnostic society. Do you think that's fair? And
Speaker 1: is that something that the church will need to consider
Speaker 1: when looking at a new candidate.
Speaker 2: I think you're right. There is definitely that element that
Speaker 2: and I think what it was was he it's a
Speaker 2: preached the Gospel and the values, but he also did
Speaker 2: live them out in his everyday life, and so he
Speaker 2: did many things that were quite symbolic of simplicity and
Speaker 2: humility and respect for others. So I think it was
Speaker 2: a very important one he did, and I'm sure that
Speaker 2: it will influence the next successor.
Speaker 1: And he also lived quite modestly as well. I read
Speaker 1: somewhere that before becoming a pope he would take public transport.
Speaker 1: I mean there was a reason why he chose the
Speaker 1: name Francis, right, oh, very much.
Speaker 2: So like when he was Archbishop of Born a series.
Speaker 2: I don't think he hit a car. So he used
Speaker 2: to take public transport and lived in a little flat
Speaker 2: and cooked his own meal. So he was quite simple
Speaker 2: in his living style.
Speaker 1: And Pope Francis he chose the name France because correct
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but the popes choose a name
Speaker 1: when they get the paper c and he chose Francis
Speaker 1: because of Francis of a CC.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, Francis of a CCI, who was a
Speaker 2: saint in the church in the Middle Ages and very
Speaker 2: much had a care for the poor, also a care
Speaker 2: for the environment, and so Francis deliberately chose that name
Speaker 2: to indicate what sort of leadership he wanted to have.
Speaker 1: There have been a few movies about the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: in recent times. I'm thinking first the two popes that
Speaker 1: explored Pope Francis's friendship with Pope Benedict around the time
Speaker 1: the papacy was transferred, but also most recently Conclave. Well
Speaker 1: Dotan or Lawrence.
Speaker 2: It seems the responsibility for the conclave and falls upon you.
Speaker 5: The supervision of the selection duty.
Speaker 1: I never thought I'd have to perform.
Speaker 2: No scene.
Speaker 3: Man would want the.
Speaker 2: Man weren't dangerous?
Speaker 1: Are the ones who do want to? How accurate are
Speaker 1: these Hollywood interpretations of what happens behind the scenes?
Speaker 2: Do you think there isn't a certain accuracy because they've
Speaker 2: researched the process, So the process of the cardinals gathering
Speaker 2: together and being secluded and voting, that will be correct.
Speaker 2: Perhaps some of the movies take dramatic license with some
Speaker 2: of the things that happened, but in general, I think
Speaker 2: the reasonably accurate about the process that takes place to
Speaker 2: elect a new pope.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the movie Conclave?
Speaker 2: Look, I haven't. I've been meaning to see it and
Speaker 2: now I'm sorry. I haven't seen it before this happened,
Speaker 2: but I've certainly heard about it, and a number of
Speaker 2: people have recommended it to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm wondering, because of that movie and being
Speaker 1: nominated for the Academy Awards, whether this the real life
Speaker 1: Conclave might be the most watched in the history of
Speaker 1: the Conclaves, perhaps because so many people have seen the
Speaker 1: movie and now kind of know the process.
Speaker 2: Look, I think you're right. I think it will. We
Speaker 2: mate quite a bit of interest, because there's a number
Speaker 2: of people that have spoken to me who ugnhun't Catholics,
Speaker 2: but have been quite fascinated by the process.
Speaker 1: So can you tell me what is conclave? What's the
Speaker 1: process from here in choosing a new pope?
Speaker 2: Well, just from my understanding, so after Pope francis funeral,
Speaker 2: the cardinals of the church will be summoned to Rome
Speaker 2: and those who are under eighty years old, so they're
Speaker 2: a bible to vote, so there's about one hundred and twenty.
Speaker 2: So they will gather in Rome together and then meet
Speaker 2: in the conclave and vote on a new pope. And
Speaker 2: it often takes a few days to sort out who
Speaker 2: their candidates are, because there needs to be a sort
Speaker 2: of a reasonable majority for someone to be elected pope.
Speaker 2: But they will go into the conclave and work on
Speaker 2: that until it's until they come with the name a successor.
Speaker 2: And then of course the fame quite smoke will rise
Speaker 2: from the chimney when to indicate that they've appointed a successor.
Speaker 1: And in terms of the pope's funeral, am I right
Speaker 1: in saying that there is an opportunity for people to
Speaker 1: go and pay their respects in the coming days, Well.
Speaker 2: They will be in Rome, yes, I'd say there'll be
Speaker 2: quite a few people descending upon Rome Saint Peter Square
Speaker 2: to show their respects. So there will be like days
Speaker 2: of morning before or the funeral.
Speaker 5: His approach to people duties was markedly less formal, choosing
Speaker 5: to reside in a guest house rather than the customary
Speaker 5: Apostolic palace, and while Benedict sought to cultivate a core
Speaker 5: of ardent believers to re energize Catholicism, especially among its
Speaker 5: dwindling flock in Europe. Well Francis sought to broaden the
Speaker 5: church's appeal by de emphasizing doctrinal differences signature to his
Speaker 5: Jesuit training, The pope pushed for openness, most notably to
Speaker 5: expanding the role of women and LGBTQ Catholics.
Speaker 1: Do you think the church would benefit from another progressive
Speaker 1: pope like Pope Francis or will it change course and
Speaker 1: move back to more conservative views? Do you think?
Speaker 2: I think with Pope Francis, he wasn't really a liberal.
Speaker 2: His sort of religious views were quite conservative in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. But he was radical in the sense
Speaker 2: that in living the Gospel. So really that's what we're
Speaker 2: called to do in the church. So the next pope,
Speaker 2: I'm sure will be aware of that and will realize
Speaker 2: that if you sort of go back from that sort
Speaker 2: of radical living of the Gospel, it's not a good yes,
Speaker 2: not a good sort of sign to do that. So
Speaker 2: I think I'd have confidence that the next pope will
Speaker 2: take what Pope Francis has done and try to build
Speaker 2: on that.
Speaker 1: Are there any front runners.
Speaker 2: To be honest, I would have no idea at all
Speaker 2: who who the next Pope will be, because sometimes the
Speaker 2: ones who get pot forward as candidates never never make it.
Speaker 2: So there will be there'll be like probably a dozen
Speaker 2: cardinals that will be put forward as front runners, but
Speaker 2: often what happens is that someone comes from out of nowhere,
Speaker 2: which really was what Pope Francis did.
Speaker 6: So there are five high ranking cardinals that are the
Speaker 6: top contenders right now. The front runner appears to be
Speaker 6: Cardinal Luis Antonio Tugle from the Philippines. The sixty seven
Speaker 6: year olds is considered a strong contender to continue Pope
Speaker 6: Francis's progressive agenda. His Asian heritage may also be key,
Speaker 6: as Catholicism is growing rapidly on the continent, especially in
Speaker 6: his home country. Now behind him is Italian Cardinal Pietro Perolin.
Speaker 6: At seventy years old, he's one of the most experienced
Speaker 6: Vatican officials. And then we then have Cardinal Peter Turkson
Speaker 6: of Ghana. The seventy six year old is a well
Speaker 6: known figure in the church's social justice circles. Turkson has
Speaker 6: been vocal on issues such as climate change, poverty, and
Speaker 6: economic Justice. His election would be historic as the first
Speaker 6: African pope in centuries. And next is Cardinal Peter Erdo
Speaker 6: of Hungary, a respected canon law scholar and a strong
Speaker 6: advocate for traditional Catholic teachings and doctrin. Finally, there is
Speaker 6: Cardinal Adelo's Scola of Italy. At eighty two years old,
Speaker 6: he's the oldest of all the front runners. He was
Speaker 6: also among the favorites during the twenty thirteen conclave that
Speaker 6: elected Pope Francis.
Speaker 1: I've read a couple of lists, and You're right, they're
Speaker 1: all over the place, but I've noticed that they're all
Speaker 1: above the age of their late sixties on woods, is
Speaker 1: there a reason why I guess anyone younger can't be pope?
Speaker 2: Well, one of the reasons is that the cardinals were
Speaker 2: elected to elick someone that's too young, because then usually
Speaker 2: you know you're stuck with that pope until they die,
Speaker 2: so it can be a long time. So the advantage
Speaker 2: of having an older pope is that you know there'll
Speaker 2: be another pope that'll come, not in a reasonable length
Speaker 2: of time. So apparently there is, yeah, there is that
Speaker 2: sense that if you elected someone too young, then you
Speaker 2: could be stuck with them for a long time.
Speaker 1: And in terms of so you said there's about one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty cardinals, they will all go off to
Speaker 1: Vatican City and become part of the conclave. Have there
Speaker 1: ever been any cardinals from say Australia or New Zealand.
Speaker 2: Yes, So we have one cardinal who will go over there,
Speaker 2: Cardinal John ju who he's retired as bishop, but because
Speaker 2: he's under the age of eighty, he is eligible to
Speaker 2: be a voter, so he will go over and he
Speaker 2: will be part of the conclave. And in Australia, we
Speaker 2: actually have the youngest cardinal in the world in Australia,
Speaker 2: Cardinal mccola, who's the cardinal of the Ukrainian Catholic Church,
Speaker 2: but part of his area is New Zealand, so he
Speaker 2: will be going over too, so and he's just in
Speaker 2: his forties. So we'll have two cardinals from certainly from
Speaker 2: Australia New Zealand going over.
Speaker 1: And what does it take to become a cardinal, Well.
Speaker 2: To become it's the Pope that appoints cardinals, so and
Speaker 2: it's an honorary position, so it's usually an existing bishop
Speaker 2: and it's done. Really the main thing is to provide
Speaker 2: the electoral College to elect a new pope, so in
Speaker 2: the end it's a decision of the pope, so he
Speaker 2: appoints his own cardinals.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, Bishal. That's it for this
Speaker 1: episode of The Front Page. You can read more about
Speaker 1: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzadherld dot co
Speaker 1: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills
Speaker 1: and Richard Martin, who is also a sound engineer. I'm
Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for
Speaker 1: another look behind the headlines.