Speaker 1: Hilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Society is
Speaker 2: always under pressure to keep up. Given the world around
Speaker 2: us is in a constant state of change. Our education
Speaker 2: sector is no different. Education officials are attempting to crack
Speaker 2: down on the use of artificial intelligence in NCA exams
Speaker 2: after a rise in substantiated breaches last year. It's an
Speaker 2: extra challenge for schools on top of other issues that
Speaker 2: have emerged since COVID, like a decline in student's mental health. Today,
Speaker 2: on the Front Page News Talks That'd be Education reporter
Speaker 2: Jamie Cunningham joins us to discuss the multitude of problems
Speaker 2: facing our education sector. Jamie, tell me a little bit
Speaker 2: about concerns around AI So I understand there were a
Speaker 2: number of NCA exam breaches last year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4: So education officials are cracking down really hard on the
Speaker 4: aius as more students are using things like chat, GPT
Speaker 4: and other tools and it's actually flowed on to exams.
Speaker 3: So last year MZQA.
Speaker 4: Investigated eight hundred and seventy six reported breaches of external assessments.
Speaker 4: Seven hundred and thirty eight were substantiated and the total
Speaker 4: figure is a two hundred and fifty percent increase on
Speaker 4: the twenty nine total which was three hundred and forty five.
Speaker 4: And I guess part of that reason is a lot
Speaker 4: of aius.
Speaker 3: So only fifty nine last.
Speaker 4: Year were reported breaches of involving AI use, but authenticity
Speaker 4: was the most common type of breach with two hundred
Speaker 4: and nine reported cases. But now principles believe that these
Speaker 4: type of cases also involve AI use, But it's just
Speaker 4: I guess that balance between them that it's really hard
Speaker 4: for teachers and marketers to know when the technology is
Speaker 4: being used in exams, so it's possibly been used in
Speaker 4: these external assessments which also involve literacy and numerousy standards now,
Speaker 4: so they can also be or not always in an
Speaker 4: exam setting, so it could be easier in these standards
Speaker 4: to use AI and.
Speaker 3: Things like chat GPT.
Speaker 2: Right, what do these AI breaches look like? So what
Speaker 2: are these kids actually using it for?
Speaker 4: Well, it's different for each student, and normally it's something
Speaker 4: like putting a question into a software like chat, GPT
Speaker 4: or another technology platform and asking it to write an
Speaker 4: essay for them or googling and helping.
Speaker 3: Someone else's work.
Speaker 4: So that's where I guess that authenticity can get brought
Speaker 4: out in the AI use because a lot of that
Speaker 4: is just copying house's work, and so that obviously can
Speaker 4: be AI when a temology has come up with this
Speaker 4: essay or answered all these questions in an exam for them.
Speaker 4: So it's hard to know. And that's what ENZQA are
Speaker 4: also trying to like figure out at the moment is
Speaker 4: how to provide guidance on how AI can benefit education
Speaker 4: and teachers, and how to teach these standards using the tools,
Speaker 4: but also identifying.
Speaker 3: When it's being used and at the wrong times. I guess, I.
Speaker 5: Guess the biggest problem they have sometimes is understanding where
Speaker 5: their work begins and ends and where AI's work begins
Speaker 5: and ends. You know, schools have sort of left it
Speaker 5: up to teachers to decide what's okay to use AI,
Speaker 5: when it's not okay to use use AI, and how
Speaker 5: to use AI, and unfortunately, a lot of students sort
Speaker 5: of see those as guidelines, not really hard rules in
Speaker 5: terms of the honor code. So it's very easy for
Speaker 5: students to see all of their classmates using AI and
Speaker 5: think this is this is okay, this is a tool
Speaker 5: that I'm going to have access to the rest of
Speaker 5: my life. I might as well take advantage of it now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we talk about authenticity, is that when a
Speaker 2: kid in the class, you know, wouldn't have a clue
Speaker 2: about how to write something about I don't know, I'm
Speaker 2: talking from something that I did at school, but writing
Speaker 2: an essay about the Scarlet Letter in class, for example,
Speaker 2: and they're not able to do it, but then they
Speaker 2: miraculously go home and come back tomorrow morning with like
Speaker 2: an amazing essay about the Scarlet Letter and all of
Speaker 2: its themes and pros and things like that. So is
Speaker 2: that where teachers can really question it and be like,
Speaker 2: hang on a minute.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's one example, and I guess one side of things.
Speaker 4: But I've talked to the Secondary Principles Association who they
Speaker 4: also say that it's more challenged to identify those cases
Speaker 4: when it's a talented student and that's someone who's produced
Speaker 4: some really good work throughout the year and then so
Speaker 4: it's not as questioned as much when it's used in
Speaker 4: an exam. So obviously it's easier to identify when a
Speaker 4: student has miraculously produced some piece of work that's so
Speaker 4: different from the rest of their work throughout the year.
Speaker 4: But it is I guess hard to know when the
Speaker 4: AI is being used and students that I don't know
Speaker 4: why they're using it, but they just use it in
Speaker 4: an exam when possibly they don't need to, but they're
Speaker 4: relying on another tool to help them get a better grade.
Speaker 6: And do the benefits of introducing digital assessments outweigh the negatives.
Speaker 2: What I'm thinking here is why can't we just go
Speaker 2: back to pensil and paper exams in person with someone
Speaker 2: watching over your shoulder making sure you're not passing notes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I guess it's a question that the whole
Speaker 4: sector is asking themselves.
Speaker 3: But it's also something that ENDSQA are looking into.
Speaker 4: And I guess how AI can be used to help
Speaker 4: guide students and be used as a tool before they
Speaker 4: get to the examination process. So they're more looking at
Speaker 4: how they can use the technology better, so it's not
Speaker 4: relied on cheating, because it can be used as a
Speaker 4: really useful tool that doesn't always result in cheating, but
Speaker 4: it can help them learn and in that learning process,
Speaker 4: so it doesn't seem like they're looking at turning away
Speaker 4: from using the technology. But the benefits are not not
Speaker 4: all there at the moment, as you can see in
Speaker 4: these stats with the such a big increase on just
Speaker 4: a few years before COVID.
Speaker 3: So it's something they're.
Speaker 4: Looking at, but definitely pen and paper not on their
Speaker 4: radar at the moment.
Speaker 3: So I guess.
Speaker 7: Firstly, our kids are enrolled in Takota, which is the
Speaker 7: New Zealand National Correspondence School. So our kids asked part
Speaker 7: of the New Zealand Ministry of Education and doing their
Speaker 7: learning remotely from our caravan as we travel around.
Speaker 6: All right, tybe, Takuda go.
Speaker 8: The teachers always asked you like if you want that,
Speaker 8: like if you want to do that for school and
Speaker 8: now then I say yes or you can say no.
Speaker 2: Something moving on, Jamie, can you explain to me what
Speaker 2: Takuda is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Tikuda used to be known as the Correspondence School.
Speaker 4: So this was made, you know, almost one hundred years
Speaker 4: ago as a school for students in rural places that
Speaker 4: were so couldn't get to a school in reasonable distance
Speaker 4: each day, so they turned to some kind of online
Speaker 4: learning and head facilities to make sure that they're getting education,
Speaker 4: but not in I guess a stereotypical way in a classroom.
Speaker 4: And so now Tikuta has thirty one thousand students at
Speaker 4: the moment, it's the largest state school in New Zealand.
Speaker 4: But it's no longer called the Correspondence School because it
Speaker 4: has moved away from that model of learning that it
Speaker 4: used to be known for. So enrollments are commonly a
Speaker 4: range of things. So students have to meet eligibility criteria
Speaker 4: to enroll. But this can include students who have families
Speaker 4: living overseas or they've been referred for their engagement and
Speaker 4: this may be by the Department of Corrections or odung
Speaker 4: A Toomadi Keith. It can include young parents or people
Speaker 4: that women that are pregnant, and it can include elite
Speaker 4: athletes as well. So there's a really wide range of
Speaker 4: students who are enrolled now and that's kind of why
Speaker 4: they've moved away from being known as the Correspondence School.
Speaker 2: Yeah, homeschooling was quite a niche thing when I was younger,
Speaker 2: but I'm also a thousand years old, but it does
Speaker 2: sound like it's something more mainstream now.
Speaker 4: Hey, Yeah, and I guess that reflects in these numbers
Speaker 4: that they've seen just exponential growth really since twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4: They've had thirty two percent more enrollments since then, so
Speaker 4: from twenty one thousand to thirty one thousand, and I
Speaker 4: guess it is a niche way of schooling. And people
Speaker 4: may say, is this due to COVID that people want
Speaker 4: to learn online more, but Tikuta is pointing it more
Speaker 4: towards just more students with mental health issues and social
Speaker 4: anxiety really wanting a different type of education just to
Speaker 4: help them and make sure that they're still getting some
Speaker 4: kind of learning, but in a different way from normal.
Speaker 4: So that's why they're seeing this really large growth, and
Speaker 4: they do reckon it's believed to be partly due to COVID,
Speaker 4: So possibly more students have realized the benefits of learning
Speaker 4: online and really enjoy it, and that's why possibly that
Speaker 4: there's been more students, particularly in the year nine to
Speaker 4: thirteen age group as where.
Speaker 3: They're seeing the most growth.
Speaker 4: But they do teach from right from ECE to young adults,
Speaker 4: so a really wide range of age groups there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess if it's seeing more young people
Speaker 2: with mental health needs than a few years ago, I
Speaker 2: guess this is being seen as a success because these
Speaker 2: kids would otherwise just not have gone to school.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's right.
Speaker 4: The Tikuta chief executive, Tarena Leonard, she told me that
Speaker 4: it's just really cool to see that these kids are
Speaker 4: still getting some type of education because they've got that
Speaker 4: more flexibility and they don't need to go to school
Speaker 4: for that typical nine till three hour time slot. They
Speaker 4: can go do some learning at six am and then
Speaker 4: go do something during the day or go back to it.
Speaker 4: And that's why it fits for those more elite athletes
Speaker 4: as well, because there's so much more flexibility. But she
Speaker 4: did remind me that there is fake to face contact
Speaker 4: as well. They've normally got a learning advisor based in
Speaker 4: the area, so it's not all online and there is
Speaker 4: someone checking on them, so they've got that support like
Speaker 4: a teacher like.
Speaker 9: They normally would in a classroom.
Speaker 6: When it comes to the elite athletes.
Speaker 2: Did you see the story a few weeks ago about
Speaker 2: the homeschool kids who missed out in those medals in
Speaker 2: their biking competition because they were homeschooled.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes I did, and it's easy to see how
Speaker 4: that would happen. And I guess Tikuta is different because
Speaker 4: it is a state school and so those kids still
Speaker 4: get those opportunities when homeschooling is so different because it's
Speaker 4: even more flexible than Tikuta in the online learning they provide.
Speaker 4: So it's very easy to see that those opportunities would
Speaker 4: just not be there for homeschooled kids because they're not
Speaker 4: necessary doing the New Zealand curriculum. And I guess maybe
Speaker 4: that's a reason behind why they don't get to get
Speaker 4: these meddles and get the achievements that other students would.
Speaker 4: It's a very fine line other so, yeah, there's more
Speaker 4: in the education space than we think, and there's lots
Speaker 4: of avenues for kids to do, which makes it more
Speaker 4: complex than people I guess think it would be.
Speaker 5: Yea.
Speaker 2: Governments have been talking about mental health and kids for
Speaker 2: years now. Does it feel like a failure that families
Speaker 2: see it as a better option just to keep their
Speaker 2: kids at home.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And it's hard though, because I guess it really depends
Speaker 4: on each each child and it but it is I
Speaker 4: guess concerning that more students are turning to these learning providers.
Speaker 4: Of course there's several others in the country, not just
Speaker 4: to Kuda, but it comes as those that we've got
Speaker 4: the unice OF report that just came out last week
Speaker 4: that found New Zealand has the highest suicide rate and
Speaker 4: the OECD and so it does correlate with what we're
Speaker 4: seeing in these trends to online learning. And it's definitely
Speaker 4: something that people have told me in the sector that
Speaker 4: they want to see more. You've mental health or recognition
Speaker 4: of youth mental health in this budget and see the
Speaker 4: government recognize it more. And because obviously we can't have
Speaker 4: Takuda and other online learning providers overloaded with all these
Speaker 4: children because it's just so so much more known than
Speaker 4: it used to be, and so it's really time for
Speaker 4: more to be done so that it doesn't get to
Speaker 4: the point of all these children being referred because obviously
Speaker 4: all schools in New Zealand are really struggling with resourcing
Speaker 4: at the moment as well.
Speaker 1: How about if children can't speak, are unable to communicate,
Speaker 1: you look at the parents and say, how about you
Speaker 1: do a better job of parenting before your kid comes
Speaker 1: to school. How about principles urge families to do more
Speaker 1: to look after their children instead of bitching and moaning
Speaker 1: about the government demanding better support for kids who are
Speaker 1: not toilet trained at five. It is not the teacher's job.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. It absolutely is not the teacher's job.
Speaker 1: But nor is it the taxpayer's job.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 2: I so you spoke to some school principles saying they're
Speaker 2: grappling with growing numbers of new entrants with behavior and
Speaker 2: oral communication issues.
Speaker 6: What are they saying is to blame here?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, they believe that COVID, the COVID pandemic, had
Speaker 4: a big part to play in this, along with the
Speaker 4: increased screen time that came with lockdowns in that period.
Speaker 4: I talked to New Zealand Principals Federation President lynn Or Tinny,
Speaker 4: and she believes that these children that were born around
Speaker 4: twenty twenty in the COVID period, they also didn't get
Speaker 4: an ECE education like a lot of other kids would,
Speaker 4: and that's why we're seeing that there's a bit of
Speaker 4: a lack of communication skills. She's actually saying that some
Speaker 4: five year olds are turning up to school with virtually
Speaker 4: no communication skills that they can. Teachers cannot even have
Speaker 4: a conversation with these new entrants because of the increased
Speaker 4: screen time and just not enough conversation with other kids
Speaker 4: and teachers while going through that phase from being a
Speaker 4: newborn toddler to a new entrant at schools. So that's
Speaker 4: become really really more frequent after COVID. It's been known
Speaker 4: for a while, but it's really just heightened the whole
Speaker 4: problem at that level.
Speaker 6: And what do we do about that? Yeah, well, this.
Speaker 4: Is the biggest issue for education at the moment is
Speaker 4: the need for learning support funding. So learning support is
Speaker 4: commonly known as teacher aids or people that can help
Speaker 4: those in schools that have neurodiversity or they just cannot
Speaker 4: learn or have trauma issues.
Speaker 3: It's a really wide bracket of people.
Speaker 4: So yeah, So the New Zealand Education Institute, which is
Speaker 4: the primary union for teachers, they say that two point
Speaker 4: five billion dollars in learning support funding is needed by
Speaker 4: twenty thirty to ensure that the waitlists for learning support
Speaker 4: can be white because they're just that overloaded at the moment.
Speaker 4: And Eric Stanford, the Minister of Education, has hinted that
Speaker 4: we can expect more funding and learning support, but we're
Speaker 4: just not sure how much that will be and if
Speaker 4: it will be enough, because it's from who I've talked
Speaker 4: to in the sector.
Speaker 3: It's the number one problem at the moment.
Speaker 4: It's across the board, primary school, high school eces.
Speaker 6: Thanks for joining us, Jamie, awesome.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer.
Speaker 6: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
Speaker 2: behind the headlines.