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Speaker 1: Now, the Order to General has a report out. It's

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Speaker 1: fifty four pages long, and I just bear with me

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Speaker 1: just while I read one little part of it. It

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Speaker 1: essentially says that we don't the Ministry of Education doesn't

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Speaker 1: have enough information about student achievement, which I think is

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Speaker 1: something we know. It's interesting they also talk about inequities

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Speaker 1: in education, so the Ministry knows there wide variations in

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Speaker 1: student achievement between some broadly defined groups. For example, there

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Speaker 1: are long standing disparities between girls and boys in different

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Speaker 1: subjects for students in lower socioeconomic areas, for Mali and

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Speaker 1: Pacific students. We know that right. However, it is also clear,

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Speaker 1: says the report, that some students that belong to these

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Speaker 1: broadly defined student groups are reaching their potential. There are

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Speaker 1: girls who are high achievers in maths and boys who

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Speaker 1: are high achievers in reading. Nine percent of students with

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Speaker 1: the lowest socioeconomic backgrounds achieved excellence in maths nine percent.

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Speaker 1: Why is that happening? Why do some disadvantaged kids achieve

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Speaker 1: and others not. Mark Potter is the president of the NZI.

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Speaker 1: He's with us this morning. Good morning, Mark, Good morning.

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Speaker 1: The report says that the Ministry can't answer that question,

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Speaker 1: do you have an answer?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's actually Alfhae Cohin in America said that

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Speaker 2: standardized testing is a very good way of setting out

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Speaker 2: how big the houses are near the schools where the

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Speaker 2: tests are delivered. So the idea of standized testing giving

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Speaker 2: you in depth information about the complex question the Auditor

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Speaker 2: General is asking. Standardized testing is never going to give

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Speaker 2: it to us. All it's going to test is so

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Speaker 2: receive knowledge, which is only part of the learning of children.

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Speaker 2: The disparity even within socio economic groups, will have answers

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Speaker 2: that we won't find just by testing the children.

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Speaker 1: Are we wasting time and money then throwing millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars at bat programs that are designed to level the

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Speaker 1: playing field. If we can't answer that question, that basic

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Speaker 1: question about it, because that will inform what works right.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a very good question. And the teaching profession

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Speaker 2: has been quite clear for quite some time that we

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Speaker 2: need significant investments in the things that we know will

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Speaker 2: make a difference. We have a waiting lists for specialist

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Speaker 2: support that are too long. We have teachers outnumbered by

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Speaker 2: the number of children with increasing demands in the classrooms.

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Speaker 2: We need more support teacher aids and so on. We

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Speaker 2: need more time for teachers to prepare for an increasingly

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Speaker 2: high expectation that society has of the learning of children.

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Speaker 2: This is where we need investments. We don't need more

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Speaker 2: measurements because we already know these issues that have already

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Speaker 2: been identified. New Zealand, OECD has said, has had the

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Speaker 2: fastest growing social economic gap in the world. And go

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Speaker 2: figure that we have been struggling to maintain the same

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Speaker 2: achievement neals we used to enjoy once upon a time.

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Speaker 2: In fact, as a country, we're an outlier in OECD

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Speaker 2: data because they say we perform much higher in education

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Speaker 2: than our social economic factors indicate we should.

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Speaker 1: Can you say, I mean, you're obviously asking, as you

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Speaker 1: have done previously, asking for more money for teacher aides

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Speaker 1: and all these kinds of things. Can we say that

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Speaker 1: if we put all that money in, because we're spending

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Speaker 1: well eight and a half billion dollars on education at

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Speaker 1: the moment, if we put all that money in, will

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Speaker 1: we get outcomes? Will we get results?

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, we can say that because if you's look

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Speaker 2: into the evidence research around those very factors, they do

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Speaker 2: make significant difference to how children can learn. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of factors outside the schools that schools cannot

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Speaker 2: deal with, so our teachers face inequity on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: But the things that can be done that can be

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Speaker 2: changed within the schools means our minister who does want

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Speaker 2: to make a difference needs to have a government background

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Speaker 2: by given a genuine new money to invest, not to

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Speaker 2: clip and cut suddenly from one part of education and

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Speaker 2: move it to another. We've been doing that for decades

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Speaker 2: and it's not working for our children.

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Speaker 1: All right, Mark, thank you very much for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning. That's Mark Potter, President of the NZEI. Great

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Speaker 1: to have you on. The program is always eight minutes

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Speaker 1: away from six. The Minister will be on with Mike

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Speaker 1: later on this morning for those who are interested. The

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Speaker 1: audis general support. As I said, it is quite long,

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Speaker 1: but it is quite interesting. The fact that they cannot

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Speaker 1: pinpoint why some do better than others. And if you

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Speaker 1: can't pinpoint that, are you not, excuse my French, when

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Speaker 1: you're putting money into programs, just kind of pissing in

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Speaker 1: the wind. For more from Early Edition with Ryan Bridge,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks. It'd be from five am

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Speaker 1: weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,