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Speaker 1: Ninety two. Ninety two is the text number. Standard text

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Speaker 1: fees apply.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The government wants to turn the burden of proof on

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Speaker 1: its head when it comes to new shoplifting fines. Suspects

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Speaker 1: would have to prove their innocence rather than be assumed

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Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty. The Justice Minister, Paul Goldsmith wants

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Speaker 1: to introduce a five hundred dollars infringement fee, doubling to

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Speaker 1: one thousand dollars if the value of the stolen goods

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Speaker 1: is more than five hundred. Steve Cullen is a criminal

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Speaker 1: lawyer and with us now hi, Steve, hi here, how

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Speaker 1: do you feel about this?

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Speaker 2: It's not as surprising as you might think. These are

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Speaker 2: common in what are called regulatory offenses that have happened

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Speaker 2: and occurred and applied for many a year. And that's

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Speaker 2: particularly in the situation of speeding BIA security. I think

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Speaker 2: traffic violations. Would people just get what are really infringement?

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Speaker 2: Notice is you can get off them by proving total

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Speaker 2: absence of fault. But it just makes perfect sense. We've

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Speaker 2: got a way that if not an epidemic of shoplifting occurring,

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Speaker 2: and this gives some protection to the public and some

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Speaker 2: incentive to people to perhaps can instead of what they're

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Speaker 2: doing and stopped doing it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So do you think that because of the circumstances

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Speaker 1: we find ourselves in, it's totally fine to flip the

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Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty on its head.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not really flipping it in that sense. It's

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Speaker 2: what's called a strict liability offense. It's they've applied in

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Speaker 2: the law for a considerable period of time. It's simply

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Speaker 2: regulating people's behavior. You have a defense of saying no,

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Speaker 2: it's not true, for example, But also you have a

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Speaker 2: defense of saying I took all positive steps to avoid it.

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Speaker 2: And you can think of situations where child puts something

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Speaker 2: in the shopping basket, or some stranger places some product

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Speaker 2: into your carriage. But in ordinary and it's going to

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Speaker 2: be very difficult for me to be alleged to have

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Speaker 2: been stealing things unless there is a serious foundation for

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Speaker 2: that allegation.

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Speaker 1: All right, because I freaked out about it, because Steve,

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Speaker 1: I reckon mum's You know, new mums are quite vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to this kind of thing, because first of all, to

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Speaker 1: being busted for being accused of not of having done

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Speaker 1: it when we have because First of all, we have

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Speaker 1: the baby brain, so we're likely to forget that we've

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Speaker 1: come in with, you know, a bottle of milk from

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Speaker 1: the dairy down the road. But then we've also got

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Speaker 1: the means by which to transport it, which is the pram.

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Speaker 1: So if I walk in with a bottle of milk

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of the pram and get accused of shoplifting,

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Speaker 1: the accusation by itself is not sufficient.

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Speaker 2: Well, one would think you would make an explanation, and.

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Speaker 1: That's the I'm a geriatric mother. Yes, they're going to

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Speaker 1: look at me and nonsense. You've actually come in here

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Speaker 1: with the pram to nick it, then what happens.

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Speaker 2: You don't look like somebody be going into fence bottles

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Speaker 2: of milk, ever, and I'm sure most people don't. They're

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Speaker 2: going to use some sort of discretion to determine with

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Speaker 2: there's a reasonable set of circumstances around the situation, too,

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Speaker 2: warrant finding that you've stolen.

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Speaker 1: Will they not have to have some I mean I

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Speaker 1: was going to say, would they not have to have

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Speaker 1: some CCTV of you doing something?

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Speaker 2: But presumably not exactly what. Yes, that crossed my mind.

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Speaker 2: They're going to have video surveillance and a lot of

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Speaker 2: the shops. I don't think part it's going to legislate

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Speaker 2: to say you're in totally get access to it in

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Speaker 2: every circumstance, or it's just going to be an inevitable

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Speaker 2: delay when those people last yealing are going to rely

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Speaker 2: on that to some of there try and avoid responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, listen, thank you. I appreciate your explanation on that. Steve.

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Speaker 1: It's maybe feel a whole bunch better. Steve Cullen, criminal lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and look, I tend to I don't love people being

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Speaker 1: accused of things without the proof, but then the shoplifting

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Speaker 1: is quite bad, isn't it. For more from Heather Duplessy

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