1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Right now is Nikola willis the Finance Minister? High Nikola Hi, Ever, 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: do you think the police have stuffed up this investigation 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: into Michael Forbes. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: Look, I don't know enough to make that conclusion. Obviously, 5 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 2: they have internal processes about what information they escalate up 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: to ministers and they make those judgments accordingly. 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: But also, I mean, so we'll get to that bit. 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: But what about the fact that they've found the sky 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: having filmed people and there's no debate about it, having 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: filmed women through the windows of their houses getting changed, 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: and they haven't charged him for it. It feels like 12 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: a ban that doesn't. 13 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: It's awful behavior and it's horrible. Police have discretion and 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: independence and investigating issues like this and deciding whether there's 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: a case for prosecution. So it's never appropriate for ministers 16 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: to dive in and say we think you should prosecute 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: this person or that person. In this case, I think 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: the actions are horrifying. As the Prime Minister has said, 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: it does raise questions about where the various government agencies 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: involved are talking to each other enough and a deep 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: dive is being done on that. And then the second issue, 22 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: as you raise, is what are the powers available to 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: the police and this instance and do we think that 24 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 2: they're sufficient? And again that's a matter for the Minister Nichol. 25 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: I take your point about police independence and it's a 26 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: fair one. But it would it be appropriate for the 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Police minister to sit down with the Commissioner and ask 28 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: for a police explain as to why nobody told the 29 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: police minister that this guy had had his phone seized 30 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: with a warrant. 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's what the purpose of the deep divers is 32 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: to look into. 33 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: Whatist to not just get the commissioner in and be 34 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: like explain it. 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: I think it should go through a proper process because 36 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: the issue isn't just about the police is it's also 37 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: about security clearances. It's about what information is made available 38 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: to who, How are the processes sufficient? Are the guidelines sufficient? 39 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: So yep, the police are part of it. And as 40 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: I say. 41 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: The Premisi or fair enough, do you deep dive and 42 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: get your answers and stuff. That's fair enough, But what 43 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: about the just immediately getting the getting the police and 44 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: saying what happened? Why didn't you tell us? I mean 45 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: for that for the police to seize his work phone 46 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: with a warrant? Right, is reasonably significant, and I would 47 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: have thought would immediately require letting the Minister know. 48 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: Well, look, I don't know whether the Minister has asked 49 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: the commission of that and whether he has sat down 50 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: or not. Well, that's up to him. But what's really 51 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: important is how do we make sure in the future 52 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: that these issues are managed well? And as I say, 53 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 2: that requires a deeper dive across a range of issues 54 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: that's happening. It's happening at pace, Yeah, and it's appropriate 55 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: that it does Listen. 56 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: Something isn't clear in the reporting of the story, and 57 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: I wonder if you've been briefed about what happened here. 58 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: Did Michael Forbes give his two cell phones, one being 59 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: his work cellphone and one being his personal phone to 60 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: the angry sex workers and then give give them the 61 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: pin to both? Is that what happened? 62 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: Well, that's what it appears from the reporting, doesn't it. 63 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: And then did he leave all things sold on to 64 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: ask her those questions? Because she's the one who's dug 65 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: this story out. But I'm left speculating as much as 66 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 2: you are on how on earth did that occur? Why 67 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 2: did that occur? What were the circumstances all of those 68 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: are questions that I've. 69 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: Because that's quite a big security bread, isn't it. 70 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: Well, I understand why people are asking those questions. Are 71 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: they're pretty significant. I mean, security breach, bad behavior all together, 72 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: terrible incident, and I have to say, you know, there's 73 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: a lot of people in the beehive who are feeling shocked, 74 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: who are feeling betrayed, who are feeling are really uncomfortable. 75 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: So a really sad situation, and not just the beehive, 76 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: the women directly impacted. 77 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: Yeah too, right, Hey, Now, Federated Farmers has launched a 78 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: petition today to try to get the government to allow 79 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: young farmers to use key we savor for their first farm. 80 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: Apparently you guys have promised this. Why haven't you done it? 81 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: Well, I'm actually on the Fed Farmer's side here. So 82 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: sus Redmain, who's the MP for Ranger Take, already has 83 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 2: a member's bill in the ballot to do just that. 84 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: I've asked the Inland Revenue Department, who provide key we 85 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: save advice, to look at that bill and tell me 86 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: why we wouldn't make it a government bill. So they 87 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: are going to give me some advice on that pretty 88 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: shortly and then I'll take recommendations to cabinet. I think 89 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: if you can withdraw your key, we save the funds 90 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: to buy a house, you should be able to withdraw 91 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: them to buy farm. 92 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: There's no one so this is just you guys taking 93 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: your time. There's no opposition from ACT or New Zealand 94 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: versus is just a national party go slow? 95 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: Is it? Well, there could be opposition. I don't know. 96 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: I haven't taken proposals to Cabinet yet. As I say, 97 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: I've asked for advice on what it would take to 98 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: turn that member's bill into a government policy, and based 99 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: on that advice, I tend to take recommendations to cabinet. 100 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 2: Do you have the discussion as we do in the 101 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: normal way. 102 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: It seems to me the farm thing is no brainer. 103 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: But then what about the buying your first flock or 104 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: your first herd? Do you feel the same about that? 105 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: Well, I'd want to look into that because then I 106 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: guess that gets to a range of other issues. Should 107 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: you be able to buy your first set of tools, 108 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: if you're a mechanic, exactly able to buy your first garage? 109 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: I can see the slippers scope argument there, So that's 110 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: something I want more advice on before I've formed of. 111 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: View, Nicholas, what are we going to do about schools 112 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: just spending money on crazy things? Is there some way 113 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: that we can put some auditing in here? 114 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: Well, there is auditing. That's how we know about it, right, 115 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: pretty frequently if the Order to General went and had 116 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: a look. It isn't frequent. But here's what matters about it. 117 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: Everyone listening to the show and everyone who's read that 118 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: story needs to now turn around and look their board 119 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: of trustees and their school leaders in the eyes and say, please, 120 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: don't ever use taxpayers money at my school for those 121 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: sorts of purposes. Use it to lift achievement, because rain 122 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: jackets for teachers are nice, but when the tax payer 123 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: is paying, the question is, what's the straight line between 124 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: that and lifting the literacy and numeracy of our kids? 125 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: Is that all we've got is just sort of giving 126 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: them the hard word and hoping they do the right 127 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: thing until they get audited in another nine years. 128 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: Well, we do the auditing. That's important because it supposes it. 129 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: But we also do expect boards of trustees who are 130 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: self governing entities to uphold the highest standards. We expect 131 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: principles to uphold high stagg. 132 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's so what you know, I mean, expectations 133 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: have obviously led us this way. Look, Nicola, is it 134 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: time for us to rethink actually whether we should have 135 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: these school self governing I. 136 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: Don't think so. I think there is huge value in 137 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 2: having community representatives running a school in a way that 138 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: reflects the concerns of their parent community, with the appropriate support, 139 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: of course, and my judgment would be that these cases 140 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: are rare. My experience has been that most school boards, 141 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: most principles, are very very earnest about ensuring that they 142 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: use taxpayers money very carefully. 143 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: Well you hope. So now, look, Nicola, are we getting 144 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: value for money out of the grocery commissioner? Because the 145 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: grocery commissioner came out with some hard words again for 146 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: the supermarkets and suppliers and blah blah blah over the 147 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: last week, and I just thought, this is just what 148 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: has this guy actually done. 149 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: I tell you what he's done. He's putting together a 150 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: charge sheet against the major players who keep telling you 151 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: that they're doing everything right. 152 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: What's the charge? 153 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: The charge sheet is two pieces of work, one on 154 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: their relationships with suppliers, which shows that many suppliers are 155 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: very unhappy with the way the power and balance in 156 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: that relationship is used against them, are very concerned about 157 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: the terms and conditions imposed on them, and have evidence 158 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: about that that they believe shows that the supply Code 159 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: isn't working and is being made not to work by 160 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: the incumbents. The second thing is they've looked at the 161 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: wholesale regime, which was meant to provide access to wholesale 162 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: groceries for smaller players, and it's clear that that is 163 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: not working at all. A fewer than zero points zero 164 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: three percent of groceries are brought via that. So what 165 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: that means is that the Commerce Commission have set out 166 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: a case to say, when the big players tell you 167 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: that they're doing everything right, the evidence is very clear 168 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: that they are not. They are not making these systems work. 169 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: And that's a problem because you know, the big serf markets, 170 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: they spend millions on pr lawyers, communications, and the one 171 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: thing the New Zealand taxpayer has is a small little 172 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: grocery Commission to go and furnish the other side of 173 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: the story. And those reports are substantive and give evidence 174 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: well on the supplier Code. The Commerce Commission planning to 175 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: rewrite that to tighten it up. And on the wholesale regime, 176 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: they are first saying to the surf markets, sharpen up 177 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: your act because second, if you don't, we have the 178 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: power to put in more regulation to force you to. Now, 179 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: I don't want to be a regulator. I don't want 180 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 2: to be going and doing regulations. But seriously, the big 181 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: players need to get on board. Stop giving it lip service. 182 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: The evidence is in the charred sheet. Is there, respond 183 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: pull up your. 184 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: Side, because I just I feel like it hasn't escaped 185 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: me that there is. There are literal charges being laid 186 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: by the Commerce Commission right against the supermarkets, and I 187 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: feel like that is more successful in actually changing behavior. 188 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: But that's not even from the Grocery commission and that's 189 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: coming from the Commerce team, isn't it. 190 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's very important and it's related to this work. 191 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: And actually when it comes to both of these pieces 192 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: of work, there are penalty regimes attached. But the point 193 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: that the Grocery Commissioner is making is unless the regimes 194 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: are tight enough and working well enough, it's very hard 195 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: to enforce the penalties. But we want to get it working. Yeah, 196 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: And that's what I mean by the charge sheet. If 197 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: the supermarkets don't respond in good faith to these recommendations, 198 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: then actually regulators get forced into more and more punitive measures. 199 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: When are you announcing what you're doing to the supermarkets? 200 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: I will be saying something about that in the next 201 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: couple of months, which is two pieces. One is the 202 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: request of information who responded to that and what our 203 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 2: next leavers are to make it easier for other competitors. 204 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: And the second piece there is how we're going to 205 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 2: make sure that some of these Commerce Commission things have teeth. 206 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: Okay, brilliant. I look forward to it. Thank you very much, 207 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: Nicola Willi's finance ministers. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, 208 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: listen live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 209 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.