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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates.

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Speaker 2: Of theists, Now.

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Speaker 1: The Leyton Smith podcast Coward by news.

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Speaker 3: Talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts two hundred and sixty one for October

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Speaker 2: twenty three, twenty twenty four. Last week I read a

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Speaker 2: couple of essays that were published in close proximity time wise,

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Speaker 2: I mean, in different journals. One was by retired judge

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Speaker 2: Anthony Willie, the second by Jeffrey Tucker from Brownstone Institute,

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Speaker 2: and both were very good, and it occurred that they

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Speaker 2: coupled well together. I did think of having both authors,

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Speaker 2: but elected to stick with Judge Willie. He was the

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Speaker 2: longer commentary anyway, by five pages or so. Now that

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Speaker 2: decision was fortunate because Tony and I talked with ease

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Speaker 2: for fifty minutes and could have gone on for another fifty.

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Speaker 2: As he pointed out to me afterward, these two articles

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Speaker 2: sink well together, and for me it's an example of

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Speaker 2: what I was pointing out or trying to I think

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Speaker 2: last week in the last podcast, which has to do

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Speaker 2: with the increasing number of people who were writing voluminously

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Speaker 2: in some cases and making a living well some are anyway,

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Speaker 2: unless I forget that I've complained on more than one

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Speaker 2: occasion about how much there is out there and how

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Speaker 2: hard it is to get on top of it with

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Speaker 2: so much choice. But I can think of worse now

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Speaker 2: before we talk with Tony Willie two weeks today, fourteen

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Speaker 2: days from now, and we'll be sitting in front of

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Speaker 2: the TV watching the future of the world unfold. And

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Speaker 2: I remember clearly when I was winding up the radio

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Speaker 2: program at midday on election Day twenty sixteen, everyone around

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Speaker 2: me was convinced that the Clinton woman would be the

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Speaker 2: next president. My reaction was, don't get to two excited.

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Speaker 2: It's not over, and Trump will win, I think, and

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Speaker 2: the rest is history, and history is about to repeat itself.

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Speaker 2: I think. In fact, at this point I have little

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Speaker 2: to no doubt that it will be the case. But wait,

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Speaker 2: Trump was supposed to win in twenty twenty, but the

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Speaker 2: numbers for Biden swelled as the night wore on, and

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Speaker 2: in some states, even breaking their own rules, closed down

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Speaker 2: counting for the night for one reason or another, and

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Speaker 2: the staff like a burst water Maine and the staff

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Speaker 2: which wasn't affecting anything, and the staff was sent home.

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Speaker 2: The votes for Biden magically appeared and he won the

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Speaker 2: biggest vote count in history. Amazing. Now could that happen

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Speaker 2: again for Kambala Harris? I don't think so. But when

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Speaker 2: it comes to rearranging reality, the Democrats are second to none.

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Speaker 2: So while anything can happen over the next two weeks,

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Speaker 2: I'll declare a second term for Trump and I won't

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Speaker 2: be surprised if it's a big margin, and I want

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Speaker 2: to throw the word landslide in. I'll think about it

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Speaker 2: and at the back end of the podcast to be

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Speaker 2: a little more on the election and a bit of

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Speaker 2: information with regard to aspects of the American Constitution and

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Speaker 2: how better to understand it, because it's not easy actually

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Speaker 2: to understand, as though in a moment Anthony Willie. Leverix

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Speaker 2: is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

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Speaker 2: Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin.

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Speaker 2: It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal

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Speaker 2: decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief and it

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Speaker 2: works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours. Leverick is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose,

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Speaker 2: deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Levericks is an

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Speaker 2: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next

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Speaker 2: time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into

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Speaker 2: the pharmacy and ask for Leverix l e v Rix

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Speaker 2: Leverx and always read the label. Takes directed and if

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Speaker 2: symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: There was an advertisement when I was young, when you're

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Speaker 2: on a good thing, stick to it. Retired judge Anthony

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Speaker 2: Willie has guested on this podcast on numerous occasions. Why

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Speaker 2: because when you're on a good thing, stick to it.

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Speaker 2: And it's great to welcome you back, Anthony.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. Leighton.

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Speaker 2: So your most recent column, your most recent contra to

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Speaker 2: the Discussion of things, almost knocked me out. Its length

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Speaker 2: was superb. Everything that you said in it was applicable

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Speaker 2: to what's going on and where it's headed. And my

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Speaker 2: guess is that a lot of people will want a

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Speaker 2: copy of this to refer to and to refer others

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Speaker 2: to because it is on target called blowing in the

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Speaker 2: wind Sir Elton John's beautiful lyrics aptly described the parlous

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Speaker 2: position of the fragile candle of enlightenment and reason as

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Speaker 2: it exists in today's world. Both are increasingly assailed by

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Speaker 2: the winds of dogma, ignorance, and deliberate misinformation. What triggered

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Speaker 2: you to put pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard.

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Speaker 4: Well, curiously enough, it was the anniversary of the death

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Speaker 4: of Princess Diana, which doesn't have anything much such relevant,

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Speaker 4: except that it brought to mind Elton John's lyrics. And

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Speaker 4: I was going to write thing about the text of

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Speaker 4: what I did right, and I thought that that was

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Speaker 4: a rap description of what's happening to all of the

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Speaker 4: benefits of the enlightenment that we've for so long taken

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Speaker 4: for granted.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd like to work our way through this through

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Speaker 2: this article as closely as possible and at whatever speed

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Speaker 2: you choose to deliver. But you start off essentially by

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Speaker 2: pointing out that there is an insidious phenomenon invading society.

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Speaker 4: What is it? Well, we've taken for granted for so long.

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Speaker 4: Now the benefits that we acquired from this flowering of

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Speaker 4: thought which occurred in the principle the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

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Speaker 4: And we've sat back and assumed that life will always

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Speaker 4: be like that and our position is secure. But it's

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Speaker 4: not so. We're surrounded with a growing tender see full

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Speaker 4: of the old Marxist doctrines to take hold and doing

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Speaker 4: so very successfully. And of course they're the antithesis of

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Speaker 4: our way of life, which is based on all those

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Speaker 4: things I mentioned in the article free speech, the rule

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Speaker 4: of law, democracy, and so on. And it's something that's

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Speaker 4: really of concern. We don't seem to be grasping that

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Speaker 4: this is occurring in so many different facets of our society.

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Speaker 4: But of course we had the classic example of the

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Speaker 4: previous three years of the so called Labor Government, in

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Speaker 4: which the Marxist philosophy was alive and well, led of

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Speaker 4: course by somebody who wasn't about Marxist and had been

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Speaker 4: the world president of a Marxist society. But we don't

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Speaker 4: seem to really be alert to just how dangerous this

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Speaker 4: is and what is happening.

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Speaker 2: What is it that's preventing the continuation of not just

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Speaker 2: the practice but the teaching of the advantages and what

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Speaker 2: we are discussing actually delivers to society, to individuals, to organizations.

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Speaker 2: It all really comes, I suppose, under the heading of

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Speaker 2: one word freedom.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and really that sums up what is happening,

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Speaker 4: and it's the loss of freedom. And I give a

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Speaker 4: few examples in my article in no particular order. But

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Speaker 4: if you begin by subverting education so that children at

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Speaker 4: school only learn what this part killer group in society

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Speaker 4: want them to learn, and if they are told that

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Speaker 4: their history is irrelevant and that where they came from

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Speaker 4: is in New Zealand anyway is essentially bad m then

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Speaker 4: it starts very early and it's almost impossible to displace

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Speaker 4: some of this teaching as children grow up, because we

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Speaker 4: all know the old Jesuit mantra, give us the child

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Speaker 4: till there's seven, and I'll give you the man. And

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Speaker 4: that's what's happening in education, or had been happening under

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Speaker 4: the previous government. Fortunately that is now being rectified significantly

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Speaker 4: by the present government, but it's going to take a

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Speaker 4: very long time. And there is now a whole generation

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Speaker 4: of young people who have been taught this stuff and

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Speaker 4: believe it, and the story goes on. I mean we

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Speaker 4: saw it during COVID, how medicine was politicized. Without going

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Speaker 4: into detail, the so called pulput of truth dictated what

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Speaker 4: we would do with our lives. We would be locked

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Speaker 4: up and we would have to have if injections of

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Speaker 4: a substance if we wanted to continue to live a

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Speaker 4: relatively normal life and so on. And that's harks back

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Speaker 4: to what you were saying about Ashley Bloomfield and the

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Speaker 4: who and this sinister proposition that medicine is no longer

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Speaker 4: the curing of the sick, it is now part of

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Speaker 4: the national secure see complex which governs our lives.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was going to leave that till later, but

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Speaker 2: seeing that you've you've raised it. The article that that

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Speaker 2: that that came from was by Rob McCulloch. It was

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Speaker 2: on the podcast about six weeks ago. And is Sir

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Speaker 2: Ashley Bloomfield arguing in the New Zealand Medical Journal that

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Speaker 2: this nation should be turned into a police state for

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Speaker 2: the next in brackets inevitable Rose bragget pandemic And I mean,

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Speaker 2: let's ask us a question. But the direction that the

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Speaker 2: article takes is is very obvious. Yes, and this this

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Speaker 2: is a. I can only put it this way. This

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Speaker 2: is an individual that caused chaos as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 2: in this in this country, or contributed to it greatly,

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Speaker 2: and has for whatever reason been awarded the Knighthood for it,

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Speaker 2: and then gone on to greater height of the World

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Speaker 2: Health organization and is now attempting to expand what he

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Speaker 2: first achieved here. Would that be.

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Speaker 4: Careers, absolutely, and it wasn't really apparent from his public utterances.

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Speaker 4: But looking back we know what was behind all this,

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Speaker 4: and that was, as I just mentioned, utilizing what turned

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Speaker 4: out to be a relatively unharmful German if you like,

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Speaker 4: or whatever, measured in terms of the number of people

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Speaker 4: who died, which were very few. Indeed, that was used

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Speaker 4: as a front for closing down New Zealand society. It

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Speaker 4: has never happened in the history of this country that

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Speaker 4: people were locked up in their houses for their own good,

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Speaker 4: the people had to take medicine for their own good

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Speaker 4: and so on. And to think that that is now

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Speaker 4: becoming a derigue in these international organizations is indeed very worrying.

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Speaker 4: And of course the Americans have just said, no, we're

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Speaker 4: not having a bar of that. We'll determine our own

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Speaker 4: health policies. Thank you, But I'm not sure what our

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Speaker 4: governments do about it. They haven't said yet.

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Speaker 2: No, I suspect they're being blown in the direction that

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Speaker 2: the Bloomfield would desire. And well, I hope I'm wrong,

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Speaker 2: but I think I'm right. Anyway, let me go back

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Speaker 2: to just to a bit of history, because this is

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Speaker 2: part of what you were saying is affected kids. You're

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Speaker 2: right after having listed the flowering of free thought and

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Speaker 2: curiosity otherwise known as the Enlightenment, and listed all those

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Speaker 2: things philosophy, law, democracy, medicine, education, freedom of expression, music,

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Speaker 2: economics and technology, etc. All of which are underpinned by

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Speaker 2: unhindered rational thought. That was the social contract Captain Hobson

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Speaker 2: brought to these shows in eighteen forty. It remained the

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Speaker 2: social norm since, but is now as much under threat

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Speaker 2: here as it is throughout the Western world. The threats

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Speaker 2: are numerous and growing, and they assail enlightened thought and

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Speaker 2: practice on all sides. It begins with the degradation of

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Speaker 2: our shared history. Do you think that those who are

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Speaker 2: pushing the shared history are aware of what they're doing.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, they're aware that, to quote day Cart that I think,

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Speaker 4: therefore I am, which was probably the mantra that was

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Speaker 4: at the heart of the Enlightenment, because he said I think,

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Speaker 4: therefore I am. Not what do I read therefore I am?

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Speaker 4: Or not what do I listen to other people telling me?

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Speaker 4: Therefore I am? He promoted rational thought, and that is

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Speaker 4: the one strength that those who would upset and destabilize

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Speaker 4: our way of life have to counter. For as long

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Speaker 4: as people are free to think rather than just listen

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Speaker 4: to what other people tell them, then they're going to

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Speaker 4: get nowhere, These people who would break so much damage

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Speaker 4: on society. So they do they begin by attacking the Enlightenment.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, just talking about there was a well known philosopher

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Speaker 2: I believe who wrote a book called I Drink Therefore

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Speaker 2: I Am. It was a book on wine, of course,

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Speaker 2: So you cover that by saying it's now fashionable at

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Speaker 2: all levels of society to denigrate this process as the

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Speaker 2: product of whiteness and the oppression which accompanied it. And

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Speaker 2: you say, the Marxists are well aware of this crucial

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Speaker 2: fact as they seek to replace history with lies which

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Speaker 2: benefit the growth of the state to the detriment of

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Speaker 2: the individual. Are we being across the board too easily

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Speaker 2: seduced to comply with, to comply and even vote for

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Speaker 2: this approach.

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Speaker 4: Well, well, I think we have been, because we must

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Speaker 4: be among the most complacent societies on the planet really

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Speaker 4: when you look back to think of the strengths of

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Speaker 4: our society and the things we came to rely on,

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Speaker 4: our democracy and the rule of law and education and

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Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff, and we just assumed that

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Speaker 4: would go on forever. And when it was attacked as

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Speaker 4: it was in the last three years of the so

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Speaker 4: called Labor government, nobody seemed to well, very few people

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Speaker 4: seem to notice, and that encouraged those who would replace

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Speaker 4: it with something else to continue with the work. I

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Speaker 4: don't think it's going to go on. I'm confident that

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Speaker 4: with the new coalition government that we will reverse this,

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Speaker 4: but it's going to take time and it's not going to.

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Speaker 2: Be easy correct, and it will be thought, I believe

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Speaker 2: by those in the education system who have had a

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Speaker 2: contribution to driving it absolutely.

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Speaker 4: But I've got a lot of confidence in the present

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Speaker 4: Minister of Education and her deputy, yes David Seymour, that

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Speaker 4: they will do they will do this. I'm quite confident.

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Speaker 2: He's my legal member and I've never met her or

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Speaker 2: spoken to her. It's probably time we got around you.

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Speaker 2: So we covered the education. Then you hit on politicized

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Speaker 2: medicine wherever possible, by introducing racial considerations into the availability

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Speaker 2: of treatment and by supplanting the independence of the medical

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Speaker 2: profession to best manage their patients by substituting state intervention.

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Speaker 2: Can I just relate to you a little example. My doctor,

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Speaker 2: my own doctor, rang me a few months ago, and

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Speaker 2: he was distraught, and I wondered, what the hell is wrong?

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Speaker 2: And it turned out that he'd just been dealing with

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Speaker 2: the department because of an aged patient of his, a

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Speaker 2: woman who needed certain assistance. But she didn't qualify on

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Speaker 2: the age front, because if you were Marie, you were

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Speaker 2: entitled to it in your fifties. She was seventy two,

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Speaker 2: I believe, and she wasn't entitled to it. And he

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Speaker 2: rang me, and really all he wanted to do was

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Speaker 2: just talk to somebody and get it off his chest.

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Speaker 2: And I saw, or heard, rather the desperation in his voice,

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Speaker 2: which was which ran a parallel with what I've been

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Speaker 2: told by other doctors, but not quite so emotionally as this,

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Speaker 2: because there was nothing that he could do for the

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Speaker 2: woman without the Health Department's contribution. Yes, so there we

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Speaker 2: are politiciz medicine. Have you have you got anything else

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Speaker 2: in mind besides what we went through in COVID.

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Speaker 4: Well, yes, the push towards rationing medicine on the basis

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Speaker 4: of ethnicity, now that is a essentially a political notion

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Speaker 4: because it divides society and you divide and rule. That

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Speaker 4: became the norm under the previous government. And indeed you

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Speaker 4: ticked a box where you went along declaring what you're

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Speaker 4: whether or not you had married ethnicity, and unfortunately that

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Speaker 4: is still alive. And well, I mean, one is these

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Speaker 4: stories of just recently on this week, I heard of

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Speaker 4: a woman who went along to a surgery and the

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Speaker 4: first question was what is your ethnicity? I can't, for

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Speaker 4: the life of me now understand why any any doctor

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Speaker 4: or nurse would be remotely interested in that, because the

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Speaker 4: government has made it abundantly clear that that is no

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Speaker 4: longer a relevant consideration. But it gives an indication of

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Speaker 4: just how deep seated these things became, bearing in mind

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Speaker 4: after only three years of indoctrination.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, moving on to the seeking to destabilize the legal systems,

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Speaker 2: as you feel, of course for most of your life.

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Speaker 2: Is it and we've discussed it before, but is it

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Speaker 2: better now, worse now, or still much in the same place.

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Speaker 4: Well, latent, it's hard to know how to describe this now,

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Speaker 4: but except to say it's incomparably worse. I suppose you

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Speaker 4: saw Murial Newman. She conducts these poles. At the end

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Speaker 4: of her series of article was on any given week,

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Speaker 4: and one of them, one of the questions was have

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Speaker 4: you any confidence in the judiciary? Ninety eight percent of

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Speaker 4: the respondent said no, they have no confidence now in

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Speaker 4: the judiciary. I mean that is a truly appalling statistic,

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Speaker 4: because unless people believe that when things go wrong and

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Speaker 4: they need to invoke the law, they can go along

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Speaker 4: to a court and have a hearing before an impartial tribunal,

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Speaker 4: well that opens the way to anarchy. Really, so people

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Speaker 4: would instead of going along a court, will make their

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Speaker 4: own arrangements. And we're back with you two and all

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Speaker 4: that goes with that. This destabilization is now very apparent

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Speaker 4: in the universities, in the law societies, and on the judiciary,

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Speaker 4: and we have this concerted push to introduce notions of

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Speaker 4: spiritual beliefs into the law called tea care, whatever that means,

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Speaker 4: because if you look at the dictionary you'll get at

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Speaker 4: least a dozen different meanings, so that the law which

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Speaker 4: the judges then are expected to administer will no longer

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Speaker 4: be knowable in advanced it will no longer be certain,

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Speaker 4: and it will no longer be applicable to everybody who

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Speaker 4: appears before them. Now that's something which of course goes

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Speaker 4: in one ear and out the other for most people

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Speaker 4: as they get on with their lives, you can't blame

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Speaker 4: them until they want to invoke the law. And if

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Speaker 4: this continues unchecked, we are going to be in serious

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Speaker 4: trouble with that pillar of our way of life, that

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Speaker 4: is the legal system and ry. I think there's every

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Speaker 4: indication at the moment that the present Attorney General is

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Speaker 4: deeply conscious of this, and my hope is that she

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Speaker 4: will do all she can to ensure that the sort

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Speaker 4: of people who are pointed to the judiciary at all

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Speaker 4: levels are not subject to these temptations of imposing their

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Speaker 4: own private thoughts and moras on the public. But it's

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Speaker 4: a long process because these people are there for they

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Speaker 4: could be there for twenty years, and that in that

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Speaker 4: time can do a lot of damage. And that is

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Speaker 4: why to preserve sorry to go on, but that is

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Speaker 4: why to preserve the integrity of the legal system. We

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Speaker 4: need legislation which will make it abundantly clear that tribal

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Speaker 4: practices are not part of the common law of New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: And that will stop certain members of our judiciary at

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Speaker 4: the highest levels. It's one of your previous interviewees expanded upon.

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Speaker 4: It'll stop this business of Oh, I think it would

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Speaker 4: be a good idea if we gave try or society

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Speaker 4: a bit of a leg up by introducing teaking are

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Speaker 4: into the common law. It can't happen. If it does,

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Speaker 4: we will not have a legal system.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you don't have a legal system, you've got

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Speaker 2: chaos exactly. Can you give me a warning, you know,

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Speaker 2: enough time to sell the house and bolt.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well actually, actually, just looking at looking at your article,

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Speaker 2: you finish up on the legal system with the socialists.

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Speaker 2: It's an outcome necessary if existing social norms are to

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Speaker 2: be destroyed, is your final sentence. And then I turned

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Speaker 2: the page and read introduce chaos into the sovereign Parliament.

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, Winston Peters has been drawing it tension to

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Speaker 4: this recently. I mean for most people. They took again,

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Speaker 4: they took their parliament for granted. They assume that it

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Speaker 4: would be a place of relatively rational debate, where the

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Speaker 4: members attempted to rely upon facts, and that they preserve

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Speaker 4: the dignity of the place. I mean to look at

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Speaker 4: a parliament on television now, it's so embarrassing. As Winston

357
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Speaker 4: points out, people make no attempt to dressed respectfully. That's

358
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Speaker 4: showing some respect for the institution they're in. They shout

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Speaker 4: each other down.

360
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Speaker 2: That's not unusual though on a global basis.

361
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Speaker 4: No it's not, But it's big gaining impetus since the

362
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Speaker 4: last elect or the previous election.

363
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Speaker 2: For anybody who's not following it like you you are

364
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Speaker 2: and watching parliament on a regular basis, has the abuse

365
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Speaker 2: become more savage, Yes.

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Speaker 4: It has, But it's become more irrational too.

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Speaker 2: Well, they go hand in hand on it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And that's the worry again. It's the flight

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Speaker 4: of reason, and once that goes out the window, once

370
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Speaker 4: people stop relying on rational thought, well we all know

371
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Speaker 4: where it will end up.

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Speaker 2: Well, the flight of reason is a is a wonderful

373
00:28:45,413 --> 00:28:49,693
Speaker 2: little quote and it's applicable on a number of fronts.

374
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Speaker 2: Subverting the common language. And this is an easy one,

375
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Speaker 2: and it's the shortest one of the points that you

376
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Speaker 2: go into for I think obvious reasons, because it's steering

377
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Speaker 2: you in the face no matter where or what you do.

378
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Speaker 4: Well, Yes, we have enjoyed the English language as our

379
00:29:10,773 --> 00:29:13,973
Speaker 4: common language. Now that's just an accident of history. There's

380
00:29:14,053 --> 00:29:23,493
Speaker 4: nothing particularly necessary or good about that, but it just

381
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Speaker 4: so happens. We've got it, and for the last one

382
00:29:29,053 --> 00:29:32,933
Speaker 4: hundred and forty odd years it's been our common language.

383
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Speaker 4: But within the last ten years there's been this movement

384
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Speaker 4: towards inventing a new language by using marry words to

385
00:29:47,693 --> 00:29:54,173
Speaker 4: describe concepts which were utterly outside of their experience at

386
00:29:54,173 --> 00:30:01,773
Speaker 4: the time their language was being developed. Now that's not

387
00:30:01,813 --> 00:30:06,453
Speaker 4: to say that their language shouldn't be preserved by all means.

388
00:30:06,493 --> 00:30:10,693
Speaker 4: It must be preserved, but you don't take it and

389
00:30:10,733 --> 00:30:19,733
Speaker 4: then bastardize another language with words that have cannot have

390
00:30:19,853 --> 00:30:23,773
Speaker 4: had any meaning at the time these particular words were

391
00:30:24,253 --> 00:30:27,893
Speaker 4: first thought up. And as I think I've said to

392
00:30:27,893 --> 00:30:32,813
Speaker 4: you before, my favorite is moto car m o t

393
00:30:33,013 --> 00:30:39,773
Speaker 4: o ka. Now that that just illustrates the sort of

394
00:30:39,773 --> 00:30:43,013
Speaker 4: thing that's going on, and to walk into a coffee

395
00:30:43,053 --> 00:30:51,253
Speaker 4: shop and see a sign outside which says kof ee

396
00:30:52,253 --> 00:30:56,613
Speaker 4: and in brackets underneath a noun and underneath that coffee.

397
00:30:57,013 --> 00:30:59,973
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just silly, really, and it's demeaning to

398
00:31:00,093 --> 00:31:04,453
Speaker 4: the Mari language, which should be kept intact for those

399
00:31:04,533 --> 00:31:08,613
Speaker 4: who want to learn it as it as it was

400
00:31:08,613 --> 00:31:12,493
Speaker 4: in speaking, if they wish. But however it's happening.

401
00:31:13,173 --> 00:31:22,013
Speaker 2: Subject of science, of course, as you say, is at

402
00:31:22,053 --> 00:31:26,453
Speaker 2: the very heart of the Enlightenment, and I don't know

403
00:31:26,453 --> 00:31:29,813
Speaker 2: anybody who would argue with that. The corruption of science

404
00:31:29,853 --> 00:31:33,053
Speaker 2: is now widespread. For example, it is now widely accepted

405
00:31:33,093 --> 00:31:36,693
Speaker 2: in increasingly influential circles that rivers are no longer nature's

406
00:31:36,733 --> 00:31:40,213
Speaker 2: way of draining rainwater and snow melt from high places

407
00:31:40,253 --> 00:31:43,293
Speaker 2: to the sea, but they have some spiritual quality which

408
00:31:43,373 --> 00:31:46,533
Speaker 2: must be taken into account in planning and control of

409
00:31:46,693 --> 00:31:49,933
Speaker 2: catchments and fresh water usage. I didn't mean to read

410
00:31:49,973 --> 00:31:55,453
Speaker 2: all that, but once I started, I needed to anti science.

411
00:31:55,773 --> 00:32:00,093
Speaker 2: You might call it in general, How does it well?

412
00:32:00,133 --> 00:32:03,173
Speaker 2: I know of examples, and so I have a somewhat

413
00:32:03,213 --> 00:32:05,613
Speaker 2: of a grasp on it. When it comes to professions

414
00:32:05,653 --> 00:32:12,013
Speaker 2: like engineering, which is a science, there is an undermining

415
00:32:12,213 --> 00:32:16,173
Speaker 2: of the basis of it to an extent that is

416
00:32:17,173 --> 00:32:22,413
Speaker 2: unwarrantable and could see some dangerous things happen in buildings

417
00:32:22,413 --> 00:32:24,613
Speaker 2: in the future. Mind you, we haven't been too good

418
00:32:24,613 --> 00:32:31,893
Speaker 2: at adhering to strict build ology may would over the

419
00:32:31,973 --> 00:32:35,853
Speaker 2: past few decades. But expand on that as how science

420
00:32:35,893 --> 00:32:36,613
Speaker 2: is concerned, would you.

421
00:32:37,373 --> 00:32:41,933
Speaker 4: Yes, well, I think the attitude of the Royal Society

422
00:32:43,533 --> 00:32:47,813
Speaker 4: of New Zealand to that. I forget his name now,

423
00:32:47,813 --> 00:32:50,413
Speaker 4: but he was an eminent scientist, and he also had

424
00:32:51,733 --> 00:32:58,533
Speaker 4: qualifications of sympathetic involvement with the mary community. And he

425
00:32:58,613 --> 00:33:01,573
Speaker 4: wrote an article in which he castigates in which he

426
00:33:02,133 --> 00:33:08,173
Speaker 4: pointed out that they introduce the introduction of these sort

427
00:33:08,213 --> 00:33:13,453
Speaker 4: of spiritual values as the equivalent of science and as

428
00:33:13,493 --> 00:33:18,213
Speaker 4: a part of science, would only end up denigrating science,

429
00:33:18,373 --> 00:33:23,173
Speaker 4: and it would put this country back economically and socially

430
00:33:24,573 --> 00:33:31,413
Speaker 4: to the dark ages. Really, And I've always remembered when

431
00:33:31,453 --> 00:33:35,213
Speaker 4: I was doing environment court cases, one of the judges

432
00:33:35,253 --> 00:33:37,733
Speaker 4: coming to me and saying he had a problem that

433
00:33:38,933 --> 00:33:43,253
Speaker 4: he was doing a case involving the Waikato River and

434
00:33:43,293 --> 00:33:46,093
Speaker 4: a gentleman has turned up and said, well, you can't

435
00:33:46,173 --> 00:33:50,893
Speaker 4: grant this because it would offend the Tannyfars, and he

436
00:33:50,933 --> 00:33:54,413
Speaker 4: didn't quite know how to deal with that because he

437
00:33:54,453 --> 00:33:57,693
Speaker 4: didn't quite know what they were or what their standing

438
00:33:57,933 --> 00:34:01,013
Speaker 4: was in the proceedings inside. It just makes a nonsense

439
00:34:01,053 --> 00:34:06,613
Speaker 4: of the whole thing. So it's happening, and again it's

440
00:34:06,693 --> 00:34:13,533
Speaker 4: just something else that somehow the government and society has

441
00:34:13,573 --> 00:34:14,373
Speaker 4: got to deal with.

442
00:34:15,253 --> 00:34:19,093
Speaker 2: And it won't be it won't be simple. Talking of standing,

443
00:34:20,853 --> 00:34:23,893
Speaker 2: the first time I heard that word being used in

444
00:34:23,933 --> 00:34:28,253
Speaker 2: the sense that you are using it was with the

445
00:34:28,333 --> 00:34:32,293
Speaker 2: Supreme Court in America who denied denied a hearing to

446
00:34:32,333 --> 00:34:36,933
Speaker 2: somebody because they didn't have standing. So would it be possible,

447
00:34:36,973 --> 00:34:41,373
Speaker 2: for instance, would it be legitimate for that judge who

448
00:34:41,453 --> 00:34:45,493
Speaker 2: you just described to say simply, I'm sorry, but Tanaphars

449
00:34:45,533 --> 00:34:48,133
Speaker 2: don't have standing, or any judge to say it Tanophars

450
00:34:48,133 --> 00:34:48,893
Speaker 2: don't have standing.

451
00:34:49,453 --> 00:34:56,853
Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly what he did. Yes, these cases are

452
00:34:56,893 --> 00:35:01,253
Speaker 4: concerned with provable facts, not miss well.

453
00:35:01,253 --> 00:35:03,533
Speaker 2: That leaves me wondering whether the judge wasn't as bright

454
00:35:03,573 --> 00:35:06,933
Speaker 2: as he should be or I'm brighter than I thought.

455
00:35:08,413 --> 00:35:08,973
Speaker 4: A good judge.

456
00:35:11,773 --> 00:35:15,533
Speaker 2: Look, there is there is. You've mentioned the Royal Society,

457
00:35:15,573 --> 00:35:21,213
Speaker 2: the Engineers Society, whatever it's called, has fallen in down

458
00:35:21,253 --> 00:35:26,613
Speaker 2: the same rabbit hole. Yes, and it's causing. It's causing

459
00:35:26,853 --> 00:35:30,493
Speaker 2: in the lives and minds of a couple of people

460
00:35:30,533 --> 00:35:32,933
Speaker 2: I know, some ridiculous situations.

461
00:35:33,733 --> 00:35:37,413
Speaker 4: Yes. Yes, I've got a very close friend who's a

462
00:35:37,533 --> 00:35:43,173
Speaker 4: retired civil engineer many years standing, who's had to tell

463
00:35:43,293 --> 00:35:48,013
Speaker 4: his institute please stop sending me this publication monthly because

464
00:35:48,213 --> 00:35:51,773
Speaker 4: I'm afraid I can't read most of the language is written,

465
00:35:51,773 --> 00:35:55,973
Speaker 4: and very little of it's got to do anything to

466
00:35:56,053 --> 00:36:00,093
Speaker 4: do with engineering, whether the bridge stays up or the

467
00:36:00,133 --> 00:36:01,933
Speaker 4: sewerage system works.

468
00:36:02,373 --> 00:36:04,973
Speaker 2: That's what i'm That's what I'm told by somebody who

469
00:36:05,053 --> 00:36:07,493
Speaker 2: is who is at the top of the game.

470
00:36:08,133 --> 00:36:11,613
Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh, it's happening, There's no question about it.

471
00:36:11,773 --> 00:36:15,173
Speaker 2: Global warming is your is your next suggestion the subject

472
00:36:15,213 --> 00:36:17,293
Speaker 2: of whether why did you include global warming?

473
00:36:19,573 --> 00:36:22,973
Speaker 4: Because, as I said the article, for me, it's the

474
00:36:23,813 --> 00:36:28,053
Speaker 4: poster child of the journey away from science and from

475
00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:31,933
Speaker 4: it's the poster child of the journey away from days descartes.

476
00:36:32,413 --> 00:36:36,933
Speaker 4: I think, therefore, I am because people who believe in

477
00:36:36,973 --> 00:36:41,533
Speaker 4: it only believe, well they believe, which is a religious concept,

478
00:36:41,613 --> 00:36:45,973
Speaker 4: but they only believe what they read or what other

479
00:36:46,133 --> 00:36:51,733
Speaker 4: people tell them. People who question it do some they

480
00:36:51,773 --> 00:36:54,653
Speaker 4: do their thinking, and then they look to the facts

481
00:36:55,253 --> 00:37:01,773
Speaker 4: and what's provable and what's not. And the result is

482
00:37:01,813 --> 00:37:05,293
Speaker 4: and it harks back to what we were talking about earlier.

483
00:37:05,333 --> 00:37:10,653
Speaker 4: This is one of the new constraints on society and

484
00:37:10,733 --> 00:37:14,493
Speaker 4: on free thought, that if you don't believe in global warming,

485
00:37:15,173 --> 00:37:19,053
Speaker 4: then you are a danger and you are misinforming the public,

486
00:37:19,973 --> 00:37:24,493
Speaker 4: and it's got to stop. And you'll recall the President

487
00:37:24,573 --> 00:37:32,053
Speaker 4: Obama's climate za was a fellow John Kerry. I heard it.

488
00:37:32,453 --> 00:37:36,573
Speaker 4: I sat and watched him say this, that he's deeply

489
00:37:36,693 --> 00:37:41,333
Speaker 4: concerned about the effect of the First Amendment to the

490
00:37:41,373 --> 00:37:48,653
Speaker 4: American Constitution, which of course ensured freedom of thought and expression,

491
00:37:49,053 --> 00:37:52,893
Speaker 4: and he thought that that was a license for misinformation

492
00:37:53,133 --> 00:37:57,173
Speaker 4: and it's got to stop. And he actually canvas ways

493
00:37:57,253 --> 00:38:02,093
Speaker 4: in which the Senate and the House could engineer the

494
00:38:02,173 --> 00:38:08,013
Speaker 4: repeal of the First Amendment. So global warming isn't just

495
00:38:08,373 --> 00:38:14,333
Speaker 4: something that's interesting to commentate us. It has this lurking

496
00:38:15,173 --> 00:38:19,613
Speaker 4: danger as well in terms of freedom of thought and

497
00:38:19,693 --> 00:38:23,493
Speaker 4: freedom of expression. As I say, it's a religious concept.

498
00:38:24,893 --> 00:38:30,493
Speaker 4: And I was appalled at the treatment given to Maureen Pure,

499
00:38:30,653 --> 00:38:34,333
Speaker 4: the Member for the West Coast for National.

500
00:38:34,173 --> 00:38:38,253
Speaker 3: Was disgusting, absolutely appalling, and she was hung out to

501
00:38:38,373 --> 00:38:40,853
Speaker 3: dry because all she said was that she's waiting for

502
00:38:40,893 --> 00:38:44,973
Speaker 3: the evidence on what caused the bad weather on the

503
00:38:45,013 --> 00:38:45,613
Speaker 3: East coast.

504
00:38:46,133 --> 00:38:49,693
Speaker 4: And that really alarms me that we have in the

505
00:38:49,773 --> 00:38:56,133
Speaker 4: house a number of senior MPs who were quite unashamed

506
00:38:56,173 --> 00:38:59,813
Speaker 4: of you. Tell you all I believe in global warming. Well,

507
00:38:59,893 --> 00:39:02,533
Speaker 4: you can go along and believe in whatever you like,

508
00:39:02,733 --> 00:39:04,133
Speaker 4: but let's get some facts.

509
00:39:06,413 --> 00:39:10,133
Speaker 2: It's timey that I read early today an article which

510
00:39:10,133 --> 00:39:12,053
Speaker 2: I don't have in front of me. I wasn't going

511
00:39:12,093 --> 00:39:15,213
Speaker 2: to I wasn't going to utilize it. And it refers

512
00:39:15,253 --> 00:39:20,533
Speaker 2: to the article refers to a new study that has

513
00:39:20,893 --> 00:39:27,293
Speaker 2: just been released and there is no evidence of global

514
00:39:27,333 --> 00:39:30,933
Speaker 2: warming since the nineteen seventies, in spite of it says,

515
00:39:30,973 --> 00:39:36,053
Speaker 2: in spite of the so called records in Europe last year,

516
00:39:37,613 --> 00:39:40,373
Speaker 2: this is all from memory, they say. You won't read this,

517
00:39:40,453 --> 00:39:44,173
Speaker 2: of course in the mainstream media, but not just a report.

518
00:39:44,573 --> 00:39:47,733
Speaker 2: It's a major study put together by a bunch of

519
00:39:47,773 --> 00:39:49,333
Speaker 2: serious scientists.

520
00:39:50,573 --> 00:39:56,293
Speaker 4: But that's the concern in this particular area, Lason, that

521
00:39:56,973 --> 00:40:01,573
Speaker 4: how on earth any rational person can believe that a

522
00:40:01,693 --> 00:40:07,733
Speaker 4: gas which surprises no point, not four percent of total

523
00:40:08,413 --> 00:40:14,373
Speaker 4: atmospheric gases, and which is crucial for the continuation of

524
00:40:14,453 --> 00:40:21,973
Speaker 4: life on the planet, could be causing the Earth's climate

525
00:40:22,493 --> 00:40:26,973
Speaker 4: to change. And I have not the slightest doubt that

526
00:40:27,053 --> 00:40:31,373
Speaker 4: the Earth's climate changes continually. And you've only got to

527
00:40:31,413 --> 00:40:35,813
Speaker 4: look back through more recent history to see the freezing

528
00:40:35,893 --> 00:40:40,533
Speaker 4: of the Thames and the medieval warming period and sun

529
00:40:41,853 --> 00:40:45,013
Speaker 4: that's unexceptional when you think we're just a rock hurling

530
00:40:45,053 --> 00:40:53,613
Speaker 4: around in space with a core that's molten rock, subject

531
00:40:53,653 --> 00:40:56,933
Speaker 4: to all the outside influences and the elliptical all but

532
00:40:57,053 --> 00:41:00,453
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. But the people who

533
00:41:00,493 --> 00:41:04,573
Speaker 4: believe in this that they're not interested in the facts.

534
00:41:05,733 --> 00:41:08,693
Speaker 4: And that's where it comes back to the flight from

535
00:41:09,573 --> 00:41:13,733
Speaker 4: the Enlightenment and reason. Once you depart from the facts,

536
00:41:15,253 --> 00:41:16,853
Speaker 4: you're lost. You're at a swamp.

537
00:41:17,173 --> 00:41:23,053
Speaker 2: Yes, not just in Washington. I actually I like to

538
00:41:23,053 --> 00:41:26,933
Speaker 2: come back to that subject briefly. When we conclude one

539
00:41:26,933 --> 00:41:31,053
Speaker 2: of my favorites is next the mainstream media take it away.

540
00:41:31,773 --> 00:41:34,133
Speaker 4: Well, it's just a disgrace at the moment, isn't it.

541
00:41:34,213 --> 00:41:39,693
Speaker 4: I mean examples they crop up every night on say

542
00:41:39,773 --> 00:41:46,653
Speaker 4: TV en Z one news in a news bulletin which

543
00:41:47,493 --> 00:41:51,853
Speaker 4: maybe comprises half an hour of so called news. To

544
00:41:51,933 --> 00:41:57,013
Speaker 4: spend ten minutes dwelling upon some unfortunate young man who

545
00:41:57,013 --> 00:42:00,413
Speaker 4: filled himself up with drugs and alcohol and fell off

546
00:42:00,453 --> 00:42:06,573
Speaker 4: a balcony in Barcelona is to be utterly absurd when

547
00:42:06,573 --> 00:42:11,493
Speaker 4: there are so many things going on that cry out

548
00:42:11,693 --> 00:42:18,013
Speaker 4: for reporting and informing the public. And I'm not a

549
00:42:18,013 --> 00:42:25,653
Speaker 4: bit surprised that the state broadcaster is in dire straits.

550
00:42:25,813 --> 00:42:30,253
Speaker 4: Should it be solved, The trouble is, well, who would

551
00:42:30,293 --> 00:42:34,533
Speaker 4: buy it? The trouble is what are you replace it with?

552
00:42:35,373 --> 00:42:39,173
Speaker 4: Wouldn't it be better just to ensure that the board

553
00:42:40,293 --> 00:42:44,933
Speaker 4: takes control of the thing and they only employ well,

554
00:42:44,973 --> 00:42:47,333
Speaker 4: first of all, they have a code of conduct which

555
00:42:47,413 --> 00:42:51,933
Speaker 4: requires them all to act impartially and fairly and so on,

556
00:42:53,253 --> 00:42:55,933
Speaker 4: and need to only employ people who are capable of

557
00:42:55,933 --> 00:42:57,333
Speaker 4: complying with that code.

558
00:42:57,453 --> 00:43:00,533
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of things I'd suggest. First of all,

559
00:43:00,613 --> 00:43:05,453
Speaker 2: in Australia, the ABC, where they have a much larger population,

560
00:43:05,693 --> 00:43:15,613
Speaker 2: much much broader selection possibility of appointees. The ABC is

561
00:43:16,253 --> 00:43:20,173
Speaker 2: run by the journalists. The news division is run by

562
00:43:20,173 --> 00:43:24,933
Speaker 2: the journalists and not the not the board. They one

563
00:43:25,013 --> 00:43:28,133
Speaker 2: or two have tried to make amendments and they fail

564
00:43:28,773 --> 00:43:33,933
Speaker 2: because the staff believes that they own it. And so

565
00:43:34,133 --> 00:43:38,373
Speaker 2: the situation here, of course is that we have a

566
00:43:38,573 --> 00:43:41,773
Speaker 2: much more limited pool to choose people from it. I'm

567
00:43:41,813 --> 00:43:46,773
Speaker 2: budding whether there would be anyone, if not enough, who

568
00:43:46,813 --> 00:43:51,253
Speaker 2: would be game enough to put their lives on the line,

569
00:43:51,533 --> 00:43:53,413
Speaker 2: I mean their professional lives.

570
00:43:53,733 --> 00:43:57,093
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Well, I think if if it had a

571
00:43:57,173 --> 00:44:05,253
Speaker 4: board that was sufficiently rigorous and kept close eye on,

572
00:44:05,813 --> 00:44:09,173
Speaker 4: almost on a daily basis of what was big edit done,

573
00:44:09,853 --> 00:44:14,213
Speaker 4: then these people could be called out. And I think

574
00:44:14,333 --> 00:44:16,773
Speaker 4: human nature being what it is, they'd get the message

575
00:44:16,773 --> 00:44:19,333
Speaker 4: if they want to keep a job and earn a living,

576
00:44:19,893 --> 00:44:26,293
Speaker 4: and they would change their attitude to well, for example,

577
00:44:26,653 --> 00:44:30,013
Speaker 4: they're reporting of politics in New Zealand, which is so

578
00:44:30,213 --> 00:44:32,253
Speaker 4: one sided it's just a joke really.

579
00:44:33,813 --> 00:44:35,653
Speaker 2: But what would be the what would be the case

580
00:44:35,813 --> 00:44:41,053
Speaker 2: after the after the change government, after we change government?

581
00:44:41,613 --> 00:44:46,213
Speaker 2: At an excellent to just revert back again absolutely, because

582
00:44:46,213 --> 00:44:49,173
Speaker 2: there is no sorry, there is no we'll use a

583
00:44:49,213 --> 00:44:52,813
Speaker 2: shipping term here, there is no solid draft on that ship.

584
00:44:53,693 --> 00:44:57,213
Speaker 4: No no, and that's that's a risk that we do run.

585
00:44:58,013 --> 00:45:02,173
Speaker 4: But as the previous labor lot showed, my word you

586
00:45:02,253 --> 00:45:06,933
Speaker 4: can embed some stuff very very quickly, and hopefully this

587
00:45:07,253 --> 00:45:11,453
Speaker 4: present coalition government is there long enough to embed the

588
00:45:11,573 --> 00:45:14,373
Speaker 4: sort of thing we're talking about, so it becomes the norm.

589
00:45:15,653 --> 00:45:18,613
Speaker 4: But it's pretty fragile here we are.

590
00:45:18,933 --> 00:45:22,373
Speaker 2: Yeh. So freedom of association is you're the next on

591
00:45:23,373 --> 00:45:27,373
Speaker 2: your list, and I think we've probably covered that reatably well.

592
00:45:27,533 --> 00:45:32,533
Speaker 4: So democracy, well, I left that in the economy to

593
00:45:32,613 --> 00:45:38,053
Speaker 4: the end, because if you're going to impose a sort

594
00:45:38,093 --> 00:45:44,093
Speaker 4: of communist Marxist type government on a country, the thing

595
00:45:44,213 --> 00:45:48,253
Speaker 4: you've got to do first is to destabilized democracy with

596
00:45:48,413 --> 00:45:52,053
Speaker 4: a view to getting rid of it entirely. And when

597
00:45:52,053 --> 00:45:56,653
Speaker 4: do you look around the world, the democracies, generally speaking

598
00:45:58,013 --> 00:46:05,053
Speaker 4: are the prosperous and relatively settled nations and the other

599
00:46:05,173 --> 00:46:12,773
Speaker 4: lot the communists are continually at odds with themselves with

600
00:46:12,933 --> 00:46:18,013
Speaker 4: economies that have to be by the stolen from from

601
00:46:18,133 --> 00:46:24,493
Speaker 4: the West or depend substantially on oil. So admitted to me,

602
00:46:24,653 --> 00:46:30,733
Speaker 4: it's just plain as the nose really that we cannot

603
00:46:30,893 --> 00:46:37,573
Speaker 4: afford to see our democracy placed in jeopardy at all.

604
00:46:38,213 --> 00:46:41,453
Speaker 4: It's something that is that is essential that we fight

605
00:46:41,613 --> 00:46:41,813
Speaker 4: for it.

606
00:46:42,533 --> 00:46:45,093
Speaker 2: What bothers me about what you just said is that

607
00:46:45,613 --> 00:46:47,813
Speaker 2: I think I'm fair insane. You need people with a

608
00:46:47,933 --> 00:46:51,693
Speaker 2: certain degree of intelligence to take that on, and it

609
00:46:51,773 --> 00:46:54,813
Speaker 2: seems to me that we might be losing most of them.

610
00:46:55,013 --> 00:46:58,013
Speaker 2: If not, well, it will never be all of them,

611
00:46:58,093 --> 00:47:03,213
Speaker 2: but most of them to overseas. I mean, we don't

612
00:47:03,253 --> 00:47:05,373
Speaker 2: need to go into stories about people we know, including

613
00:47:05,373 --> 00:47:10,013
Speaker 2: our own kids, who have who have not fled but

614
00:47:10,253 --> 00:47:11,293
Speaker 2: don't plan to come back.

615
00:47:12,013 --> 00:47:17,533
Speaker 4: M Yeah. That said later on, I still have a

616
00:47:17,693 --> 00:47:23,493
Speaker 4: certain confidence in the so called common man, people who

617
00:47:23,573 --> 00:47:26,733
Speaker 4: know nothing about any of this stuff. But it's the

618
00:47:26,813 --> 00:47:29,933
Speaker 4: old pub test. You know that they know that there's

619
00:47:29,973 --> 00:47:36,493
Speaker 4: something wrong with what's happening and that something needs doing

620
00:47:36,653 --> 00:47:41,813
Speaker 4: about it. And I still think that there is a

621
00:47:41,933 --> 00:47:46,653
Speaker 4: large catchment out there of people who, once they're alerted

622
00:47:46,813 --> 00:47:50,373
Speaker 4: to what's going on, their own sense of common sense

623
00:47:50,493 --> 00:47:55,133
Speaker 4: and fair play will kick in and they will start

624
00:47:55,293 --> 00:48:01,853
Speaker 4: making noises about stopping some of these insidious sort of

625
00:48:01,973 --> 00:48:04,493
Speaker 4: influences that we're subject to. It the moment.

626
00:48:04,773 --> 00:48:08,293
Speaker 2: There is more to your article than we have covered,

627
00:48:08,893 --> 00:48:14,293
Speaker 2: but I want to leave it, yeah, because it to me, Well,

628
00:48:14,373 --> 00:48:17,453
Speaker 2: we'll explain explain where to get it shortly, but I

629
00:48:17,493 --> 00:48:18,973
Speaker 2: want to I just want to cover a couple of

630
00:48:19,053 --> 00:48:24,693
Speaker 2: other things headline the fatal flaw in artificial intelligence. If

631
00:48:24,733 --> 00:48:28,893
Speaker 2: I asked you what it was, you'd give up the answer.

632
00:48:29,053 --> 00:48:31,333
Speaker 2: The answer is it's got a question mark at the

633
00:48:31,373 --> 00:48:34,613
Speaker 2: end of it, climate change. And I want to quote

634
00:48:34,613 --> 00:48:39,213
Speaker 2: you a little of this. AI's role in amplifying dominant

635
00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:44,253
Speaker 2: narratives will continue to stifle dissent, limit open debate, and

636
00:48:44,413 --> 00:48:48,213
Speaker 2: impose restrictive controls on society. If we allow this to

637
00:48:48,333 --> 00:48:52,053
Speaker 2: continue unchecked, AI will become a tool for shaping thought,

638
00:48:52,573 --> 00:48:56,493
Speaker 2: controlling discourse, and eroding the very freedoms it was meant

639
00:48:56,533 --> 00:48:59,293
Speaker 2: to empower. Would you find any fault with that?

640
00:49:00,213 --> 00:49:04,213
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem

641
00:49:04,373 --> 00:49:07,853
Speaker 4: is that people like me anyway, have not the faintest

642
00:49:07,933 --> 00:49:12,933
Speaker 4: idea what I actually is and what it what it

643
00:49:13,053 --> 00:49:21,973
Speaker 4: actually does. Presumably it's where images and words are manufactured

644
00:49:22,693 --> 00:49:28,213
Speaker 4: out of, SAIDA. I don't know, but I'm concerned about it. Yeah,

645
00:49:28,253 --> 00:49:28,773
Speaker 4: I really am.

646
00:49:28,973 --> 00:49:33,133
Speaker 2: Yes, it could be it could be controlled. So your

647
00:49:33,413 --> 00:49:38,373
Speaker 2: article is I think something that should be studied in

648
00:49:38,493 --> 00:49:42,293
Speaker 2: high school. At least I've did serious. It's encompassing to

649
00:49:42,413 --> 00:49:46,453
Speaker 2: the point that it covers everything basically and logically and

650
00:49:47,013 --> 00:49:53,533
Speaker 2: seriously and would cause far greater thought among students than

651
00:49:53,693 --> 00:49:55,133
Speaker 2: anything that they're looking at.

652
00:49:55,253 --> 00:49:55,413
Speaker 3: Now.

653
00:49:56,133 --> 00:49:58,933
Speaker 2: I mean that, I mean that very very sincerely. Now,

654
00:49:59,213 --> 00:50:02,133
Speaker 2: thank you Jeffrey Tucker, who I refer to quite frequently,

655
00:50:03,053 --> 00:50:07,493
Speaker 2: the founder, apart from anything else, the founder of Brownstone Institute,

656
00:50:08,493 --> 00:50:12,293
Speaker 2: which has become a center for information for a lot

657
00:50:12,333 --> 00:50:17,453
Speaker 2: of people. Yes, Jeffrey Tucker wrote something a few days ago,

658
00:50:17,973 --> 00:50:22,333
Speaker 2: and I thought it slotted so beautifully alongside your article

659
00:50:23,133 --> 00:50:27,853
Speaker 2: that I wanted to touch on it. It's headed Globalism

660
00:50:27,973 --> 00:50:31,293
Speaker 2: and freedom do not mix. And I'll quote you a

661
00:50:31,333 --> 00:50:35,573
Speaker 2: little interesting question, why, after many, multiple decades of only

662
00:50:35,693 --> 00:50:39,173
Speaker 2: localized migrant issues, most having to do with border wars

663
00:50:39,293 --> 00:50:43,453
Speaker 2: or other disruptions, have so many nations at once dealt

664
00:50:43,533 --> 00:50:48,453
Speaker 2: with floods of people exploiting broken migration systems. In other words,

665
00:50:48,573 --> 00:50:51,333
Speaker 2: how did a local problem become a global problem so quickly?

666
00:50:51,373 --> 00:50:55,653
Speaker 2: How did all border systems break at once? And then

667
00:50:55,733 --> 00:50:59,293
Speaker 2: goes on and consider the problem before this one, we

668
00:50:59,413 --> 00:51:03,213
Speaker 2: had a globalized response to the COVID crisis in most

669
00:51:03,373 --> 00:51:06,933
Speaker 2: nations of the world. The policy response was eerily similar.

670
00:51:07,453 --> 00:51:12,413
Speaker 2: There was masking, distancing closures, travel restrictions, and capacity limits.

671
00:51:12,453 --> 00:51:16,253
Speaker 2: While big business was allowed to stay open. The same methods,

672
00:51:16,693 --> 00:51:20,533
Speaker 2: which have no modern precedents, were attempted in all countries

673
00:51:20,573 --> 00:51:23,773
Speaker 2: in the world except a few. Now we can relate

674
00:51:23,853 --> 00:51:26,093
Speaker 2: to that. That's only the beginning, but we can relate

675
00:51:26,173 --> 00:51:29,413
Speaker 2: to that in this country as much as anybody else

676
00:51:29,493 --> 00:51:33,773
Speaker 2: can anywhere else on the planet. The question that the

677
00:51:33,853 --> 00:51:37,373
Speaker 2: point that he raises grab my attention specifically because I

678
00:51:37,493 --> 00:51:42,453
Speaker 2: asked this question of at least two interviewees on the

679
00:51:42,533 --> 00:51:50,813
Speaker 2: podcast about the coincidence of the same approaches being taken

680
00:51:51,013 --> 00:51:54,133
Speaker 2: in other countries as well as ours or ours as

681
00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:58,293
Speaker 2: other countries, and what this copying was all about, and

682
00:51:58,493 --> 00:52:01,573
Speaker 2: neither of them was happy to be agreeable with that.

683
00:52:01,813 --> 00:52:03,933
Speaker 2: Just coincidence was the bottom line.

684
00:52:06,053 --> 00:52:08,453
Speaker 4: I don't know about you, but I don't believe in going.

685
00:52:08,413 --> 00:52:13,293
Speaker 2: That it's not of that nature. No, So the Jeffrey

686
00:52:13,373 --> 00:52:19,093
Speaker 2: Tucker article is a clip on to yours. He goes

687
00:52:19,333 --> 00:52:25,013
Speaker 2: on and covers numerous other aspects, specifically the World Health

688
00:52:25,173 --> 00:52:28,733
Speaker 2: Organization and what's going on with that at the moment.

689
00:52:29,013 --> 00:52:33,013
Speaker 2: Specifically with well, maybe i'll quote this. He talks about

690
00:52:33,013 --> 00:52:35,733
Speaker 2: the nation state and I have a book called The

691
00:52:36,413 --> 00:52:40,093
Speaker 2: End of the Nation State, and it was written in

692
00:52:40,413 --> 00:52:44,653
Speaker 2: and published in nineteen ninety five, and it was determined

693
00:52:44,653 --> 00:52:47,253
Speaker 2: that the nation state was over and was about to finish. Well,

694
00:52:47,333 --> 00:52:50,933
Speaker 2: it hasn't, and it would be an interesting discussion to

695
00:52:51,013 --> 00:52:55,213
Speaker 2: have separately about whether or not we are still moving

696
00:52:55,453 --> 00:52:58,533
Speaker 2: of late in that direction, it says, all these years later,

697
00:52:59,213 --> 00:53:02,293
Speaker 2: most people in most nations, the United States especially, believes

698
00:53:02,293 --> 00:53:04,613
Speaker 2: that they should have a final say over the structure

699
00:53:04,653 --> 00:53:08,853
Speaker 2: of the regime. This is the essence of the democrat ideal,

700
00:53:09,613 --> 00:53:11,413
Speaker 2: and not as an end in itself, but as a

701
00:53:11,493 --> 00:53:14,973
Speaker 2: guaranteur of freedom, which is the principle that drives the rest.

702
00:53:15,613 --> 00:53:18,493
Speaker 2: Freedom is inseparable from citizen control of government.

703
00:53:18,733 --> 00:53:23,173
Speaker 4: Would you agree with that absolutely? Will you really can't

704
00:53:23,213 --> 00:53:24,173
Speaker 4: have one without the other.

705
00:53:25,293 --> 00:53:28,893
Speaker 2: When that link and that relationship are shattered, freedom itself

706
00:53:29,053 --> 00:53:32,813
Speaker 2: is gravely damaged. The world today is packed with wealthy

707
00:53:32,893 --> 00:53:37,493
Speaker 2: institutions and individuals who stand and revolt against the ideas

708
00:53:37,573 --> 00:53:40,773
Speaker 2: of freedom and democracy. They do not like the idea

709
00:53:40,853 --> 00:53:46,933
Speaker 2: of geographically constrained states with zones of juridical power. They

710
00:53:47,053 --> 00:53:49,813
Speaker 2: believe that they have a global mission and what to

711
00:53:49,933 --> 00:53:54,333
Speaker 2: empower global institutions against the sovereignty of people living in

712
00:53:54,493 --> 00:53:58,533
Speaker 2: nation states. Now that's all I want to quote. But

713
00:53:58,613 --> 00:54:02,173
Speaker 2: he goes on and covers other things like disease, pandemic threats,

714
00:54:02,253 --> 00:54:09,213
Speaker 2: climate change, etc. As methods of achieving that. Yep, this

715
00:54:09,373 --> 00:54:13,053
Speaker 2: word juridical. Did I pronounce it rightly?

716
00:54:13,693 --> 00:54:14,333
Speaker 4: Absolutely?

717
00:54:14,413 --> 00:54:14,733
Speaker 5: It is?

718
00:54:15,773 --> 00:54:19,453
Speaker 2: But it confused me. It confused me at first. I

719
00:54:19,493 --> 00:54:22,213
Speaker 2: thought someone had made a mistake, a spelling mistake. But

720
00:54:22,653 --> 00:54:25,133
Speaker 2: I hadn't come across it ever. And don't forget I

721
00:54:25,413 --> 00:54:27,253
Speaker 2: did a couple of years of law twice.

722
00:54:30,413 --> 00:54:32,173
Speaker 4: I only did one year twice.

723
00:54:35,573 --> 00:54:37,613
Speaker 2: I think I think that spells itself out.

724
00:54:38,333 --> 00:54:42,493
Speaker 4: It just means things that judges. Well, it's things that

725
00:54:42,573 --> 00:54:44,453
Speaker 4: are decided in a judging way.

726
00:54:44,733 --> 00:54:47,493
Speaker 2: Really, yes, But it's not commonly used, is it.

727
00:54:48,253 --> 00:54:49,973
Speaker 4: No? No, it's too hard to pronounce.

728
00:54:52,013 --> 00:54:57,453
Speaker 2: You got that right. So in wrapping this anything you'd

729
00:54:57,533 --> 00:54:58,173
Speaker 2: like to say.

730
00:54:58,893 --> 00:55:01,653
Speaker 4: Well, we were talking, well, just one thing we were

731
00:55:01,733 --> 00:55:06,733
Speaker 4: talking as an indication of how far down the line

732
00:55:07,373 --> 00:55:13,173
Speaker 4: we got in these anti democratic, anti freedom sort of

733
00:55:13,373 --> 00:55:22,213
Speaker 4: tendencies under the previous governments. And that is David Seymour's referendum,

734
00:55:22,253 --> 00:55:25,933
Speaker 4: which he wants on the Treaty principles. Well, we won't

735
00:55:25,933 --> 00:55:31,053
Speaker 4: go into that, but what he's asking for is that

736
00:55:32,333 --> 00:55:39,093
Speaker 4: the public decide the particular questions that he's raised. Whether

737
00:55:39,093 --> 00:55:41,373
Speaker 4: they're right rise, it doesn't really matter. It's for the

738
00:55:41,533 --> 00:55:48,053
Speaker 4: public to decide. And I was appalled to read Chris Finolasen,

739
00:55:48,533 --> 00:55:53,253
Speaker 4: as a former attorney General, expressing the view that these

740
00:55:53,333 --> 00:55:57,133
Speaker 4: things are far too difficult for the public to have

741
00:55:57,293 --> 00:55:59,853
Speaker 4: any say in and they probably come up with the

742
00:55:59,893 --> 00:56:05,493
Speaker 4: wrong answers. Now, that to me summarized very neatly a

743
00:56:05,573 --> 00:56:11,813
Speaker 4: lot of what we've been talking about in these attacks

744
00:56:12,093 --> 00:56:17,653
Speaker 4: on the on the freedom of expression and the democracy,

745
00:56:19,013 --> 00:56:22,733
Speaker 4: and it just illustrates how far down the track we

746
00:56:23,013 --> 00:56:30,533
Speaker 4: we we came before hopefully the the stop signs went up,

747
00:56:30,853 --> 00:56:32,373
Speaker 4: but I live in Hope.

748
00:56:34,413 --> 00:56:34,853
Speaker 2: Anymore.

749
00:56:35,973 --> 00:56:39,733
Speaker 4: No, that's we could we could talk for hours later, but.

750
00:56:40,733 --> 00:56:42,653
Speaker 2: Well we could talk for ours, but would you want

751
00:56:42,733 --> 00:56:46,893
Speaker 2: to Tony?

752
00:56:47,053 --> 00:56:49,813
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, all right, thanks Laton, good to talk.

753
00:56:49,973 --> 00:56:50,373
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

754
00:57:05,693 --> 00:57:07,373
Speaker 2: This is Producer here. We are in the mail room

755
00:57:07,413 --> 00:57:09,453
Speaker 2: for two hundred and sixty one and haven't seen you

756
00:57:09,493 --> 00:57:12,213
Speaker 2: all day, so it's nice that you put an appearance in.

757
00:57:12,373 --> 00:57:14,253
Speaker 6: I know, actually it's really rather nice to be able

758
00:57:14,413 --> 00:57:17,773
Speaker 6: to get into your studio stroke library now later because

759
00:57:17,853 --> 00:57:21,813
Speaker 6: you've had a lot of building work going on in here,

760
00:57:22,093 --> 00:57:24,013
Speaker 6: and it looks fabulous.

761
00:57:24,213 --> 00:57:26,613
Speaker 2: I actually wasn't going to mention it, because once I start,

762
00:57:26,853 --> 00:57:28,253
Speaker 2: I can't stop your.

763
00:57:28,693 --> 00:57:32,093
Speaker 6: Library, your shelves, your new library coming together.

764
00:57:33,013 --> 00:57:37,413
Speaker 2: I was introduced to a cabinet maker, cabinet maker who

765
00:57:38,133 --> 00:57:40,453
Speaker 2: was a friend of a friend, and he came over

766
00:57:40,533 --> 00:57:42,453
Speaker 2: and had to look at my wall and said, I

767
00:57:42,533 --> 00:57:45,813
Speaker 2: can do that easily. I told him what I'd wanted.

768
00:57:45,973 --> 00:57:49,453
Speaker 2: I can do that easily. And it wasn't easy to

769
00:57:49,493 --> 00:57:51,013
Speaker 2: wait for because I talking about five weeks.

770
00:57:51,253 --> 00:57:52,413
Speaker 6: All good things take time.

771
00:57:52,893 --> 00:57:55,893
Speaker 2: Well, the point being you you made mention of the

772
00:57:55,973 --> 00:58:00,293
Speaker 2: fact that you aren't you pleased it's taking time, because

773
00:58:00,373 --> 00:58:03,093
Speaker 2: if he could do it the next day, maybe he

774
00:58:03,093 --> 00:58:07,133
Speaker 2: wouldn't be so good. Words to that effect. But some

775
00:58:07,253 --> 00:58:09,573
Speaker 2: of you, some of your logic that was actually.

776
00:58:09,773 --> 00:58:10,653
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.

777
00:58:11,453 --> 00:58:13,973
Speaker 6: I bet you were. She'd done it ages ago now,

778
00:58:14,133 --> 00:58:18,733
Speaker 6: But unfortunately you have twice as many books as as

779
00:58:18,813 --> 00:58:22,613
Speaker 6: you have space for. But it now means that you'll

780
00:58:22,693 --> 00:58:26,613
Speaker 6: be shoehorned out of this room of food once a day.

781
00:58:26,973 --> 00:58:28,013
Speaker 4: I guess you're just.

782
00:58:28,093 --> 00:58:31,573
Speaker 2: Living here anyway. It's a magnificent job. Takes up a

783
00:58:31,613 --> 00:58:34,093
Speaker 2: whole wall floor to siling wall, to wall. Let me

784
00:58:34,173 --> 00:58:36,493
Speaker 2: put it this way. I worked out by filling up

785
00:58:36,573 --> 00:58:40,053
Speaker 2: one bay of twenty eight with books that I took

786
00:58:40,133 --> 00:58:43,773
Speaker 2: to be an average, and it took twenty eight books. No,

787
00:58:43,853 --> 00:58:46,333
Speaker 2: it took twenty six books, and there's twenty eight days

788
00:58:46,733 --> 00:58:47,333
Speaker 2: work that out?

789
00:58:47,893 --> 00:58:48,933
Speaker 6: What are you going to do with the rest of

790
00:58:48,973 --> 00:58:49,413
Speaker 6: the books?

791
00:58:51,253 --> 00:58:53,213
Speaker 2: Go on, match, wait and see.

792
00:58:54,013 --> 00:58:57,093
Speaker 6: So why don't you let me start so later? Noel

793
00:58:57,253 --> 00:59:01,333
Speaker 6: says Roger Partridge was great. As I recall, it was

794
00:59:01,373 --> 00:59:03,853
Speaker 6: Helen Clark who decided to set up the Supreme Court

795
00:59:04,013 --> 00:59:06,573
Speaker 6: as an alternative to the Privy Council in the UK.

796
00:59:07,453 --> 00:59:09,933
Speaker 6: At the time it seemed to make sense. Having to

797
00:59:10,053 --> 00:59:13,413
Speaker 6: travel halfway across the world to get ultimate justice seemed

798
00:59:13,533 --> 00:59:22,813
Speaker 6: unnecessarily expensive. But that has But has that major cost

799
00:59:23,093 --> 00:59:26,653
Speaker 6: now been passed on to taxpayers? Does anyone know how

800
00:59:26,733 --> 00:59:29,333
Speaker 6: much it costs to run the Supreme Court with their

801
00:59:29,493 --> 00:59:33,173
Speaker 6: near palatial headquarters in Wellington. One of the benefits of

802
00:59:33,213 --> 00:59:37,093
Speaker 6: the Prevy Council was an objective judgment removed from local

803
00:59:37,213 --> 00:59:41,533
Speaker 6: bias and flavor of the month local issues. Might we

804
00:59:41,693 --> 00:59:44,973
Speaker 6: get almost as much separation by canning the Supreme Court

805
00:59:45,093 --> 00:59:49,493
Speaker 6: and using Australia's highest court instead, and I'm looking forward

806
00:59:49,533 --> 00:59:51,653
Speaker 6: to two six ' one. It blows me away that

807
00:59:51,773 --> 00:59:55,653
Speaker 6: everyone didn't learn about photosynthesis at school and how CO

808
00:59:55,973 --> 00:59:59,573
Speaker 6: two is essential for that process and ultimately for the

809
00:59:59,693 --> 01:00:01,573
Speaker 6: existence of life on our planet.

810
01:00:02,293 --> 01:00:06,493
Speaker 2: Why okay, so, why by the connection between two six

811
01:00:06,653 --> 01:00:09,653
Speaker 2: one and photosynth? Was I going to do something this

812
01:00:09,813 --> 01:00:14,893
Speaker 2: week that I haven't done? Brain fade could be? Recently,

813
01:00:15,253 --> 01:00:20,813
Speaker 2: Solicitor General Uni Yougo seek KC released her prosecution guidelines

814
01:00:21,053 --> 01:00:25,693
Speaker 2: which instructed prosecutors to treat Mari criminals and victims differently

815
01:00:25,813 --> 01:00:29,333
Speaker 2: from those of non married descent. Imagine this from a

816
01:00:29,493 --> 01:00:34,253
Speaker 2: King's council. This racist law would have taken effect on

817
01:00:34,373 --> 01:00:36,893
Speaker 2: first January twenty twenty five if it wasn't for the

818
01:00:37,093 --> 01:00:41,013
Speaker 2: Hobson's Pledge. Great work in publicizing the heck out of

819
01:00:41,053 --> 01:00:46,373
Speaker 2: our judicial system's ideologically possession. Your podcast with Roger Partridge

820
01:00:46,533 --> 01:00:50,493
Speaker 2: was a very timely reminder of the voracious appetite of

821
01:00:50,573 --> 01:00:54,733
Speaker 2: New Zealand activist judges to overreach. The New Zealand legal

822
01:00:54,813 --> 01:00:59,093
Speaker 2: system is a putrid swamp of predatory activist judges. Judge

823
01:00:59,133 --> 01:01:03,093
Speaker 2: Anthony Willy echoed Roger's sentiments in his fantastic piece on

824
01:01:03,453 --> 01:01:07,533
Speaker 2: enzcpr entitled Blowing in the Wind, where he warned of

825
01:01:07,613 --> 01:01:12,333
Speaker 2: the increasing sun substitution of socialist values for social norms

826
01:01:12,893 --> 01:01:15,693
Speaker 2: that we have taken for granted. He provided a long

827
01:01:15,773 --> 01:01:19,573
Speaker 2: list of sins of the previous Labour government's ambitions, one

828
01:01:19,653 --> 01:01:23,933
Speaker 2: of which included the destabilization of the New Zealand legal system.

829
01:01:24,333 --> 01:01:29,413
Speaker 2: They did this by quote introducing concepts utterly incompatible to

830
01:01:29,533 --> 01:01:33,373
Speaker 2: that system, such as the tribal cultural values, and seeking

831
01:01:33,453 --> 01:01:36,453
Speaker 2: to elevate those values to the status of law. If

832
01:01:36,453 --> 01:01:39,373
Speaker 2: allowed to continue, this will result in the common law

833
01:01:39,573 --> 01:01:43,173
Speaker 2: no longer being certain, knowable in advance, and applicable to

834
01:01:43,293 --> 01:01:46,453
Speaker 2: all Equally. It will lead to the judges departing from

835
01:01:46,573 --> 01:01:50,613
Speaker 2: their traditional role of interpreting and applying the law, add

836
01:01:50,693 --> 01:01:54,893
Speaker 2: instead deciding cases according to their personal beliefs and proclivities.

837
01:01:55,493 --> 01:01:58,973
Speaker 2: I agree with Roger Partridge. The government needs to execute

838
01:01:59,173 --> 01:02:04,493
Speaker 2: legislative intervention and stop judges like Una Yugosi KC before

839
01:02:04,613 --> 01:02:07,733
Speaker 2: it's too late. Meanwhile, to sendra a dirn is.

840
01:02:07,893 --> 01:02:12,773
Speaker 6: Dame Layden Hogi says, I have been a fan of

841
01:02:12,853 --> 01:02:16,013
Speaker 6: yours through your one ZB years, listen to all your

842
01:02:16,093 --> 01:02:20,293
Speaker 6: podcasts on my daily walks and remain eternally grateful for

843
01:02:20,373 --> 01:02:23,493
Speaker 6: your voice of reason. I'm a seventy nine year old

844
01:02:23,733 --> 01:02:26,613
Speaker 6: expat from the USA, having resided in New Zealand for

845
01:02:26,653 --> 01:02:29,853
Speaker 6: the past fifty two years. I spent five years in

846
01:02:29,933 --> 01:02:33,093
Speaker 6: the US Navy as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam

847
01:02:33,213 --> 01:02:36,253
Speaker 6: War era, having made two eight month cruises in the

848
01:02:36,293 --> 01:02:41,333
Speaker 6: Gulf of Tonkin aboard the USS Constellation and the USS Enterprise.

849
01:02:41,813 --> 01:02:44,933
Speaker 6: Our mission was to be on hand angel duty it's

850
01:02:45,053 --> 01:02:49,013
Speaker 6: called in case of man overboard or plane crash, etc.

851
01:02:49,373 --> 01:02:52,613
Speaker 6: So never had to face any actual combat. Anyway. I

852
01:02:52,653 --> 01:02:55,373
Speaker 6: grew up believing that America stood for all things good,

853
01:02:55,733 --> 01:03:02,293
Speaker 6: just and true, etc. Not so much now. And that's

854
01:03:02,333 --> 01:03:02,893
Speaker 6: from HOGI.

855
01:03:03,853 --> 01:03:04,853
Speaker 2: Can I just have a look at that?

856
01:03:05,013 --> 01:03:05,253
Speaker 4: Please?

857
01:03:06,173 --> 01:03:13,013
Speaker 2: Thank you, Hogi. I don't recall you ever writing before.

858
01:03:13,933 --> 01:03:15,733
Speaker 2: You've been here for seventy nine now you've been here

859
01:03:15,773 --> 01:03:18,413
Speaker 2: for past fifty two years. Where have you been?

860
01:03:18,893 --> 01:03:19,453
Speaker 4: I've missed you.

861
01:03:21,133 --> 01:03:28,533
Speaker 2: Now from Robin except for copying now from Robin your

862
01:03:28,933 --> 01:03:33,773
Speaker 2: last letter this week. That means in two sixty that

863
01:03:33,933 --> 01:03:36,573
Speaker 2: was the long one that I read when you departed,

864
01:03:36,613 --> 01:03:41,413
Speaker 2: missus producer. Except for copying the except for copying the

865
01:03:41,493 --> 01:03:46,693
Speaker 2: COVID pass. His experience is a duplicate of ours, and

866
01:03:46,773 --> 01:03:50,453
Speaker 2: please put all your phones on silent. Sadly, though family

867
01:03:50,573 --> 01:03:53,853
Speaker 2: had a different view from their parents in their seventies,

868
01:03:54,733 --> 01:03:57,213
Speaker 2: we too had our medical supplies stopped at the border.

869
01:03:58,093 --> 01:04:01,413
Speaker 2: I keep hoping the rules will be relaxed. Keep up

870
01:04:01,453 --> 01:04:05,173
Speaker 2: the good work, Robin. I'd love to know how many

871
01:04:05,213 --> 01:04:07,893
Speaker 2: people actually follow that, and then how many how many

872
01:04:07,973 --> 01:04:11,813
Speaker 2: did get stuff nicked at the border, and are they

873
01:04:11,893 --> 01:04:15,493
Speaker 2: due compensation in the light of the present.

874
01:04:15,253 --> 01:04:20,413
Speaker 6: Knowledge, Laden Allison says I another great podcast. I wish

875
01:04:20,573 --> 01:04:23,733
Speaker 6: we could hear more from the experiences of mister long letter,

876
01:04:24,253 --> 01:04:27,533
Speaker 6: especially how step by step he got his exemption. I

877
01:04:27,653 --> 01:04:32,213
Speaker 6: am on his side. The foolishness and culpable ignorance of

878
01:04:32,293 --> 01:04:36,653
Speaker 6: those days deserved not to be respected. And think, she says,

879
01:04:36,733 --> 01:04:39,013
Speaker 6: thank you so much, Allison, thank you?

880
01:04:39,613 --> 01:04:45,653
Speaker 2: Yes indeed, now finally from Brett neo racists, does such

881
01:04:45,693 --> 01:04:48,933
Speaker 2: a word encapsulate the New Zealand situation or fall short?

882
01:04:49,853 --> 01:04:53,133
Speaker 2: Race needs to be removed period. At the end of

883
01:04:53,173 --> 01:04:57,293
Speaker 2: the day, we are just people. It is not complicated.

884
01:04:57,853 --> 01:05:02,173
Speaker 2: Have a great day, warm regards Brett. Now is that

885
01:05:02,293 --> 01:05:05,133
Speaker 2: as a cover note to send me an article by

886
01:05:05,693 --> 01:05:10,813
Speaker 2: Graham Reeves. Graham reeves the Treaty Principle's Bill or the

887
01:05:10,933 --> 01:05:16,453
Speaker 2: Constitutional Principle's Bill or neither two and a half pages.

888
01:05:17,173 --> 01:05:21,413
Speaker 2: Graham is a lawyer and the former National MP. So

889
01:05:22,333 --> 01:05:23,853
Speaker 2: I'll do the same thing as I did last week

890
01:05:23,893 --> 01:05:27,693
Speaker 2: and not hold you up because I know you've sorry. Later,

891
01:05:27,853 --> 01:05:29,293
Speaker 2: You've got people pending.

892
01:05:29,813 --> 01:05:30,733
Speaker 6: Isn't that terrible?

893
01:05:31,013 --> 01:05:31,213
Speaker 1: You know?

894
01:05:31,293 --> 01:05:35,973
Speaker 6: The jolly phones get in every every every area of

895
01:05:36,053 --> 01:05:37,453
Speaker 6: your life, every nook and creny.

896
01:05:37,813 --> 01:05:41,613
Speaker 2: They just anyway, I'll let you depart and I'll knock

897
01:05:41,653 --> 01:05:45,853
Speaker 2: this off. Thanks later, my pleasure. So to repeat Graham

898
01:05:45,933 --> 01:05:49,973
Speaker 2: reeves the Treaty Principle's Bill or the Constitutional Principle's Bill

899
01:05:50,533 --> 01:05:55,413
Speaker 2: or neither begins. In his blog of fourteen October twenty

900
01:05:55,493 --> 01:05:59,893
Speaker 2: twenty four, Professor Robert mccalluch in, discussing the Treaty Principle's Bill,

901
01:06:00,013 --> 01:06:04,173
Speaker 2: suggested that the bill be rename the Constitutional Principle's Bill.

902
01:06:05,013 --> 01:06:08,333
Speaker 2: He suggested that it should map out the fundamental value

903
01:06:08,333 --> 01:06:13,173
Speaker 2: all kiwis hold deer, avoiding the futile treaty interpretation and

904
01:06:13,693 --> 01:06:17,253
Speaker 2: mind reading game. If only it were that simple. New

905
01:06:17,333 --> 01:06:20,693
Speaker 2: Zealand already has a well developed set of constitutional principles

906
01:06:21,213 --> 01:06:24,733
Speaker 2: which have been formulated over a period of about nine

907
01:06:24,853 --> 01:06:27,853
Speaker 2: hundred years, starting with the Magnaicata in twelve fifteen, the

908
01:06:27,933 --> 01:06:30,733
Speaker 2: Bill of Rights Act in sixteen eighty eight, the New

909
01:06:30,853 --> 01:06:34,173
Speaker 2: Zealand Constitution Act eighteen fifty two, the Bill of Rights

910
01:06:34,213 --> 01:06:37,813
Speaker 2: Act nineteen ninety and the Human Rights Act nineteen ninety three,

911
01:06:38,413 --> 01:06:41,333
Speaker 2: all of which have contributed to New Zealand being the

912
01:06:41,533 --> 01:06:45,333
Speaker 2: oldest continuous successful democracy in the world. Put simply, the

913
01:06:45,373 --> 01:06:49,293
Speaker 2: combination of the above enactments established the three pillars of

914
01:06:49,373 --> 01:06:54,653
Speaker 2: a democratic system of governance. Firstly, the disbursement of power

915
01:06:54,813 --> 01:06:59,413
Speaker 2: from an authoritarian head of state, including the separation of

916
01:06:59,493 --> 01:07:02,853
Speaker 2: the church from the state that is, a secular society

917
01:07:03,173 --> 01:07:06,693
Speaker 2: and not a sectarian society, to the elected representatives of

918
01:07:06,853 --> 01:07:10,973
Speaker 2: the people. Second, the establishment of the rule of law,

919
01:07:11,253 --> 01:07:15,453
Speaker 2: including both the civil law and the Criminal's Code, and

920
01:07:15,613 --> 01:07:19,533
Speaker 2: most importantly, the creation of protection of private property rights,

921
01:07:19,773 --> 01:07:23,573
Speaker 2: which provides a foundation for a capitalist economy. And thirdly,

922
01:07:24,093 --> 01:07:28,493
Speaker 2: the equality of all citizens under the law. Under this system,

923
01:07:28,933 --> 01:07:32,733
Speaker 2: parliament is the supreme law making agency, receiving its mandate

924
01:07:32,813 --> 01:07:36,693
Speaker 2: from the people in free and fair general elections. What

925
01:07:36,853 --> 01:07:39,613
Speaker 2: has muddy the waters was not the signing of a

926
01:07:39,693 --> 01:07:43,213
Speaker 2: very simple Treaty of Waitangi document in eighteen forty, but

927
01:07:43,533 --> 01:07:48,333
Speaker 2: the subsequent introduction into New Zealand legislation of references to

928
01:07:48,453 --> 01:07:52,133
Speaker 2: the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles since the passing

929
01:07:52,173 --> 01:07:56,053
Speaker 2: of the Waitangi Tribunal Act nineteen seventy five, and the tortured,

930
01:07:56,493 --> 01:08:01,093
Speaker 2: the tortured attempts to articulate the principles of that very

931
01:08:01,493 --> 01:08:06,333
Speaker 2: simple document. The situation was further exacerbated in nineteen eighty

932
01:08:06,413 --> 01:08:09,093
Speaker 2: six by the Land's Case, which he arose from a

933
01:08:09,293 --> 01:08:13,773
Speaker 2: provision in the State Owned Enterprises Act of nineteen eighty

934
01:08:13,853 --> 01:08:18,253
Speaker 2: six which required the Crown to register memorials against titles

935
01:08:18,653 --> 01:08:21,933
Speaker 2: owned by the Crown being transferred to the new SOE

936
01:08:22,333 --> 01:08:28,053
Speaker 2: entities to protect those assets for future treaty settlements. Somewhat Ambitiously,

937
01:08:28,813 --> 01:08:31,813
Speaker 2: Justice Robin Cook took it upon himself to indulge in

938
01:08:32,173 --> 01:08:36,173
Speaker 2: some obit dicta reflecting his views on the meaning of

939
01:08:36,213 --> 01:08:40,613
Speaker 2: the treaty principles. However misguided he may have been, he

940
01:08:40,733 --> 01:08:44,013
Speaker 2: did not for one moment suggest in the landscase and

941
01:08:44,213 --> 01:08:48,013
Speaker 2: in the subsequent Cold Case, and in his extra judicial

942
01:08:48,293 --> 01:08:52,133
Speaker 2: musings in Roderua in nineteen ninety that the treaty or

943
01:08:52,213 --> 01:08:56,293
Speaker 2: its principles created an equal partnership between MARI and Crown.

944
01:08:56,653 --> 01:08:59,093
Speaker 2: He made it clear that the right to govern remained

945
01:08:59,253 --> 01:09:02,013
Speaker 2: firmly with the elected part of it of New Zealand.

946
01:09:02,373 --> 01:09:04,853
Speaker 2: A more recent and interesting development took place on the

947
01:09:04,893 --> 01:09:09,013
Speaker 2: morning of fifteen October on talkback z B the Prime

948
01:09:09,093 --> 01:09:12,493
Speaker 2: Minister of New Zealand, when referring to the Solicitor General's

949
01:09:12,533 --> 01:09:15,933
Speaker 2: guidelines for prosecutors in which mary were to be given

950
01:09:16,013 --> 01:09:20,373
Speaker 2: preferential treatment to avoid convictions under the Criminal Code, stated

951
01:09:20,413 --> 01:09:24,693
Speaker 2: that the law should be color blind. Color blindness is

952
01:09:24,813 --> 01:09:29,853
Speaker 2: consistent with the constitutional framework referred to above. Color Blindness

953
01:09:30,093 --> 01:09:33,253
Speaker 2: is the theme of the recently published Colman Hughes book

954
01:09:34,053 --> 01:09:38,533
Speaker 2: The End of Race Politics, Arguments for a Colored America.

955
01:09:39,053 --> 01:09:42,493
Speaker 2: Hughes coins a new category of actors in the racial narrative,

956
01:09:43,013 --> 01:09:47,053
Speaker 2: the neo racist, to be distinguished from the anti racist.

957
01:09:47,533 --> 01:09:50,653
Speaker 2: He writes that the neo racism narrative demands that we

958
01:09:50,893 --> 01:09:55,173
Speaker 2: implement policies that rebalance the way that resources are distributed.

959
01:09:55,213 --> 01:09:58,933
Speaker 2: Wherever possible, we need to give people of color preferential treatment.

960
01:09:59,453 --> 01:10:01,853
Speaker 2: This is the only way for our society to move

961
01:10:02,013 --> 01:10:07,293
Speaker 2: beyond its checkered racial past and to defeat white supremacy. Hughes'

962
01:10:07,453 --> 01:10:11,533
Speaker 2: response to what he calls this seductive narrative is as follows.

963
01:10:12,413 --> 01:10:16,373
Speaker 2: It depends on several harmful myths and fallacies, including the

964
01:10:16,453 --> 01:10:19,813
Speaker 2: disparity fallacy, the myth of undoing the past, and the

965
01:10:19,933 --> 01:10:25,573
Speaker 2: racial ad hominin, which is the most pernicious in that

966
01:10:26,693 --> 01:10:29,973
Speaker 2: it states that you can dismiss any claims about race

967
01:10:30,013 --> 01:10:34,173
Speaker 2: and racism that white people make simply because they're white.

968
01:10:35,093 --> 01:10:39,013
Speaker 2: He asserts that neo racists don't want racial peace, but

969
01:10:39,213 --> 01:10:43,133
Speaker 2: endless ideological war. When we see neo racism for what

970
01:10:43,253 --> 01:10:47,373
Speaker 2: it is, racism in anti racist clothing, we see why

971
01:10:47,693 --> 01:10:52,253
Speaker 2: neo racists fail to support colorblind policies that would eliminate racism,

972
01:10:53,093 --> 01:10:57,253
Speaker 2: and why they reject the colorblind principles that motivated the

973
01:10:57,293 --> 01:11:01,933
Speaker 2: civil rights movement. While New Zealand's journey is different to

974
01:11:02,053 --> 01:11:05,773
Speaker 2: the American journey, I contend, writes the author that we

975
01:11:05,853 --> 01:11:09,053
Speaker 2: can see the behaviors referred to by Hughes exhibited by

976
01:11:09,093 --> 01:11:12,253
Speaker 2: the Waitangi Tribunal and the Mari and other activists who

977
01:11:12,293 --> 01:11:16,733
Speaker 2: have vested interests in keeping the racist narrative alive. They

978
01:11:17,053 --> 01:11:21,333
Speaker 2: are the neo racists. The question is, then, how we

979
01:11:21,653 --> 01:11:25,093
Speaker 2: as a nation move forward as a united country where

980
01:11:25,213 --> 01:11:28,893
Speaker 2: rights and obligations are not determined by race but by citizenship,

981
01:11:29,373 --> 01:11:32,973
Speaker 2: and in accordance with our constitutional heritage, where all of

982
01:11:33,093 --> 01:11:36,893
Speaker 2: the rights and obligations afforded us as citizens of a free,

983
01:11:36,973 --> 01:11:42,653
Speaker 2: democratic society as referred to above, are not adulterated by

984
01:11:42,733 --> 01:11:47,293
Speaker 2: the neo racist agenda. Is it a concise statement of

985
01:11:47,413 --> 01:11:50,573
Speaker 2: the principles of the treaty principles or is it simply

986
01:11:50,693 --> 01:11:54,413
Speaker 2: that Parliament legislates the removal of all reference to the

987
01:11:54,493 --> 01:11:58,493
Speaker 2: Treaty and its principles to firmly establish that all of

988
01:11:58,613 --> 01:12:01,813
Speaker 2: the citizens of this country are equal under the law.

989
01:12:02,173 --> 01:12:06,093
Speaker 2: If we don't and continue to try to solve socioeconomic

990
01:12:06,213 --> 01:12:11,133
Speaker 2: disparities purely on race, not need, then we are, in

991
01:12:11,293 --> 01:12:15,053
Speaker 2: my opinion, on a slippery slope. Well, there's a few

992
01:12:15,053 --> 01:12:17,293
Speaker 2: people that filled there's more than one slippery slope around

993
01:12:17,333 --> 01:12:20,573
Speaker 2: at the moment. But from Graham Reeves, lawyer and former

994
01:12:20,613 --> 01:12:25,413
Speaker 2: National MP, that is an opinion worth considering. Quite frankly,

995
01:12:25,453 --> 01:12:28,293
Speaker 2: I think a second hearing might be worthwhile. Winded back,

996
01:12:35,053 --> 01:12:38,693
Speaker 2: Layton Smith now. Finally, in the mail room, I suggested

997
01:12:38,813 --> 01:12:41,773
Speaker 2: that Hogy, the American New Zealander who'd lived here for

998
01:12:42,013 --> 01:12:45,773
Speaker 2: over fifty years, had not written before. I was wrong.

999
01:12:46,493 --> 01:12:49,453
Speaker 2: I discovered by doing a dig that once before. He

1000
01:12:49,573 --> 01:12:51,893
Speaker 2: sent me a three minute video. I think it was

1001
01:12:51,933 --> 01:12:54,173
Speaker 2: earlier this year, and I've got to play it. It

1002
01:12:54,293 --> 01:12:57,693
Speaker 2: explains the difference between the US and New Zealand, the

1003
01:12:57,733 --> 01:13:02,213
Speaker 2: difference between a constitutional republic and a democracy. And this

1004
01:13:02,293 --> 01:13:05,093
Speaker 2: is a byproduct why I think so highly of the

1005
01:13:05,253 --> 01:13:10,053
Speaker 2: US Constitution. HOGI appreciate it, thank you, and here it is.

1006
01:13:10,773 --> 01:13:13,773
Speaker 5: A democracy is a political system in which the people, periodically,

1007
01:13:13,853 --> 01:13:16,213
Speaker 5: by a majority vote at the polls, select their rulers.

1008
01:13:16,773 --> 01:13:19,893
Speaker 5: The rulers then have absolute power to make whatever laws

1009
01:13:19,933 --> 01:13:23,213
Speaker 5: they please by a majority vote among themselves. In a

1010
01:13:23,293 --> 01:13:26,213
Speaker 5: constitutional republic, the people, also by a majority vote at

1011
01:13:26,213 --> 01:13:28,933
Speaker 5: the polls, select rulers who make laws by a majority

1012
01:13:29,013 --> 01:13:32,213
Speaker 5: vote among themselves. But the rulers cannot make any laws

1013
01:13:32,253 --> 01:13:35,973
Speaker 5: they please because the constitutions severely restricts their law making power.

1014
01:13:37,453 --> 01:13:41,293
Speaker 5: The ideal of a democracy is universal equality. The ideal

1015
01:13:41,333 --> 01:13:45,653
Speaker 5: of a constitutional republic is individual liberty. In this century,

1016
01:13:45,693 --> 01:13:48,293
Speaker 5: great strides have been made toward the goal of subverting

1017
01:13:48,373 --> 01:13:52,333
Speaker 5: our republic and transforming it into a democracy. The foremost

1018
01:13:52,413 --> 01:13:56,613
Speaker 5: tactic of the subverters is subversion of language. By calling

1019
01:13:56,733 --> 01:14:00,333
Speaker 5: America a democracy until people thoughtlessly accept and use the

1020
01:14:00,493 --> 01:14:05,693
Speaker 5: term totalitarians have obscured the real meaning of American principles

1021
01:14:05,693 --> 01:14:09,053
Speaker 5: of government. Writers of the Constitution were anxious to safeguard

1022
01:14:09,173 --> 01:14:13,773
Speaker 5: liberty against dictatorship monarchy they called it, but their chief

1023
01:14:13,933 --> 01:14:18,773
Speaker 5: anxiety was to protect the country against democracy. Edmund Randall,

1024
01:14:18,893 --> 01:14:22,653
Speaker 5: delegate to the Constitutional Convention from Virginia, said the general

1025
01:14:22,733 --> 01:14:25,293
Speaker 5: object that the Convention was to provide a cure for

1026
01:14:25,413 --> 01:14:30,133
Speaker 5: the follies and fury of democracy. Elbridge Gary and Roger Sherman,

1027
01:14:30,213 --> 01:14:33,973
Speaker 5: delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Constitutional Convention to

1028
01:14:34,013 --> 01:14:36,933
Speaker 5: create a system to eliminate the evils that flow from

1029
01:14:36,973 --> 01:14:41,493
Speaker 5: the excess of democracy. Alexander Hamilton, delegate from New York, said,

1030
01:14:41,813 --> 01:14:44,813
Speaker 5: we are now forming a republican government. Real liberty is

1031
01:14:44,893 --> 01:14:48,133
Speaker 5: not found in democracy. If we incline too much to democracy,

1032
01:14:48,533 --> 01:14:52,613
Speaker 5: we shall soon shoot into a monarchy. John Adams, one

1033
01:14:52,653 --> 01:14:56,613
Speaker 5: of the giants of the American Revolutionary period, said democracy

1034
01:14:56,653 --> 01:15:00,173
Speaker 5: will end. They all contend with all endeavor to pull

1035
01:15:00,293 --> 01:15:03,533
Speaker 5: down all, and when, by chance it happens to get

1036
01:15:03,613 --> 01:15:07,853
Speaker 5: the upper hand for a short time, democracy will be revengeful, bloody,

1037
01:15:07,933 --> 01:15:11,773
Speaker 5: and cruel. America was founded not as a democracy, but

1038
01:15:11,893 --> 01:15:15,653
Speaker 5: as a constitutional republic. We pledge allegiance to the republic

1039
01:15:15,853 --> 01:15:18,773
Speaker 5: by which our flag stands, not to a democracy. The

1040
01:15:18,853 --> 01:15:22,213
Speaker 5: Constitution requires a republican farm of government for all states,

1041
01:15:22,493 --> 01:15:25,133
Speaker 5: but does not mention democracy, and neither does the Declaration

1042
01:15:25,173 --> 01:15:28,213
Speaker 5: of Independence or the Bill of Rights. Foeman ask him

1043
01:15:28,253 --> 01:15:31,853
Speaker 5: what kind of government the Convention had given America, and

1044
01:15:31,973 --> 01:15:33,373
Speaker 5: Franklin replied.

1045
01:15:33,173 --> 01:15:35,013
Speaker 2: A republic, if you can keep it.

1046
01:15:36,453 --> 01:15:39,373
Speaker 5: Very old and very wise. Franklin saw through the mists

1047
01:15:39,453 --> 01:15:42,533
Speaker 5: of time to the day when Americans might trade their

1048
01:15:42,613 --> 01:15:46,453
Speaker 5: freedom in a constitutional republic for the promise of government

1049
01:15:46,533 --> 01:15:50,853
Speaker 5: guaranteed equality and security in a democracy, and beyond that,

1050
01:15:51,733 --> 01:15:56,933
Speaker 5: to the day when democracy inevitably degenerates into dictatorship, guaranteeing

1051
01:15:57,053 --> 01:16:00,413
Speaker 5: nothing but poverty and serfdom for the people that robs

1052
01:16:00,453 --> 01:16:00,973
Speaker 5: and rules.

1053
01:16:09,453 --> 01:16:10,893
Speaker 2: Now, if you like me, you'll have to play that

1054
01:16:11,013 --> 01:16:14,173
Speaker 2: back once or twice to get the full gist of it.

1055
01:16:14,653 --> 01:16:18,613
Speaker 2: I did, and I'll probably do it again. But that

1056
01:16:18,773 --> 01:16:21,293
Speaker 2: will take us out for podcasts number two hundred and

1057
01:16:21,533 --> 01:16:24,933
Speaker 2: sixty one next week. There is another aspect of the

1058
01:16:25,293 --> 01:16:28,293
Speaker 2: US Constitution that I think is very important before we

1059
01:16:28,773 --> 01:16:31,653
Speaker 2: before we get to it in a fortnight's time. If

1060
01:16:31,693 --> 01:16:33,933
Speaker 2: you would like to correspond on any matter of it,

1061
01:16:34,053 --> 01:16:37,453
Speaker 2: all doesn't matter, Latent at newstalks ab dot co dot

1062
01:16:37,573 --> 01:16:40,973
Speaker 2: nz or Carolyn at newstalks ab dot co dot nz.

1063
01:16:42,053 --> 01:16:45,693
Speaker 2: We shall be back with podcasts two hundred and sixty

1064
01:16:45,813 --> 01:16:49,653
Speaker 2: two in a few days. Until then, as always, thank

1065
01:16:49,693 --> 01:16:51,813
Speaker 2: you for listening and we shall talk soon.

1066
01:16:59,573 --> 01:17:03,533
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks B Listen live

1067
01:17:03,733 --> 01:17:06,413
Speaker 1: on air or online, and keep our shows with you

1068
01:17:06,533 --> 01:17:09,493
Speaker 1: wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio