1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. On the 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: twenty ninth of January twenty nineteen, three year old Gore 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: toddler Lockey Jones was found dead in an oxidation pond 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: a little over a kilometer away from his mother's home. 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: Two police investigations concluded Lockey drowned, but his father, Paul Jones, 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: does not accept these findings and believes he was murdered. 9 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: Ahead of the second phase of a coronial inquest into 10 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: Locke's death, his mother, Michelle Officer, has spoken for the 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: first time to The Herald's Ben tom Set about her 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: side of the story. Today on the Front Page, Ben 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: tom Set joins us to digest asked that interview and 14 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: how this case has evolved. 15 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: Ben, can we start with the. 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: Established facts of that night and twenty nineteen. What have 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: police concluded happened to Locke Jones? 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: So, two police investigations have found that Lockie Jones died 19 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: by drowning in the Council oxidation pond and Gore on 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 3: that night. Police have concluded that Locke did walk to 21 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: the pond. His body was found one point two kilometers 22 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 3: from his home, which is walking distance from his mother's home. 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: His body was discovered face up underwater in the oxidation 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: pond by a police dog handler. He was unable to 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: be revived when he was pulled from the water, and 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: the subsequent investigation year found that Lockie had drowned. They 27 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: followed it up with another investigation ruling the same conclusion. 28 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 4: The toddler was found dead in a council oxidation pond 29 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 4: five years ago, about a kilometer from his school home. 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 4: The general pathologist to conducted the little boy's autopsy since 31 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 4: he was told it wasn't a suspicious death, so conducted 32 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: a general autopsy and didn't look for signs of foul play. 33 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: So Paul Jones, his father, has vocally disputed this version 34 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: of events, right to the point that you noted in 35 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 2: one article he was the driving force behind this inquest 36 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: we're talking about today. 37 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: What is he argued. 38 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: So Paul has long disputed the two police investigations, and 39 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: he's been arguing that his son was murdered. During the inquest, 40 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: allegations were flat out leveled at the mother of Lockie Jones, 41 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: Paul's expartner and Michelle's other sons, and basically Paul believes 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 3: that either Lockie's mother or his brothers somehow had a 43 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: role to play in his death. 44 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: How older is brothers at the time? 45 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: Johnny Officer who was living with Michelle and Lockey at 46 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: the time, he was sixteen years old. He's now twenty one, 47 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: and Cameron he was nineteen at the time. 48 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: You were at the first stage of the coronial inquest 49 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: earlier this year for the Herald. 50 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: What is the purpose of this inquest? 51 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 3: The purpose of the inquest is to establish the facts 52 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 3: and the timeline leading up to Locke's death and how 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: exactly he died. So now basically just trying to establish 54 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: a factual timeline and the actual facts of how Locke died. 55 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 5: He's no logic to it all. If he wanted to 56 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 5: jump and he would to jump in at the first 57 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 5: poond to walk through all that rap terrain, preckles, thistles, stones, 58 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 5: it was sheepshitt where it would have been all over speed. 59 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 5: We went out there the next day. He had cupped 60 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 5: some marks on our feet or bites in that and 61 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 5: yet he arrived at the funeral home of Purple perfect condition. 62 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 5: Not one mark on him. How does that add up? 63 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 5: There's no forensics done and that the whole thing was 64 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 5: shut down that night should have never been shut down. 65 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 5: The police didn't do their job. He has experienced people there, 66 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 5: They knew what their job was. They haven't done it, 67 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 5: and I want to know why. 68 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: That inquest, it revealed a confused chain of command amongst 69 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: police at the scene. 70 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: What can you tell us about that? 71 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 3: So during the initial investigation, there was some confusion amongst 72 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: the responding officers about who was in charge. To put 73 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 3: it plainly, it seems like they were ill equipped for 74 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: the immediate investigation on the night and formal chain command 75 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 3: was not established. Two of the responding officers both believed 76 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 3: the other to be in charge, and. 77 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: The pathologist who performed Locke's autopsy was also questioned as 78 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: a part of that. 79 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: Hey, what was their testimony? 80 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: So he had name Suppression. The pathologists who conducted the 81 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: autopsy had named Suppression. But they did talk about examining 82 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: Lockie's body and the days after he was found dead, 83 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: and his pathologist report has been criticized by senior pathologists. 84 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: They did note that conducting pathology reports on children was 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 3: not their general criteria, but because the autopsy was conducted 86 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 3: in for cargol. Circumstances led to this particular pathologists conducting 87 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 3: the autopsy, and they said they went into the autopsy 88 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: on the assumption that Locke had been drowned, because that 89 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: had been noted on the police report. So his lung 90 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 3: were not checked for water, but they were a weighed 91 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: and his head was not opened up, so it was 92 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 3: not established whether there had been any damage to Locke's 93 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 3: head or anything like that. But the weight of his lungs, 94 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 3: there is some dispute about the weight of his lungs 95 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: not being in line with the weight that would be 96 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 3: expected if Lockie had drowned. 97 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: During those three weeks, the lawyer for Paul Jones repeatedly 98 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: insinuated that Lockie's mother, Michelle Officer, and her two older 99 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: sons had a role to play in this death. Like 100 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: you mentioned before, how did those examinations play out in 101 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: the inquest? 102 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: So, Paul Jones's lawyer, Max Simpkins, he held quite lengthy 103 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: examinations of Michelle Officer, her sons and other witnesses. Michelle 104 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: Officer's evidence went for two days and throughout those two days, 105 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: Max did put it quite bluntly that well, he asked 106 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: bluntly if Michelle had had a role in Locke's death. 107 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: He asked her if Lockey was put in a freezer, 108 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: what she denied, And he basically asked her several times 109 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: and in multiple different ways, if she or her other 110 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: sons had anything to do with Lockey's death. The same 111 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: win for when her sons were on the stand, he 112 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: asked them very bluntly if Lockey had died earlier that 113 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: day and been put in a freezer while they figured 114 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: out what to do with them, which they denied. Yeah, 115 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 3: he put her multiple ways. He put multiple accusations and 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: insinuations that Michelle or her sons had something to do 117 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: with the death or were otherwise involved in the cover up. 118 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: You spoke with Michelle recently in her first media interview 119 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: in the five years since her son died. Given the 120 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: media coverage this case has had that she has not 121 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: participated in. How did this interview come about? Why did 122 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,119 Speaker 2: she want to speak now? 123 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: So I have been in slight contact with Michelle for 124 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: a little while now, speaking about the potential for an 125 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 3: interview which she was really hesitant to partake, and she 126 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: has said that she does have faith in the justice system, 127 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 3: but despite the finding of the police investigations, it was 128 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: becoming clear that the story almost has a life of 129 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: its own, and she felt the need to speak out 130 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: against the allegations that have continued to be propagated despite 131 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: the official findings. So she was very reluctant, but essentially 132 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: wanted to have people understand what she's been going through 133 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: throughout these past five years. 134 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: In Ben's piece, he wrote about how in twenty twenty one, 135 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 2: Michelle Officer read in a local newspaper that a headstone 136 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: unveiling ceremony had been scheduled for Locke's birthday. When she 137 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: reached out to the local funeral home, she was advised 138 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: to seek legal counsel. The headstone omitted any mention of 139 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: Locke's mother or brothers. Here's a voice actor reading what 140 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: Michelle told the Herald about that experience and what the 141 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: last five years. 142 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Have been like for her. 143 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 6: Me and my children went up to Lockey's grave that 144 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 6: night after dark, because we knew no one would be there, 145 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 6: because I didn't want to walk into an ambush of people. 146 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 6: So we walked up to the site on his birthday 147 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 6: and it was already there. It just destroyed us. I 148 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 6: honestly thought we would have done a headstone together, father, 149 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 6: mother and brothers. That's not where I go to remember 150 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 6: Lockey because it brings back all those feelings and accusations. 151 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 6: I'm still really grieving, and I've been accused of not 152 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 6: grieving as a story. It keeps coming up in the 153 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,239 Speaker 6: media every few months. Just makes me feel sick with anxiety. 154 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 6: It hasn't stopped for five and a half years. I 155 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 6: just want to grieve in private. It's cruel and unfair. 156 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 6: And the people making these judgments, how would they cope 157 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 6: with it? Words can't express what you go through. 158 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: How does she remember Locke? 159 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 3: It's clear that she really loved Lockie. She remembers him 160 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 3: as a very energetic, bubbly young boy. They had a 161 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 3: lot of adventures together. They would go to the park, 162 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: and she said several times that she loved being a mother. 163 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 3: That was always her number one thing, to be a mother. 164 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 3: And she finds it hard to draw back those memories 165 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: of Lockie because of the pain associated with the loss 166 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: and ben. 167 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: The second part of the coronial inquest starts this week. 168 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: What's expected to be covered. 169 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 3: Now, so the next two weeks We're going to be 170 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: hearing from expert witnesses, so that'll be some of the 171 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: senior pathologists who earlier critiques the pathologists who conducted Locke's 172 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: initial autopsy. We're going to be hearing from a retired 173 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: American FBI agent former FBI agent who has also heavily 174 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: criticized the police investigations. And we're going to be hearing 175 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 3: from Locke's brother. Johnny is going to be reappearing during 176 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: the second week to give evidence for a second time. 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Ben, That said, for this episode 178 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 179 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald. 180 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: Dot co dot nz. 181 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills with sound 182 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: engineer Patty Fox. 183 00:11:58,840 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniel. 184 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 185 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 186 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: Another look behind the headlines.