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Speaker 1: Health in New Zealand is urging the government to consider

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Speaker 1: allowing private companies to build and even potentially run the

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Speaker 1: country's hospitals. In addition to the issues with the new

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Speaker 1: Dunedin Hospital, Health and Z says there are more than

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Speaker 1: a dozen other large projects classified as having significant risks.

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Speaker 1: The government says it's open to exploring alternative funding. Former

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Speaker 1: Health and ZED chair Rob Campbell is with us this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Kyoda Rob Cua, Jack, what do you think.

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Speaker 2: About Sauvi or the hospital both?

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Speaker 1: He never shy up having an opinion. Let's start with

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Speaker 1: the hospitals and finish at Saudi.

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Speaker 2: Good. That's a look. I think this is being raised now. Frankly,

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Speaker 2: it's a bit of a diversion. It is an issue.

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Speaker 2: The health officials have been working ways around privatization of

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Speaker 2: health facilities and health practices for quite some time, so

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Speaker 2: it's not new. A lot of work has been done

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Speaker 2: on this. It's previously been held off because the very

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Speaker 2: large projects like the need in the hospital frankly wouldn't

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Speaker 2: even attract a partner to do the kind of work

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Speaker 2: that needs to be done. Now we are having an

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Speaker 2: increasingly privatized health system by default, where the public doesn't provide.

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Speaker 2: If people can see a way to do it profitably,

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Speaker 2: they will in the private sector, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of that going on. There was a private hospital oath

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Speaker 2: them just recently, and the other providers are opening clinics

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Speaker 2: and all those kinds of things all the time. So

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Speaker 2: you really go to distinguish between the things that will

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Speaker 2: just happen in the normal course of having a significantly

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Speaker 2: privatized healthcare system and what you can do to build

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Speaker 2: the very large if you like base hospitals or core hospitals,

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Speaker 2: like the the needing one, where it's quite a different issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So my take with PPPs, and correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong here, is that there is no one size

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Speaker 1: fits all, right, and you can't simply take a binary

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Speaker 1: perspective and say they're all good or they're all bad.

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Speaker 1: But what are the things that we would need to

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Speaker 1: consider if going down the PPP path when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the delivery of healthcare.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly the question we should be asking. And the

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Speaker 2: real danger here is and the reason that things like

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Speaker 2: to need in hospital and to a lesser extent because

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Speaker 2: they're a bit smaller. Fung Ai and Nelson and some

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Speaker 2: other projects are in trouble is that the necessary skills

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Speaker 2: to plan and design and prepare for these projects have

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Speaker 2: been lost in the New Zealand health system in recent years.

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Speaker 2: Now that's pretty but it's a fact they're not there,

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Speaker 2: and you can't solve those way if you like contracting

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Speaker 2: it out or trying to build a PPP. If you

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Speaker 2: don't have the skills to build and run a big hospital,

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Speaker 2: you almost certainly don't have the skills to prepare a

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Speaker 2: PPP structure in anything other than one which might help

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Speaker 2: the accounting from the government point of view, because the

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Speaker 2: money comes in from the private sector in the first instance,

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Speaker 2: but the cost won't be lower. The risks will all

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Speaker 2: still sit back with the Crown, with the government, with

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Speaker 2: the taxpayer, and so it's hugely dangerous to have people

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Speaker 2: now throwing around these ideas that, ah, it's an answer

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Speaker 2: to some of our current problems. We've lost the skills,

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Speaker 2: and until we rebuild those skills, and until we rebuild

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Speaker 2: a proper way of planning for hospital properties, it's incredibly dangerous.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think it's reckless to be talking about

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Speaker 2: contracting these things out to the private sector.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the government's position with regards

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Speaker 1: to Needen Hospital.

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Speaker 2: Look, Duneden Hospital frankly has been a mess right from inception.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to go back over the issue as

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Speaker 2: to whether a very large hospital should be built into

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Speaker 2: need Met decisions being taken some time ago. But in

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Speaker 2: the last five or six years there's just been a

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Speaker 2: constant merry go round of things been added and subtracted.

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Speaker 2: When I was in the part of the world, we

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Speaker 2: would get proposals that were called business cases. One of

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Speaker 2: them excluded any provision whatsoever for the information technology in

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Speaker 2: the hospital. How stupid is that? So you had these

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Speaker 2: roundabouts going on, this is in, that's out, this is in,

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Speaker 2: that's out, and never really focus on a proper plan

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Speaker 2: to develop over time. And this would be a hospital

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Speaker 2: that's built over time over time the kind of facilities

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Speaker 2: that are really needed. So it's a planning and design

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Speaker 2: and preparation issue. I think the construction part of it

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Speaker 2: is not the biggest issue, and the plane ticket frankly

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Speaker 2: is also not the biggest issue.

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Speaker 1: Right, So does that mean that Dunedin should have its

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Speaker 1: hospital built in full as originally planned.

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Speaker 2: Well as originally planned is really the open question because

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Speaker 2: There's been so many plans that have changed over time.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, this is not my decision or anyone

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Speaker 2: now in the health sector is to decision. Governments have

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Speaker 2: committed to building a certain type of hospital, and yes,

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Speaker 2: in my view, is therefore the commitment to get on

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Speaker 2: and build it, and trying to play around was, oh,

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Speaker 2: whether someone's built into this or you know, whether you know.

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Speaker 2: One of the ridiculous things now is oh, you may

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Speaker 2: get cheap and by not having car packs, except you

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Speaker 2: are going to have car parks. They're just going to

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Speaker 2: be private and they'll be paid with some other way.

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Speaker 2: All that mucking about is really a diversion from getting

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Speaker 2: on with the core of providing the essential facilities that

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Speaker 2: are needed in that hospital. Whether that's a good idea

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Speaker 2: or not doesn't really matter anymore. That decision has been

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Speaker 2: made a long time ago and they've got to get

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Speaker 2: on with it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Finally, then Rob Saudi the right call for me to

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Speaker 1: stand down.

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Speaker 2: If he stood down, I don't know. I suspect he

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Speaker 2: was probably helped to stand down, but he's a great

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Speaker 2: New Zealand cricketer and frankly, if we've put the effort

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Speaker 2: into planning our hospitals that we put into planning our

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Speaker 2: top sports teams. We wouldn't have these problems at a target.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time, Rob, That is the former tier

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Speaker 1: of Tifata water Health inzed Rob Campbell right now at

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Speaker 1: sixteen past four. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,

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Speaker 1: listen live to News Talk zid B from four pm weekdays,

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