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Speaker 1: The Huddle with New Zealand Southbea's international realty, local and

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Speaker 1: global exposure like no.

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Speaker 2: Other, The Huddle of that's the evening and got Jordan

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Speaker 2: Williams of the Taxpayers Union and Alie Jones have read

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Speaker 2: pr Hello you two get a head Jordan, are you

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Speaker 2: into the performance pay?

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously from taxpayers perspective, but of course per our

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Speaker 3: public servants are already paid twenty one twenty two percent

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Speaker 3: more on average than the private sector. The problem is

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Speaker 3: is that all of the stuff has always done on top.

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Speaker 3: To address your point about quite right about if you

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Speaker 3: incentivize out puts, you get outputs. So it is you

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Speaker 3: want to incentivize outcomes and it's a challenge across the public.

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Speaker 2: Are you suggesting because they're already paid so much more

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Speaker 2: than the private sector, what you want to do is

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Speaker 2: drop their base pay and then put this on the top.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially at chief executive level.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how much would you shave off their base pay?

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Speaker 3: Well, it depends on what the generosity of the of

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Speaker 3: the performance payers, you know, I mean it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit like a contrarian view. The Taxpaars Union take as

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Speaker 3: you know, we don't we often and brew Hahara about

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Speaker 3: MP's pay because you've got no link to performance. Ever,

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Speaker 3: we've got the worst. We don't take a Swiss approach,

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Speaker 3: we pay nothing and get people philanthropping, and we don't

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Speaker 3: take a Singapore approach where you generally get the best

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Speaker 3: and brightest. We start to do in the middle much

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Speaker 3: better actually, in terms of the you want quality decisions,

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Speaker 3: same as the chief executives your big agencies. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: actually matter if you pay them a lot, but it's

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Speaker 3: got to be contingent on performance doing the job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think, Allie?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't agree that it doesn't depend on what

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Speaker 4: you pay them. I think, you know, you pay peanuts,

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Speaker 4: you get monkeys. And I see that in local government

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Speaker 4: as well, So I think there has to be some

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Speaker 4: reflection of yeah, well, I think there needs to be

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Speaker 4: some reflection in ability, but and you know, and outputs.

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Speaker 4: But I do agree let's not be distracted by the increases.

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Speaker 4: They need close scrutiny, but you've got to look at

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Speaker 4: those base levels as well, which are absolutely ridiculous. At

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Speaker 4: the moment, I thought that was really interesting what Jeff

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Speaker 4: Plimmer said with regards to the gaming of it, and

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Speaker 4: I think that outputs and.

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Speaker 5: Outcome are very similar.

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Speaker 4: We saw it in christ Church with EQC, So you

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Speaker 4: know they had outputs or outcomes, which were how many

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Speaker 4: repairs they did and what did they do. They did

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Speaker 4: all the painting first, so that was the stuff that

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Speaker 4: showed that they were doing the work that they were doing,

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Speaker 4: and all the hard stuff got left for a decade.

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Speaker 5: So your transparency's the key here too.

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Speaker 4: There's got to be transparency and that will help manage

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Speaker 4: the gaming of.

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Speaker 3: It weasonly the world in this area Aarranton. You need

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Speaker 3: the old framework from the nineties around the statements of

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Speaker 3: performance expectations and the like. That's just was is basically

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Speaker 3: now gone. And actually I think that I can't recall

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Speaker 3: the former Minister of the Public Sector that did all

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Speaker 3: the reforms at Chris Hapkins and you know, got rid

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Speaker 3: of the sort of last at a performance base. It's

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Speaker 3: all just gone back to sort of nineteen seventy style government.

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Speaker 2: It really has. They've lost their focus. All right, We're

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Speaker 2: going to take a break, come back very short to

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Speaker 2: talk about the attack on the bus.

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Speaker 1: The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty Elevated Marketing

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Speaker 1: of your home, Back.

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Speaker 2: With the Huddle, Jordan Williams and Allie Joe's Ali. This

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Speaker 2: bus attack, right, this guy had a history of threatening people,

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Speaker 2: breaching paro, breaching his release conditions and stuff. Isn't this

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Speaker 2: a perfect example of somebody actually should have been locked

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Speaker 2: up to keep us safe.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not black and white, Heather. You know what

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Speaker 4: does being harder on crim's mean to? What's your harder?

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Speaker 4: May not be my harder or Jordan's harder. I'm sure

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Speaker 4: there are people out there that would be happy to

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Speaker 4: have people strung up in the village square, you know,

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Speaker 4: return of the death penalty. This cannot be a one

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Speaker 4: size fits all. You know, there are mental health issues,

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Speaker 4: generational dysfunction, addiction, There's a whole lot of stuff that

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Speaker 4: plays into these kinds of does any criminal acts does

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Speaker 4: any of that?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 5: It does? Yes, it does matter, because.

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Speaker 2: I mean, okay, I just want to finish the sentence.

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Speaker 2: I just want to say, does any of it matter

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Speaker 2: when a woman is sitting on a bus next to

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Speaker 2: someone that she doesn't know and that someone allegedly stabs

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Speaker 2: her to death?

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Speaker 5: Does it matters?

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Speaker 4: If you want it does matter? If you want to

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Speaker 4: try and stop it if you think.

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Speaker 2: That was arming him in jail?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and what does that do to someone who's got mental.

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Speaker 3: Health she's alive.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's a revenge thing. Okay, do you want

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Speaker 5: to stop from happening? Do you want.

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Speaker 4: This to stop happening to other people or do you

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Speaker 4: want to get this person? Because if you want to

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Speaker 4: stop it happening to other people, you have to look

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Speaker 4: at why it's happening and stop it from happening.

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Speaker 3: And UTU is a totally legitimate objective, but not.

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Speaker 4: As a broad not as a broad brush stroke that

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Speaker 4: is not going to answer your questions. There are people

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Speaker 4: that answer the issue. There are people that are quite

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Speaker 4: happy with three meals a day and a roof over

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Speaker 4: their head in prison. So if you think that just

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Speaker 4: tarring everyone with the same brush and waking them in

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Speaker 4: jail is going to be a distance.

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Speaker 3: I've got a rap sheet. This guy's going to problem.

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Speaker 3: We let him out the what was it threatened to Kell?

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Speaker 3: Should have got so.

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Speaker 2: Threatening to Kell last year? Should be sentenced for two

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Speaker 2: to seven years, but gets one year seven months, which

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Speaker 2: means because he's under the magic two years, he gets

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Speaker 2: let out when he's served half of it presumably served

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Speaker 2: half of it while in custody on remand therefore the

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Speaker 2: minity sentenced. He's out again.

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Speaker 5: Ye, you're making assumptions. You're making assumption probably no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 5: that's not even the end of it.

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Speaker 2: Alley, No, I'm not rea his release conditions. He's back

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Speaker 2: in court two weeks ago and hello bail.

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Speaker 4: You are making assumptions, though, that this is someone who

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Speaker 4: can actually look at what's happening to them and the

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Speaker 4: and the the action that has taken against them, process

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Speaker 4: that in their brains, see that as something that has

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Speaker 4: got No, I'm not saying it's not his fault. What

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Speaker 4: I'm saying is if this person has got mental health issues,

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Speaker 4: if this person has got a problem that chucking them

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Speaker 4: in jail is not going to fix, then what the

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Speaker 4: hell good is chucking them in jail?

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Speaker 5: Thank you?

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Speaker 2: That is fundamentally the question. What good would it be

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Speaker 2: to keep this guy in jail? It would save a

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Speaker 2: woman's life.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So what do you do about the next time

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Speaker 4: when there's someone who's got a mental health issue and.

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Speaker 5: You chuck them in jail as well?

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Speaker 4: Are you just going to shove everyone and not actually

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Speaker 4: help people out who have got a mental health or addictionasy.

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Speaker 3: If it's going with zychotic, he wouldn't have been convicted

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Speaker 3: last time.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't know that. Again, we're making assumptions.

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Speaker 2: I just don't know, Alie, if arguing on behalf of

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Speaker 2: the alleged criminal is the right side of this argument.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm arguing against an idea that I think is

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Speaker 4: so black and white and philosophically.

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Speaker 5: Blinked that it's dangerous.

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Speaker 4: It is dangerous to tar everyone with the same brush.

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Speaker 5: I'm not saying.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I feel terrible for this family and for

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Speaker 4: this woman getting on a bus and traveling doing anything

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Speaker 4: you should be able to do and feel safe. But

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Speaker 4: this shoved them all in jail, and that will keep

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Speaker 4: us all safe. Stuff is just bollot.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think threatening to kill, you know, first, to

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Speaker 3: get between two and seven years, you should get that.

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Speaker 3: That's so I don't think particularly radical. It does demonstrate, though,

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Speaker 3: how hollow the government's talk is including exchanges to three strikes.

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Speaker 3: That this chap wouldn't have even got a strike under this,

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Speaker 3: under this new regime, and it illustrates the very reason

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Speaker 3: that the three strikes should be there and it's been abandoned.

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Speaker 3: Is that it should trigger on the conviction, not the sentence.

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Speaker 5: Yes, Jordan, let me ask you this. Okay, let me

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Speaker 5: just put this to you.

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Speaker 4: If this person went to jail and had been incarcerated

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Speaker 4: for say seven years or the full length of the sentence,

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Speaker 4: and then was released as.

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Speaker 3: They were unless they had a rap sheet first.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let me just finish.

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Speaker 4: If someone went to jail for the period of time

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Speaker 4: that you feel that they should have gone to jail,

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Speaker 4: or that the law allows them to. But the issue

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Speaker 4: is not shoving them in jail, and that will fix

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Speaker 4: the problem. When they come out, they're back to the

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Speaker 4: addiction or they're back to the mental health and then

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Speaker 4: they go on to kill hang on, and then.

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Speaker 5: They go and kill someone else.

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Speaker 4: What I'm saying is, what good is shoving someone in

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Speaker 4: jail if you are not dealing with the problem that

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Speaker 4: put them there in the first place.

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Speaker 3: Let someone out for an early release. They breached the conditions,

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Speaker 3: and our system is so weak as water, We'll let

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Speaker 3: you out.

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Speaker 5: That's not what I said to you, though.

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Speaker 2: You point your point, Ali, and maybe I can answer

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Speaker 2: it for you.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So he is more likely if they're right, we're making

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Speaker 2: all these assumptions about him that we don't know. But

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Speaker 2: let's assume that there are these issues. Right, he is

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Speaker 2: more likely to get that assistance if he's in jail

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Speaker 2: for seven years than he is if he's in jail

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Speaker 2: for nine months, isn't he Because that's.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what the rehabilitation and the mental health

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Speaker 4: support is like.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the finds that Mike Mitchell has

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Speaker 2: rolled out recently, is all of this assistance for people

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Speaker 2: who are in jail, right, but he's going to get

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Speaker 2: absolutely deadly squat if he's out on the on the

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Speaker 2: streets just wandering around.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, look, if they're going to get the support

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Speaker 4: and the help that they need while they're in prison, great,

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Speaker 4: that's a great place to it. But again I don't

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Speaker 4: know that that happens.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hey, very quickly, I want to talk about what

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Speaker 2: these complaints about David Seymour's lunch in school's program is

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Speaker 2: getting ridiculous, isn't it. It's clutching its straws. What's more

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Speaker 2: important to you is it the price? Is it being

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Speaker 2: able to roll the food out at an affordable cost

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Speaker 2: to the kids or the aluminium trade.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean kids starving, but you know, let them

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Speaker 3: eat cake as long as it friendly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What do you think, Ellie?

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Speaker 5: No, I don't think.

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Speaker 4: I think it shouldn't be either or I think we

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Speaker 4: should be able to feed kids. And I thought that

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Speaker 4: the beat up on the meals was ridiculous. Actually the

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Speaker 4: kids were saying, give me more. Great that that's your market.

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Speaker 4: But why should we not be leading by example here

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Speaker 4: and if they can produce something.

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Speaker 5: Although I heard your interview either, that was bizarre. It

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Speaker 5: was really weird.

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Speaker 4: But we should be practicing what we preach and should

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Speaker 4: we should be showing kids that you can do this

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Speaker 4: in a you know, an environmentally sustainable way.

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Speaker 5: So but I still don't know whether we are or

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Speaker 5: not after that interview, do.

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Speaker 2: You No, I have no bloody idea. I feel like

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Speaker 2: it was just a winch best for the sake of it,

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Speaker 2: which is a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of what get the free biscuit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I get It's biscuit Thursday. So I

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Speaker 2: went and got Jordan a biscuit and what was it?

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Speaker 3: A chit chat?

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Speaker 2: Willn't it?

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Speaker 1: Those are good? Eh?

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Speaker 4: Hey?

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Speaker 3: Hey, sorry sorry?

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Speaker 2: I would love to say that I would send it

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Speaker 2: down to you. But you know what, Allie, you don't

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Speaker 2: like rubber right, you said, Alie, we have to lead

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Speaker 2: by example, So I'm not going to waste the climate

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Speaker 2: mass on sending you a chip chat you up to

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Speaker 2: buy your own. Thank you, guys, appreciate it. Jordan Williams,

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Speaker 2: Allie Jones, Hudle this evening.

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