1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,840 Speaker 1: God, Heather, do to see Allen. 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 2: But anyway, Alan Lickman, who you know, is much more 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 2: experienced than I am and much more credible on this. 4 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 2: He'll be with us after five o'clock. Now, more than 5 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: fifty former Olympians have signed an open letter calling on 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: the government to rethink letting transgender athletes participate in women's 7 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: sports at the community level. The athletes, which include former 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: Olympians Barbara Kendall and also David Girard, said Sports New 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: Zealand's guidelines disregard the rights of female athletes and go 10 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: against scientific eveness. 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: Now. 12 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: David Gerard is also an emeritus professor in sports medicine 13 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: at Otago University. Hey, Dave, Hello, how are you? 14 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Heather? 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: Very well, and it's very nice to talk to you again. Now, 16 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 2: what is your concern about the participation of transgender women 17 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: at the community level? 18 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: Well, my concern hasn't changed over the years. But I 19 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: think what has changed, Heather is the discussion we're having 20 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: now is a little bit different to the one we 21 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: would have had five years ago. And that's because there's 22 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: a lot more very convincing evidence and research out there 23 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: to show unequivocally that male bodied athletes. In other words, 24 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: athletes who have transitioned, having had the benefit of male 25 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: puberty will retain most of those benefits, irrespective of whether 26 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: they take and gen suppressing drugs and reidentify as a woman. 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: In other words, if we logically depending upon somebody's self 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: identification as the criterion for competition against females, then we're 29 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: ignoring the science, and I think we're being dismissive of 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: female athletes. 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, now you're not going to get an argument 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: out of me on that one. But I'd made a 33 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: distinction personally between what's going on at the professional or 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: elite level, where I think transgender women cannot compete against 35 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: against this gender women, but at the community level I 36 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: was more relaxed about it. Am I wrong? 37 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: No? I don't necessarily think you're wrong, and I think 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: the jury is still out on that. I guess the 39 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: question that's raised and we need some more clarity from 40 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: Sport New Zealand on this is where we draw the line. 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: If somebody meets the criteria and participates in community sport, 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: and it's everyone's prerogative, isn't it The physical and psychological 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 1: benefits of exercise everyone's right, But where do we how 44 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: far do we allow a trans athlete to progress if 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: they want to participate in a team sport where there 46 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: may be contact, physical contact and issues relating to danger 47 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: or safety, And then there's the fairness. I think these 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: criterias still apply even in a community sport level, and 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: I think that's the clarity that's needed by the swimming 50 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: clubs and the athletic clubs and the social clubs, irrespective 51 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: of the sport and the national sporting association we're talking about. 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so do you think all of the things that 53 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: apply all of my objections at the elite level, which 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: is that you know, people body, people born into a 55 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: male body are better at competing, that they can throw further, 56 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: they can run faster, they can jump hi, they've got 57 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: all of that advantage, but also the damage that can 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 2: be done to the female body. All of those things 59 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: that I see as problems at the elite level, you 60 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: see at community level as well. 61 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: Well. I think it's it begins somewhere. I'm not, for 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: one moment trying to exclude trans athletes or transgender individuals 63 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: from participating, but I'm just trying to get some logic 64 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: to this you know, how how far do you allow 65 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: somebody to go? And do you allow you know, male 66 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: bodied athletes to compete in collision sports or you know. 67 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I just think there's a there's an issue 68 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: there that's still got to be addressed. 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: Look, I think fair for you to raise it, Dave. 70 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: What do we do though? I mean, if you've got 71 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: there will be a number of trans women in the 72 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: community who will want to be able to do things 73 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: like play netball or rugby or box or whatever. So 74 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: if they can't do it with women who they identify with, 75 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: where do they do it. 76 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't participate, but I'm 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: just asking that we add some clarity to this and 78 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: people are open and honest about it. And if a 79 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: bunch of netballers or a women's rugby team says, yes, 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: we're quite happy to have athlete X play with us 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: or against us, then that's fine. I just think there 82 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: needs to be some common sense applied to something which 83 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: was ideological. 84 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: And give me your common sense, though, don't pussy foot 85 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: around on the stave, because you don't have to pussy 86 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: foot around on this particular program. We take everybody's opinions 87 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: as full noise as they come. So tell me what 88 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: you think, because you're the expert. Should trans women be 89 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: competing against naturally born women at the community sport level? 90 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Well, again, it depends on the sport we're talking about, yep. 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: And if they want to join the swimming club or 92 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: run athletically, or throw the discuss or put the shot. Yeah, 93 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: you know. But what I'm more concerned about the issues 94 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: relating to physical contact in the same way you wouldn't 95 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: get a flyway or abandoned way, box are expected. 96 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 2: To So you're talking about rugby, rugby league, boxing, those 97 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: kinds of things. 98 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: Collision, collision and contact sports. That's you know, I mean, 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: as a physician, that's where my consume would be. 100 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: David's always good to talk to you. I really appreciate it. 101 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: Dave Gerard, former Olympian and emeritus professor in Sports Medicine 102 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: at Otago University. For more from Hither duplessy Allen Drive, 103 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: listen live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 104 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.