Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Projessica Rodkin.
Speaker 2: Welcome to season six of our New Zealand Herald podcast
Speaker 2: The Little Things.
Speaker 3: And I'm Louise Arie. As you may well know, in
Speaker 3: this podcast, we talk to experts and find out all
Speaker 3: the little things you need to know to improve different
Speaker 3: areas of your life. We cut through all the confusion
Speaker 3: and overload of information out there to just try and
Speaker 3: help your silfl fly your life really hopefully. Yeah and us, Yeah, yeah, totally. Hey,
Speaker 3: can I ask a quick question? Have you got your
Speaker 3: hat to have your hearing checked yet? What? Sorry, God,
Speaker 3: that was a joke anyway, No, I haven't known.
Speaker 2: No, It's just I've just noticed a couple of things
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. And I think over Easter
Speaker 2: for some reason, we were watching the six PM news,
Speaker 2: which we never sit down and watch, and we have
Speaker 2: some very very good news readers in this wed and
Speaker 2: we were sitting there and this story came on and
Speaker 2: the presenter said a man and his corkies were arrested
Speaker 2: in the UK for damaging an Air Force aircraft. And
Speaker 2: I was just sitting there going, why do he have
Speaker 2: his cookies with him? Was trying to make some sort
Speaker 2: of comment on you know, he's a support of the
Speaker 2: queen or something. Just soper sad that you take your
Speaker 2: corkies with you if you're going to kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: to face these I don't know. It was so weird
Speaker 2: and I turned and I looked at my partner and
Speaker 2: he just looked me. Meant a man in his forties.
Speaker 2: I've just been rifting on the fact that there was
Speaker 2: this article but about a man and his.
Speaker 1: Corkies and gone isn't too small to even so I've
Speaker 1: done this huge rift on it.
Speaker 2: He's like a man in his forties. I'm like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: so there were no corkies. I was like, it's like, no, no,
Speaker 2: Corky left the corkies a home. Yeah, but this has
Speaker 2: been happening a little bit and I kind of just
Speaker 2: don't want to go because they're just going to say
Speaker 2: something to me that I hear so often at the moment,
Speaker 2: which is, well, it's okay for your age say that
Speaker 2: that's kind of I mean, look between boob skin, cervix.
Speaker 1: Is until your eyes.
Speaker 3: Oh my ayes, that's bloody terrible yeap, yes, it just
Speaker 3: look I can't say too much because I'm actually really
Speaker 3: bad at looking after that too, And there is actually
Speaker 3: a really good study going on at the university. If
Speaker 3: you're between forty five and fifty five, you can go.
Speaker 3: They're going to study the perimdopausal eye, which I think
Speaker 3: is very cool. So you're going to sign up for
Speaker 3: that one you get twenty dollars cool.
Speaker 2: I probably do need to do that as well, because
Speaker 2: I'm finding i'm sending off I always just write cheers
Speaker 2: Francisca at the end of my emails, but the mbox
Speaker 2: that that the print is very small, and I've noticed
Speaker 2: actually have been sending off emails going cheese, Francisca.
Speaker 1: It's just been automatically changing cheese. If I haven't noticed
Speaker 1: how people are going cheese, you know?
Speaker 3: That is?
Speaker 1: She like, what is?
Speaker 3: I have an extraordinary amount of floaters, but I have
Speaker 3: always had them. And the other day I had a
Speaker 3: bit of migrain and I was looking at my white
Speaker 3: ceiling and I and they just I was like, how
Speaker 3: do you even see out of these eyes of Luis?
Speaker 3: There's so many floaters. So that's another thing. I don't
Speaker 3: don't think they can do anything.
Speaker 1: About those that stage and stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and no, I need to go to keep tacking
Speaker 2: all these things off totally, totally right to today's We
Speaker 2: have talked to the fabulous Lucy Hoane about her book,
Speaker 2: now a best seller.
Speaker 1: How will I get through this?
Speaker 2: About some of the unwelcome events life throws at us?
Speaker 2: But what about the everyday negative thoughts and criticisms that
Speaker 2: undermine our general wellbeing and can sabotage our joy and
Speaker 2: resilience in ways we might never even realize are hurting us,
Speaker 2: or worst, we do realize, but we feel unable to
Speaker 2: shift the pattern.
Speaker 3: I mean, you've known me a long time, Franchis scat,
Speaker 3: I can. I can like go into a downward spiral
Speaker 3: pretty bloody fast, and some if I get bad feedback
Speaker 3: or just hear some negative news, I don't seem to
Speaker 3: spiral upwards nearly at the same rate. And I'm sure
Speaker 3: I'm not alone in this.
Speaker 2: It's just like an oil price. You rock it up
Speaker 2: and you float down like a feather.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks love. Even though like academically right, I know
Speaker 3: it's and I know and understand the principles of mindfulness
Speaker 3: and things just being as they are, but it can
Speaker 3: be quite hard sometimes to keep that negativity at bay.
Speaker 3: It's not anxiety or depression. It's just feeling blah or
Speaker 3: a little bit sorry for myself or for someone else.
Speaker 1: Or for the world.
Speaker 3: So how do you manage unwelcome negative thoughts or you're
Speaker 3: inner self critic?
Speaker 1: Francisca Well, I work in radio.
Speaker 2: True, I work in the media, and you know, one
Speaker 2: of the joys of my job has been able to
Speaker 2: communicate with our audience through calls or texts and things.
Speaker 2: But not everybody does communicate on the topic. And look,
Speaker 2: I have no problem with people having completely different opinions
Speaker 2: for me. I enjoy being challenged thinking about other people's perspectives.
Speaker 2: But a few people do like to get personal, so
Speaker 2: I have developed a pretty thick skin around it about
Speaker 2: who to listen to and who not to listen to,
Speaker 2: and when to listen and when not to. But look,
Speaker 2: I'm often amazed at the number of very talented people
Speaker 2: who I speak to on the Sunday session who will
Speaker 2: say that they've got imposter syndrome. They don't feel like
Speaker 2: they belong, they don't they don't feel like they should
Speaker 2: be there, that they're not capable of, you know, doing
Speaker 2: a job or that they're currently doing in things.
Speaker 1: And I.
Speaker 2: Find that sad that a you know, like negative thoughts
Speaker 2: or sort of self criticism and things could stop people
Speaker 2: from doing things, trying new things, or have confidence to doing.
Speaker 3: And some of that will be what the world has
Speaker 3: always told us, and particularly maybe for women and certainly
Speaker 3: for middle age one who can start to feel a
Speaker 3: little bit invisible. And some of it will be in
Speaker 3: a critic that believes that stuff or who's internalized that stuff.
Speaker 3: And I'd really like to get to the bottom of
Speaker 3: that idea that we can change our responses to negative
Speaker 3: feedback or criticism or or even learn from it. You know,
Speaker 3: we're always into growth here, Francisca, aren't we.
Speaker 1: That we are?
Speaker 2: We've got the perfect person to help us out today.
Speaker 2: Carl McDonald as a registered to psychotherapist with over twenty
Speaker 2: years clinical experience across both public and private mental health services.
Speaker 2: KYL is hugely passionate about educating the public around mental
Speaker 2: health and emotional wellbeing, as well as being a vocal
Speaker 2: advocate for improving our mental health services. He's chair of
Speaker 2: the Psychotherapy Board of Altera, New Zealand, an author economist
Speaker 2: for the New Zealand Herald and Here is a colleague
Speaker 2: of mine at News talks. He'd be as co host
Speaker 2: of the Nutters Club every Sunday night.
Speaker 1: Kyle, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 4: Surely caught.
Speaker 3: It fantastic to have you here, data to talk through
Speaker 3: all these all these things that we might go here, there,
Speaker 3: and everywhere. But I think we'll get there in the end.
Speaker 4: That's all right. I'm sure we'll follow along.
Speaker 2: Basically, we wanted you to give us a bit of
Speaker 2: a hand because as we get older, we say that
Speaker 2: we give less fucks about what people think about us,
Speaker 2: and yet I think negative comments and criticism still can
Speaker 2: hit a nerve with us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it still can.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that what
Speaker 4: other people think of us really matters, no matter where
Speaker 4: we are in life. I guess it depends on who
Speaker 4: it is that we're may matter though.
Speaker 3: It's a very good point because I was resting all
Speaker 3: my faith in what other people think of me as
Speaker 3: none of my business. But maybe it is depending on
Speaker 3: who the person is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, sort of warming up for this today, I
Speaker 4: was thinking about the fact that I think what's really
Speaker 4: important with this is to think about the relationship, So
Speaker 4: where the criticism is coming from and who the criticism
Speaker 4: or negative feedback is coming from. But you know, it's
Speaker 4: this old sort of Buddhist idea which I think is
Speaker 4: often misinterpreted, which is that it's really important to have
Speaker 4: compassion for our enemies or compassion for people to who
Speaker 4: hurt us. And that's not about being nice or pleasant
Speaker 4: or forgiving people or making it okay. It's about giving
Speaker 4: some thought to what's going on for the other person
Speaker 4: when they're behaving in ways that are harmful to us.
Speaker 4: And so I sort of break it down into you know,
Speaker 4: is it a bad day, is it thoughtlessness?
Speaker 3: Or is it meanness?
Speaker 4: And I think if we think about those three categories,
Speaker 4: then we can sort of work our way through what's
Speaker 4: actually happening when somebody's giving us a hard time. So
Speaker 4: that first one, is it a bad day, is someone
Speaker 4: who might just actually be in a bad place themselves,
Speaker 4: And that's very much kind of important to then think about, well,
Speaker 4: that's a the end problem. You know, if it's clear
Speaker 4: that someone's having a bad day and they're taking it
Speaker 4: out on us, it can still be hurtful. But I
Speaker 4: think then it's actually about trying to recognize that what's
Speaker 4: going on for them is theirs, and I don't have
Speaker 4: to pick that up. If it's thoughtlessness, that's a little
Speaker 4: bit more tricky, particularly if it's a relationship that matters,
Speaker 4: because then it's about actually trying to let the other
Speaker 4: person know what they might not be thinking about or
Speaker 4: might not have in their mind about us. That has
Speaker 4: meant that they've lashed out in some way and in
Speaker 4: some ways. If it's someone who is just mean by nature,
Speaker 4: then it's kind of the easiest one, right, It's like
Speaker 4: dag gone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2: I've said this to you a lot over the years,
Speaker 2: and I say to my kids all the time, especially
Speaker 2: maybe when they were learning to drive, and maybe someone
Speaker 2: would be very aggressive, l quite rude to them, will
Speaker 2: do something stupid, you know, I say, you just do
Speaker 2: not know what is going on in that car. You
Speaker 2: do not know what kind of day that person has happened.
Speaker 2: This could be the worst day of their life. And
Speaker 2: I think that is really important to remember. But I
Speaker 2: remember one kid turning around instead of looking at me
Speaker 2: and going what if it's not, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we'll just complicat.
Speaker 1: Well, we'll never know, We'll never know. Let's just stick
Speaker 1: with that.
Speaker 2: So I quite like a bad day because the bad
Speaker 2: day stops and me getting worked up about something.
Speaker 3: Yes, and also you know if you're having a bad
Speaker 3: day and you might lash out, but we would probably
Speaker 3: apologize quite quickly. That you've got to have that. If
Speaker 3: you're the person giving that, you'd usually say I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: I'm just having a really terrible day or something. So
Speaker 3: I guess this thing, this process that you've just described,
Speaker 3: means that the person receiving the information does have to
Speaker 3: take a beat. Yeah, we have to.
Speaker 4: Keep our brain online, and that I think is always
Speaker 4: the challenge. So you know, if we think about just
Speaker 4: a bit of a mouthful really, which is we talk
Speaker 4: about this idea and therapy of emotional regulation, which is basically,
Speaker 4: how do you control the volume knob of your emotional
Speaker 4: distress on any given day. And so to be able
Speaker 4: to do that thinking, we do have to be regulated
Speaker 4: enough to keep the you know, the front part of
Speaker 4: our brain above our eye brain online to think about
Speaker 4: the other person. So you know, that is important to
Speaker 4: recognize that sometimes if we're losing our rag, actually the
Speaker 4: thing we need to do is calm ourselves down.
Speaker 2: First, and it could be you know, you need to
Speaker 2: take a moment and go, Okay, am I tired?
Speaker 1: Am I stress? What's going on? Yeah? Why am I
Speaker 1: reacting this way?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: We often talk about it on the show. Is the
Speaker 4: boring stuff with you know, sleeping, eating, minimizing alcohol and drugs,
Speaker 4: getting the exercise, you know, doing all that stuff which
Speaker 4: everyone goes, oh, no, I should do it, But actually
Speaker 4: it's always a good place to start women trying to
Speaker 4: assess what's going on with ourselves.
Speaker 2: There's also that saying, you know, never take criticism from
Speaker 2: someone you wouldn't take advice from. And this comes back
Speaker 2: to that what you're talking about the person who's delivering it.
Speaker 2: And I think that that that's a nice saying to have,
Speaker 2: but I don't know if it's quite that easy. It's
Speaker 2: a nice thing to have in the back of your mind.
Speaker 2: But then what if that criticism comes from someone that
Speaker 2: you would take advice from.
Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the hard ones which blows
Speaker 4: that role apart, is taking advice from your taking feedback
Speaker 4: from your children. Yeah, because a lot of times, you know,
Speaker 4: I've got two teenage girls or nearly a twelve year
Speaker 4: old who thinks she's sixteen and a fifteen year old
Speaker 4: who thinks she's eighteen. But that can be quite challenging
Speaker 4: because our kids do tend to you know, throw it
Speaker 4: back at us, and fair enough too a lot of
Speaker 4: the time, but it can be quite hard as a
Speaker 4: parent to take that feedback.
Speaker 3: I think I agree completely. And then they move out
Speaker 3: of home and they reflect on their you know, having
Speaker 3: their own life somewhere else, and they reflect on their
Speaker 3: home life or bring something back to you, and you're like,
Speaker 3: I wish you'd said something at the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well, hopefully come back to us and say
Speaker 4: thank you so much for well they're is a bit
Speaker 4: of that, obviously, but yeah.
Speaker 2: Just ever so briefly, when they realize that they have
Speaker 2: to do their own washing and cooking and cleaning up,
Speaker 2: and they are actually responsible for themselves, then there's a
Speaker 2: little bit of gratitude comes your way, doesn't it. I
Speaker 2: find negative criticism or constructive criticism or negative comment. I
Speaker 2: find they really only sting when there's an ounce of
Speaker 2: truth to it. Yeah, you know, so for me, it's
Speaker 2: about being able to go okay, oh that's just sitting
Speaker 2: with me. It's really niggling. I'm still thinking about that
Speaker 2: a few days later. And that is generally, if I'm
Speaker 2: really honest with myself, is because there's something there that
Speaker 2: maybe I.
Speaker 1: Don't really want to have to think about or face
Speaker 1: or deal with, but then actually it can be very
Speaker 1: useful to do so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that's the painful bit, right, And again,
Speaker 4: if we think about that idea of emotional regulation, that pain,
Speaker 4: that what we commonly think of is having touched a nerve,
Speaker 4: That pain can get in the way of us being
Speaker 4: able to think through what's actually being said to us,
Speaker 4: because actually there's a you know, criticism is easy to
Speaker 4: think of as a negative thing, but I often think
Speaker 4: about it as feedback, which can be positive or negative.
Speaker 4: And a lot of time that's where our growth in
Speaker 4: learning is, which isn't easy and isn't necessarily pain free.
Speaker 4: But like you say, I mean again that that's one
Speaker 4: of the sort of the big ways when I was
Speaker 4: thinking about this topic today, one of the big difficult
Speaker 4: bits is that actually, the more we can increase our
Speaker 4: own self awareness, the more we can be honest with
Speaker 4: ourselves about where our own weak spots are. You know,
Speaker 4: do we have a tendency to fly off the handle
Speaker 4: or you know, to get frustrated when we're tired, or
Speaker 4: do we have a tendency to get angry, or are
Speaker 4: we not very patient sometimes at the end of the
Speaker 4: day with our kids. Then actually that opens up the
Speaker 4: possibility of taking responsibility. I mean, I was like the
Speaker 4: way that AA or Alcoholics Anonymous put it, which is
Speaker 4: that actually we have to take care of our own
Speaker 4: side of the street. So it's a challenging idea, but
Speaker 4: I think a lot of times, particularly with people we
Speaker 4: like or respect, if they're saying something to us, the
Speaker 4: question we should be asking is are they right? What
Speaker 4: do I need to hear in this? What message can
Speaker 4: I take from what they're saying?
Speaker 2: Because if you're a parent who's dealing with what you
Speaker 2: might think a difficult a difficult phase with your children,
Speaker 2: or you're at work and you're not things aren't going
Speaker 2: great at work, and you know, you're not really interested
Speaker 2: in maybe what your boss or you know, someone seeing
Speaker 2: your has to say to you, it can be quite
Speaker 2: hard to stop and take that beat and take things
Speaker 2: on board.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think, you know, the professional environment's kind
Speaker 4: of a whole other category in and of itself, really,
Speaker 4: but I think that it's also okay with feedback to
Speaker 4: be able to say, particularly probably with family members more
Speaker 4: than a workplace. Actually, now is not the time I'm
Speaker 4: happy to talk about this. But actually I'm finding myself
Speaker 4: getting quite upset right now about this. Maybe we can
Speaker 4: come back to this. And so it's often useful when
Speaker 4: we think about giving feedback to strike when the iron's cold,
Speaker 4: as we say that the worst time to give someone
Speaker 4: feedback is when you're in the midst of the argument.
Speaker 4: No one takes feedback at that moment, but actually being
Speaker 4: able to then sit down calmly later, which is often
Speaker 4: the temptation then, of course, to avoid the topic and
Speaker 4: then actually take some time to talk it through then.
Speaker 1: But it actually doesn't.
Speaker 2: That doesn't that feed into other aspects of our lives
Speaker 2: and personal workplaces, like if you're pulled aside and someone
Speaker 2: has some comments to make about your performance and things, Actually,
Speaker 2: isn't it good to go Okay, that's really interesting? Can
Speaker 2: I go away and think about that? You know, you're
Speaker 2: immediately removing yourself from getting defensive or from getting angry,
Speaker 2: or from you know, getting upset. You can just give
Speaker 2: yourself an opportunity to walk away and think about it.
Speaker 2: I mean, it sort of works across the board, i'd imagine.
Speaker 4: I think so. And I think another great strategy is
Speaker 4: always sleep on it because that slows us down immediately.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Hopefully most of the time we wake up more regulated
Speaker 4: the next day than we were the night before. I
Speaker 4: think in the professional environment those categories still apply to
Speaker 4: by the way I mean, I think one of the
Speaker 4: big problems which a lot of people find their way
Speaker 4: into therapy because of is is what I would call
Speaker 4: the mean boss, right, So, you know, the bullying problem. So, yes,
Speaker 4: it can be hard to take feedback at work, particularly
Speaker 4: if it is critical. But actually a lot of times
Speaker 4: I think that bullying at work and struggling with someone
Speaker 4: who consistently takes their stuff out on employees is one
Speaker 4: of the things that often gets people into therapy because
Speaker 4: it can be really debilitating. So you know, when we
Speaker 4: think about taking responsibility and processing and regulating ourselves and
Speaker 4: doing all of those things, that's really important to say
Speaker 4: that actually, sometimes if we encounter someone as just being mean,
Speaker 4: we actually have to take action to protect our side.
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. I think that is where the
Speaker 3: buck stops, and that it's beyond your rational brain because
Speaker 3: I think that is where it just swirls around in
Speaker 3: your head so much and there is no and it's
Speaker 3: that fairness thing and all of those things. And I
Speaker 3: think we do have to recognize that there are occasional,
Speaker 3: definitely situations where you need to seek outside help. And
Speaker 3: you're also entitled to say stop. You know, you don't
Speaker 3: need to tell that person, but I tell yourself that
Speaker 3: there is that option of going to get professional help
Speaker 3: to work that through psychologically and physiologically, because it has
Speaker 3: impacts on everything that's really interesting to me, just something
Speaker 3: that's going on in my life at the moment, not
Speaker 3: me Persley, I'm not being bullied.
Speaker 2: And just on the side. Out of people that do
Speaker 2: come and get therapy, how many are coming for a
Speaker 2: personal problem or work problem or I just I don't
Speaker 2: know if you guys ever have a moment where you're
Speaker 2: able to kind of tally it up in a certain way.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean it's a tricky question in a way,
Speaker 4: because I guess the way that I look at anyone
Speaker 4: who lands in my office is they're there for a
Speaker 4: stated reason, right, which is what traditionally we kind of
Speaker 4: called the symptom quote. And then of course there's the
Speaker 4: background as to why that symptom has emerged. So often
Speaker 4: someone will arrive in therapy because they are struggling with
Speaker 4: something in the present day, but there's a story to
Speaker 4: that particular trigger or nerve that's been hit for them.
Speaker 4: And so again not minimizing the impact of bollying, but
Speaker 4: often people find that those dynamics that they experienced early
Speaker 4: in their family and their childhood show up in workplaces
Speaker 4: where they react to someone who's behaving badly but with
Speaker 4: the volume turned way up, and that's what throws them
Speaker 4: off course or lands them in my office.
Speaker 3: And that's what I liked about something you've said. I
Speaker 3: think is regardless of the responses you may have developed
Speaker 3: to this point, you're not locked into those behaviors. So
Speaker 3: that's talking about the patterns over our lifetime, the pat
Speaker 3: familial patterns, when you've gone out on your own, all
Speaker 3: of those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: As long as you recognize that that's a pattern.
Speaker 3: Well that's right, Yeah, I suppose. So how do we
Speaker 3: unlock ourselves from these from these habitual responses?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's where the really annoying therapist answer shows up,
Speaker 4: which it depends really, I mean, I think we have
Speaker 4: to make a judgment call for ourselves, right, how harmful
Speaker 4: and damaging is what's going on for us versus how
Speaker 4: willing and how capable are we have actually met managing
Speaker 4: our side of the street. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 4: think most of the times we know when bullying behavior
Speaker 4: is really egregious, but we can often look at tricky
Speaker 4: dynamics as opposed to bullying, or those people that we
Speaker 4: just find annoying in the.
Speaker 2: Office, even just a friend that always sort of has
Speaker 2: a backhanded compliment, or just you just wonder if it's
Speaker 2: a you know, yeah, as.
Speaker 4: An opportunity to learn, you know, that's the challenge and find,
Speaker 4: you know, being able to resource ourselves, whether that's talking
Speaker 4: to another friend or a family member or partner about
Speaker 4: how we can manage that. I mean think a lot
Speaker 4: of time it comes down to that again, that really
Speaker 4: boring idea of how do we maintain good boundaries and
Speaker 4: how do we firmly, calmly and compassionately stand up for ourselves,
Speaker 4: which might actually involve giving the person some feedback and
Speaker 4: response and saying, actually, I hear what you're saying, but
Speaker 4: actually when you say this, it's actually quite hurtful to me,
Speaker 4: or your timing is always bad or actually I'm okay
Speaker 4: with the fact that I do that. That sounds like
Speaker 4: your problem.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Did you write that, because I'm going to say to
Speaker 2: I'd just like to say firmly, calmly, and compassionately and
Speaker 2: dot dot dot dot dot.
Speaker 3: I love. I love adding the compassion in there. I'm
Speaker 3: just sort of thinking about the different types of people,
Speaker 3: the people who is just who you encounter and your
Speaker 3: work life and your every day life over the years,
Speaker 3: and some of them are people that you because I think,
Speaker 3: I mean not to go into any agrams, but I
Speaker 3: think I'm a challenger, and I don't know where I
Speaker 3: haven't actually analyzed where that's come from. And I know
Speaker 3: that if I can meet other people and go, why
Speaker 3: aren't you standing up for yourself? Not to me, by
Speaker 3: the way, why aren't you blah blah blah, or why
Speaker 3: have you put up with that? Or are you going
Speaker 3: to do something about that? And I always, I'm now
Speaker 3: as mature, thinking, well, obviously that's the way. Maybe that's
Speaker 3: kept peace in their life for them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, or actually that they were never taught or supported
Speaker 4: or you know that actually they experienced enough anxiety or
Speaker 4: fear provoking situations in their childhood that what you find
Speaker 4: quite naturally is he might be quite terrifying for them.
Speaker 4: So it does come back to that idea of compassion
Speaker 4: in the sense of being able to try and think
Speaker 4: it through from the other person's shoes. And then of
Speaker 4: course the opportunity to support people that we care about
Speaker 4: to do those things is great. I mean, I often
Speaker 4: think about it. People often experience me as quite direct,
Speaker 4: which is quite funny because I don't think of myself
Speaker 4: as direct. I just think of myself as honest. But
Speaker 4: actually it's important to remember sometimes that a lot of
Speaker 4: times we dance around the truth in life. I mean,
Speaker 4: I kind of think therapy is more a search for
Speaker 4: actually trying to figure out what's true than you know,
Speaker 4: what feeling good or feeling calm. That actually a lot
Speaker 4: of times we fall ourselves with little eyes and denials,
Speaker 4: and so sometimes the truth can be quite confronting, but
Speaker 4: ultimately it's the best way to find your way through
Speaker 4: these situations.
Speaker 2: I think, what is happening psychologically to our brains when
Speaker 2: we hold on to self critical thoughts or perceptions about ourselves.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's a big question. I mean, I think
Speaker 4: most of us have a critic of some description, and
Speaker 4: it's useful from the point of view that it's one
Speaker 4: of the ways that we motivate ourselves to get better.
Speaker 4: For me, it's about what sort of balance do we have,
Speaker 4: And I often think about this as a balance between
Speaker 4: the carrot and the stick, you know, so that old
Speaker 4: idea that we can you can get a donkey to
Speaker 4: move forward with a on a stick, or you can
Speaker 4: hit it with the stick, and most of us in
Speaker 4: our childhood, I think probably experienced a balance of those
Speaker 4: things positive warm encouragement and reward versus criticism and a
Speaker 4: kick up the bum metaphorically hopefully not literally. And so
Speaker 4: recognizing what is that balance within us, I think is
Speaker 4: often a good place to start, because when we talk
Speaker 4: about people who struggle with a self critics, that they
Speaker 4: don't have enough of the carrot. And so that's about
Speaker 4: then learning how do we warmly encourage ourselves and make
Speaker 4: sure that we're rewarding ourselves for the things that we
Speaker 4: do well as well as giving ourselves a bit of
Speaker 4: a push when we need to. And when you talk
Speaker 4: to people who have a really ingrained self critic, they're
Speaker 4: often frightened on some level that if they don't do that,
Speaker 4: then they won't do anything, because actually that motivation comes
Speaker 4: from that sense of get up, get moving, you know,
Speaker 4: get your ars into gear, because that's often been the
Speaker 4: voice that they've experienced in childhood.
Speaker 3: Oh man, I'm trying not to reflect on my parenting
Speaker 3: or how I was parented, because I don't think I
Speaker 3: had particularly either of those things. And that's not a
Speaker 3: criticism dad, as in I don't really recall. I think
Speaker 3: it's also generational thing. I think parents parented differently. They
Speaker 3: kind of let you get on with you well.
Speaker 4: Probably suggest without wanting to, you know, psycho analyzing on
Speaker 4: your podcast, that there's probably quite a good balance. If
Speaker 4: it feels like neither sort of jumps out at you,
Speaker 4: then I think that's probably quite a good balance.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, though, working out what you feel that your
Speaker 2: child might need in that moment as well, because I
Speaker 2: can remember coming off I think my son was about twelve.
Speaker 2: Week it came off the football field and I went
Speaker 2: great game, great and you know what I mean, it
Speaker 2: wasn't a great game. I didn't play well.
Speaker 1: He says, you do that all the time.
Speaker 2: I bring home a piece of art and you go, mum,
Speaker 2: you just go that's amazing and it's not. And I went, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: would you like me to be a little bit more honest,
Speaker 2: because yes, anyway, A couple of games later, pretty average game, sorry,
Speaker 2: young man, pretty average game. He came off and he said,
Speaker 2: oh gosh, and my partner said something positive and I went, oh, well,
Speaker 2: to be honest with that, second half really wasn't great.
Speaker 2: It just looked like you weren't paying a huge amount
Speaker 2: of attention. And I wasn't nasty, I wasn't mean. I
Speaker 2: just called it how it was, honestly. The kid just
Speaker 2: what We went, well, that's a bit mean. Why are
Speaker 2: you talking to me like that? That's not usually positive
Speaker 2: and encouraging, is that? And I said, well, two weeks
Speaker 2: ago you told me that everything I say which is positive,
Speaker 2: If everything is positive, then it can't be true. So
Speaker 2: I'm just giving you a bit of a home truth today.
Speaker 2: But would you like me to go back down? We
Speaker 2: went yes, please, Well I tried.
Speaker 3: I think that's really interesting because he was probably feeling
Speaker 3: a bit rubbish about himself when he came off the
Speaker 3: field that out of the time. Then you did the
Speaker 3: nice encouragement thing.
Speaker 1: He's like, you know what, don't need it today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was just a bad game.
Speaker 2: And then he came off thinking he played brilliantly and
Speaker 2: there's his mother guing and that was a bit average.
Speaker 4: It's funny that I've often heard my kids say, well, yes,
Speaker 4: I know you think I'm wonderful. It doesn't count coming
Speaker 4: from you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is that.
Speaker 4: That's the challenge.
Speaker 3: I need the world to endorse that somehow.
Speaker 2: So a bit of it's good to be self critical
Speaker 2: because it probably means you've got a little bit of
Speaker 2: self awareness to a good extent.
Speaker 3: And then I think I.
Speaker 2: Want it to be limiting you and knocking your confidence
Speaker 2: and stopping you doing things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when that tips out of balance, I think is
Speaker 4: what we can think of as the self critical problem.
Speaker 4: And then it's about recognizing that that drives our mood down.
Speaker 4: I mean, most people who experienced depression and will have
Speaker 4: it an absolutely outrageous self critic. Part of the challenge
Speaker 4: I think often is that when that self critic is
Speaker 4: really strong, and I mean often I have these conversations
Speaker 4: and therapy with people who experience depression, the problem is
Speaker 4: that they think that the criticism is one hundred percent true,
Speaker 4: not that it is a voice in their head telling
Speaker 4: them things about themselves based on how they feel, but
Speaker 4: it's just the truth. They are rubbish, they are no good,
Speaker 4: and they need to just try harder. So that's often
Speaker 4: really challenging if to do on your own. What we
Speaker 4: need when we have that kind of self critic is
Speaker 4: we actually need relationships around us with people who care
Speaker 4: about us and trust us that we trust that can
Speaker 4: start to give us feedback that contradicts that. And I
Speaker 4: think also often when it's really one entrench that's when
Speaker 4: therapy and medication is required to actually because it's mood driven, right,
Speaker 4: If we feel it that strongly, then our brain considers
Speaker 4: it our feelings to be facts.
Speaker 2: So it's coming back to that whole I might feel
Speaker 2: a certain way, I might think a certain way, but
Speaker 2: the reality could be quite different.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So it comes back to we get to the
Speaker 4: truth of the manner, right, which is that actually we
Speaker 4: might have a really distorted idea about our abilities, which
Speaker 4: can sometimes motivate us to try harder, but a lot
Speaker 4: of times we'll actually just drive our mood into the gutter.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what do you do about it.
Speaker 4: Then, well, medication and therapy is kind of If we
Speaker 4: genuinely believe those things to be true to the point
Speaker 4: where they cause depression, then medication lifts our mood. And interestingly,
Speaker 4: a lot of the antidepressants actually also enable our brain
Speaker 4: to be more flexible when it's learning. So then the
Speaker 4: therapy comes in and helps us to hopefully learn some
Speaker 4: different mental habits and some different ways of understanding our story.
Speaker 4: That shift that into it's not that I'm bad, it's
Speaker 4: that I have come to believe myself to be bad
Speaker 4: for a story that makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: Oh that makes me feel a bit sad. It makes
Speaker 3: me think of that line I can't read what movie
Speaker 3: is at the end of it. I think it's this
Speaker 3: some guy and he says, in life, I failed way
Speaker 3: more than I've succeeded, but blah blah blah. And I
Speaker 3: remember thinking, I remember watching, well, you've obviously had some
Speaker 3: really positive experiences in your life, you know like that.
Speaker 3: You think of entrepreneurs who fail more than they succeed
Speaker 3: and so forth, but they end up ultimately being successful.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, you really believe in yourself and that
Speaker 3: must make an enormous difference in people's lives, or do
Speaker 3: they just not know themselves. I don't know. I'm baffled.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, anything out of balance is a problem, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, if someone has an absolutely unbalanced positive idea
Speaker 4: about themselves, you know, they can end up doing all
Speaker 4: sorts of crazy things and self belief that they're always right.
Speaker 3: We might be thinking about the same, Pierce, And when you.
Speaker 4: Say that, yeah, that makes global headlines frequently.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the little things.
Speaker 2: In our guest to a psychotherapist, car McDonald talking about
Speaker 2: dealing with criticism and negative thoughts will be back after
Speaker 2: the break.
Speaker 3: Welcome back. You have given us so many great insights
Speaker 3: so far. I'm just curious, you know, can you explain
Speaker 3: to us. We hear the words negativity bias quite often.
Speaker 3: Can you explain to us what that is and how
Speaker 3: that impacts us?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's it's a really interesting idea. I mean, essentially,
Speaker 4: what the negativity bias suggests is that we on average
Speaker 4: as a species have a tendency to be slightly off
Speaker 4: center in terms of how we interpret the world. So
Speaker 4: there's been lots and lots and lots of studies done
Speaker 4: over the years. I mean One of the ones which
Speaker 4: is quite challenging is that people who experience depression tend
Speaker 4: to see the world more accurately, which is suggests that
Speaker 4: actually to be optimistic as a slight stage of delusion,
Speaker 4: which is kind of you know, challenging, but a little
Speaker 4: bit fun to play with as well when we already
Speaker 4: think about it. The negativity bias comes from essentially that
Speaker 4: idea that when it comes to survival as a species,
Speaker 4: we have over the millennia that we've evolved been better
Speaker 4: off to be slightly negative and slightly anxious as a
Speaker 4: way to avoid threat. And so the people who have
Speaker 4: a wildly optimistic idea about themselves and their own abilities
Speaker 4: are the ones who tend to fall off a cliff
Speaker 4: because they think they could climb it, or don't see
Speaker 4: fear in those situations, and so do the things that
Speaker 4: are frightening. Now. Obviously, you know, variation means that we
Speaker 4: still have people like that in our population, but that
Speaker 4: on average, over time, seeing the world slightly negatively and
Speaker 4: being slightly fearful is a pretty good survival strategy. The problem,
Speaker 4: of course now is that actually in a modern world,
Speaker 4: we are by and large, thankfully in a place like
Speaker 4: altet or largely safe and largely protected from threats. It
Speaker 4: means that our brain is looking for ways to understand
Speaker 4: that bias in ways that become self confirming. So even
Speaker 4: though we might have a happy life and be relatively safe,
Speaker 4: we can still find ourselves being really worried and negative
Speaker 4: about things that in the grand scheme of things. You know,
Speaker 4: it's the old first world problem, right, because our brain
Speaker 4: tends to look for those things because of the bias.
Speaker 1: All read somewhere recently wallowing is a privilege. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was quite good.
Speaker 3: You know that the sabertooth tiger is not actually at
Speaker 3: the front door. And I do get that, and I
Speaker 3: think I was probably wildly optimistic. And then a couple
Speaker 3: of things happened, including a breast cancer diagnosis, and I
Speaker 3: did fall off a cliff because I, you know, I
Speaker 3: in my head, you know, done all the right things
Speaker 3: to avoid that. And I do remember someone. And this
Speaker 3: is a good thing for people to remember. When they
Speaker 3: go for scans of various kinds of things. We're looking
Speaker 3: for something, we're looking for the absence of something or
Speaker 3: the inclusion of something. Going for a scan isn't a
Speaker 3: protective factor on its own it might be protective factor
Speaker 3: for discovering something early. Once I sort of got that
Speaker 3: through my head, I realized that actually all of the
Speaker 3: things that I'd done had probably saved my life in
Speaker 3: the end, just because you know, if they hadn't found something,
Speaker 3: or if they hadn't gone looking for something, we wouldn't
Speaker 3: have had a diagnosis and had a treatment plan. So
Speaker 3: you know, you can, you have. But that was with
Speaker 3: a lot of psychological help, by the way I came
Speaker 3: to that.
Speaker 4: Around to that, I mean, I think health is quite
Speaker 4: a good example often of that negativity bias, isn't it.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, optimistic to the point where and
Speaker 4: I mean, unfortunately, sadly, we often see this with blokes,
Speaker 4: you know, don't turn up to their GP until they've
Speaker 4: had a heart attack. At fifty I've literally never been
Speaker 4: to the Doctor've never had an injury. I'm fine, My
Speaker 4: health is completely fine. Actually, having a little bit of worry,
Speaker 4: enough worry to get us to the GP regularly, to
Speaker 4: have the checks to take the medication when it's prescribed,
Speaker 4: is actually quite beneficial keeps us alive.
Speaker 2: How do we deal with our children and our teenagers
Speaker 2: and in a general way.
Speaker 1: That's a whole other podcast series, isn't it No?
Speaker 2: When it comes to dealing with criticism, and you know,
Speaker 2: you mentioned it sort of struck a bit of a
Speaker 2: nerve with me at the very beginning when you said,
Speaker 2: you know, it could be quite difficult taking criticism from
Speaker 2: your children, and I have had to take a beat
Speaker 2: and walk away and think about it and go, actually,
Speaker 2: that's really interesting the comment you made, and that's how
Speaker 2: you see it, And I'm going to take that on board,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to listen to that, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to you know that that probably took about fifteen years
Speaker 2: of raising children before I finally kind of switched into that.
Speaker 1: So how do you know?
Speaker 2: And gosh, it's a difficult world out there these days
Speaker 2: with social media and being online and just still there's
Speaker 2: still nasty odd kid in the playground and things. How
Speaker 2: do you give our kids sort of positive and with
Speaker 2: a healthy confidence.
Speaker 4: Well, the foundation stones, of course, are making sure that
Speaker 4: we have taken the time and if we feel like
Speaker 4: we haven't taked the time now to build that relationship
Speaker 4: and connection, you just you can't fake that, and you
Speaker 4: can't I don't think you can do a lot of
Speaker 4: the things that are required to parent teenage as well
Speaker 4: without that. So if you know, in your own assessment
Speaker 4: of how is Mike, do I know what's going on
Speaker 4: in my kid's life? Am I connected? Am I having
Speaker 4: conversations with them as regular as they will sort of
Speaker 4: tolerate it. But also I think the trick with teenagers
Speaker 4: is recognizing those opportunities, you know, when they randomly show
Speaker 4: up in the lounge because screen times run out and
Speaker 4: they want to talk to you, and you're like, I'm
Speaker 4: so tired, this is the last thing I want to do,
Speaker 4: but actually taking that opportunity because they are precious when
Speaker 4: they happen, and recognizing the roundabout ways that kids will
Speaker 4: often ask for help too, whether it be you know,
Speaker 4: through their mood deteriorating or being in a bad mood
Speaker 4: or grumpy for a number of days. So we have
Speaker 4: to set that foundation stone and we have to create
Speaker 4: opportunities to stay connected. Often that starts young, So if
Speaker 4: you've got little kids and you're listening, that time in
Speaker 4: just is really it pays off later. So having said that,
Speaker 4: then I think it's about recognizing that actually it's our
Speaker 4: job as parents to still protect them from the world,
Speaker 4: even though you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds will
Speaker 4: act like they're completely fine and they don't need our help.
Speaker 4: It is our job to still coach and protect and
Speaker 4: that comes down to all those things that we talk
Speaker 4: about these days in terms of helping them manage screen time.
Speaker 4: I'm not a big fan of banning things because I
Speaker 4: think we lose the opportunity to learn. But it is
Speaker 4: our job as parents to make sure that we're on
Speaker 4: top of the technology, that we understand how to get
Speaker 4: devices out of their rooms or have them shut off
Speaker 4: after nine or ten o'clock, whatever it might be, so
Speaker 4: they have that downtime for their brain to relax, but
Speaker 4: also creating opportunities for family connection, because again we can't
Speaker 4: get around the fact that actually it's the old dinner
Speaker 4: table research. You know that it's really really clear that
Speaker 4: family who eat together on a regular basis tend to
Speaker 4: have better mental health across the board. So we have
Speaker 4: to make sure that as parents we're still working all
Speaker 4: the way through adolescents to keep our kids mentally balanced.
Speaker 3: And if they've left the nest and they're in way
Speaker 3: at university or away working or overseas, have you got
Speaker 3: is it a simple is there a question we can ask,
Speaker 3: is there a hack that will get an honest answer?
Speaker 3: Like is it as simple as how are you really?
Speaker 3: Or is there something else we should be looking for?
Speaker 3: Because I've definitely missed a couple of cues and gone, oh,
Speaker 3: I didn't know that was going on, you know, later on.
Speaker 4: I think that will just happen, right, And as I
Speaker 4: think again, there's an old famous quote by a British
Speaker 4: psychoanalyst called Donald Winnicott that says that when from the
Speaker 4: moment children are born, we're grieving their loss, because the
Speaker 4: whole process of parenting is that from you know, literally
Speaker 4: the moment they emerge, they're leaving us. And so some
Speaker 4: of that is tolerating the distance and recognizing they might
Speaker 4: choose not to tell us directly about things, and we
Speaker 4: can feel upset about that, but I don't think we
Speaker 4: necessarily need to feel bad or critical about that as parents,
Speaker 4: as long as we maintain that availability. And I sort
Speaker 4: of my rule of thumb with adolescence, and I think
Speaker 4: it'll probably be the same as they move into their twenties,
Speaker 4: is we want to be slightly on the side of annoying.
Speaker 4: So what I mean by is that our kids should
Speaker 4: be telling us to go away rather than not, because
Speaker 4: if they're telling us to go away, it means that
Speaker 4: we're actually providing slightly more than they need and they
Speaker 4: get to be in charge of how much they take.
Speaker 4: So you know, the daily text or you know, the
Speaker 4: phone call is oh you're calling again, mum. It's like, well,
Speaker 4: you probably about right if that's the response.
Speaker 2: That you're getting.
Speaker 1: Oh that makes me feel good too.
Speaker 3: By that, I do a bit of work at the
Speaker 3: university with Cure kids, and you know, look at their
Speaker 3: state of the childhood health and ah Rower and you
Speaker 3: know we've gone up from one in five young people
Speaker 3: reporting serious psychological distress to sorry one and five from
Speaker 3: one and twenty. So do you have any insights onto
Speaker 3: what's into what's going on there?
Speaker 4: Such a complicated question, isn't it? Because the thing that's
Speaker 4: really confusing I think with that research is that when
Speaker 4: you look at least as I understand it, correld me
Speaker 4: if I've got this wrong or if it's been updated.
Speaker 4: But it's also true that that gen Z and gen
Speaker 4: alpha are smoking less, they're using drugs less, they're drinking less,
Speaker 4: and starting drinking at a later age, their teenage pregnancies
Speaker 4: are down initiating sexual relationships as later. So it's kind
Speaker 4: of like they're doing all the right things.
Speaker 3: I don't mean to be facetious, but are they having
Speaker 3: enough done well?
Speaker 4: That's a really useful question, and I think one of
Speaker 4: the question that naturally comes out of that, which can
Speaker 4: easily skew into all sorts of unhelpful places, is our
Speaker 4: kids missing the opportunities to build resilience along the way.
Speaker 4: You know, it's not that our kids to shelter these days,
Speaker 4: because I think that that lands the blame on them,
Speaker 4: But is the one of the outcomes of a digital
Speaker 4: world and a world that is actually largely safe, meaning
Speaker 4: that they're not getting the scrapes and bumps and bruises
Speaker 4: that builds that resilience. I mean, I don't know, but
Speaker 4: it's interesting to think about, and I think it's interesting
Speaker 4: to think about if that is the case, how do
Speaker 4: we actually enable them to have enough challenge to build
Speaker 4: that resilience, which might mean getting feedback from that your
Speaker 4: second half is rubbish.
Speaker 2: Hey, Something else we wanted to touch on is there
Speaker 2: is stuff out there in the world which is outside
Speaker 2: of our control, which but you know, makes us feel
Speaker 2: very sad and sort of upset about and you know
Speaker 2: the world can actually feel a bit sort of relentlessly
Speaker 2: negative at the moment. How how can we best protect
Speaker 2: ourselves and you know, from that negativity in the world,
Speaker 2: not just completely switching off from you know, our own values, well, yes,
Speaker 2: but also just putting yourself in a bubble, taking yourself
Speaker 2: away in a room.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I always feel slightly conflicted when we say say
Speaker 4: this on air on news talks. They'd be the first
Speaker 4: thing you can just send the news off, because I
Speaker 4: think it is actually okay to be in a bubble.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: The reality is that in New Zealand there's not a
Speaker 4: huge amount that we can do, certainly individually but even
Speaker 4: at a national level, really to influence events. So I
Speaker 4: think it's about being able to recognize again, if we
Speaker 4: go back to those basics, you know, the sleeping and
Speaker 4: eating blah blah blah, our own mood and regulation will
Speaker 4: fluctuate day to day and week to week, and recognizing
Speaker 4: that some days we may have the capacity to engage
Speaker 4: in some days we may not, and it's okay on
Speaker 4: those days where we don't to actually just not and
Speaker 4: that might sometimes be a matter of days. It might
Speaker 4: sometimes be a matter of weeks if we've got a
Speaker 4: lot on our plate. So it is about bringing that
Speaker 4: horizon in and actually, if all we're doing is going
Speaker 4: to work and engaging with our own family and that's
Speaker 4: all we can cope with, don't be critical with yourself,
Speaker 4: that's okay. And to build inflexibility, So recognizing when we
Speaker 4: do have the capacity, it might be useful to engage
Speaker 4: a little bit more, particularly if the petrol prices are
Speaker 4: banging on the door or we're having to rebalance the
Speaker 4: budget because of reality. But I think it is okay
Speaker 4: to protect ourselves. And then I think the other thing
Speaker 4: is sort of figuring out in an honest way, whether
Speaker 4: you're the kind of person who benefits from more information
Speaker 4: or less. So I tend to be benefit from more information.
Speaker 4: I listen to podcasts, I try and stay abreast of
Speaker 4: what's happening in the world because it helps me feel
Speaker 4: like I'm in control of the things that I need
Speaker 4: to understand, like petrol prices, like how to balance the
Speaker 4: budget and all those things. But some people don't find that,
Speaker 4: And so being honest with ourselves about what's helpful and
Speaker 4: what isn't as opposed to what other people might tell
Speaker 4: us is helpful for us, or how we might feel,
Speaker 4: what we might get judged if we're not abreast of
Speaker 4: the latest tweet from Donald Trump, for instance.
Speaker 1: Yes, I like to be in it. You're quite good
Speaker 1: at stepping away and finding other things to listen to.
Speaker 3: You just sort of I have lately. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm a rabbit holeer, but but I yeah, I was
Speaker 3: on a run the other day actually, and started off
Speaker 3: with I can't even remember who it was anyway, something
Speaker 3: about all of what's going on in the world, and
Speaker 3: I was like, no, I need something brighter and listen
Speaker 3: to something completely great, you know, not vacuous. It was
Speaker 3: still interesting, and I just felt brighter and larger on
Speaker 3: my feet. Literally, I do notice. I think that's really
Speaker 3: interesting what you say about the picture prices, because I
Speaker 3: have a seventeen year old boy and he hasn't really
Speaker 3: kept his eye on the ball, and I haven't. We
Speaker 3: don't talk around about it around that very precious in
Speaker 3: a table time, and yet the picture prices have made
Speaker 3: them go what is this about the picture prices? And
Speaker 3: then they're investigating, and then they're going oh shit, there's
Speaker 3: a lot going on. But you know, I was sort
Speaker 3: of said, well, the picture prices are the last thing.
Speaker 3: You know. It's a terrible it's crappy and rubbish, and
Speaker 3: it's going to impact us, but there are people going
Speaker 3: through a lot worse. He's like, well, I know, I
Speaker 3: know now, but the picture prices are what prompt them
Speaker 3: to even never look. But you know, he's not going
Speaker 3: to start listening to podcasts about it.
Speaker 2: But if we've got a world which is a lot
Speaker 2: more divisive and polarized and negative, is that making us
Speaker 2: more critical and judgmental?
Speaker 4: Though I think there's quite a lot of evidence that
Speaker 4: over engaging in polarized debates unfortunately on social media, And
Speaker 4: this is one of my sort of bug bears about
Speaker 4: the so called youth social media debate is we should
Speaker 4: be having a general social media debate. It's very easy
Speaker 4: to point at the kids and say it's affecting them,
Speaker 4: but actually what I often say to Pearance is can
Speaker 4: you just sort of address your own phone news first?
Speaker 4: Because kids follow and recognizing that again, it comes back
Speaker 4: to that where we started from about compassion and recognizing
Speaker 4: that actually we probably all need to be better at
Speaker 4: engaging with people who see the world differently, and social
Speaker 4: media isn't going to help. I mean, I'm certainly not
Speaker 4: going to be blameless in this. I really struggle if
Speaker 4: someone has a really polarized different view than me. But
Speaker 4: I think the best thing that we can do is
Speaker 4: actually try and understand, whether that's in the conversation or
Speaker 4: try to understand from the point of view of thinking
Speaker 4: about why does this person see the world this way?
Speaker 4: What is it that is different for them from my circumstances,
Speaker 4: Because often the ability to you know, to have a
Speaker 4: view to understand the world is actually kind of a privilege.
Speaker 4: Most people are generally just worried about, you know, getting
Speaker 4: enough gas in the tank and you know, balancing the budget,
Speaker 4: and it's really understandable people are reactive about that because
Speaker 4: it is It's pretty tricky that the evidence is that
Speaker 4: anxiety is on the rise worldwide, which is not a surprise.
Speaker 4: But I think that again, coming back to our own
Speaker 4: side of the street, how do we actually then just
Speaker 4: deal with that in our own day to day life,
Speaker 4: And sometimes it might be helpful, you know. One of
Speaker 4: the strategies we often talk about with world events is
Speaker 4: finding a way to do something that means something to
Speaker 4: you to get engaged. So that might be going to
Speaker 4: a protest, it might be you know, joining a political
Speaker 4: party or of supporting particular causes. But actually it's also
Speaker 4: okay to not do that. So again it's figuring out
Speaker 4: what works for you.
Speaker 3: That is one hundred percent what I needed to hear.
Speaker 3: It's all right to not do that and not be
Speaker 3: judged for not doing that, and not even give you
Speaker 3: a reason why or why not, as long as you
Speaker 3: know absolutely what it is the choice that you're making.
Speaker 3: We had to ban my husband from social media because
Speaker 3: he used to comment. He used to get into those
Speaker 3: stupid you know, it's mostly Facebook about when drivers were
Speaker 3: criticizing cyclists or cyclists are criticizing drivers and need back
Speaker 3: and forward. He comment. I was like, I can't believe
Speaker 3: you're doing that. You're more intelligent than this. Why are
Speaker 3: you engaging in this. We're raising in the middle of
Speaker 3: raising our kids. For crying, Well, just really pusses me
Speaker 3: off when people get so upset about cycle ades, which
Speaker 3: all we on our bikes, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: you gotta let that go.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and as hard, isn't it Because that's the
Speaker 4: whole machine of social media. I think the challenge is
Speaker 4: recognizing that that is helping nobody and likely achieve.
Speaker 3: Yea because of the wrong kind of people to even
Speaker 3: have that debate with. And they have no power anyway.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sure you have, but you can put them
Speaker 4: at the research that says that arguing with people, he
Speaker 4: just reinforces their beliefs.
Speaker 3: Not that's long in the past.
Speaker 1: Card.
Speaker 2: I'd like to firmly, calmly, and compassionately, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for your time today. And you're very balanced, sensible
Speaker 2: views about things. Yeah, that was absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Thank you, my pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thanks Kyle.
Speaker 1: How lovely is Kyle?
Speaker 2: I loved the bit where he was describing the three
Speaker 2: different kinds of people that you might be faced with,
Speaker 2: who are you know, critiquing you or putting some negative
Speaker 2: thoughts in your head? And I love the way you
Speaker 2: went from, Hey, these people might be having a bad day,
Speaker 2: so let's be compassionate about them. So then you know
Speaker 2: they're a bit thoughtless, so a bit average too. Literally,
Speaker 2: they are mean, they're a bit of a dick.
Speaker 1: It's quite a but we do love it.
Speaker 3: Broad I do love a menu.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: No, it's given me kind of a something to go on.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of subtlety in it.
Speaker 2: It's not kind to say, it's kind of you can
Speaker 2: quite easily kind of just know that. I found that
Speaker 2: really interesting, and I just think it's just a reminder
Speaker 2: when you hear something and someone says something to you
Speaker 2: and you you can feel yourself bristle, you can feel
Speaker 2: it hit, you can feel it land, just to remember
Speaker 2: to take a breath, take a moment.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, just I mean, I was thinking, sometimes it's
Speaker 3: at the time, and sometimes it's at that two o'clock
Speaker 3: in the morning. We didn't discuss that, but that is
Speaker 3: but the same, the same antidote still applies. Breathe think
Speaker 3: about it, you know, and again sleep on it and
Speaker 3: deal with the morning. I was thinking, I didn't get
Speaker 3: to ask him, but is that old analogy? Don't go
Speaker 3: to be better? Angry thrown out because he was like,
Speaker 3: it's important to sleep on it. And I think I'll
Speaker 3: remember that next time I'm having a late night conversation
Speaker 3: with either a child or a partner.
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to sleep on that tonight.
Speaker 3: I'll feel better in the morning because of course, we
Speaker 3: always feel better after we're rested. I also liked later
Speaker 3: on in the piece were he was talking about sleep, diet,
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. I, hey, we've just done a pod
Speaker 3: We've just credited a podcasts on your blah blah blahs.
Speaker 2: But that's fine. We know that can be the point.
Speaker 2: But there is a lot of truth to that. And
Speaker 2: I think we would all say that we're a lot
Speaker 2: more that we can recognize when we might be a
Speaker 2: little bit more fragile or sensitive. If we stepped back
Speaker 2: and look at what was going on in our lives,
Speaker 2: you could probably go, oh, it's because of that, that
Speaker 2: that that, And I think that's good to remember give
Speaker 2: yourself a bit of grace kind of what.
Speaker 1: Am I going through? What's going on in life?
Speaker 2: But I also think I love the way he said,
Speaker 2: actually have a bit of negativity and a self critic
Speaker 2: isn't such a bad thing as long as it's balanced
Speaker 2: and you're open to contemplate and think about why you
Speaker 2: might feel that way and actually, can it be constructive?
Speaker 3: And because you know, maybe I'm just being mean, but
Speaker 3: some of the most ghastly people out there are the
Speaker 3: ones who cannot self reflect no never wrong or anything
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: Miserable, get them out of your life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: One thing I would like to just point out there though,
Speaker 3: that he did talk about this, and I think we
Speaker 3: need to remember this. If you are out there and
Speaker 3: you're feeling more sensitive than usual and you know yourself,
Speaker 3: therapy and or medication, you know those things are there.
Speaker 1: They're important.
Speaker 3: I know that they can be hard to access, and
Speaker 3: I know that they be on some people's means, but
Speaker 3: there's so many different ways. We've had a therapy EPSO
Speaker 3: where we talked about all the different things, including online resources.
Speaker 3: So you know, there is a difference between being able
Speaker 3: to work through rationally through negative feedback or just feeling
Speaker 3: a bit blah and then just overwhelming you.
Speaker 2: If you want more from Carla's website is Psychotherapy dot NZ.
Speaker 2: He has a book called Shit Happens, Lessons for dealing
Speaker 2: with Life's up and downs, and you can also catch
Speaker 2: them on The Nutters Club every Sunday night on Newstalk zb.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand held podcast
Speaker 2: series Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with
Speaker 2: the women in your life so we can all shake
Speaker 2: those negative thoughts.
Speaker 3: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 3: get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on
Speaker 3: other topics, head to inzid Herald dot co dot
Speaker 1: Z okatch you next time on the Little Things