1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Jinny Anderson Mark Mitchell wellis for this Politics Wednesday morning 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: to both of you, how are you? Good morning morning, Jenny, 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Good morning now a lot of really interesting things going 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: on here. First of all, quick question for you, Jinny, 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Should Debbie Narewa Paka be on holiday when parliament's on? 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know that. I just saw that actually 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: something this morning. So and she's And the problem you've got, 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 2: I'm guessing is it's for a personal reason. 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Isn't it's wedding anniversaries. 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: Wedding anniversary. Well, I don't think you have to give 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: exact we can ask for leave, so I don't think 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: you and your party gives you leave. So I don't 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: think you can specify what you can and can't have 14 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: leave for. As with a job, you're allowed to take 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: leave at certain times. 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: We've given how little parliament sits. Don't you have some 17 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: sort of obligation to kind of be present and look 18 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: like you might be interested in doing your job. 19 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: That immediately falls on your party and your whip to 20 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 2: determine when you need to be there, and they make 21 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: those calls, and of course you know you get picked 22 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: out by Mike Hoskins on zib if you make make 23 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: decisions that don't reflect well upon yourself. Decision, Yeah, what. 24 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: Do you think Mark? 25 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 3: I think you should be there on a sitting week. 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: But of course it's like any job. If you are 27 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 3: going to have family events, you are going to have 28 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 3: things that you want to be at, and you'll apply 29 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: for leave just like any other job. 30 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 4: But fundamentally, yes, I think that. 31 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: I think that people vote us and to represent them 32 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 3: and expect us to be there in doing that. 33 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: And what about the business of Mark protest? If you 34 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: go to another country as a politician, should you be 35 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: involved in a protest in that other country? 36 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: Uh? Well, I personally wouldn't do that if I was 37 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 3: if I was traveling on personal business, I would not 38 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 3: go and join a protest or interfere with You know 39 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 3: that the internal internal matters. But you know, Debbie has 40 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: obviously chosen to inject yourself into the situation that's up there. 41 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: What about you, Jenny? 42 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: It will kind of make your holiday, but stink when 43 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: you do. 44 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: You thinksy And you got the candles and we're set 45 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: to go and hang on, I'll just go to the protest. 46 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: Hang on, baby, It's just not something that I would do. 47 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: But look, different different things do it for different people. 48 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: So I'm not going to If she wants to go 49 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: and do that and she's not breaking the law, then. 50 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Well then the next question is and this is this 51 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: is an unanswerable question. But I'm aghast. So she said 52 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: on the news last night, and she clearly had no 53 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: understanding of Brown China the deal and so everyone assumed 54 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: in authority over there that she was there for the protest, 55 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: but she was claiming she hadn't heard and it didn't 56 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: know anything about it, which then Mark brings to the 57 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: question if you're an MP, how ignorant are you allowed 58 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: to be before you really shouldn't be an MP? 59 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 3: Well, I mean she should be engaged and basical issues 60 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 3: around that. I mean it's been discussed a lot around 61 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 3: I guess that maybe that's indicative not having been at 62 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: Parliament in Wellington, because these things obviously have been hotly discussed. 63 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean it just seems very unusual to 64 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 3: me that she'd injected herself into a process that she 65 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: didn't actually understand. It was very clear by her comments 66 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 3: that shouldn't actually understand what's going on? 67 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: Are they a ginny? Without naming names obviously, are there 68 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: people that ignorant like you? If I rounded up a 69 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: bunch of random MPs and just quizzed them generally about 70 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: life and times, they wouldn't have a clue what's going on? 71 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 4: Well, I think it's. 72 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: Probably yes, But you could do that with most human beings, 73 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: but they're not in that's well. I think generally most 74 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: imps have a higher understanding because you're in the beehive 75 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: and you're in the air, and you're in that sort 76 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: of bubble and yeah, but I think ministers, for example, 77 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: are interesting because they know really detailed information about their 78 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: own area. But sometimes if you quiz them for something 79 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: that's just slightly outside of the area, they have no idea. 80 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: So I think it depends on a person, and it 81 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: depends on their appetite for learning and taking in new information. 82 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: But this is what disappoints me as a voter and 83 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: a punter, is that I would have assumed your appetite 84 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: for information and knowledge and being inquisitive was a base 85 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: requirement for being a public official. 86 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: You would hope so, Mike, you would hope so. But 87 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: these are few in you who probably don't make that threshold. 88 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: Name a for you actually, I just I just I 89 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: agree with you completely, bloke. I think that it's incumbent 90 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: upon people that are representing their communities that they actually 91 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 3: have at least a basic understanding of what's going on 92 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 3: inside our own country, what's going on internetially, and how 93 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 3: that might impact them. 94 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: So listen, I just think that, yes, you should be. 95 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: I'd add to that that I should think. You've got 96 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: a roll and talking to people. So I was at 97 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: the Tony Fear all day over the weekend, and you 98 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: go on the round people, right, but when people come 99 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: and talk to you about an issue, you know, if 100 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 2: they've got some information. In this day and age, people 101 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: get information that's just wrong, like they've read something from 102 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: somewhere that's factually incorrect, and I I take it upon 103 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: myself to say, hey, you might want to check out 104 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 2: this source because the stuff you've got is from TikTok 105 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: or from somewhere that you might. 106 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: Go for you they end up hitting you. 107 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: Look some of them are that that happy. But we 108 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: probably weren't want to agree from the get go. 109 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 3: So surely surely you did the sect right at least. 110 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: Clearly you've never been to the. 111 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: How much is what are they selling. How much is 112 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: candy floss? 113 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, Tony Fear is celebrating. I think it's like it's 114 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: a biginn of thestory. You come next year, it's going 115 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: to be massive. But Tony rotary tuner on the whole 116 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: of Jackson Street gets shut down and it's an amazing thing. 117 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: I love. 118 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: I love Jackson Street. It's where o'riley's. You know o'riley's garage. Yes, 119 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 1: you ever go in there and look at the cars. 120 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: I've walked past that, but. 121 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 4: Look at the cars. 122 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: I'll try next time. After Mark the Roach report, two 123 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: part question, how do you explain that level of incompetent? 124 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: And two is that in some way part of the 125 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: problem you as a government of facing in making stuff 126 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: happen a bit faster than you would a bit slower 127 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: than you would like. 128 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: Well, it's inexcusable and ENLiGHT So Brian has said, it's 129 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 3: you know, it's really worrying and we can't have it 130 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: happen again in our country. And I think that I'm 131 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: just very thankful that he's in that position because he's 132 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 3: making sure that our public services held to account. 133 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 4: I do agree with them. 134 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: I work with our public servants every day and there 135 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: are some outstanding people and they're doing some incredible work 136 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: behind the scenes. 137 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 4: But we're all accountable and there has to be accountability. 138 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 4: You can't. 139 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: The problem that we've had is that more and more 140 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: money was thrown at things and there was actually you're 141 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 3: getting worse outcomes and the tech that's not tolerable for 142 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: us as a country and certainly not for expos. 143 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 4: Don't expect that, do they go? 144 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: Labor government Ginny have to carry some cap I mean 145 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: there's no shortage of people. I mean you stacked that 146 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: public service like it had never been stacked and look 147 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: at them, they're hopeless. 148 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: Well, it had been cleared out as it does always international, 149 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: so a lot of that was rebuilding. But I guess 150 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: my point would be with the Brian Roach stuff is 151 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: that if he's got a plan in some structure, I 152 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: think that's a real improvement because what we've seen under 153 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 2: this government is just cuts for the sake of cute. 154 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: But this wasn't This wasn't then, this was back by 155 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: the election. This is manare Maria leading into the election. 156 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: It's a reflection of the Labor government twenty twenty through 157 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. 158 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: AHFORR I thought you're talking about what ministry is good. 159 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: You go like Brian Roches, well, you know. 160 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: We can come to that if you like. But his 161 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: report looked at the just the hopelessness of what you 162 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 1: were running at the time, and how no one owns 163 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: a decision, wants to own a decision even when people 164 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: are going, excuse me, there's problems, no one wants to 165 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: hear it. How do you explain that. 166 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: Well, that's a real concern in terms of Manyell Murray 167 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: and what went on there. And I think there's some 168 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: big questions also for the Electoral Commission as to how 169 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: that MURI was able to function in that space as 170 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: being a place to vote. So yeah, I think there's 171 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: some big questions, not just for statistics and how the 172 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,679 Speaker 2: information was used, but also why was it a voting place? 173 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: But you guys were in charge ofment. 174 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: Well, there's been a full inquiry that the Electoral Commission 175 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: make those decisions, not the government. They go in and 176 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: say this is a place where people can vote, and 177 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: we are comfortable with the fact that it's a safe 178 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: place to vote, and we ask those questions that Select 179 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: Committee when we had the Electoral Commission before us and 180 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: they were pretty clear that they felt they hadn't done 181 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: as good as what they could have done, and I 182 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: think there needs to be more questions asked about when 183 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: determining a place to vote. 184 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: I reckon, there's a scandal brewing here. This is out. 185 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is you're in charge of it, Mark, 186 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: But it's operational. What happens when the copper who's looking 187 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: into the maria and where that information was used, If 188 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: it was used nefariously, how does that unfold? Did charges 189 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: simply get laid and it's another criminal case. If charges 190 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: are to be laid. 191 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, if they identify that the threshold has been reached, 192 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: I mean that is a decision for police. The police 193 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: are one of the agencies actively involved in this investigation 194 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: and inquiry, and they've stated publicly that they'll be looking 195 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: to see whether they or not in of those criminal thresholds. 196 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 4: Met I just I agree with you, Mike. 197 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: I think that you know, we have one of the best, strongest, 198 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: most transparent democracies in the world, and this comes to 199 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: a question of the integrity of that system when you 200 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: see this sort of stuff happening, and it's very serious. 201 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: That's going to be if they lay charges and those 202 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: charges are held up in court. That's something dodgy happened 203 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: at the Mariah. You've got a parliament that's made up 204 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: inappropriately of a person who a person who shouldn't be 205 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: there potentially, haven't you. 206 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: Well, it's more than that. It's actually the integrity of 207 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: your voting system. Because yes, it might be that one instance, 208 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: but it actually undermines people's confidence in our democracy. And 209 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: that's why it's incredibly important that people know they can 210 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: go to a place and vote and it's all above board, 211 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: and that's critical for New Zealand to engage people in voting. 212 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: What if it unfolds that way, what's the bigger crime, 213 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: the crime that the public service made appalling decisions or 214 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: that somebody have been the recipient of those appalling decisions 215 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: then took advantage of that. 216 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the both both are, but 217 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: one of the questions for me is why was the 218 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: public service making those decisions? 219 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 4: Why do they think they have the license to do that. 220 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 3: Anyone looking at it and applying some common sense of 221 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: fragmantism would see that they were atrocious decisions that shouldn't 222 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: have happened. 223 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 4: The second part. 224 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: Is, yes, who's taken advantage of them and who's been 225 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: the beneficiary of it, And so those are the two 226 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: big questions that need answer them. 227 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: Got the money, You guys appreciate it, Ginny Anderson, Mark Mitchell. 228 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: For more from The Mike Asking Breakfast, listen live to 229 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 230 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.