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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow

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Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about the gaming industry in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: There is an editorial in The Herald today pushing the

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Speaker 2: government for more support for this industry to better compete

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Speaker 2: internationally with some of the other gaming studios. On the

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Speaker 2: line right now is Duan Mutu. He is widely regarded

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Speaker 2: as one of the most influential people in the video

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Speaker 2: game industry here in New Zealand. He's an expert in

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Speaker 2: esports as well and is on the founding board of

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Speaker 2: the New Zealand Esports a Federation. He joins us on

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Speaker 2: the line now, Duan, very good afternoon to you.

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Speaker 3: You good to be on the show, and good afternoon.

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Speaker 4: What are some of the successes out of New Zealand

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Speaker 4: in terms of games.

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Speaker 5: Look, when we think about gaming, if we look at

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Speaker 5: the size of the sector, we think about globally, what

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Speaker 5: you're really chasing and saying that's close to three hundred

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Speaker 5: billion right now and that's meant to grow to in.

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Speaker 3: Twenty thirty two over five hundred billion.

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Speaker 5: If we look comparatively to how we're going as a

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Speaker 5: video game sector in New Zealand, and really that's that's

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Speaker 5: what we're talking about. We are growing and this year, look,

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Speaker 5: we achieved great results looking at closer to seven hundred

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Speaker 5: and fifty million and that will get to a billion.

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Speaker 5: But if you look at that in compared it to

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Speaker 5: the global stats, we are still way behind and there's

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Speaker 5: lots of reasons for that. So whilst it's a it's

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Speaker 5: a good story, we need support from the government to

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Speaker 5: really make it a great story.

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Speaker 4: So what are the games that are successful for us now?

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Speaker 4: Because there's there's Grower Garden, isn't there There's a few

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Speaker 4: others that have that have gone great.

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Speaker 3: We've had some great success stories.

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Speaker 5: We've got some great studios, I mean some of the

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Speaker 5: household studio names you know, grinding Gear games, Pickpock that

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Speaker 5: internationally renowned. And then also we've had, you know, a

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Speaker 5: game called Icarus that was number one in the world

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Speaker 5: on Steam, which is where you purchased most of the

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Speaker 5: games from. So the story of New Zealand and the

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Speaker 5: quality is there. But again when you look at us

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Speaker 5: from a you know, small market five million, we just

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Speaker 5: don't have this. What we need to push to push board,

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Speaker 5: and naturally the challenge when you look at other markets

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Speaker 5: like Australia and other sectors that are sorry other markets

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Speaker 5: around the world that are comparative in size and what

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Speaker 5: they're getting in the way of investment. So quality is there,

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Speaker 5: but the government haven't got behind it in the way

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Speaker 5: they need to, and that is where we're starting to

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Speaker 5: lose talent and opportunities to the other players.

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Speaker 2: Is that the big danger here dwe is that you

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Speaker 2: get the likes of grinding gear that you mentioned, and

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Speaker 2: rocket Works is another one, and there's a few other

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Speaker 2: big gaming studios here in New Zealand, not so big

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Speaker 2: on the international stage, but they've got that reputation that

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Speaker 2: they say, we can get a better deal in Australia

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Speaker 2: and we can attract more talent if we base ourselves off. Sure.

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Speaker 2: Is that the danger that we're facing right now.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely the danger.

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Speaker 5: So you know, going back a few years which I

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Speaker 5: was involved with this, I mean, we really pushed any

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Speaker 5: dealing government to sort of champion early and we were

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Speaker 5: advanced versus where Australian counterparts were and then we missed

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Speaker 5: the boat, you know, in my opinion, and then the

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Speaker 5: Australians came out and ultimately offered thirty percent rebate on tax,

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Speaker 5: plus each of the states also offer a rebate. So

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Speaker 5: what you're talking about is, you know, somewhere up to

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Speaker 5: potentially forty percent, and we've only just implemented our twenty

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Speaker 5: percent rebate here in New Zealand, right, so we're already behind.

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Speaker 5: And then you think about currency, you think about the

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Speaker 5: talent the pool to go to Australia anyway, and that's

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Speaker 5: our closest you know ally, that's our challenge and so

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Speaker 5: we need to have you know, more in the way

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Speaker 5: of government to support it. When you think about the

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Speaker 5: rebates versus our neighbors next door.

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Speaker 4: So we're in danger of whole successful key we gaming

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Speaker 4: companies just up upping sticks and moving their whole operations

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Speaker 4: to Australia.

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Speaker 3: We are and we've seen that.

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Speaker 5: To become really honest with you, we've seen that already

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Speaker 5: play out where some of the bigger students that I

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Speaker 5: don't want to speak on behalf of them specifically, you know,

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Speaker 5: by by name, but we're starting to see that where

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Speaker 5: you can you know, open up you know, a studio

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Speaker 5: or a party of student offshore and open up those

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Speaker 5: incentives and then if you look at what happening in Australia,

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Speaker 5: if you're if you're a young one coming through and

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Speaker 5: obviously we need more talent here in New Zealand, they're

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Speaker 5: looking and going well, actually, you know Australia because there's

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Speaker 5: more money there because they're offering these incentives, which obviously

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Speaker 5: goes back to the bottom line, and then the employees

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Speaker 5: they want to go offshore and then take up those opportunities.

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Speaker 5: It's not only the studios themselves, but it's actually the talent.

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Speaker 5: The New Zealand talent we have here. We can't retain them,

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Speaker 5: so we end up with a skills sortage.

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Speaker 3: And that's a challenge as well.

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Speaker 5: So it's not just as studios, it's actually the talent

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Speaker 5: that we're creating here in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: What are the opportunities when it comes to the gaming

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Speaker 2: industry and esports day and obviously you're heavily involved in

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Speaker 2: esports in New Zealand. Does that tie in with the

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Speaker 2: strength of our gaming industry. If we don't have a

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Speaker 2: strong industry here, then that becomes harder to attract those

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Speaker 2: big esport events.

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Speaker 3: Look, there's slightly different in regards to you know, what

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Speaker 3: they are.

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Speaker 5: In other words, you know, we look at studios, we're

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Speaker 5: creating games. And to your point, I've been around esports

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Speaker 5: a long time. As a sector within esports, I'd say

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Speaker 5: we're actually very strong because we have a national federation

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Speaker 5: which is actually globally renowned.

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Speaker 3: Because partners don't do that.

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Speaker 5: So I'd say we're actually advanced in the esports sector

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Speaker 5: and we should leverage some of that, I guess capability

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Speaker 5: and support that we get from the government. But you

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Speaker 5: see with the government, they look at that as a sport,

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Speaker 5: so it's a different funding vehicle versus studios which come

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Speaker 5: under rebates and much more like the film sector. So

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Speaker 5: whilst they're tied, i'd say they're slightly different because one

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Speaker 5: is fundamentally a sport and follows that trajectory. One is

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Speaker 5: more of a you know, a creative pursuit in a

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Speaker 5: business pursuit.

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Speaker 4: So, apart from rebates, what else could be done to

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Speaker 4: bost of this sector. Do we have strong domestic training

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Speaker 4: pathways into the gaming sector? Is it easy to get

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Speaker 4: skilled up in New Zealand so you can join a

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Speaker 4: major company or start a starter company and get amongst.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, look, what I'd say is I think one, if

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Speaker 5: you're out there, we have a various range of studios, right,

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Speaker 5: I think you know roughly we're not on I looked

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Speaker 5: at it.

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Speaker 3: We had sort of around sixty.

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Speaker 5: Studios themselves, but some of those studios are sixty plus studios,

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Speaker 5: but they are right the way to the big ones

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Speaker 5: we mentioned the top right through the sort of one

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Speaker 5: or two of us that want to develop games. The

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Speaker 5: great thing about developing games, and this is why should

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Speaker 5: be so strong at a governmental level, is most of

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Speaker 5: the revenue is offshore. So we look at ninety ninety

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Speaker 5: five percent of the revenue that's attracted for these games

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Speaker 5: comes from offshore markets.

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Speaker 3: So if you are at.

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Speaker 5: Home, you can code, you can create your own studio

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Speaker 5: by yourself and attract international international money, right like fundamental

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Speaker 5: And we know it's tough here. So we're talking about

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Speaker 5: instead of being landlocked to the country or the five

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Speaker 5: million people here, you actually open yourself up to this

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Speaker 5: global market. Most of those markets that are big, the US, Europe, Asia,

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Speaker 5: pacifics on our doorstep.

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Speaker 3: And so I'd say that's part of it.

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Speaker 5: So you could go out and become your own studio

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Speaker 5: or own business owner. I will say that we've really

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Speaker 5: developed in the last couple of years, growing the talent,

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Speaker 5: so that's exciting. We do see now some investment people

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Speaker 5: like CODE who are bringing through the young ones who

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Speaker 5: are really interest did in upskilling and game manufacturing development,

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Speaker 5: all those things that we need in the sector.

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Speaker 3: So I'd say in that regard, good, But what you

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Speaker 3: don't want to.

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Speaker 5: Do to my first point is get to a point

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Speaker 5: where all that talent is offshore and we can't grow

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Speaker 5: either as a standalone studio that wants to grow or

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Speaker 5: as a talent coming through. And then I think the

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Speaker 5: other thing that we have going for us is people

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Speaker 5: like us as people. You know Kiwi's, you know, we

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Speaker 5: have our indigenous storytelling, you know see Maori. We are

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Speaker 5: liked around the world. What we need from the governments

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Speaker 5: well is not just money. We need to make sure

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Speaker 5: that our studios are shown around the world. And so

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Speaker 5: I spent a lot of time in the Middle East.

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Speaker 5: That's the sort of the mecha of gaming at the moment,

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Speaker 5: and we need to make sure that we have trade

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Speaker 5: missions up there that don't just talk about agriculture and

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Speaker 5: our traditional fields. We want to be saying, look, we

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Speaker 5: have great studios, great talent, how can we.

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Speaker 3: Get into those markets?

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Speaker 5: And you know, part of the jouney I had a

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Speaker 5: month ago was actually doing that to make sure we

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Speaker 5: could open up some pathways for our studios and talent

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Speaker 5: so we can tell that story in those bigger markets.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, just to sort of bring this all together,

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Speaker 4: what specifically do you want to see the government do

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Speaker 4: around the gaming industry?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I think what we really want to do

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Speaker 5: is if we look at it, we want to make

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Speaker 5: sure that we want government support and incentives.

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Speaker 3: So we want to strengthen notse.

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Speaker 5: How do we get tax rebates, grants, subsidies for hiring,

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Speaker 5: so that's on shore. We want to make sure that

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Speaker 5: it's appealing for some of the big studios and talent

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Speaker 5: to want to make New Zealand a base and we're

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Speaker 5: seeing that with the movie sector. How do we attract

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Speaker 5: some of the household names and studios down here in

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Speaker 5: New Zealand. We want to make sure that we have

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Speaker 5: collaborations with the biggest publishers. I mean you would have

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Speaker 5: seen overnight the big news or the last couple of nights,

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Speaker 5: is that EA was acquired by the Saudias for fifty

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Speaker 5: five billion.

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Speaker 3: How do we strengthen both our pathway over there?

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Speaker 5: Ye have big, big, big money, and we want to

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Speaker 5: make sure that we have a focus of those trade

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Speaker 5: machines and international showcases where the government can take our

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Speaker 5: studios offshore into these markets which happen all over the

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Speaker 5: world to showcase not only the New Zealand Inning story,

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Speaker 5: but the New Zealand ink story in our game development sector.

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Speaker 2: Really good to get you on, Really appreciate your expertise

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Speaker 2: and we'll catch up with you very soon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much, Jean, great afternoon you too.

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Speaker 2: That is Dwan Mutu, head of New Zealand Esports and

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Speaker 2: heavily involved in the gaming industry.

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