1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Now to something else altogether. A university lecturer has fired 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: shots at the education system, claiming the number of tertiary 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: students who are functionally illiterate is at a crisis level. 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: As Sociate professor of Sociology at Canterbury University, Mike Grimshaw 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: believes that we're under educating and overqualifying and universities need 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: to return to being institutions for the elite rather than 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: degree factories and mics with us. 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: Now, hey, mikey, how are you very well? 9 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Thank you? Why do we have these people turning up, 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: presumably turning up at university being functionally illiterate? Why is 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: this happening? 12 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: I think it's a wider societal issue. It's a question 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: about how we value education. It's what's happening in NZEA, 14 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: It's the long effect of COVID, It's social media, and 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: it's also that push that we should have so many 16 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: people coming to university to gain a degree and yet 17 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: how many degree jobs are we actually creating at the 18 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 2: end of the education process. But also once they are 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: coming in, they are often underachieving for a whole host 20 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: of reasons, part because of what they have left school with, 21 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: partly because of what is happening within the university system, 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: but also also many of them are not really sure 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: why they're here, and so it's a wider societal issue. 24 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: I called it out because there's a lot of discussion 25 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: about this in the university, but I sort of feel 26 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: I'm like the boy who called out the imprison new 27 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: clothes because everyone knows this is happening, but nobody really 28 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: wants to talk. And this is unfortunately the power of LinkedIn. 29 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: I have put a LinkedIn post when gang Busters have 30 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: got picked up. It's out there, someday, it's all over 31 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: the media. There's been a deafening silence from within the 32 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: university itself, which is quite understandable because no one really 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: wants to have it mentioned that we are one end 34 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: of a problem. I mean, we are seeing the ones 35 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: who have succeeded in NCEA, so that makes us wonder 36 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: what is actually happening for those who haven't succeeded, And 37 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: that's a wider societal issue that there is all the 38 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: way back, I would say, down to primary school funding 39 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: of education and what we want in our education system 40 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: and how we view it as a society. 41 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: Mike, how many graduates are we pumping out every year. 42 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: I think from the University of New Zealand it's somewhere 43 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: around about forty five thou forty to forty thousand to 44 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 2: forty five thousand graduates a year. 45 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: How many of those do you believe are too many? 46 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: Well, we're pumping out forty to forty five thousand, ninety 47 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: five percent of them are undergraduate degrees. Are we creating 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: forty to four Are we creating that many jobs for 49 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: graduates in our society? And I would say the evidence 50 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: would seem to be that we are not. And if 51 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: we are, are we seeing the flow throughs in our 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: economy and our society and productivity, et cetera. And we're 53 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: not seeing it there? 54 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: So what do we do? I mean, Mike, the problem 55 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: is nowadays you need degrees for things that you did 56 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: for jobs that you didn't need degrees for few years ago. Right, 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: So my job graduated, became a journalist, you had you 58 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: basically had to have a degree, if not a post 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: grad for it. And if you graduated in the sixty 60 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: or if you left school in the sixties to become 61 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: a journalist, you didn't. So can we get around the 62 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: fact that that is an expectation from employers. 63 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: Now, well, I think it goes even further back. I 64 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: mean really, now, a three year degree will get you 65 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: the sort of job in many ways and a lot 66 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: of areas that university entrants would get you thirty forty years, That's. 67 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: What I'm saying. So, how many jobs do you reckon 68 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: we actually don't need degrees for, but our employers are 69 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: demanding it. 70 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: No, I'd say, well, it depends on the areas and 71 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: depends on what we want a degree for. Is a 72 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: degree just about education for a job? Will? We often 73 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: say that a degree is for a whole host of 74 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: other issues regarding civic responsibility, cultural outcomes, wider society or outcomes. 75 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: And so then the question is have we seen a 76 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: increase in those societal, cultural economic outcomes that we say 77 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: a degree provides given the exponential increase in those who 78 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: are going to university now, and again I would say 79 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: we're not. So that that raises a big question as 80 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: to well, what is what are we doing in the university, 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: but also what are we doing in our education system 82 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: before university? But also what are employers doing? Why do 83 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: they require a degree for jobs that often don't require 84 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: a degree. 85 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: So what's the downside of someone like me having a degree, 86 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: having having gone and spent three or four years at university. 87 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: What's the downside? 88 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: Well, there's no downside if you have come out of 89 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: that degree education with increased literacy, with increased thinking ability, 90 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: critical thinking, if you have expanded your cultural and social 91 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: and educational horizons. I'd say it's also been useful if 92 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: you've turned up to lectures. One of our big problems 93 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: is that we can now you can now not you 94 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: don't have to turn up to lectures, that lectures are recorded. Yeah, so, 95 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: and we have to make material available. And so I 96 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: think this we are create My colleague Joe Gilbert's written 97 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: about this as well, we're creating a society. The expectation 98 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: is that you don't have to turn up, you don't 99 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: have to do ex or y. I've had colleagues who 100 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: have said students are turning up saying do we have 101 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: to read a whole book? Lost? 102 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: It's lost? The essence of what a university or what 103 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: university is about, isn't it? 104 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: Well, we have and we're not really sure what education 105 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 2: is about or what or what education is for. We're 106 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: not sure what a university is for, and everyone's going 107 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: quiet because the Gluckman Review is on, and everyone's worried 108 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: about what the Gluckman Review is going to say about 109 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: the future of universities. And so we know internationally there 110 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: are issues. The same issues are occurring in the USA, 111 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: the same issues occurring in Australia. Across in Britain, we're 112 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: not really sure what the point of education from primary 113 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: school onwards is and that's a societal question and we 114 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: are seeing one end of it within the universities, but 115 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: we are seeing the ongoing issues of this right through 116 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: the school system. I think in Western culture, I. 117 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: Think you're onto something here, Mike, thank you very much 118 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: for talking us, sir as Mike Grimshaw, Associate Professor of Sociology, 119 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: Canterbury University. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen 120 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 121 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.