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Speaker 1: Our prisons are a recruiting ground for gangs. This is

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Speaker 1: according to a new report from the researcher doctor Jared Gilbert,

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Speaker 1: which found the top dog model of leadership and prisons

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Speaker 1: has now shifted and there are groups of gangs running

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Speaker 1: our prisons. Non gang members are put under pressure to

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Speaker 1: join the gangs because they obviously need protection, leading to

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Speaker 1: calls for greatest segregation amongst our prison population. Neil Beels

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Speaker 1: is the Corrections Deputy Director for Men's Prisons. Neil Good afternoon,

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Speaker 1: Good afternoon, Ryan. Is it true to say that gangs

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Speaker 1: are running our prisons?

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Speaker 2: No, it's not true, and I don't think that's what

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Speaker 2: the report says. The report says that they have an

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Speaker 2: assumed power in prison, and I think what is fair

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Speaker 2: and what I'll say first and foremost is this is

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Speaker 2: actually a very good report and very helpful to us.

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Speaker 2: What is fair to recognize is that power gangs do

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Speaker 2: hold some power in prisons because of the very nature

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Speaker 2: of the things that they do, the violence they perpetuate,

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Speaker 2: the risks that they run, the contraband that they organize

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Speaker 2: to bring in, etc. There's always been us it's been

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Speaker 2: the case for decades. It isn't anything new for us

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Speaker 2: in terms of dealing with that kind of behavior from gangs.

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Speaker 2: So what we are seeing is an increase, particularly by

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Speaker 2: some of the newer gangs. We're seeing an increase in

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Speaker 2: the violence perpetuated and also just the resources and the

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Speaker 2: money that they have to carry out some of their

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Speaker 2: criminal activities.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that requires, I mean for them to do that

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Speaker 1: because they're doing drugs on the inside. They've got cell

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Speaker 1: phones on the inside, We're seeing them doing the common cheers,

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Speaker 1: doing hackers. They've managed to film that, get the footage

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Speaker 1: out on the outside. You say they're not running the place,

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Speaker 1: but they're clearly running a mark.

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Speaker 2: They're not running a mark. Look, we have handfuls of

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Speaker 2: incidence in prisons all the time, right, that's the nature

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Speaker 2: of prisons. We deal with people who don't surprisingly just

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Speaker 2: start behaving themselves a minute they come through the door.

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Speaker 2: They want to carry on behaving in the way that

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Speaker 2: they do. We operate anywhere between thirty five and forty

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Speaker 2: percent of gang or gang members or gang affiliated people

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Speaker 2: in at any given time, we're currently operating in our

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Speaker 2: prison system that ten thousand, five hundred people ten thousand,

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Speaker 2: four hundred to five hundred people. That's an awful lot

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Speaker 2: of people. And when you look at the number of

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Speaker 2: incidents that we're dealing with, relatively few compared to what

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Speaker 2: we could be dealing with if we weren't doing the

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Speaker 2: things that we are doing very well, which again I

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Speaker 2: think is highlighted in the report here.

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Speaker 1: So what happens at the moment, What happens at the

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Speaker 1: moment with gang members in terms of segregation, like do

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Speaker 1: you segregate them so that the gang members who are

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Speaker 1: all in one gang are together, or do you segregate

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Speaker 1: the rival gang members from each other? How does it work?

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Speaker 2: No, we don't have gang only units. That's been proven

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Speaker 2: through research elsewhere and looking at overseas models that it's

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Speaker 2: just not a good model. What we tend to do

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Speaker 2: is we try and balance the power out within units.

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Speaker 2: So you might have a unit forraday mistake. You go

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Speaker 2: on to my old prison that I used to run

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Speaker 2: in Aubland. You know, you go in there, you might

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Speaker 2: see on any given landing two or three Mongol Mob,

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Speaker 2: two or three Black Power two or three tribesmen. And

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Speaker 2: then you try and keep that that that kind of

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Speaker 2: balance going. And as Jared reflects in his report. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of like the Cold War. You know, if there's

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Speaker 2: if there's a balance of power, then nobody can take control.

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Speaker 1: Always We're sorry, sorry, continue so that.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't always work. When when you are dealing with

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Speaker 2: the different security classifications, not all gang members will be

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Speaker 2: high security or maximum security. There will be some in

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Speaker 2: the lower security echelons as well. You've also then got

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Speaker 2: to think of those who are voluntarily segregated, that they

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Speaker 2: may be under threat because of the type of offense

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Speaker 2: that they've committed. There may be in depth of the

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Speaker 2: gang members, there may be in fear of the gang members.

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Speaker 2: So the the kind of the ecosystem that we deal

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Speaker 2: with is not as simplistic and as easy as what

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Speaker 2: some people may think it is. If you know, if

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Speaker 2: you just lock them up, then you've solved the problem.

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Speaker 2: You haven't solved the problem. You're just you're probably just

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Speaker 2: ignoring the problem is if all you're doing is operating

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Speaker 2: a containment of peration, because that will have a time

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Speaker 2: and of it, and eventually you will be dealing with

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Speaker 2: other issues as well.

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Speaker 1: The sad part about all this is the civilians, or

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Speaker 1: what they call the neutrals, or in this report, they

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Speaker 1: called sometimes peasants or bundies. These are just people who

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Speaker 1: aren't members of gangs and the bottom of the food chain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and again. You know that that's a

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Speaker 2: sad nature of prison, right, you know, you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: criminal elements in prison, people and people who will take

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Speaker 2: advantage of those deemed to be more vulnerable or weaker

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Speaker 2: than others. And that's exactly what we see gangs doing

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Speaker 2: on the outside. Do you do they do this in

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Speaker 2: the communities they come from.

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Speaker 1: Do you do drug testing? How many of our prison

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Speaker 1: population are on drugs?

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Speaker 2: We do do drug testing. We do it for various reasons.

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Speaker 2: So we have random drug testing operations going on, so

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Speaker 2: we can you know, we can literally just press a

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Speaker 2: button on a machine and all tell us to go

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Speaker 2: and and randomly drug test a percentage of our population

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Speaker 2: at any given time. And that's what gives us our percentage.

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Speaker 2: I'll get I'll get our team to send those figures

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Speaker 2: onto your if you is it hard to do? No,

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Speaker 2: it's come down a lot, and we see it flot

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Speaker 2: you eight. It's come down a little bit over over

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Speaker 2: recent years, but we have seen peaks, particularly when we

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Speaker 2: see if you look at the Matthews. Last year, it

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Speaker 2: was reported Matthews in New Zealand. I'm not talking about prisons.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about New Zealands in general. Matthews doubled last year.

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Speaker 2: So what you see prison prisons are a microcosm of society.

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Speaker 2: So what happens on the outside happens on the inside only.

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Speaker 1: But the point is you're in prison. You're not meant

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Speaker 1: to be able to get your hands on meath right.

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Speaker 2: So well clearly and you're not. You're also not supposed

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Speaker 2: to be violent against other people, and you're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to intimidate other people. But these are criminal elements of

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Speaker 2: our society and they will do whatever they need to do.

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Speaker 2: So Ryan, imagine you're an officer and you get offered

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars to bring a cell phone in. That

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Speaker 2: is what our staff are dealing with now. I mean

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Speaker 2: the common cerios and mongols have got incredible resources. I was,

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Speaker 2: I've been at rim attack of prison. You talk to

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Speaker 2: the talk to the general manager room at a prison.

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Speaker 2: He will tell you these are the challenges that his

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Speaker 2: officer say.

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Speaker 1: How do you stop how do you stop them accepting

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Speaker 1: the money?

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Speaker 2: Well, it all comes down to good selection, good training,

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Speaker 2: and as Jared points out in his report, you know,

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Speaker 2: we need to make sure that we are learning and

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Speaker 2: have a we need to have an environment where staffield

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Speaker 2: that can come safely and tell us, look, I've being

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Speaker 2: approached by these people. This spble to do and the

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Speaker 2: vast majority do. Let's make no jokes about this. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of our staff will stand up against

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Speaker 2: this report it We will deal with it, but it

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Speaker 2: is incessant. You know, the gangs are pervasive. They have

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Speaker 2: a deep reach in our communities, they have a deep

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Speaker 2: reach in our prisons. It's a reality that we deal

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Speaker 2: with every single day.

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Speaker 1: Right Neil, Neil. We have to leave it here, Neil,

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Speaker 1: but I appreciate you coming on the program. A fascinating

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Speaker 1: report to have a read of. You can find it

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Speaker 1: on the HEROLD website. Actually, Neil Bill's who's been with

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Speaker 1: us from Corrections. He's the Correction's Deputy Commissioner for men's prisons.

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Speaker 1: Time is sixteen after four. The number is nine to

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Speaker 1: nine two. Would love to get your ticks on this.

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Speaker 1: Darcy Waldegrave here nix with Small for more from Hither

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Speaker 1: Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to News Talk SETB from

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Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio