Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I thought i'd let you know right up
Speaker 1: the top that I'm on the autism spectrum. And I
Speaker 1: tell you that for one reason to brag.
Speaker 2: That's the voice of comedian Abbie Howse. She's a regular
Speaker 2: on seven Days.
Speaker 3: I reckon, I could withstand torture. How would we give
Speaker 3: you to talk?
Speaker 4: Probably making me do small talk with people I don't
Speaker 4: know very well?
Speaker 2: A fan favorite on Taskmaster, Abbie, Yes, what did you
Speaker 2: bring it?
Speaker 4: I brought in my autism assessment sheet.
Speaker 2: And the sweetest, loveliest person you'll ever meet, and Abbie
Speaker 2: is proudly autistic.
Speaker 1: When I found out, I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: everyone is going to be so surprised I have autism.
Speaker 3: Who knew?
Speaker 1: And the answer is everyone everyone knew.
Speaker 2: But not everyone did know because Abby, like many autistic people,
Speaker 2: had been masking for most of her life. Gelda, I'm
Speaker 2: Sonya Gray and this is no such thing as normal.
Speaker 2: Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world
Speaker 2: of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is
Speaker 2: neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD.
Speaker 2: In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many
Speaker 2: wonderful people who experience the.
Speaker 3: World in a unique way.
Speaker 2: We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. In this episode,
Speaker 2: we're looking at one aspect of the autism experience, masking,
Speaker 2: or changing your behavior to come across as normal.
Speaker 3: We all do it to.
Speaker 2: Some degree, but many people on the autism spectrum have
Speaker 2: the mask up full time. That makes daily life exhausting
Speaker 2: because it involves practice and vigilance and effort and ignoring
Speaker 2: their own needs. But now many like Abbie Howe's, are
Speaker 2: exploring whether life.
Speaker 3: Can be done without the mask.
Speaker 2: How young were you when you kind of went there's
Speaker 2: something different about me.
Speaker 3: I'm not like other kids.
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I feel like I kind of always have
Speaker 4: felt that way. It feels feel like I'm kind of
Speaker 4: from a different planet, or like I'm a person operated
Speaker 4: by a robot inside. It's like a little robot in there.
Speaker 4: That's like learning how to be a human a little bit.
Speaker 2: That's like, that's how it feels, and Abbies had to
Speaker 2: learn the nuances of social interaction.
Speaker 3: Some that comes naturally to other people.
Speaker 4: I'm like locking away information like oh yes, yes, that's
Speaker 4: how you have a conversation.
Speaker 2: Notices I remember that for next time you are on
Speaker 2: shows like Taskmaster, which are amazing and fun, but I
Speaker 2: imagine quite growling and when you autistic and you have
Speaker 2: sensory stuff going on, Patty you cope with that kind
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 4: It is kind of hard, yeah, because it's like really
Speaker 4: bright lights. They also pump music really loud as well
Speaker 4: when you walk out to make you seem cool, and
Speaker 4: it does feel cool, but it's also like ah, and yeah,
Speaker 4: they're exhausting, Like I love the tapings of stuff like
Speaker 4: Seven Days and Taskmaster, but like they bleed me dry.
Speaker 4: It's exhausting to do it. And also it's like I
Speaker 4: feel like I'm a duck in the water. Like maybe
Speaker 4: on the outside it look like I know what I'm doing,
Speaker 4: I know how to talk to people, but it's like this, like,
Speaker 4: oh god, this person has said something, so maybe that
Speaker 4: means I can come in because it's a it's a
Speaker 4: give and take.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that's what I don't because you see
Speaker 2: social situations you find hard, like when do I come in?
Speaker 2: And that's like a social situation on steroids top.
Speaker 4: Me like it is it is you have to talk
Speaker 4: two people in front of cameras and just know.
Speaker 2: When being really said something, so maybe I could say, oh,
Speaker 2: I've missed my bit, I've missed my opportunity, like that
Speaker 2: must be so hot.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I had a bit of a wobble in the
Speaker 4: studio of Taskmaster because the other four contestants amazing. They
Speaker 4: were so good in the studio and they were like
Speaker 4: and then someone would say something and then they'd like
Speaker 4: have a perfect little quip, and I was like, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, these people are They're incredible.
Speaker 3: I can't measure up to that.
Speaker 4: But then eventually I realized, like, oh, maybe I don't
Speaker 4: say as much, but what I do say really cuts
Speaker 4: through and is of kind of a different energy to
Speaker 4: everyone else. So that's kind of the best thing I
Speaker 4: can do in those situations. Is actually because I actually
Speaker 4: talked about it with my therapist, because I had one
Speaker 4: seven days where I was like, I don't think I
Speaker 4: was very good, and I got the negative voices in
Speaker 4: my head, like as soon as I walked out, I
Speaker 4: was like, everyone hates you. They're gutted that you're on
Speaker 4: the show. They hate you. And so we started to
Speaker 4: call those voices the viper. So it's like, oh, the
Speaker 4: vipers come out again, and said the negative voices, but
Speaker 4: she yeah, she was like, the best thing you can
Speaker 4: do in those moments is not play the same game
Speaker 4: as everyone else because you can't. So you've got to
Speaker 4: invent your own game. Yeah, but they also can't play
Speaker 4: your game.
Speaker 3: They can't play my game. Yeah. Yeah. That's when things
Speaker 3: locked in for me.
Speaker 4: Was when because like, for a while, I was like,
Speaker 4: I've got to try to be like all these other
Speaker 4: comedians and do joki jokes and like great observations on
Speaker 4: life that everyone can relate to. And then eventually I realized, like, hm,
Speaker 4: your observations on life are a little off kilter from
Speaker 4: everyone else. Does everyone experience this and prove like no,
Speaker 4: last not.
Speaker 2: The thing is, in many cases we are experiencing life
Speaker 2: like that, we just don't realize it. Emmie has a
Speaker 2: really clear way of shining a light on the ridiculousness
Speaker 2: of many of our social norms. We're laughing because she's funny,
Speaker 2: but we're also laughing at ourselves.
Speaker 3: And so what next? What does the future hold? I
Speaker 3: really want to get a haircut. That's probably the move.
Speaker 3: It's gone off, laughy.
Speaker 2: The reason I was excited about interviewing you is I
Speaker 2: am fascinated by comedians because I have no idea why
Speaker 2: you would do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it. It must be terrifying. It is.
Speaker 2: I would rather eat cold, sick stand up in front
Speaker 2: of an audience who paid money for me to make
Speaker 2: them laugh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, nis sure, I know.
Speaker 4: It's quite psycholic to do, I think, And it is hard,
Speaker 4: Like you're kind of putting yourself out there to be like,
Speaker 4: you know, you're naked.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like you're so naked and then and it's.
Speaker 2: Like you want people to laugh at the naked you
Speaker 2: years totally you're giving people such a gift like laughter.
Speaker 2: Is there anything we need more right now than laughter?
Speaker 2: And like you're putting yourself out there to make people happy. Oh,
Speaker 2: that's very kind of you to say. Oh it's true.
Speaker 2: I think it's wonderful and that's a gift.
Speaker 4: But like the highs, like when it goes well, when
Speaker 4: you are like in total command of the room and
Speaker 4: everyone's going with here on everything.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the high that you're tasting.
Speaker 4: Like once you get there, it's like I want to
Speaker 4: keep getting that all the time.
Speaker 2: You were diagnosed three years ago, Yes, I mean, new
Speaker 2: kid on the block. Are you Afreshie. How has having
Speaker 2: the diagnosis the official thing changed your life?
Speaker 4: Hmmm, well, I think the main thing would be I'm
Speaker 4: a lot kinder to myself than I used to be
Speaker 4: before I knew.
Speaker 3: I was like, what's wrong with you? You freak? Like
Speaker 3: why can't you just talk to people?
Speaker 4: It's so easy for everyone else, and you come out
Speaker 4: with some absolute clangers, mate, and it seems effortless for them.
Speaker 4: And I used to beerate myself, like not wanting to
Speaker 4: go to parties and be.
Speaker 3: Like, what's wrong with you? Dinger?
Speaker 4: And then I found out that, yeah, I was on
Speaker 4: this spectrum, and then suddenly I think it's I think
Speaker 4: for me, my diagnosis is like being autistic is like
Speaker 4: it's not a good thing necessarily, it's not a bad
Speaker 4: thing necessarily.
Speaker 3: It's neutral.
Speaker 4: So I think just recognizing that im I'm coming at
Speaker 4: things from a different way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2: A process kind of trusting yourself and trusting that you
Speaker 2: as your authentic self is okay.
Speaker 4: Yes, it feels at the moment, I like that authentic
Speaker 4: self like peeks out sometimes mostly it's kind of here,
Speaker 4: but I'm feeling more and more kind of coming out
Speaker 4: of a mold coming out of the hole a little bit.
Speaker 3: The mule's coming out of the whole little bit more
Speaker 3: like that's awesome.
Speaker 2: And you know, the more you practice it anything, the
Speaker 2: bitter you get. So the more that that mold comes
Speaker 2: out of the hole, the more the mob will feel
Speaker 2: comfortable coming out of the hole. I think one of
Speaker 2: the reasons it's scary for people that have masked their
Speaker 2: whole lives. And everyone masks to some degree. I have to,
Speaker 2: and you have to do just to get by in
Speaker 2: the world. But seriously, like head the shield up, is
Speaker 2: that actually revealing who you are? And the terror of
Speaker 2: people not liking who you authentically are is so bad.
Speaker 2: Like if they don't like the masked you, that's somehow easier,
Speaker 2: does it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to not mask as much. I'm trying to
Speaker 4: like keep my facial expression. I used to add like
Speaker 4: a lot of facial expressions, and now I.
Speaker 2: Was like, well I have to, so you're adding the
Speaker 2: facial expressions was for other people, I think.
Speaker 3: So I think I was like, this is how this
Speaker 3: is how a prison is.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so I feel I've noticed that I've been
Speaker 4: doing that less. I've noticed that I'm a bit more
Speaker 4: like neutral in the face.
Speaker 2: I intervied a girl who used to practice her facial
Speaker 2: expressions in the mirror before school.
Speaker 3: Did you ever do anything like that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and practice like oh, people are going to probably
Speaker 4: ask you how you are so oh. Practice was like
Speaker 4: a really normal response to there. There's like the perfect
Speaker 4: level of vulnerability because you can't just so good.
Speaker 3: You've got to say, well, you know, this build is
Speaker 3: also going on.
Speaker 4: And then if I follow up question, yeah, anticipate the
Speaker 4: follow up question.
Speaker 3: I still do this actually, yeah. It just makes me
Speaker 3: really sad. What about stuff like eye contact? Are you okay?
Speaker 3: I'm not. Yeah. I struggle with it a little bit here.
Speaker 3: Now I can't okay, I'm not that good. I just
Speaker 3: feel like I'm doing it wrong all the time.
Speaker 4: It's definitely something I have to think about consciously of
Speaker 4: what is a normal amount. I'm kind of thinking about
Speaker 4: it quite a lot when I'm doing it, like it
Speaker 4: would come naturally to someone else. But I have to think,
Speaker 4: now it's a normal time to look up, and now
Speaker 4: I've given myself a few seconds so you can look
Speaker 4: away for.
Speaker 3: A little bit. And I don't know I'm having her thoughts.
Speaker 4: But now I've got to come back to you, so
Speaker 4: I'm kind of manually doing eye contact.
Speaker 2: The Dictionary definition of masking is the act of concealing
Speaker 2: the existence of something by obstructing the view of it.
Speaker 2: When we're talking about human behavior, there's something you're concealing
Speaker 2: is how you really feel, and masking is something we
Speaker 2: all do in certain situations we need to to fit in.
Speaker 5: I mean, who doesn't want to feel like they're accepted
Speaker 5: and they're liked and that you know, you're a popular person.
Speaker 2: That's Sarah Watson, a clinical psychologist who works with many
Speaker 2: young autistic people.
Speaker 5: We hold these things in high esteem in our society,
Speaker 5: so they're all really big motivators tu much.
Speaker 2: For most of us, masking is an automatic response. We
Speaker 2: tweak our natural behavior to fit the situation. We might
Speaker 2: be a little bit more polite than usual, or we
Speaker 2: might pretend to be interested when we are really really not.
Speaker 2: But for many autistic people, masking is something that takes
Speaker 2: thought and effort and a lot of practice.
Speaker 5: It needs to be a conscious, deliberate process.
Speaker 2: And that's where the exhaustion comes in when you're having
Speaker 2: to do it for a full day.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and also because it means you've got to think
Speaker 5: about what your face is doing, what your eyes are doing,
Speaker 5: what your posture is doing, what your tone is doing,
Speaker 5: how you're communicating, like the content of your speech, and
Speaker 5: on and on it goes. Masking can be absolutely exhausting,
Speaker 5: and it can get to the point where you can
Speaker 5: burn out because it is just the exhaustion level from
Speaker 5: having to do it day in, day out, day in
Speaker 5: day out, week, month, year after year. But there's also
Speaker 5: those that the mask that they take on is very
Speaker 5: dissimilar to who they actually are. So when there is
Speaker 5: a significant we call it incongruence in the biz, where
Speaker 5: there's like that difference between who I am being on
Speaker 5: the outside versus who I am on the inside, then
Speaker 5: you can get a sense of I'm not good enough
Speaker 5: either way. And when you have that, then your exterior
Speaker 5: is kind of like, oh, I'm this, but nobody really
Speaker 5: fully accepts that. But then when you're unmasked and I
Speaker 5: am this and you also feel like nobody really accepts that,
Speaker 5: then you're in this really horrible double bind where you
Speaker 5: don't necessarily know who you are.
Speaker 2: And if you've lived your whole life masking, it's quite
Speaker 2: hard to take that mask off, isn't it?
Speaker 5: One hundred and then when and where and how and
Speaker 5: for whom? And then also it can lead to some
Speaker 5: really complicated feelings about yourself and your own identity, like
Speaker 5: questions like who am I? Is this really me? Why
Speaker 5: do I have to do this right to be able
Speaker 5: to almost pass as neurotypical rather than just being able
Speaker 5: to be me?
Speaker 2: Do you think that society has set things up? There's
Speaker 2: this band quite narrow band of normal and you know,
Speaker 2: we're here all the time. Oh, be yourself and difference
Speaker 2: is great, but it doesn't necessarily play out like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we love difference, but it kind of feels like there's
Speaker 2: a societal norm that no one really is living up to,
Speaker 2: especially neurodivergent people men and neurodivegent people.
Speaker 5: One hundred percent.
Speaker 2: It's hard to think that so many people spend their
Speaker 2: lives desperately trying to fit in, but psychologist Sarah Watson
Speaker 2: says it's changing. We're having more open, honest, public conversations
Speaker 2: and that has a profound effect. Especially if you've always
Speaker 2: thought you with a problem.
Speaker 5: Then it's kind of like a oh my gosh, this
Speaker 5: is a thing. You know, it's a thing that other
Speaker 5: people experience, like I'm not alone. There's so much validation,
Speaker 5: which we call normalizing, which is ironic because you realize
Speaker 5: that you're you're not alone with it, and it's a
Speaker 5: way of kind of coping perhaps with that disconnect between
Speaker 5: what is expected and who.
Speaker 3: I am that we all do.
Speaker 5: But when you're neurodivergent, the demands are so much more
Speaker 5: because it has to be so intentional, right, you don't
Speaker 5: have that automatic part that's just doing it for you
Speaker 5: when somebody is neurotypical, that it's actually just all happens automatically, right,
Speaker 5: that adjustment. Yes, when you say that to some people
Speaker 5: who are autosticor neurodivigent, it blows their mind because they've
Speaker 5: always had to work at it and assume that everybody
Speaker 5: has to work at.
Speaker 2: It, right, So they're walking around going everyone else is
Speaker 2: really good at playing this game, and I'm failing.
Speaker 3: It's just me. It's defective.
Speaker 5: I'm not good enough. I hope that our sense of
Speaker 5: what is normal is now broadening, right, But it can
Speaker 5: only do that with things like this podcast, because what
Speaker 5: that's doing is shining a light on we can be
Speaker 5: different and it not be less right and what is
Speaker 5: normal at the end of the day. Unfortunately, we do
Speaker 5: have a social concept around what it is, and we
Speaker 5: have we even have statistically, we have population norms, for example,
Speaker 5: which tells us what's typical and what's not typical. So
Speaker 5: there's a lot that leans into that concept of what
Speaker 5: is the average, what is the norm? Which potentially means
Speaker 5: that we're not really being inclusive, are we?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: No, it's rather more exclusive. Like if you're not part
Speaker 5: of that norm, then where does that leave you?
Speaker 3: Well, you're rejected from the tribe, aren't you. Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So in many.
Speaker 2: Cases and a lot of cases, it's much better and
Speaker 2: safer to work out what you need to do to
Speaker 2: stay in the tribe, so to speak, at the expense
Speaker 2: of who you really are. Yeh see, that just breaks
Speaker 2: my heart for men that effort to stay in the
Speaker 2: tribe starts at school. There's a slow or sometimes quick
Speaker 2: realization that who you truly are is.
Speaker 3: Not going to cut it. How was school for you?
Speaker 3: Not the best?
Speaker 4: I think primary school was like okay, because I went
Speaker 4: to my local primary school with like kids from my neighborhood,
Speaker 4: and my school went from like year one to year eight,
Speaker 4: so that you're around people your whole life.
Speaker 3: So I think people just.
Speaker 4: Accepted eccentricities, like I was pretty eccential where people are
Speaker 4: on let's just Abbie, you know, Abby gets up and
Speaker 4: we'll do the confrontation for me Liz for the class
Speaker 4: a cappella and there's her baby, and I was like,
Speaker 4: there's me.
Speaker 3: That's a way.
Speaker 4: And then I went to high school and I went
Speaker 4: to a different I didn't know anyone at my high school,
Speaker 4: so I went from being quite confident to.
Speaker 3: Being like, oh no, I.
Speaker 4: Didn't realize, oh no, and how could they tell we
Speaker 4: were in a uniform? But they could tell it was
Speaker 4: a freak from the moment I came in. I remember
Speaker 4: having like a mountdown in my first week. I think
Speaker 4: I didn't realize that's what it was. But yeah, I
Speaker 4: found that really really hard. Hated high school for the
Speaker 4: first few years. Yeah it was stinkerzoid. But all it
Speaker 4: takes is like really one person to see you, and
Speaker 4: I think for me, that was my music teacher, mister Grant.
Speaker 3: My life. Sorry, I'm getting emotional. It's just whenever anyone talks.
Speaker 2: But having a hard time at school, yeah, it just
Speaker 2: it breaks my heart have.
Speaker 3: A hard time.
Speaker 2: No no, I just have always had that thing. I've
Speaker 2: got two really sensitive spots, people that had a really
Speaker 2: hard time at school and didn't feel like they fitted in,
Speaker 2: and people that didn't have appearance. Yeah, yeah, you have parents.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 2: I got a lovely parents, I can yeah. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: would see over the no her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, so home was always like very accepting, loving space.
Speaker 4: So when I'd come home, it was like you're a great,
Speaker 4: great safe place safe. Yeah, but my school experience got bitter.
Speaker 4: Like mister Grant because he was my music teacher. We
Speaker 4: used to spend time one on one because you'd like
Speaker 4: practice your instrument. My instrument was my voice. I actually couldn't.
Speaker 4: I was really bad at music. I just love mister Grant,
Speaker 4: and so he sort of it was like a bit
Speaker 4: more like my guard was down a little bit more
Speaker 4: of mister Grant, and he could see that I was
Speaker 4: like funny, like I used to be able to really
Speaker 4: make mister Grant laugh, and I think he could see
Speaker 4: I don't know, just having one person kind of see you.
Speaker 4: I remember him saying, oh, you're really funny, and that
Speaker 4: he was like quite serious. He was like a choir
Speaker 4: master but I could really like crack him, like I
Speaker 4: could really make him laugh, and he'd go bright red
Speaker 4: and be like, oh and I think I don't know.
Speaker 4: I was just having one person who's like, I can
Speaker 4: see that you have value. I think he even told
Speaker 4: me one time, he was like, listen, high school sucks.
Speaker 3: This sucks so hard.
Speaker 4: But when you get out of here, you're going to
Speaker 4: realize that actually you're the cool one. But yeah, I
Speaker 4: had a big moment which was like I played the
Speaker 4: lion in my high school production of the Wizard of Us.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, secured the role.
Speaker 4: Yeah, would being really confused because like the quirky, weird
Speaker 4: character is me.
Speaker 3: I don't understand, but I guess I'll do it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was huge, Like I got a huge boost
Speaker 4: of confidence from there. Found the drama freaks and there
Speaker 4: was like now we're cooking. And then by the end
Speaker 4: I was a lot more confident at school. So the
Speaker 4: first probably three years were hard and then last two
Speaker 4: were like, you think it would be.
Speaker 2: Great if when a kids, any kids started school, like
Speaker 2: when you start primary school or high school. That part
Speaker 2: of the whole thing was let's find your thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: bribe the teacher that you can meet with that thing
Speaker 2: that you love and it's make that the center, and
Speaker 2: then all the mess and all the other stuff can
Speaker 2: come around it. But then you've got that safe little
Speaker 2: thing totally. Yeah, this isn't be that hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, I feel like you're just having one person and
Speaker 4: being like listen, kid, I see what you're doing. You're
Speaker 4: kind of a bit weird, bit eccentric, a little bit
Speaker 4: show biz in a way that you don't understand yet.
Speaker 4: Maybe not that great at acting or singing, but there's
Speaker 4: a certain something we haven't quite.
Speaker 3: Tevident to what is yet.
Speaker 2: That's the can I just I've got the vision of
Speaker 2: you as the lion. Yeah, did you have the full
Speaker 2: like could you see your face or was.
Speaker 4: It a fairly It was like tight in the face,
Speaker 4: like full mane and face pain and like the tale.
Speaker 4: I was like, I put on this suit and I
Speaker 4: was like, you cannot touch me. I am electric, Like
Speaker 4: I remember look at myself in the mirror being like yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 4: yes yes, And that is the beauty.
Speaker 3: I think about the stage. No one can touch you
Speaker 3: up there, No no one could touch me.
Speaker 4: I didn't need to have a conversation with anyone the
Speaker 4: conversation has already written down their lines. No worries and
Speaker 4: no problem about that. Yeah, And I think just having
Speaker 4: there there was huge.
Speaker 3: You just need some wins, don't you. You just need
Speaker 3: a few wins in this life to keep you going.
Speaker 2: Besides nailing the role of the lion and the school production,
Speaker 2: there was something else IBB liked about school, the structure.
Speaker 4: Like that there was one hour of that's one of others,
Speaker 4: and you knew the schedule like a well in advance.
Speaker 4: So I think I did enjoy that regimented nature of things.
Speaker 4: I've always kind of built routines into my life wherever
Speaker 4: I go.
Speaker 2: Really, so how about with your family like holidays or
Speaker 2: when things were out, or with your family not as spontaneous.
Speaker 4: Occasionally they would do that and they'd be like like,
Speaker 4: even though technically I could, and there's no reason that
Speaker 4: I can't, I just can't. Yeah, And so I think
Speaker 4: I talked to them when I got the diagnosis. I
Speaker 4: was like, I think this is something, But I love
Speaker 4: to do stuff if it's planned. If you if my
Speaker 4: mom's like, oh, you want to go to the shops
Speaker 4: and get a coffee or something, I'll be like, but
Speaker 4: I hadn't planned that today. But if she's like doing
Speaker 4: a go tomorrow, I'll be like, yes, like affected it in.
Speaker 2: I think that is so helpful, just because the way
Speaker 2: anyone else would look at it's like, well, what do
Speaker 2: you mean why can't you do it today?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: But it's not about that, is it? And it's about
Speaker 2: like is it kind of a security knowing?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Like so that because you don't know what the
Speaker 3: surprises are going to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like my friends, you know, you get invites,
Speaker 4: I'd be like, oh, I'm not doing anything doing to
Speaker 4: come over and like watch a movie and.
Speaker 3: I can't.
Speaker 4: I know that I can, like I'm free, but I
Speaker 4: just had a plan for it.
Speaker 3: So and I think we can all identify with that
Speaker 3: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think that's the secret to helping people understand is
Speaker 2: that you go, we've all got a little bit of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for you, it's just more extreme.
Speaker 4: I get very discombobulated by changes. So that's my partner
Speaker 4: is actually really good at that about not changing plans
Speaker 4: or if plans are going to change, then he will
Speaker 4: really let me know as soon as possible. And yeah,
Speaker 4: I get really upset by plan changes and stuff.
Speaker 3: Can you and I know this is hard.
Speaker 2: I just want people to understand the experience because I
Speaker 2: think sometimes it can come across as got with you,
Speaker 2: I'm sure, but for many like they just want their
Speaker 2: own way, like they're not flexible, and so I just
Speaker 2: wonder if you can tell me what it is as
Speaker 2: best you can about the change that's hard.
Speaker 4: Well, basically, it feels like I plan out my whole
Speaker 4: day and my whole week, and I have the concept
Speaker 4: of my week in my mind. Like today, I knew
Speaker 4: that I was going to wake up and I was
Speaker 4: going to read for twenty minutes, and then I was
Speaker 4: going to answer some of the emails that I have
Speaker 4: had building up, and I will do that, and then
Speaker 4: I'll have a shower, and then I have my breakfast
Speaker 4: and I have executis and breakfast every day and I
Speaker 4: have it then and then I will go and then
Speaker 4: after this, I'm going to do some errands and then
Speaker 4: I'm going to come home and I have free time
Speaker 4: and then I go to a movie tonight and that's
Speaker 4: my day.
Speaker 3: So and that's locked in in my mind.
Speaker 4: So it feels like if a plan changes, like if
Speaker 4: someone says, oh, my friends are like, oh, actually, we're
Speaker 4: not going to go to the movies tonright. It feels
Speaker 4: like a whole has just been punched in this wall
Speaker 4: that I've just built up. It's very discombobulating. It's like,
Speaker 4: but I planned my whole day. I knew exactly when
Speaker 4: I was going to have tea off, planned exactly what
Speaker 4: I'm going to have for tea.
Speaker 2: Everything comes tumbling down. Yeah, pull one lockout. It feels
Speaker 2: like everything is just, yeah, come tumbling.
Speaker 3: That is so interesting.
Speaker 2: What if because my daughter reads for twenty minutes in
Speaker 2: the morning, when you see that I went, and you
Speaker 2: cannot like that's yeah, she has to.
Speaker 3: I have to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what happens if someone sees you? When you're an adult,
Speaker 2: it's easier, you have more autonomy. But for some reason
Speaker 2: that was taken away. I know you'd manage, but what
Speaker 2: is it the same discompopulation. Yes, it couldn't go. I'll
Speaker 2: just do that twenty minutes later.
Speaker 3: Oh no way.
Speaker 4: I think, well I can handle it if I know
Speaker 4: in advance that, like, oh, I'm half early morning tomorrow,
Speaker 4: so I'm not going to get my twenty minutes. And
Speaker 4: but like it's okay because I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 4: But like My partner, for example, is a real chetdy
Speaker 4: Kathy and I love that about him, but he loves
Speaker 4: to chat. He will be like, what's going off for me?
Speaker 4: And I was like, I love this person, which I
Speaker 4: really really.
Speaker 3: Love about him.
Speaker 4: But sometimes, you know, if he's chatting me when I'm
Speaker 4: doing my twenty minutes, that's like.
Speaker 2: But then he because I'm a chedy Kathy, yeah over
Speaker 2: here love cheddy Kathy.
Speaker 3: Yes, but my husband's probably more like you.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm like, I know that he has think
Speaker 2: he's wanting to do, but I need to get it.
Speaker 3: I can't stop it coming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't know, and I'm trying to and I'm like,
Speaker 2: even go, sorry, story, sorry, I just have to say it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I've got one more thing and he's like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. Yeah, And so he'll pop his head
Speaker 3: around the corner bell.
Speaker 4: I'm watching a really good YouTube video at the moment,
Speaker 4: it's above this, and.
Speaker 3: I'd be that's great.
Speaker 2: Do you have to because my daughter, when she was younger,
Speaker 2: if she was interrupted and that twenty it's changed it.
Speaker 2: But sometimes it's like ten pages or something, she'd have
Speaker 2: to start from the beginning.
Speaker 6: Uh yeah, kind of yeah.
Speaker 2: If your needs are quite different to the supposed norm,
Speaker 2: and you've always felt somehow wrong. You're self worth is
Speaker 2: likely to have taken a hit. I ask Abby what
Speaker 2: she struggles with the most.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so that's probably like my big worm.
Speaker 4: And is that like not really trusting that people like
Speaker 4: me and thinking, oh, my friends, they're just very kind
Speaker 4: people that are taking the time.
Speaker 3: To talk to me.
Speaker 4: And and so that's probably like the big bone that
Speaker 4: I need to work on, which I am working on.
Speaker 4: I go to therapy and stuff. But yeah, I do.
Speaker 4: I think happiness is not something that comes necessarily easily
Speaker 4: to me. So I need to work hard, I think too,
Speaker 4: to be pretty good.
Speaker 2: But that's another I should. Oh my god, I sound
Speaker 2: like a therapist. Abby, that's another should. You're saying you
Speaker 2: should work harder diagnosed. I was leaning into an impromptu
Speaker 2: therapy session, but then Abby hit me, it's something I
Speaker 2: wasn't expecting. There's this person that you've just met looking
Speaker 2: at you, yeah, and asking you about yourself, And then
Speaker 2: did you.
Speaker 3: Know that actually we haven't just met. We were in
Speaker 3: a movie together song we were I knew I knew you.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. I had one line in a movie
Speaker 3: was you. It was like the main character in a movie. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and the Real Treatment.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I was not the main character in The Royal Treatment,
Speaker 2: but Irena Castle and I did get to scream a
Speaker 2: lot in a French accent. So you're thinking, no hair
Speaker 2: and belittle my long suffering stuff, but your lack of
Speaker 2: skill living not just stuff included Abbie.
Speaker 3: The maid night there was me, baby God, I know,
Speaker 3: was I nice thing? You were so nice? We did
Speaker 3: it all day. You come here today and you're like,
Speaker 3: she's totally forgot. I had no. It was just a
Speaker 3: surreal experience, the whole thing.
Speaker 4: It was like this Netflix movie being made in Dneda,
Speaker 4: and I was living in at the time. So they
Speaker 4: put a call out for like local actors and I
Speaker 4: came in and they were like can you do an accent?
Speaker 3: And I was like kind of and they were like,
Speaker 3: you're in.
Speaker 4: And then they gave me this character and then they
Speaker 4: changed the characters needed to be my own name, because
Speaker 4: I thought maybe they thought I.
Speaker 3: Was my god Lola and you are Abigail. They work
Speaker 3: in the kitchen.
Speaker 4: I know you, but I the blind You're like I
Speaker 4: did thanks monologue, I remember.
Speaker 3: And I was was that nasty? I was quite nasty.
Speaker 3: Yeah it was. Yeah, you help him. Yes, I'm quite sorry. Complete.
Speaker 3: You can see everything. So and it's course it's you. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's me. Welcome back, Welcome to my paet true me.
Speaker 3: I know you're autistic.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that. I wouldn't have gissed. You did
Speaker 3: a really good job of fighting it. It's a really normal,
Speaker 3: normal question. So normal, Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2: Do you feel confident being out and proud about being autistic?
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 4: I like people to know because I feel like it
Speaker 4: takes the pressure off me a little bit. Like I
Speaker 4: feel like if people know that I'm on the spectrum,
Speaker 4: it's like, oh, what a relief. Like I feel like
Speaker 4: I can really relax and just be myself and not
Speaker 4: have to.
Speaker 3: Tend to be normal. Yeah, I don't have.
Speaker 4: To process everything I do through what a normal person
Speaker 4: say this.
Speaker 2: It takes the pressure off Abby, and it takes the
Speaker 2: pressure off a whole lot of other people as well,
Speaker 2: who are seeing and hearing someone who thinks like them.
Speaker 2: Ebby has a platform and she's using it. Remember that
Speaker 2: clip from the top of this episode.
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I thought i'd let you know right up
Speaker 1: the top that I'm on the autism spectrum and viral.
Speaker 4: To brag, the thing is sitting at like two point
Speaker 4: five million views. It's just a one minute clop of
Speaker 4: me doing a stand.
Speaker 2: Up, but popularity jewels the trolls hard for anyone, but
Speaker 2: for Abby it was devastating.
Speaker 4: I never experienced like that level of attention or negative
Speaker 4: comments before, and to be honest, really raddled me, like
Speaker 4: I got really made me sad, and it made me
Speaker 4: not want to do a comedy anymore. But I've decided
Speaker 4: to talk about that on stage. I'm going to turn
Speaker 4: this experience of the video going royal into a joke.
Speaker 4: And then suddenly I'm in control of it now, like
Speaker 4: those people commenting on me, I'm in control of the story. Now,
Speaker 4: they're only feeding the flame of me. I own the story.
Speaker 2: Now she does own the story, and she has advice
Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't yet feel like they own.
Speaker 4: This, Like comedy has been so important to me, and
Speaker 4: the thing that I found was like I found the
Speaker 4: greatest success when I started to lean into more being
Speaker 4: myself on stage. And so that would be the biggest
Speaker 4: lesson of my whole life. That people like they like
Speaker 4: that they like when you are yourself and you're not
Speaker 4: trying to be anything else, all that stuff that I
Speaker 4: hated about my being like slightly off celter, being into
Speaker 4: things super intensely. I used to hate that about myself,
Speaker 4: But as I've grown older, that thing has become my
Speaker 4: biggest strength.
Speaker 3: I feel so proud of that.
Speaker 4: Like if I was to talk to my teenage self,
Speaker 4: I would say, you are a stand up comedian and
Speaker 4: all this you know, I know you feel like a
Speaker 4: freaking you hate all this stuff about yourself. People are
Speaker 4: gonna love it. You're gonna get out there and share
Speaker 4: stories from real life and share the way that you
Speaker 4: feel about things, and that is your success, which.
Speaker 3: I feel was so proud. I would be so proud
Speaker 3: to tell her that. Yes.
Speaker 2: And can I add to that? Can you send here
Speaker 2: another message all the stuff you're going through, this is material.
Speaker 3: This is great material. Yeah. And the people that love you,
Speaker 3: they're going to really love.
Speaker 2: You next time on no such thing as normal.
Speaker 3: Olympian Eric Murray and his son.
Speaker 7: Zech they don't quite know a lot of it as
Speaker 7: they just don't know the intimate details around like what
Speaker 7: having a child with autism. My ADHD and neurudiverse, right,
Speaker 7: they don't know the stresses, you know, so people will
Speaker 7: be looking at them going control your kid?
Speaker 5: Can your kid?
Speaker 7: Rather than oh shit, you know, like that's the problem
Speaker 7: is the first everyone's first reaction is you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 2: No Such Thing as Normal is produced and presented by
Speaker 2: me Sonia Gray. The editor is Jamie Lee Smith. Arwen
Speaker 2: O'Connor and Mitchell Hawks are executive producers, and Bridget Mills
Speaker 2: helped with research. The series is brought to you by
Speaker 2: the New Zealand Herald and Team Uniform and it's made
Speaker 2: with the support of New Zealand on Air. If you
Speaker 2: like this podcast, please rate and review it it helps
Speaker 2: people find it. New episodes of No Such Thing as
Speaker 2: Normal are available wherever you get your podcasts.