WEBVTT - Episode 16: Autism - Removing the Mask 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:02.960 Hi everyone. I thought i'd let you know right up 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.840 the top that I'm on the autism spectrum. And I 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.920 tell you that for one reason to brag. 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.960 That's the voice of comedian Abbie Howse. She's a regular 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:17.079 on seven Days. 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.480 I reckon, I could withstand torture. How would we give 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:21.880 you to talk? 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.360 Probably making me do small talk with people I don't 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:26.040 know very well? 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.360 A fan favorite on Taskmaster, Abbie, Yes, what did you 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:31.720 bring it? 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.240 I brought in my autism assessment sheet. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.959 And the sweetest, loveliest person you'll ever meet, and Abbie 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:43.440 is proudly autistic. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.640 When I found out, I was like, oh my god, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:51.720 everyone is going to be so surprised I have autism. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:52.600 Who knew? 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.080 And the answer is everyone everyone knew. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:02.040 But not everyone did know because Abby, like many autistic people, 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:09.360 had been masking for most of her life. Gelda, I'm 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.760 Sonya Gray and this is no such thing as normal. 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.120 Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.840 of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.240 neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD. 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.640 In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:29.759 wonderful people who experience the. 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:31.120 World in a unique way. 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:45.880 We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. In this episode, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.800 we're looking at one aspect of the autism experience, masking, 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.080 or changing your behavior to come across as normal. 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:54.680 We all do it to. 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.600 Some degree, but many people on the autism spectrum have 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.080 the mask up full time. That makes daily life exhausting 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.400 because it involves practice and vigilance and effort and ignoring 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.480 their own needs. But now many like Abbie Howe's, are 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:12.920 exploring whether life. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:14.640 Can be done without the mask. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.280 How young were you when you kind of went there's 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:20.240 something different about me. 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:22.240 I'm not like other kids. 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.400 Oh gosh, I feel like I kind of always have 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.320 felt that way. It feels feel like I'm kind of 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.760 from a different planet, or like I'm a person operated 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.520 by a robot inside. It's like a little robot in there. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.799 That's like learning how to be a human a little bit. 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.520 That's like, that's how it feels, and Abbies had to 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.040 learn the nuances of social interaction. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.040 Some that comes naturally to other people. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.519 I'm like locking away information like oh yes, yes, that's 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:48.600 how you have a conversation. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.000 Notices I remember that for next time you are on 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:58.160 shows like Taskmaster, which are amazing and fun, but I 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.920 imagine quite growling and when you autistic and you have 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:05.120 sensory stuff going on, Patty you cope with that kind 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:05.359 of thing. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.880 It is kind of hard, yeah, because it's like really 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.799 bright lights. They also pump music really loud as well 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.480 when you walk out to make you seem cool, and 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:20.080 it does feel cool, but it's also like ah, and yeah, 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.840 they're exhausting, Like I love the tapings of stuff like 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.680 Seven Days and Taskmaster, but like they bleed me dry. 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.200 It's exhausting to do it. And also it's like I 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.520 feel like I'm a duck in the water. Like maybe 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.119 on the outside it look like I know what I'm doing, 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.000 I know how to talk to people, but it's like this, like, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.440 oh god, this person has said something, so maybe that 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.720 means I can come in because it's a it's a 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:46.360 give and take. 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.640 Yeah, yeah, but that's what I don't because you see 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.880 social situations you find hard, like when do I come in? 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.360 And that's like a social situation on steroids top. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.880 Me like it is it is you have to talk 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.080 two people in front of cameras and just know. 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.480 When being really said something, so maybe I could say, oh, 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.760 I've missed my bit, I've missed my opportunity, like that 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:10.640 must be so hot. 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.440 Yeah. I had a bit of a wobble in the 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:18.800 studio of Taskmaster because the other four contestants amazing. They 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.000 were so good in the studio and they were like 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.480 and then someone would say something and then they'd like 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.040 have a perfect little quip, and I was like, oh 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.599 my gosh, these people are They're incredible. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:30.840 I can't measure up to that. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.440 But then eventually I realized, like, oh, maybe I don't 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.240 say as much, but what I do say really cuts 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.279 through and is of kind of a different energy to 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.159 everyone else. So that's kind of the best thing I 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.799 can do in those situations. Is actually because I actually 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.159 talked about it with my therapist, because I had one 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.279 seven days where I was like, I don't think I 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.240 was very good, and I got the negative voices in 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.480 my head, like as soon as I walked out, I 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.600 was like, everyone hates you. They're gutted that you're on 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.839 the show. They hate you. And so we started to 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.200 call those voices the viper. So it's like, oh, the 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.919 vipers come out again, and said the negative voices, but 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.400 she yeah, she was like, the best thing you can 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.120 do in those moments is not play the same game 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.359 as everyone else because you can't. So you've got to 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.400 invent your own game. Yeah, but they also can't play 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:23.800 your game. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.919 They can't play my game. Yeah. Yeah. That's when things 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:27.760 locked in for me. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.080 Was when because like, for a while, I was like, 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:31.520 I've got to try to be like all these other 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.159 comedians and do joki jokes and like great observations on 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:41.080 life that everyone can relate to. And then eventually I realized, like, hm, 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.760 your observations on life are a little off kilter from 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.839 everyone else. Does everyone experience this and prove like no, 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:51.200 last not. 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.000 The thing is, in many cases we are experiencing life 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.359 like that, we just don't realize it. Emmie has a 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.880 really clear way of shining a light on the ridiculousness 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.560 of many of our social norms. We're laughing because she's funny, 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.200 but we're also laughing at ourselves. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:14.279 And so what next? What does the future hold? I 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.479 really want to get a haircut. That's probably the move. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.159 It's gone off, laughy. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.960 The reason I was excited about interviewing you is I 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.640 am fascinated by comedians because I have no idea why 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:28.680 you would do it. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.360 Yeah, I get it. It must be terrifying. It is. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.200 I would rather eat cold, sick stand up in front 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.719 of an audience who paid money for me to make 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:41.320 them laugh. 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:43.320 Yeah, nis sure, I know. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.679 It's quite psycholic to do, I think, And it is hard, 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:51.200 Like you're kind of putting yourself out there to be like, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:53.279 you know, you're naked. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:58.359 Yeah, so like you're so naked and then and it's. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.040 Like you want people to laugh at the naked you 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:06.120 years totally you're giving people such a gift like laughter. 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.720 Is there anything we need more right now than laughter? 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.720 And like you're putting yourself out there to make people happy. Oh, 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.680 that's very kind of you to say. Oh it's true. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.960 I think it's wonderful and that's a gift. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.760 But like the highs, like when it goes well, when 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.600 you are like in total command of the room and 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.720 everyone's going with here on everything. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.200 I mean, that's the high that you're tasting. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.360 Like once you get there, it's like I want to 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:34.760 keep getting that all the time. 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.680 You were diagnosed three years ago, Yes, I mean, new 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.760 kid on the block. Are you Afreshie. How has having 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.600 the diagnosis the official thing changed your life? 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.800 Hmmm, well, I think the main thing would be I'm 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.560 a lot kinder to myself than I used to be 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.160 before I knew. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.080 I was like, what's wrong with you? You freak? Like 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:03.680 why can't you just talk to people? 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.840 It's so easy for everyone else, and you come out 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.760 with some absolute clangers, mate, and it seems effortless for them. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.960 And I used to beerate myself, like not wanting to 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:13.120 go to parties and be. 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:14.760 Like, what's wrong with you? Dinger? 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.560 And then I found out that, yeah, I was on 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.800 this spectrum, and then suddenly I think it's I think 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.600 for me, my diagnosis is like being autistic is like 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.560 it's not a good thing necessarily, it's not a bad 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:28.280 thing necessarily. 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:29.000 It's neutral. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.920 So I think just recognizing that im I'm coming at 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:32.920 things from a different way. 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.920 A process kind of trusting yourself and trusting that you 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.040 as your authentic self is okay. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.880 Yes, it feels at the moment, I like that authentic 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:48.360 self like peeks out sometimes mostly it's kind of here, 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.920 but I'm feeling more and more kind of coming out 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.319 of a mold coming out of the hole a little bit. 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:55.920 The mule's coming out of the whole little bit more 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:57.600 like that's awesome. 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.520 And you know, the more you practice it anything, the 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.080 bitter you get. So the more that that mold comes 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.960 out of the hole, the more the mob will feel 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.640 comfortable coming out of the hole. I think one of 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.320 the reasons it's scary for people that have masked their 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.240 whole lives. And everyone masks to some degree. I have to, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.280 and you have to do just to get by in 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.000 the world. But seriously, like head the shield up, is 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.480 that actually revealing who you are? And the terror of 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.840 people not liking who you authentically are is so bad. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.400 Like if they don't like the masked you, that's somehow easier, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:31.760 does it? 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:32.840 Yeah, totally. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.440 I'm trying to not mask as much. I'm trying to 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:40.080 like keep my facial expression. I used to add like 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.120 a lot of facial expressions, and now I. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.480 Was like, well I have to, so you're adding the 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.240 facial expressions was for other people, I think. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.480 So I think I was like, this is how this 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:51.800 is how a prison is. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.880 But yeah, so I feel I've noticed that I've been 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.360 doing that less. I've noticed that I'm a bit more 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.199 like neutral in the face. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.320 I intervied a girl who used to practice her facial 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:05.320 expressions in the mirror before school. 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:06.599 Did you ever do anything like that? 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.520 Yeah, and practice like oh, people are going to probably 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.360 ask you how you are so oh. Practice was like 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.160 a really normal response to there. There's like the perfect 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.120 level of vulnerability because you can't just so good. 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.000 You've got to say, well, you know, this build is 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:19.720 also going on. 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.719 And then if I follow up question, yeah, anticipate the 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:23.440 follow up question. 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:28.160 I still do this actually, yeah. It just makes me 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.959 really sad. What about stuff like eye contact? Are you okay? 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:33.920 I'm not. Yeah. I struggle with it a little bit here. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.640 Now I can't okay, I'm not that good. I just 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.320 feel like I'm doing it wrong all the time. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.480 It's definitely something I have to think about consciously of 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.840 what is a normal amount. I'm kind of thinking about 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.000 it quite a lot when I'm doing it, like it 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.480 would come naturally to someone else. But I have to think, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.080 now it's a normal time to look up, and now 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.959 I've given myself a few seconds so you can look 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:55.439 away for. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.840 A little bit. And I don't know I'm having her thoughts. 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.040 But now I've got to come back to you, so 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.240 I'm kind of manually doing eye contact. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.840 The Dictionary definition of masking is the act of concealing 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.640 the existence of something by obstructing the view of it. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.720 When we're talking about human behavior, there's something you're concealing 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.200 is how you really feel, and masking is something we 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.600 all do in certain situations we need to to fit in. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.920 I mean, who doesn't want to feel like they're accepted 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.240 and they're liked and that you know, you're a popular person. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.280 That's Sarah Watson, a clinical psychologist who works with many 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:52.640 young autistic people. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.520 We hold these things in high esteem in our society, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.000 so they're all really big motivators tu much. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.760 For most of us, masking is an automatic response. We 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.400 tweak our natural behavior to fit the situation. We might 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.679 be a little bit more polite than usual, or we 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.720 might pretend to be interested when we are really really not. 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.480 But for many autistic people, masking is something that takes 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.120 thought and effort and a lot of practice. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.600 It needs to be a conscious, deliberate process. 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.760 And that's where the exhaustion comes in when you're having 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:30.200 to do it for a full day. 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.800 Absolutely, and also because it means you've got to think 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.840 about what your face is doing, what your eyes are doing, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.600 what your posture is doing, what your tone is doing, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.840 how you're communicating, like the content of your speech, and 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:53.800 on and on it goes. Masking can be absolutely exhausting, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.320 and it can get to the point where you can 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.839 burn out because it is just the exhaustion level from 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.920 having to do it day in, day out, day in 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.800 day out, week, month, year after year. But there's also 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:15.160 those that the mask that they take on is very 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.000 dissimilar to who they actually are. So when there is 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.199 a significant we call it incongruence in the biz, where 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.600 there's like that difference between who I am being on 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.959 the outside versus who I am on the inside, then 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.040 you can get a sense of I'm not good enough 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.839 either way. And when you have that, then your exterior 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.319 is kind of like, oh, I'm this, but nobody really 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:47.120 fully accepts that. But then when you're unmasked and I 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.000 am this and you also feel like nobody really accepts that, 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:57.520 then you're in this really horrible double bind where you 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.960 don't necessarily know who you are. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.080 And if you've lived your whole life masking, it's quite 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:05.760 hard to take that mask off, isn't it? 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:11.000 One hundred and then when and where and how and 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.000 for whom? And then also it can lead to some 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.920 really complicated feelings about yourself and your own identity, like 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.320 questions like who am I? Is this really me? Why 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.320 do I have to do this right to be able 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:30.040 to almost pass as neurotypical rather than just being able 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:30.440 to be me? 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:37.160 Do you think that society has set things up? There's 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.200 this band quite narrow band of normal and you know, 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.240 we're here all the time. Oh, be yourself and difference 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.960 is great, but it doesn't necessarily play out like that. Yeah, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.200 we love difference, but it kind of feels like there's 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:58.320 a societal norm that no one really is living up to, 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.040 especially neurodivergent people men and neurodivegent people. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:04.720 One hundred percent. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.840 It's hard to think that so many people spend their 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.720 lives desperately trying to fit in, but psychologist Sarah Watson 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.520 says it's changing. We're having more open, honest, public conversations 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.840 and that has a profound effect. Especially if you've always 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:26.920 thought you with a problem. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.040 Then it's kind of like a oh my gosh, this 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.640 is a thing. You know, it's a thing that other 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.080 people experience, like I'm not alone. There's so much validation, 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.040 which we call normalizing, which is ironic because you realize 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.680 that you're you're not alone with it, and it's a 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.920 way of kind of coping perhaps with that disconnect between 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.520 what is expected and who. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.240 I am that we all do. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.720 But when you're neurodivergent, the demands are so much more 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.920 because it has to be so intentional, right, you don't 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.880 have that automatic part that's just doing it for you 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:13.600 when somebody is neurotypical, that it's actually just all happens automatically, right, 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:18.240 that adjustment. Yes, when you say that to some people 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:26.000 who are autosticor neurodivigent, it blows their mind because they've 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.200 always had to work at it and assume that everybody 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.080 has to work at. 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.840 It, right, So they're walking around going everyone else is 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.360 really good at playing this game, and I'm failing. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:38.720 It's just me. It's defective. 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.160 I'm not good enough. I hope that our sense of 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.720 what is normal is now broadening, right, But it can 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.280 only do that with things like this podcast, because what 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.200 that's doing is shining a light on we can be 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:59.000 different and it not be less right and what is 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.280 normal at the end of the day. Unfortunately, we do 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.480 have a social concept around what it is, and we 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:12.160 have we even have statistically, we have population norms, for example, 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:17.359 which tells us what's typical and what's not typical. So 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.399 there's a lot that leans into that concept of what 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.560 is the average, what is the norm? Which potentially means 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.320 that we're not really being inclusive, are we? 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:31.240 No? 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:36.920 No, it's rather more exclusive. Like if you're not part 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.760 of that norm, then where does that leave you? 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.440 Well, you're rejected from the tribe, aren't you. Yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:46.960 So in many. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.040 Cases and a lot of cases, it's much better and 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.520 safer to work out what you need to do to 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:58.280 stay in the tribe, so to speak, at the expense 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.080 of who you really are. Yeh see, that just breaks 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:08.240 my heart for men that effort to stay in the 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.680 tribe starts at school. There's a slow or sometimes quick 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.120 realization that who you truly are is. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.639 Not going to cut it. How was school for you? 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:21.440 Not the best? 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.200 I think primary school was like okay, because I went 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.280 to my local primary school with like kids from my neighborhood, 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.200 and my school went from like year one to year eight, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.240 so that you're around people your whole life. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:35.160 So I think people just. 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:39.239 Accepted eccentricities, like I was pretty eccential where people are 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.000 on let's just Abbie, you know, Abby gets up and 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.240 we'll do the confrontation for me Liz for the class 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.080 a cappella and there's her baby, and I was like, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:49.480 there's me. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:50.080 That's a way. 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.000 And then I went to high school and I went 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.280 to a different I didn't know anyone at my high school, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.560 so I went from being quite confident to. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.480 Being like, oh no, I. 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.240 Didn't realize, oh no, and how could they tell we 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:06.680 were in a uniform? But they could tell it was 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.600 a freak from the moment I came in. I remember 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.160 having like a mountdown in my first week. I think 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.919 I didn't realize that's what it was. But yeah, I 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.520 found that really really hard. Hated high school for the 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:25.080 first few years. Yeah it was stinkerzoid. But all it 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.719 takes is like really one person to see you, and 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:32.080 I think for me, that was my music teacher, mister Grant. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.960 My life. Sorry, I'm getting emotional. It's just whenever anyone talks. 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.000 But having a hard time at school, yeah, it just 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:40.840 it breaks my heart have. 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:41.320 A hard time. 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:45.640 No no, I just have always had that thing. I've 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.360 got two really sensitive spots, people that had a really 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.399 hard time at school and didn't feel like they fitted in, 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:57.439 and people that didn't have appearance. Yeah, yeah, you have parents. 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:58.040 I did. 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.399 I got a lovely parents, I can yeah. Yeah, they 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.000 would see over the no her. 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:03.600 Yeah. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.320 Well, so home was always like very accepting, loving space. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.920 So when I'd come home, it was like you're a great, 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.520 great safe place safe. Yeah, but my school experience got bitter. 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.199 Like mister Grant because he was my music teacher. We 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.359 used to spend time one on one because you'd like 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.240 practice your instrument. My instrument was my voice. I actually couldn't. 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.240 I was really bad at music. I just love mister Grant, 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.240 and so he sort of it was like a bit 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.119 more like my guard was down a little bit more 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.320 of mister Grant, and he could see that I was 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.200 like funny, like I used to be able to really 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.920 make mister Grant laugh, and I think he could see 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.400 I don't know, just having one person kind of see you. 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.920 I remember him saying, oh, you're really funny, and that 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.000 he was like quite serious. He was like a choir 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.639 master but I could really like crack him, like I 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.880 could really make him laugh, and he'd go bright red 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.879 and be like, oh and I think I don't know. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.600 I was just having one person who's like, I can 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.800 see that you have value. I think he even told 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.360 me one time, he was like, listen, high school sucks. 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:06.520 This sucks so hard. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:08.440 But when you get out of here, you're going to 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.879 realize that actually you're the cool one. But yeah, I 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.840 had a big moment which was like I played the 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.600 lion in my high school production of the Wizard of Us. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.080 Oh my god, secured the role. 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.160 Yeah, would being really confused because like the quirky, weird 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:25.119 character is me. 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.680 I don't understand, but I guess I'll do it. 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.800 Yeah, that was huge, Like I got a huge boost 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.960 of confidence from there. Found the drama freaks and there 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.880 was like now we're cooking. And then by the end 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.480 I was a lot more confident at school. So the 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.120 first probably three years were hard and then last two 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:45.760