1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Is 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: New Zealand's legal system moving fast enough to adapt to 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: new technologies. It's a question being asked by some of 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: our top academics and MPs. The conversation around covert recordings 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: has made headlines again this week, as well as raising 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: questions around whether it's actually illegal and act. MP Laura 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: McClure made global headlines after holding up a photo of 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: herself naked in Parliament. It was an AI generated deep fake, 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: which McClure said took her only moments to create. So 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: do our existing laws protect victims from being abused through 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: rapidly developing technology. We discuss that later with the University 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: of Canterbury Professor of Law, doctor Cassandra Mudgway, but first 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: on the Front Page we discuss that viral deep fake 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: moment with AX Laura McClure. So, Laura, what motivated you 16 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: to create this nude deep fake of yourself? 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to highlight the growing or emerging trend 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: that is deep fake pornography and realistically it's now starting 19 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: to happen for a youth in particular, and it's becoming 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: a huge problem at schools. I'm our party's education spokesperson, 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: so I'm out there talking to principles teachers parents alike, 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: and I'm also a parent myself. So I've noticed this 23 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: concerning trend over the last few years, and I thought 24 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: that I would create a members bill in order to 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: attack the loophole that we have and see if we 26 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: can do something about this. 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: Are you surprised by the international reaction to this. I've 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: seen it picked up by a lot of international news outlets. 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: No, look, I'm actually not and I think this is 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: a worldwide trend. When we see the increase in technology 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: like AI, we often find that it is used sometimes 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: by bad actors the time it's used for good, as 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: we know. But I think that this is a growing 34 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: trend worldwide, so I'm not surprised to see us picked 35 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 2: up internationally. 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: I saw that while Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith said they're 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: not currently considering adopting the bill, he'll meet with you 38 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: to discuss it. Has that meeting taken place, not just yet. 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: But I do believe I am meeting with him next month, 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: which I think is a positive step. I understand the 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: government has a very busy workload that this is a 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: really big problem in the story that I've been hearing 43 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: are like harrowing, to be honest, and it's as this 44 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: government going to wait until somebody actually commits suicide over this, 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: or if are we going to actually do something there 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: about it? 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: Well, I know that you need to convince sixty MP's 48 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: from across the House to support it so it can 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: skip that member's bill ballot process. How's that all going? 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's going really well. These positive signs 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: from all of the parties in government that if this 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: bill was pulled they would definitely support it as far 53 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: as bypassing the Tin. I've got great support from the Greens, 54 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: which is sometimes a bit unusual coming from Act but 55 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: they also have these share the same concerns labor and 56 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: definitely New Zealand first, and I'm talking with Hannah Rafferty 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: to discuss if she's on board too. So I've written 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: to their party whips or all the party whips saying, look, 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: I think this is something a bit more serious and 60 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: requires a lot more urgency. Can we get this out 61 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: of the tin and see if we can get some 62 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: action on it. 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: This image is a naked image of me, but it 64 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: is not real. 65 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: This image is what we call a deep faith. 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 3: It took me less than five minutes to make a 67 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: series of deep fakes of myself. Scaringly, it was a 68 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: quick Google search for the technology of what's available. In fact, 69 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: I didn't need to enter an email address. I just 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: had to tack a box A so I was eighteen 71 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: and that it was my image and I could use it. 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Do you think we're moving fast enough as a country 73 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: to adapt to new technologies? If we wait for your 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: bill to go through the biscuit ten, get drawn, get debated, 75 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: go through three readings, there could be a brand new 76 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: tech or ways of doing things by then. 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: Hey, well absolutely there could be. But I believe ye 78 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: my bill would protect from any sensor sized images. So 79 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: whether it's done via the current tech or future tech, 80 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: I think it would cover us into the future. And 81 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: I do believe it's something that we absolutely need to do. 82 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: And this tech is moving really fast, like day by 83 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: day there are new sites, new apps that can do 84 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: all of this kind of thing. And I think, you know, 85 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: as law makers, we really need to consider one. How 86 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: can we adopt AI for good. I think that's a 87 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 2: real positive thing, but what can we do when people 88 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: use it for malicious purposes? 89 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: What are some of the horror stories you've heard from 90 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: parents and students and teachers. 91 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard quite a lot of heroin stories that 92 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: are really motivating me to push on with us and 93 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: actually show how urgent it is. One of the main stories, 94 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: or the key stories that I've been saying, is about 95 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: a stirtying year old girl and I've got a twelve 96 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: year old boy, so still feels very awfully young for thirty. 97 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: She was deep faked and it was shared amongst her 98 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: peers at school just year nine, and she attempted suicide 99 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: on school site. It was absolutely terrifying and traumatizing, not 100 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: for just for the individual, but for her peers in 101 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: the school, and the lack of support and resource around 102 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 2: this is really terrifying. It would be on the extreme 103 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: side of things, but other than that case, I've heard 104 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: of many, many other young predominantly females where this is 105 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: happening to her, whether it's at school, university for example, 106 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 2: or within the workplace. 107 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Laura, Thank you. Last week, Michael Forbes, 108 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: a former Deputy Press Secretary in Christopher Lucksen's office was 109 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: exposed in a staff investigation for having allegedly made audio 110 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: recordings of sex workers and photographed women on the street 111 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: without their consent. And this case, alongside the calls for 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: a crackdown on deep fake porn, have highlighted the issues 113 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: facing our legal system and keeping up with new technology. 114 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: To discuss further, we're joined now on the front page 115 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: by doctor Cassandra Mudgway from the University of Canterbury. First off, Cassandra, 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: what are some of the current laws in place around 117 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: covert audio recordings? I imagine they must be illegal in 118 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: some way. 119 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: So there are some crimes under the Crimes Act around 120 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 4: covert audio recordings, but they only cover audio conversations where 121 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 4: the person who's intercepting, which is what it's called interception, 122 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 4: is not party to the conversation itself. 123 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: Right, So if I was to covertly record someone just 124 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: in a conversation between us two, that's okay. 125 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, So if one party consents to that then 126 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 4: that would be lead. 127 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: What about in the case where I don't know, say 128 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: it was a covert recording of a session with a 129 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: sex worker. 130 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 4: So that is a sort of an intimate sort of 131 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 4: audio recording, and that is lawful, so it's not illegal 132 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 4: under the Crimes Act. The Crime fact only covers intimate 133 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 4: video recordings. 134 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: What about recording or filming in public places, things like 135 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: a woman walking down a street at the gem, extreme 136 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: close ups, that kind of thing. 137 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, so intimate visual recordings that are prohibited under the 138 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 4: Crimes Act, which is the non consensual creation, possession, or 139 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 4: distribution of those. That definition requires that the person that 140 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 4: you're covertly recording is in a place where they have 141 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 4: a reasonable expectation of privacy. And secondly, that person is 142 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 4: in a state of undress or engaged in sexual activity, 143 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 4: or otherwise maybe showering or going to the bathroom. If 144 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 4: you have COVID taking of photographs or videos of women 145 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 4: in public places, the obvious fish hook that I see 146 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 4: is that the place where the women are being captured, 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 4: generally when you're out using public spaces are so walking 148 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: down the road or in a supermarket or even using 149 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 4: a public gym, you have a lesser expectation of privacy 150 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 4: than you do in your own private home. And even 151 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 4: where you could argue that perhaps zooming in on certain 152 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 4: body parts where that becomes like the subject of the 153 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 4: image or video, perhaps that could be recognized that you 154 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: have a higher expectation of privacy there. The image itself, 155 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 4: according to the definition, must be of those body parts 156 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 4: being exposed in some way, so naked or in your underwear, 157 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: so it's not easily captured under these sort of criminal 158 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 4: or that slate of criminal offenses. 159 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: Does any of this counter's harassment Potentially? 160 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 4: It really depends on the circumstances. So under the Harassment Act, 161 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 4: harassment involves a pattern of behavior, so at least two instances, 162 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: and that includes specified acts, which does include following or 163 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 4: watching well otherwise behavior that causes a person to fear 164 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 4: for their safety. So covert filming could meet this definition 165 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 4: if it's repeated and or if it causes fear or distress. However, 166 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 4: proving intent or knowledge regarding that fear can be a 167 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 4: legal hurdle, I think, especially when the conduct is framed 168 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 4: as more like your voyeuristic rather than threatening. It's probably 169 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 4: also difficult to prosecute if the women are being followed 170 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 4: or watched, they've never become aware of that. I can 171 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: see that as being difficult to prosecute. 172 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, does it seem like the laws are a bit 173 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: outdated here. 174 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that this situation has really exposed some 175 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 4: gaps in the law, particularly when it comes to those 176 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: intimate audio recordings, which as the women who brought this forward, 177 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: where we're shocked that wasn't a criminal offense, and generally 178 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 4: this is a really good opportunity I think to really 179 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 4: step back and have a look at our current laws 180 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 4: and while they address some forms of non consensual recording, 181 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 4: as we've discussed, they were designed with specific technologies and 182 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: behaviors in mind. So that's slate of criminal offenses I'm 183 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 4: talking about that was created in two thousand and six. 184 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 4: We're talking about the influx of digital cameras. It's not 185 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: created with everyone having high powered sort of cameras just 186 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 4: on your phones like we do now with smartphones. So 187 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 4: as a result, the criminal offenses that we have fail 188 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 4: to capture newer, equally harmful conduct like the covert intimate 189 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 4: audio recordings, but also other things like synthetic media abuse, 190 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 4: like non consensual sexualized depth fakes. So I think that 191 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: we need to really look at law reform in a 192 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 4: sort of in a different way, something that is more 193 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 4: technology neutral and perhaps look at what kind of harm 194 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 4: we want to sort of protect people from. So what 195 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 4: do we want to protect. We want to protect sexual autonomy, 196 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 4: bodily antegrity, privacy, and a real focus on that lack 197 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,479 Speaker 4: of consent. I think. 198 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 5: Initially we figured that there was a gap in the law. 199 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 5: It's something that was raised as far back as twenty eleven. 200 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 6: Is it's not a criminal harestler. I feel this case 201 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 6: is so extreme. It's the most extreme end of cyber 202 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 6: ar wrestler. But it could be used to shake Okay, 203 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 6: this probably doesn't have any. 204 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 5: Day and has been a constant query from the victims 205 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 5: I've spoken to. 206 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 7: Why why can the government not step in and put 207 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 7: protocols in place to protect people? Surely there must be 208 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 7: something out there that you know the government can can done. 209 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 5: Well, Sorry, it turns out our laws are pretty good. 210 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: Last year the Herald released Chasing Ghosts the Papper Tier, 211 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: and that looked at the case of Catfish and Natalia Burgers. 212 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: They looked at the legal side of trying to stop 213 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: her and found there were laws that could target her, 214 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: but not a specific anti catfishing law or anything like that. 215 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: Despite a lot of the victims wanting something like that 216 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: put forward. Do you think we trend towards being I 217 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: suppose too specific in some of our laws in issues like. 218 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 4: This, Yeah, because catfishing is a kind of impersonation scam, 219 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 4: so it was sort of like a romance scam colloquially, 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 4: that's kind of how we refer to it. And if 221 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 4: you are too specific to tech specific, it could create 222 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 4: gaps later on. I would assume that would be something 223 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 4: around fraud or blackmail. But part of the purpose of 224 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: criminal law, I think, is to signal public condemnation of 225 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 4: certain harmful behavior. There is a purpose to explicitly criminalize 226 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: a specific behavior. You are making it very clear that 227 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 4: this particular behavior as criminal behavior, and if you are 228 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 4: convicted of that offense, that it carries the stigma of 229 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: committing that particular behavior, And that's what we call fear labeling. 230 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 4: So I can see how that could be a really 231 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: good argument to making a specific catfishing offense or a 232 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: specific deep fake offense. You know, I can see that 233 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 4: being very useful, But again, it runs that risk of 234 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 4: being two tech specific, and you know, you can find 235 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 4: gaps in the law later when new tech is developed 236 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 4: and there are new ways to commit this kind of 237 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 4: harm in the future. 238 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: What kind of laws would you put forward to kind 239 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: of capture all of the things that we've been talking 240 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: about and to make sure that it's kind of future proofed. 241 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: I guess yeah. 242 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 4: I think it is just going back and thinking about, 243 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: as I said before, thinking about law reform in a 244 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 4: principled kind of way, focusing on what we want to 245 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 4: protect and what is the harmful conduct that we want 246 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 4: to criminalize, and that focus on a lack of consent. 247 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 4: I think that's a whole of society sort of conversation 248 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 4: to be had. 249 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: It's interesting as well because these things happen all the time. 250 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: Look at the stalking laws that have just come through 251 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: or been passed. I mean, we do have the ability 252 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: to look at these kind of consent issues and create 253 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: legislation to cover it, and which covers things like covert 254 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: recordings and taking photos of someone in the street. Hey, yep, yep, the. 255 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 4: New stalking or although we don't know what the final 256 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 4: form is going to be, probably would have been helpful 257 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 4: in this situation and get sort of an earlier police 258 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 4: intervention as well. 259 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Cassandra, no worries. Thank you. That's 260 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: it for this episode of the Front Page. You can 261 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at 262 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: enzad Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 263 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 264 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 265 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 266 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.