WEBVTT - David Seymour: Parliament haka internationally embarrassing 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681 You're listening to the Weekend collective podcast from news Talks B. 0:00:10.201 --> 0:00:13.361 The Hikoy has reached Parmerston North, just days away from 0:00:13.361 --> 0:00:15.921 Parliament on Thursday. You will remember the scenes to Party 0:00:15.961 --> 0:00:19.801 marimp Hunter Rafferty m P Clark. That is quite a surname, 0:00:19.881 --> 0:00:22.481 isn't It ripped a copy of the legislation in half 0:00:22.521 --> 0:00:24.441 at the first reading and launched into a hakka, soon 0:00:24.561 --> 0:00:26.801 joined by more MPs and people in the gallery. The 0:00:26.881 --> 0:00:31.881 hakker went worldwide viral, international media commentators having their say 0:00:31.921 --> 0:00:33.801 on it as well. And with me now is Act 0:00:33.841 --> 0:00:37.401 Party leader and the bill's author, slash architect David Seymour. 0:00:37.441 --> 0:00:42.081 Good afternoon, Good afternoon. I found someone who likes your 0:00:42.081 --> 0:00:43.881 bill even more than you do. And I think you're 0:00:43.921 --> 0:00:46.161 going to be getting a Christmas card from Rawdy Yit 0:00:46.521 --> 0:00:49.001 for giving him the best ever recruitment tool he's ever had. 0:00:51.001 --> 0:00:55.081 Well, that maybe hits you, but I think the question 0:00:55.281 --> 0:00:58.761 is what does the recruiting people for that's positive, that 0:00:58.961 --> 0:01:02.521 can ultimately solve problems for people. If I look at 0:01:03.001 --> 0:01:08.161 what I would want is the place to live, better education, 0:01:08.361 --> 0:01:11.521 better job prospects. Funnily enough, the same thing everyone wants 0:01:12.001 --> 0:01:14.961 and to Party MARII, I think are showing that they 0:01:15.001 --> 0:01:19.041 don't really have any solutions, just theatrics, So he might 0:01:19.121 --> 0:01:20.961 think that that I'm not sure that it's going to 0:01:21.001 --> 0:01:24.521 build much of a movement for him just being against things. 0:01:25.521 --> 0:01:28.481 On the other hand, has a pretty comprehensive set of 0:01:28.521 --> 0:01:32.881 policies on everything from the ARIMA to delivering charter schools 0:01:32.881 --> 0:01:35.841 and getting more overseas investment to make New Zealand a 0:01:35.841 --> 0:01:36.521 wealthare place. 0:01:37.441 --> 0:01:39.401 What is the best that we can hope to gain 0:01:39.481 --> 0:01:42.681 from the presentation of this bill, because I mean, let's 0:01:42.681 --> 0:01:44.801 face it, we're not going to be hitting a referendum, 0:01:44.801 --> 0:01:47.081 but we are going to have a select committee process. 0:01:48.441 --> 0:01:51.321 Well, as you said in your intro, you don't think 0:01:51.321 --> 0:01:54.081 that I just hold the possibility open for you that 0:01:54.641 --> 0:01:56.641 say that. A week's a long time in politics, and 0:01:56.721 --> 0:01:59.801 we've got about twenty five weeks until the Select committeees 0:02:00.121 --> 0:02:03.121 due to report back. But let's just for a moment 0:02:03.321 --> 0:02:06.001 take you that you know what you're saying is true 0:02:06.041 --> 0:02:08.361 and it will only get to the first reading in 0:02:08.401 --> 0:02:12.881 the select committee process. Well, in that instance, what we 0:02:12.921 --> 0:02:16.521 will have done is democratize the treaty and introduced the 0:02:16.601 --> 0:02:19.961 idea that all voices count that everyone has equal rights 0:02:20.001 --> 0:02:22.361 in New Zealand to have a say about the future 0:02:22.641 --> 0:02:26.041 of our constitutional settings. That's quite different from what we've 0:02:26.081 --> 0:02:28.401 had over the last forty years, where there's been a 0:02:28.441 --> 0:02:32.001 fairly sublect and not very representative group of people, mainly 0:02:32.041 --> 0:02:36.161 in the legal fraternity, that have been forming a view 0:02:36.201 --> 0:02:38.481 of the treaty that the whole country has to live under, 0:02:38.721 --> 0:02:40.801 but most people don't get a say on So that 0:02:40.841 --> 0:02:44.241 democratization is big. And if you doubt that, you only 0:02:44.281 --> 0:02:46.521 have to look at my opponents who agree with me 0:02:46.561 --> 0:02:49.641 on this. If they really thought that the bill wasn't 0:02:49.641 --> 0:02:52.321 going anywhere, why are they putting in so much effort 0:02:52.601 --> 0:02:55.441 because they are opposed to the idea that people should 0:02:55.441 --> 0:02:55.881 have a say. 0:02:56.921 --> 0:03:00.321 Are you concerned about the sense of division that is 0:03:00.361 --> 0:03:03.241 growing in New Zealand and that some people are saying 0:03:03.281 --> 0:03:07.041 it's sowing a greater degree of division between New Zealanders. 0:03:08.001 --> 0:03:11.281 Well, I'm extremely concerned, but bear in mind that was 0:03:11.361 --> 0:03:15.121 true over a year ago before the last election under 0:03:15.161 --> 0:03:18.081 the previous government, where I think forty seven percent of 0:03:18.121 --> 0:03:21.681 New Zealanders said they felt the country was becoming more divided. 0:03:22.121 --> 0:03:25.601 And that is because for the last thirty or forty years, 0:03:25.841 --> 0:03:28.961 successive governments have told us that our treaty is a 0:03:29.001 --> 0:03:33.041 partnership between two groups. Those groups are based on ancestry, 0:03:33.361 --> 0:03:35.961 and as soon as you tell people that, the danger 0:03:36.041 --> 0:03:38.201 is they start to believe it. And you've now got 0:03:38.241 --> 0:03:42.201 a lot of people who will truly believe that if 0:03:42.241 --> 0:03:46.401 they are not seen through an ancestral lens as one 0:03:46.401 --> 0:03:49.361 of the treaty partners, not respected, it's targue to Penowa. 0:03:49.841 --> 0:03:52.961 Then you're taking something from them. And when you say, well, actually, 0:03:53.281 --> 0:03:56.041 what we're promising is equal rights for all citizens and 0:03:56.521 --> 0:03:59.481 a liberal democracy, they must be the only people in 0:03:59.521 --> 0:04:02.721 the world who don't want that, because successive governments have 0:04:02.801 --> 0:04:04.401 built up the expectations they have. 0:04:05.761 --> 0:04:09.801 I've heard a lot of accusations, and some of them 0:04:09.801 --> 0:04:13.081 are impugning your integrity and your motives behind it, saying that, look, 0:04:13.081 --> 0:04:15.561 you're just doing this because it's a pathway for ACT 0:04:15.561 --> 0:04:17.721 to get more support from people who think the same way. 0:04:17.761 --> 0:04:20.561 But I thought i'd give you a chance to answer 0:04:20.641 --> 0:04:24.281 those critics who are saying this is a cynical political ploy. 0:04:25.721 --> 0:04:29.121 There's a great line in Shakespeare measuring the minds of 0:04:29.161 --> 0:04:31.881 others by one's own and I suspect some of the 0:04:31.921 --> 0:04:35.001 people who are saying that are saying it because that's 0:04:35.001 --> 0:04:38.081 how they would think. And I'm sorry if that's the case. 0:04:38.481 --> 0:04:40.841 But I can tell you the reason that I'm doing 0:04:40.881 --> 0:04:43.921 this is not because it's easy, not because I like 0:04:44.041 --> 0:04:46.961 the amount of criticism and abuse I seem to be 0:04:47.041 --> 0:04:51.201 copping from some quarters. It's probably not the easiest way 0:04:51.441 --> 0:04:54.161 to promote the Act Party, and there's some risk that 0:04:54.201 --> 0:04:57.481 people will turn against you for taking a controversial stand. 0:04:58.081 --> 0:05:01.921 But throughout my career, whether it's been the earthquake regulations, 0:05:01.961 --> 0:05:04.281 I was the only one to oppose them. Everyone said, 0:05:04.321 --> 0:05:06.601 how could you in the of the christ Church tragedy 0:05:06.921 --> 0:05:09.881 that cost tens of billions of dollars, nowhereal benefit. Now 0:05:09.921 --> 0:05:13.321 the government's reversing them. The firearm laws after March for then, 0:05:13.401 --> 0:05:15.401 people said, how could you? I think if you look 0:05:15.401 --> 0:05:18.081 at the rise of gun violence after they banned all 0:05:18.081 --> 0:05:22.041 those firearms, that just disappeared and made place more dangerous. 0:05:22.081 --> 0:05:25.241 I was actually right about that. And again assisted dying 0:05:25.321 --> 0:05:28.361 or euthanasia. We've just had three years of assisted dying 0:05:28.401 --> 0:05:31.201 being legal in New Zealand. At the time people said 0:05:31.201 --> 0:05:33.681 all sorts of biviest things about how terrible I was, 0:05:34.041 --> 0:05:36.121 but it was the right thing to do. And once again, 0:05:36.961 --> 0:05:40.121 you know, I believe that equal rights forfort the law 0:05:40.441 --> 0:05:43.121 are the only basis for a successful society and the 0:05:43.161 --> 0:05:46.041 only way we'll solve all of those other problems such 0:05:46.041 --> 0:05:49.401 as housing and health and education and economic growth which 0:05:49.441 --> 0:05:52.081 may seem more urgent but are harder to do when 0:05:52.081 --> 0:05:54.121 you have this deviceive constitutional base. 0:05:54.441 --> 0:05:57.521 Yeah, I was when I was chatting with Duncan web 0:05:57.561 --> 0:06:02.161 about this, and we lightheartedly referred to the reference from 0:06:02.201 --> 0:06:04.241 the movie The Castle AND's the vibe and everything, But 0:06:04.281 --> 0:06:06.521 that was on the It's basically connected with the idea 0:06:06.601 --> 0:06:11.161 that the principles are sort of fluid and they've decided 0:06:11.161 --> 0:06:15.001 on a case by case basis. Is there in a 0:06:15.041 --> 0:06:17.561 way I'm going to ask you to argue against your 0:06:17.601 --> 0:06:20.201 own position a little bit, But is there some sort 0:06:20.241 --> 0:06:22.041 of strength in the fact that we do have a 0:06:22.081 --> 0:06:26.721 sort of fluidity to these principles and the dangers locking 0:06:26.721 --> 0:06:29.881 them in in legislation. 0:06:31.521 --> 0:06:34.361 Well, the main thing that people want from the law 0:06:34.601 --> 0:06:36.961 is certainty, because if you know what the law is, 0:06:37.561 --> 0:06:40.801 then you're able to make investment decisions and all sorts 0:06:40.841 --> 0:06:42.721 of choices about how you're going to live your life 0:06:42.761 --> 0:06:45.161 because you know how you're going to be treated under 0:06:45.161 --> 0:06:48.041 the law in different circumstances. I would argue what we 0:06:48.161 --> 0:06:51.561 have right now is great uncertainty. You only have to 0:06:51.561 --> 0:06:54.361 look at the Resource Management Acts under our current conception 0:06:54.401 --> 0:06:57.241 of the Treaty. I was talking to someone just this week. 0:06:57.281 --> 0:06:59.561 They've been trying to do a major consent. It's been 0:06:59.601 --> 0:07:04.081 held up for four years because RNA requires you to 0:07:04.361 --> 0:07:09.361 consult locally. Some agree, one doesn't, and as a result 0:07:09.921 --> 0:07:13.121 it's been held up for years being developed. Now. I 0:07:13.161 --> 0:07:16.041 think that's just shocking. It's a good example of how 0:07:16.561 --> 0:07:19.121 not having the kind of certainty my bill provides, where 0:07:19.121 --> 0:07:21.161 we say, look, but these are the principles everyone has 0:07:21.161 --> 0:07:25.121 Ecore runs. That is actually what we really need from 0:07:25.161 --> 0:07:25.401 a law. 0:07:25.761 --> 0:07:29.081 I guess National would say, look, we can change that 0:07:29.201 --> 0:07:32.961 legislation without having to bring in a principles bill. What 0:07:32.961 --> 0:07:33.561 do you say to. 0:07:33.521 --> 0:07:36.921 That, Well, I think that's one of the arguments that 0:07:36.961 --> 0:07:39.721 the National Party make is that well, yes, but we've 0:07:39.721 --> 0:07:42.121 got rid of Maori Health Authority, we've got rid of 0:07:42.121 --> 0:07:44.721 the co governance and three wards we're changing back the 0:07:44.881 --> 0:07:48.521 Maori wards. We're doing a review of treaty principles in 0:07:48.561 --> 0:07:51.921 some but not all laws, and therefore there's no need 0:07:52.001 --> 0:07:56.081 to get to the core of the Treaty of Bytoni's 0:07:56.121 --> 0:07:59.721 meaning and right about the fact that they're doing it 0:08:00.041 --> 0:08:04.761 and at wholeheartedly supports all of those initiatives and more. However, 0:08:05.961 --> 0:08:10.361 it's also true that we have a whole lot of 0:08:10.401 --> 0:08:13.841 policies that came about because of this idea that the 0:08:13.881 --> 0:08:17.481 treaty created a partnership between two groups based on ancestry. 0:08:17.761 --> 0:08:20.321 And the thing is labor get back in. And this 0:08:20.441 --> 0:08:23.201 is a democracy. I mean, chances are there'll be a 0:08:23.281 --> 0:08:25.881 change to a government from the left at some point 0:08:25.921 --> 0:08:30.801 in the next decade, and when that happens, they will, 0:08:30.841 --> 0:08:33.521 at the stroke of a pen, pick up the ideas 0:08:33.561 --> 0:08:37.801 that are lying around and reinstate all of those policies, 0:08:38.121 --> 0:08:41.041 and we will go one step further down this device 0:08:41.081 --> 0:08:41.481 of path. 0:08:41.721 --> 0:08:44.681 What's the best argument you've heard against your position? 0:08:47.121 --> 0:08:51.201 Well, I think that there are people who say that 0:08:51.241 --> 0:08:54.681 the Parliament should stay out of it and leave it 0:08:54.761 --> 0:08:58.961 up to the judges to interpret a contract between the 0:08:59.041 --> 0:09:05.281 chiefs and the crown. And that's a fine argument so 0:09:05.321 --> 0:09:07.881 far as it goes. The reason I don't buy that 0:09:08.041 --> 0:09:12.321 argument is that ultimately you've got to actually make constitutional 0:09:12.321 --> 0:09:15.481 settings that work. So if they were left to their 0:09:15.481 --> 0:09:18.761 own devices, they would take us to a place where 0:09:18.761 --> 0:09:21.761 there are tongas of Fenua land people tongue to TVT 0:09:22.241 --> 0:09:24.841 everyone else's. It's kind of here by dinta for treaty. 0:09:25.241 --> 0:09:28.961 And there are no successful models of societies that divide 0:09:29.001 --> 0:09:32.721 their citizens with different places in society based on ancestry. 0:09:33.521 --> 0:09:34.921 Are you going to be meeting the Hakoi? 0:09:36.561 --> 0:09:39.161 Well a week ago I was quite keen to then 0:09:39.481 --> 0:09:43.801 one of the leaders, du Kapakini, who is actually the 0:09:43.881 --> 0:09:46.961 son of a to Party of Maori and p Maori 0:09:47.041 --> 0:09:50.001 Party employee. As far as I can tell, he's on 0:09:50.041 --> 0:09:53.841 the Parliamentary Directory of Staff. He's the leader, and he 0:09:53.881 --> 0:09:55.401 said he doesn't want to talk to me because I 0:09:55.441 --> 0:09:58.481 don't speak Maori. And then I watched the behavior of 0:09:58.601 --> 0:10:02.121 two party mary in our parliament, which frankly is embarrassed 0:10:02.161 --> 0:10:05.001 New Zealand. Globally. They won't care, they'll think it's great, 0:10:05.201 --> 0:10:07.921 but I think it will have embarrassed New Zealand globally. 0:10:08.441 --> 0:10:12.201 They're going to look at that and I'm sorry, I'm 0:10:12.201 --> 0:10:15.081 going to look at that and say well, you know, 0:10:15.161 --> 0:10:18.121 as this becomes more and more clearly your Mari Party project, 0:10:19.841 --> 0:10:24.161 do I want to be a part of that? Can? 0:10:24.201 --> 0:10:30.281 I hope to have a decent exchange and communication with protest. 0:10:30.641 --> 0:10:33.121 It's been organized by the same people that were responsible 0:10:33.161 --> 0:10:35.561 for that display in Parliament this week, So I'm becoming 0:10:35.761 --> 0:10:37.441 a bit more hesitant. I've got to say. 0:10:39.281 --> 0:10:41.641 Look, I mentioned that you've learned in life that you know, 0:10:41.641 --> 0:10:45.961 there's one thing to have a discussion based on recent arguments, 0:10:46.001 --> 0:10:48.321 and even if you were right on this, depending on 0:10:48.321 --> 0:10:51.681 people's point of view, there's also the political argument, which 0:10:51.721 --> 0:10:54.601 you can lose whether you're right or not. Is there 0:10:54.601 --> 0:10:57.761 a point where if you feel you're losing the political argument, 0:10:58.401 --> 0:11:00.321 you might change your approach on this or you just 0:11:00.441 --> 0:11:01.561 we're just going to see this through. 0:11:03.361 --> 0:11:06.561 Well, I mean right now. Well, it's in the hands 0:11:06.561 --> 0:11:10.041 of the Select Committee. There's a coalition commitment that they're 0:11:10.041 --> 0:11:12.721 going to do six months of hearings and give people 0:11:12.801 --> 0:11:16.201 the choice. I find it difficult. So the major change 0:11:16.241 --> 0:11:18.281 you could make is to say you no longer want 0:11:18.281 --> 0:11:21.241 to do that. I find it difficult to believe that 0:11:21.281 --> 0:11:25.281 there's any benefit and saying no New Zealanders shouldn't be 0:11:25.321 --> 0:11:28.681 able to have a say on this bill, So that's 0:11:28.721 --> 0:11:31.481 probably the even and I don't know if I really 0:11:31.481 --> 0:11:33.161 even have the power to change that, to be honest, 0:11:33.241 --> 0:11:36.481 So no, I mean, you know, as I have all along, 0:11:37.641 --> 0:11:40.241 I meet people with reasoned arguments, and I just constantly 0:11:40.321 --> 0:11:42.721 say the people, which part of the bill do you oppose? 0:11:42.841 --> 0:11:45.401 Is the government having the right to govern equal rights? 0:11:45.441 --> 0:11:50.521 What are you against? And second of all, how is 0:11:50.561 --> 0:11:53.241 this world you propose supposed to work where you've got 0:11:53.281 --> 0:11:57.201 two groups of people divided by their ancestry trying to 0:11:56.961 --> 0:11:58.961 work together. Pretty difficult to see how. 0:11:58.841 --> 0:12:01.561 That works, I guess as part of that question. And 0:12:01.601 --> 0:12:03.521 I know it's a difficult for a politician to answer 0:12:03.521 --> 0:12:05.001 this question because you've got to stick to your gun. 0:12:05.681 --> 0:12:08.201 But you know, we can all set it ramping up 0:12:08.241 --> 0:12:10.721 in the drama that it creates, and I don't want 0:12:10.761 --> 0:12:13.481 to catastrophize that either, as we've seen from comments like 0:12:13.561 --> 0:12:16.681 Jenny Shipley. But do you have moments where you know 0:12:16.841 --> 0:12:17.961 you have a bit of time to yourself and you 0:12:17.961 --> 0:12:19.241 still look at yourself in the mornin and think, oh 0:12:19.321 --> 0:12:21.321 goodness me, what am I? What am I doing? Do 0:12:21.361 --> 0:12:23.161 you have a moments when you sort of think, should 0:12:23.161 --> 0:12:23.881 I persist with this? 0:12:25.961 --> 0:12:28.601 Well? I do occasionally, and then I just come back 0:12:28.641 --> 0:12:31.481 to Okay, do I want to live in a country 0:12:32.121 --> 0:12:38.001 which is officially divided by people's ancestry? So it doesn't 0:12:38.001 --> 0:12:41.361 take it very long to come back to know. I 0:12:41.921 --> 0:12:44.441 want people who believe in that have the opportunity to 0:12:44.681 --> 0:12:48.081 explain to New Zealand why they believe that they have 0:12:48.441 --> 0:12:52.041 special rights based on birth. But the New zealand And 0:12:52.121 --> 0:12:55.001 I want them to explain where in the world has 0:12:55.001 --> 0:12:58.801 it been successful to divide citizens up who their ancestors were. 0:12:58.921 --> 0:13:00.281 Do you think we'll be able to turn down the 0:13:00.281 --> 0:13:03.961 temperature of the conversation eventually? Is the select committee process 0:13:04.041 --> 0:13:07.041 goes on or is it? What are your thoughts about that? 0:13:07.281 --> 0:13:08.761 Can we have a mature conversation? 0:13:09.841 --> 0:13:13.521 Well, I suspect at some point the Maori Party support 0:13:13.601 --> 0:13:16.281 us are going to start assume themselves. You know, where 0:13:16.281 --> 0:13:18.401 are these guys taking us? How's this going to get 0:13:18.441 --> 0:13:23.241 me better health, housing, education and economy? Because they're not 0:13:23.281 --> 0:13:26.401 providing any solutions other than everything has to be mari 0:13:26.881 --> 0:13:29.081 And the truth is that, you know, there's a range 0:13:29.081 --> 0:13:34.641 of people across New very deeply into tow Maori others 0:13:34.721 --> 0:13:38.081 less so, and what we all need to do together 0:13:38.201 --> 0:13:40.601 is figure out how to build more roads and infrastructure. 0:13:41.201 --> 0:13:44.281 The Treaty Principles Bill would give a better basis constitutionally 0:13:44.321 --> 0:13:48.201 for doing those things, because we wouldn't have this constant division. 0:13:49.361 --> 0:13:53.601 But you know, I think at some point they're going 0:13:53.641 --> 0:13:55.121 to have to ask themselves what they're doing. 0:13:56.201 --> 0:13:58.321 I guess it's I mean, we've almost put the Marray 0:13:58.361 --> 0:14:00.121 party one side, because there are people who are not 0:14:00.241 --> 0:14:03.041 on that side of the ledger who are still I 0:14:03.081 --> 0:14:04.681 mean in terms of the middle, do you think we'll 0:14:04.681 --> 0:14:08.921 be able to have a rational discussion excluding that side 0:14:08.921 --> 0:14:09.321 of things. 0:14:11.521 --> 0:14:16.001 Well, that's certainly what I set out to achieve. And 0:14:16.161 --> 0:14:18.961 you know the way I carry myself and the arguments 0:14:19.001 --> 0:14:22.001 I make, I just stick to the basic questions. Some 0:14:22.041 --> 0:14:25.201 people say it's simple, Well, you know, my questions are 0:14:25.721 --> 0:14:28.801 where has a society as they propose being a success, 0:14:28.881 --> 0:14:31.121 if anywhere in history? Because I can point to you 0:14:31.161 --> 0:14:36.161 to lots of disastrous examples. And second of all, you know, 0:14:36.281 --> 0:14:39.641 what exactly about the bill do you dislike? And I 0:14:39.761 --> 0:14:42.801 urge people to go to Treaty dot in z online 0:14:43.041 --> 0:14:46.081 and actually read through from the horse's mouth as it were, 0:14:46.921 --> 0:14:48.841 what the Treaty Principal's Bill actually is about. 0:14:49.681 --> 0:14:52.201 Okay, hey, David, I really appreciate your time this afternoon, 0:14:52.961 --> 0:14:56.201 and good luck with everything, and we'll talk to again sometime. 0:14:56.841 --> 0:14:59.201 No worries, and once again, that was treaty dot in 0:14:59.361 --> 0:15:00.441 z Jeers. 0:15:00.481 --> 0:15:02.921 Thanks very much. That's Act Party leader and the author 0:15:02.961 --> 0:15:06.121 of the Treaty Principal's Bill, David Seymour. 0:15:06.801 --> 0:15:09.561 For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News 0:15:09.641 --> 0:15:13.281 Talk ZEDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast 0:15:13.361 --> 0:15:14.281 on iHeartRadio.