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Speaker 1: New Zealand first seemed to be occupying themselves with gender

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Speaker 1: issues these days. They did have that bathroom bill seemingly

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Speaker 1: went nowhere because it has been replaced by the Campaign

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Speaker 1: to Define Men and Women. It's a member's bill. It's

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Speaker 1: been introduced to clarify the two genders. The move followers,

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Speaker 1: of course, the Supreme Court ruling in Britain last week

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Speaker 1: Speak Up for women, Susanne Levy is, well, this is

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Speaker 1: and good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Oh, good morning, Mike.

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Speaker 1: What's your sense of this as an issue in this

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Speaker 1: country right now?

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Speaker 2: Oh, this is definitely an issue in this country. If

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Speaker 2: you're a woman or a parent, you should be concerned

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Speaker 2: about whether or not spaces that are designated for women

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Speaker 2: and are in fact reserved for women. And you know,

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Speaker 2: our laws need to be workable and definable. There's no

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Speaker 2: sort of place in them for subjective terms. Sex has

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Speaker 2: really never had any other meaning than biological sex. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I think that the UK Supreme Court ruling

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Speaker 2: kind of you know, you know, reminded us of that,

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Speaker 2: sort of reminded everybody everybody of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was a unanimous ruling, wasn't It was fairly

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Speaker 1: clear cut what do we need our own I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know technically we probably do, but why can't we

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Speaker 1: just go see that British thing? We're kind of British,

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Speaker 1: we do that too well.

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, I mean we have they have the equalities

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Speaker 3: that we have. The Human Rights Act are very similar

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Speaker 3: and they're not identical. You know, we won't just go

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Speaker 3: you know, we're just like the UK will do the same,

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Speaker 3: but we will definitely our lawmakers will definitely lock to

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Speaker 3: that ruling. It's not irrelevant to New Zealand at all.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, it's a member's bill. It needs to

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Speaker 1: be pulled out. It'd be interesting to know whether it

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Speaker 1: was a conscience vote. If it was a conscience vote,

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Speaker 1: do you reckon it would pass the parliament?

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Speaker 2: That's that's a tough one. It was a conscience vote,

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Speaker 2: I think it, I think it could. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: there are so many, so many people that you talk

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Speaker 2: to that won't say it, won't say it out loud.

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Speaker 2: I'll say, you know, of course people can't change sex.

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Speaker 2: Of course sex is real, but they're not prepared to

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Speaker 2: sort of go out and say that, so they would

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Speaker 2: get pressure. There would be a lot of pressure on

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Speaker 2: MPs from constituents to vote that way. Certainly polling would

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Speaker 2: indicate that, you know, all the polling that's been done

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Speaker 2: on these sorts of issues indicates people don't really think

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Speaker 2: that you can change sex. They don't think that trans

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Speaker 2: people should be treated poorly, but at the same time,

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Speaker 2: they don't think that you can actually change sex.

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Speaker 1: So it's also just a definition things for the practicalities

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Speaker 1: of like bathrooms. What do you do though, now here's

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Speaker 1: your next question. In Britain at the moment, they're having

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Speaker 1: trouble implementing it, so a lot of hospitals, universities are going, well,

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Speaker 1: what do we do? How do we do it? So

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Speaker 1: we got this law up and it was not dissimilar

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Speaker 1: to Britain, and then everyone started going, well, I can't

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Speaker 1: do this and I can't do that in the can't

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Speaker 1: so the implementation becomes a problem.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I would say to that is of organizations

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Speaker 2: like you know, gender Minority had spent the last five

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Speaker 2: or ten years aplicating for spaces for trans identifying people

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Speaker 2: rather than focusing on co opting women's spaces, we would

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Speaker 2: all be a hell of a lot better off. I

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Speaker 2: think we do have a good, good range of universal

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Speaker 2: spaces here. You know, we've got quite a few gender

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Speaker 2: neutral spaces, and I think would be a matter of

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Speaker 2: working on that. You know, as a woman's rights organization,

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Speaker 2: it's not really our job to advocate for those third spaces,

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Speaker 2: but we have been we've been suggesting to counsels that

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Speaker 2: they implement these sort of universal changing spaces, which you know,

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Speaker 2: do give people who aren't comfortable changing in the in

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Speaker 2: the facility that matches their sex, you know, somewhere to

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Speaker 2: change that that's safe. So you know that there are differently,

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Speaker 2: there are ways, there are ways around it. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: the focus has just been so much on well, you know,

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Speaker 2: we want to use women's spaces, so you know, so

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Speaker 2: I think we need to sort of roll that back

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Speaker 2: and look look at practical, practical solutions universal spaces, but

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Speaker 2: keeping single sex spaces as well. So you know, So,

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Speaker 2: so women have somewhere that's just for them, Men have

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Speaker 2: somewhere that's just for them, And if you don't feel

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Speaker 2: like that's somewhere you want.

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Speaker 1: To change, then you got a third space.

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Speaker 2: Then is a third space?

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Speaker 1: All right? Well, let's see where it goes. Is and

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Speaker 1: as I say, it's members Bill and we've got to

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Speaker 1: be pulled out of the old biscuit tin and then

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Speaker 1: it'll be fascinating. But we'll talk to Mark and Ginny

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Speaker 1: about this after eight o'clock this morning. Susan Leber, who's

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Speaker 1: Speak Up for Women spokesperson. For more from the mic

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Speaker 1: Asking Breakfast, Listen live to news talks.

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Speaker 3: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast

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