Speaker 1: Kielder. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A
Speaker 1: New Zealand citizen and her son have been detained by
Speaker 1: Ice in the US. Sarah Show and her six year
Speaker 1: old son were detained at the Canadian border after she
Speaker 1: drove her two eldest children to a Vancouver airport for
Speaker 1: a flight to New Zealand to visit their grandparents. The
Speaker 1: pair are currently sitting in a detention facility in Texas.
Speaker 1: They are two of tens of thousands of people who
Speaker 1: are currently being detained by the agency. Most do not
Speaker 1: have a criminal conviction and are classified as being no
Speaker 1: threat to society. Today on the Front Page, American immigration
Speaker 1: lawyer Minda Thorwood, who was representing the Kiwi being detec
Speaker 1: is with us to discuss Sarah's case and the wider
Speaker 1: issues around US immigration. Linda tell me about Sarah's case,
Speaker 1: how did she and her young son end up in
Speaker 1: a detention center in Texas?
Speaker 2: So she made an error like it was kind of
Speaker 2: an administrative error. She has a pending petition and also
Speaker 2: along with the petition, an application to adjust her status
Speaker 2: to permanent residency here, and along with that application, she
Speaker 2: has the right to work and also travel and return.
Speaker 2: And so in that situation, a combo card is issued
Speaker 2: that is used both as a work permit and as
Speaker 2: a travel document. And when she renewed her travel document
Speaker 2: back in March, she didn't choose to renew her work
Speaker 2: permit because she had no travel plans at that time.
Speaker 2: But when she got her receipt three months later in
Speaker 2: June extending the card, mistakenly believe that it also extended
Speaker 2: her travel document, and so she took her child to
Speaker 2: her children to Canada so that they could fly direct
Speaker 2: to New Zealand to see their grandparents, and then on
Speaker 2: her way back in you know, she was detained. She
Speaker 2: was not permitted to enter because she didn't have a
Speaker 2: valid travel document.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read that some protocols weren't followed through, like
Speaker 1: they weren't put into some kind of tracking system for
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Can you explain what that is
Speaker 1: to me?
Speaker 2: I think probably what you're referring to is the ICE
Speaker 2: detaining locator system, And what's supposed to happen is that
Speaker 2: when a person is detained by ICE, their information is
Speaker 2: immediately uploaded to a system based on their alien registration
Speaker 2: number so that their lawyers and their family can find
Speaker 2: where they're detained and also you know, contact the facility
Speaker 2: arranged for local council if needed, that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and they were not put into that system. And we've
Speaker 2: been seeing that more and more. Actually a lot of
Speaker 2: folks who are being detained or not put in the
Speaker 2: system because it is you know, a system of accountability,
Speaker 2: and I think that's something the administration is not looking
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: That sounds terrifying that she hasn't spoken to her family
Speaker 1: or her children and they have literally no idea where
Speaker 1: she is.
Speaker 2: I mean she called me right away, so you know,
Speaker 2: I knew, you know, the day after she was detained
Speaker 2: where she was. And she's also been in touch with
Speaker 2: another friend so she can call out. But had she
Speaker 2: not been able to do that, like, had she not
Speaker 2: you know, money to put on a phone account, we
Speaker 2: would not have been able to find her. So and yes,
Speaker 2: it is very stressful and very terrifying.
Speaker 1: So what are the next steps now?
Speaker 2: So now we're we're waiting for USCIS to adjudicate her petition.
Speaker 2: I've filed a Van Dama's complaint. There was an interview
Speaker 2: today and we're just waiting to find out what happens,
Speaker 2: and then from there it's kind of going to be
Speaker 2: up to DHS in a lot of ways. So once
Speaker 2: the petition is approved, she's eligible to adjust her status
Speaker 2: to become a permanent resident. She's still eligible. That hasn't changed,
Speaker 2: and so the question is whether she'd be doing that
Speaker 2: before a judge an immigration court, or doing that affirmatively
Speaker 2: before cis if her proceedings are terminated and her son,
Speaker 2: you know, he has a travel document, so he's he can,
Speaker 2: he's admissible. There's no reason that he should be in attention.
Speaker 2: It's unlawful, and nor should he be in a rule
Speaker 2: of proceedings because he was authorized to travel and come
Speaker 2: back and has a valid pending adjustment application as well.
Speaker 1: And how long could all those take.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, I'm hoping the petition is adjudicated the
Speaker 2: next couple of weeks. I really can't say. I really
Speaker 2: don't know, and then beyond that, it's really uncertain she
Speaker 2: could I mean hopefully. I mean, if all things go
Speaker 2: exceptionally fast, i'd say it all taken care of within
Speaker 2: a few months. But I mean people are in rural
Speaker 2: proceedings for years and years. I don't think that's going
Speaker 2: to happen here because of so much pressure from elected
Speaker 2: representatives and so much media attention. But it is something
Speaker 2: that does happen well.
Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is not everyone has
Speaker 1: the luxury, like you said, even to have money to
Speaker 1: put on a phone card, to be able to call
Speaker 1: the lawyer or the media. Attention or of her place
Speaker 1: of work. I think has been really vocal as well.
Speaker 2: She's got a groundswell of support here for sure.
Speaker 1: And too here in New Zealand, we often hear about
Speaker 1: these things. We hear about stories of tourists getting detained.
Speaker 1: For example, we see videos of people being plucked off
Speaker 1: of the street. Is there a real threat of this
Speaker 1: happening to Kiwis who may be traveling in the US?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think there's a real threat to anyone, unfortunately, anyone.
Speaker 2: I think the threat is much greater for people who
Speaker 2: are not white, unfortunately. I think that's a very sad
Speaker 2: thing to say in twenty twenty five in the United States,
Speaker 2: but that is that is a true statement. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I think there's going to be a lot more draconian
Speaker 2: enforcement of just people who are overseeing their be visas,
Speaker 2: even innocently, you know, just I'm you know, somebody's here
Speaker 2: on vacation and having a good time, and maybe they're
Speaker 2: young and they're not paying attention. Like there's just going
Speaker 2: to be some really you know, just like I said,
Speaker 2: d'arconian enforcement happening.
Speaker 4: Your Secretary of State says everyone who's here, citizens and
Speaker 4: non citizens, deserve to process. Do you agree, mister, I
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 5: I'm not a lawyer.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Well, the Fifth Amendment, I don't know.
Speaker 5: It seems it might say that, But if you're talking
Speaker 5: about that, then we'd have to have a million or
Speaker 5: two million, or three million trials. We have thousands of
Speaker 5: people that are some murderers and some drug dealers and
Speaker 5: some of the worst people on earth, but some of
Speaker 5: the worst, most dangerous people on earth. And I was
Speaker 5: elected to get them the hell out of here, and
Speaker 5: the courts are holding me from doing it.
Speaker 4: But even given those numbers that you're talking about, don't
Speaker 4: you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States
Speaker 4: as present?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 1: What advice do you have for people who may get
Speaker 1: picked up by an ICE officer, for example, what are
Speaker 1: your rights?
Speaker 2: So you do have a right to contact a lawyer.
Speaker 2: You do have a right to be represented by a
Speaker 2: lawyer at your own expense. So it's not like a
Speaker 2: criminal case where you would be provided representation by the government.
Speaker 2: You have to pay for it yourself. But you do
Speaker 2: have those rights, and I mean there are other rights
Speaker 2: as well. You know, I would say if it's possible
Speaker 2: to remain silent. People are really bullied into admitting things
Speaker 2: to law enforcement when they actually should should say, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I unless there are US citizen and they're
Speaker 2: just trying to assert that right. You know, I have
Speaker 2: a US citizen, don't attain me. Everyone else if there
Speaker 2: are immigration status is uncertain or they don't they're afraid,
Speaker 2: then just say I want to speak to earlier and
Speaker 2: that's it.
Speaker 1: Do you think ICE has gone too far in its
Speaker 1: enforcement of immigration laws in the US?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it has absolutely gone too far. I mean, nobody
Speaker 2: wants to live in a police state.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I mean that is what has been so wonderful about
Speaker 2: the US. You know, we've been a beacon of democracy
Speaker 2: for a long time, and that is unfortunately not in danger.
Speaker 2: We are seeing an assault on democracy and solid the
Speaker 2: rule of law, on ice officers detaining US citizens and
Speaker 2: just you know, anyone who has brown skin or an accent.
Speaker 2: I mean, they really are going too far.
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong. But Trump said that he
Speaker 1: wanted to deport the worst of the worst, and presumably
Speaker 1: that meant people with serious criminal convictions. But I read
Speaker 1: a statistic just from last month showing that seventy two
Speaker 1: percent of people detained have in fact no criminal convictions.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't verify that statistic, but that sounds
Speaker 2: right to me. I mean, Trump has been Trump has
Speaker 2: said a lot of things, and much of it has
Speaker 2: not been true. And you know, he's not just going
Speaker 2: after criminals. He's going after everyday people who are just
Speaker 2: hard working people who just don't happen to not have
Speaker 2: the right documents. And that's it. That's the only thing
Speaker 2: they've done is exist in the US without the right papers.
Speaker 2: And it's really unfortunate and just really, I just I
Speaker 2: find I'm horrified by it. Helt to be honest. I mean,
Speaker 2: I practice immigration law for the first ROMP administration, and
Speaker 2: this is just ten times worse, or maybe even a
Speaker 2: thousand times worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that the White House gave the agency
Speaker 1: a quota of three thousand arrests a day, and that's
Speaker 1: up from six hundred and fifty in the first five
Speaker 1: months of Trump's second term. Arrests obviously have shot up,
Speaker 1: But is there a fear that with a quota, I
Speaker 1: guess comes that added pressure on agents therefore problematic enforcement.
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's exactly what's happening. People are trying
Speaker 2: to meet their quotas, and so they're not just attaining
Speaker 2: criminals like there the worst of the worst. They're detaining
Speaker 2: anybody just so they can meet their quota. And I
Speaker 2: think what ends up happening is that when you have
Speaker 2: a quota based system that's focused on numbers instead of
Speaker 2: on people, is that you end up dehumanizing the people
Speaker 2: that are being detained. You don't see that person as
Speaker 2: a person with a family and a job and a
Speaker 2: community here. You see them as just, oh, the thirty
Speaker 2: seventh percent that I rounded up today, we're a thirty
Speaker 2: seventh alien, you know, like we don't even don't use
Speaker 2: the term person. They don't see them as people. They
Speaker 2: just see them as you know, interlopers. And that's just
Speaker 2: not true. These people are all part of our communities
Speaker 2: and they have rights that we should honor.
Speaker 6: You can see an agent using a large hammer to
Speaker 6: break the back passenger window of their car. Mary Lou
Speaker 6: said the agents were focused on her husband Wan, but
Speaker 6: kept calling in Antonio. That's the name of another man
Speaker 6: who lives in their building. Thinking this is a case
Speaker 6: of mistaken identity, Wan called his attorney, who told them
Speaker 6: to stay in the car until she got there. But
Speaker 6: instead of waiting for their lawyer, the agent smashed the
Speaker 6: car window, broke into the vehicle, and dragged the couple out.
Speaker 2: They had no reason to detain him.
Speaker 5: We've been following the rules of this country.
Speaker 4: We're doing things the right way.
Speaker 2: That's why we have a lawyer.
Speaker 3: Right, they're trying to do things the right way. We
Speaker 3: have an assilent process in place. Well, it is not perfect.
Speaker 3: I don't think a key step in it is dice
Speaker 3: smashes your car with a hammer while screaming someone else's
Speaker 3: name at you.
Speaker 1: As an immigration lawyer, I'm assuming that you're very, very busy,
Speaker 1: so thank you for your time, but also, can you
Speaker 1: tell me about a case that sticks out to you,
Speaker 1: perhaps of something like this happening to someone.
Speaker 2: I mean, I stopped doing detained work around the pandemic
Speaker 2: for the most part, just simply because I'm a single parent.
Speaker 2: I just really didn't have the bandwidth for it anymore,
Speaker 2: although I still do a lot of non deteen rule defense.
Speaker 2: But you know, and the people that I was representing previously,
Speaker 2: some of them did have some serious criminal issues, but
Speaker 2: a lot of them also had just like mental health
Speaker 2: issues or addiction issues that were kind of tangled up
Speaker 2: in all of it. So it was a very complicated
Speaker 2: area of immigration law. And I did represent somebody this
Speaker 2: is not really a similar case, but you know, I
Speaker 2: had somebody that I my very first rid of hebeas
Speaker 2: corpus petition that I litergated. The person had been detained
Speaker 2: for seven years and immigration attention and mostly because they
Speaker 2: were mentally ill, they had some mental health issues, and
Speaker 2: they were just found to be dangerous based on that,
Speaker 2: even though it was you know, they weren't, and so
Speaker 2: we ended up they're getting that and getting them released.
Speaker 2: But I do see there is quite a bit of
Speaker 2: unlawfuled attention that does happen.
Speaker 1: Of course, because New Zealand is so far away, we
Speaker 1: do see some real horror stories on the news about
Speaker 1: what's happening there in America. But also I was thinking
Speaker 1: about this this morning, about those stories of communities rallying
Speaker 1: behind their neighbors, so to speak. So their neighbor might
Speaker 1: be an immigrant, and you've got communities saying, well, you're
Speaker 1: not taking them unless you take me. So there's some
Speaker 1: real stories of community spirit and some really nice glimpses
Speaker 1: of hope.
Speaker 2: I suppose, I mean, I would venture that most of
Speaker 2: the US. I mean, even the statistics show that most
Speaker 2: of the US does not support Trump's immigration policies. We
Speaker 2: do not want our neighbors to be scooped up and detained.
Speaker 2: We don't want families ripped apart, we don't want kids
Speaker 2: in cages. Like none of us actually want that. The
Speaker 2: people that want that are a very small percentage of Americans.
Speaker 2: And so it has been really heartening to see so
Speaker 2: much resistance to these policies, to see these communities rallying
Speaker 2: around their community members who are being targeted.
Speaker 1: In your eyes, what needs to happen tomorrow, if you
Speaker 1: had a magic wand to a leading in the situation.
Speaker 2: So many things. But if we're talking about miss jall
Speaker 2: I would just you know, want her release from detention
Speaker 2: and her rule proceedings terminated and for her to continue
Speaker 2: on the process that she was already you know, undertaking.
Speaker 2: So that's that's what I would do if I had
Speaker 2: a magic wand, And I would also just end the
Speaker 2: enforcement policy of the Trump administration as well. Altogether.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, minda.
Speaker 2: Welcome, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow
Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.