1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:01,160 Speaker 1: From warning to you too. 2 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 2: Now as you understand and observe it at the moment, 3 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 2: what do you reckons more important to Australia, the Australia 4 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 2: US relationship or the Australia China relationship as regards to 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: the Pacific Well. 6 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: I think they're both. You know, they're both equally important. 7 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: You know, the relationship with the US is obviously the 8 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: bedrock of our security relationship, and that's whereas the relationship 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: with China is much more focused on economics and that 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: our trade. But you know, the two these two superpowers 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: are absolutely critical partners. But you know, the security relationship, 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: I guess dominates in the American context, and of course 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: trade dominates in the China context. 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 2: So talk about China and the Pacific Sea. Mike Burgess 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: this week ACO said some interesting things about the Chinese 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: and the way they're operating in this part of the world. 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: Does that worry I mean, did that worry you when 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: you were running Australia. 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: Well, look, I think you've got the defense. What you 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: meant by worry, it's it's you know, I'm not a 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: worried do get worried too easily? But the reality is 22 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: that China is a superpower. It is, you know, an 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: economic here equal or close to an equal to the 24 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: United States, and they're seeking to exert influence around the 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: world and in our region. So they're they're here, they're 26 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: part of our region. We you know, we want to 27 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: make sure that we want to maintain strong relations with 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: our Pacific Ireland neighbors. And so for example, when I 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: was Prime Minister, one of the things we did was 30 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: rather than have the Solomons and b and G going 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: to debt with Chinese state owned lenders to Bundai Huawei 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: controlled cable network, we provided one largely out of our 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: aid budget. The court's called the Coral Cable. That's the 34 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: the country's concern. Solomon's and P and G paid for 35 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: about twenty percent of it. We paid thirty percent of it, 36 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: and it's operated by an Australian company called Focus. And 37 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: we thought that was a better outcome from a security 38 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: point of view for US and our neighbors, but also 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: it was a better outcome for them because they weren't 40 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: in debt. I mean, you know, one of the one 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: of you see this with Tonga in particular. One of 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: the problems with developed developing countries and their dealings with 43 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: China is that so much of what they're acquiring is 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: through debt arrangements, which of course they can't you know, 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: they can't afford to repay and they can't afford the service. 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: And so you know, you're better off recognizing the reality 47 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: and providing the economics for this country's need wherever you 48 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: can through the aid budget. 49 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: So what's it about. I mean, look at the Cooks 50 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: and our Foreign Minister Winston Peters. He's always argued, at 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: least to some degree, that the friendship card will count 52 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: for something, right, whereas others argue, look, it's all bottom 53 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: line and checkbook. Does friendship do you think count for anything? 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: Or is it all about the money? 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a I think it's human nature, right, 56 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: I think friendship is very important. But equally, if you're 57 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: broke and you know your friend doesn't have anything much 58 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: to offer you, and someone who is either not been 59 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: a friend for so long or is a very new 60 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: friend has got a lot to offer you, that'll be 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: very attractive. So you know, yeah, I mean the checkbook 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: is very relevant and and you know, and I mean 63 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, one of the issues with Look, when I 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: was PM the then of China leaka Chuan has sadly 65 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: no longer. Lis was keen for us to sign up 66 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: to the Belton Road, which we declined to do. Okay, 67 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: and I said to him at the time, we don't 68 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: have a problem with Belton Road. We're very happy to 69 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: partner with you on Belton Road projects. And you know, 70 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: it's a sensible project. You can have Belton Rode logo 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: on one side and we'll put a big kangaroo on 72 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: the other so that we're involved. But we don't want 73 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: to be signing up to something that is essentially a brand, 74 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, because you don't know what is its content. 75 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: It's a slogan, right and so so we we were 76 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: and I would remain very happy to cooperate with China 77 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: on AID in the Pacific, but it's got to be worthwhile. 78 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: I mean, if you go and you know, provide a million, 79 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: many millions of dollars to build some you know, palatso 80 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: for the Prime Minister, well that may be you know, 81 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: that may not be as useful as building some energy 82 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: infrastructure or some housing for the population. You know, it's 83 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: like it's a it's a question of what the money 84 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: is being spent on so the Unfortunately, a lot of 85 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: if the aid is simply going to if you just 86 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: turn up with a bag of money and you say 87 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: to the government, well, what are your fancies? Will give 88 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: you the money to spend them whatever you like, that 89 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: may actually not be a good application of the aid dollars, 90 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: you know. So, so I think it's and it's a different, 91 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: different perspective. So from our perspective, we've always been very 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: focused on ensuring that the aid we spend in the 93 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: Pacific gets the right development outcomes. In other words, it's 94 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's to restore rising living standards, improving economic circumstances, education, 95 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: all of those things. 96 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: As regards America. From an Australian point of view, explaining 97 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: it to New Zealand is what do you reckon Aucus? 98 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: You know, actually is literally how will it pan out 99 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: and over what period of time? And will it work 100 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: towards something substantive? 101 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: Well, okay, well the answer is that it could. What 102 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: is August AUCUS is above all, an agreement the design 103 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: to deliver nuclear powered submarines for the All Australian Navy. 104 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: That is ninety nine point nine percent of what AUCUS 105 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: is about. The deal involves Australia building a naval base 106 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: for nuclear powered submarines in Perth, a dockyard to support them, 107 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: and the aim is to acquire a number of Virginia 108 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: class secondhand and new Virginia class submarines from the United States, 109 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: which is their main nuclear power submarine. The problem with 110 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: that part of the deal, and I've been pointing this 111 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: out for years now, is that the Americans do not 112 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: have enough for their own mating. They're not producing enough 113 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: to replace retiring boats and they have not been able 114 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: to lift the production rate. And the US legislation makes 115 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: it very clear, and as they've been very open about this, 116 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: that unless they can dramatically increase their production rate ie 117 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: double it, they will not be able to spare any 118 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: for Australia. So the very high likeliquod is it will 119 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: end up with no nuclear powered subs from the Americans 120 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: at all. The longer term plan is for Australia in 121 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: the UK to build a new nuclear powered submarine, the 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: so called SFN Orcus. That is the first one of 123 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: those will not be seen for twenty years. You know, 124 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: it's so long, so way off in future. It's well, 125 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, it is way up in the future and 126 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: you would think the strategic challenges we face through a 127 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: bit nearer terms than that. So you know, I'm not 128 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of AUCUS. I think it's a 129 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: bad deal. I think it's very asymmetric. I mean we 130 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: with the Americans, we're providing them with what they want, 131 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: which is the base, the dockyard, all of that stuff, 132 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: giving the money to go into their submarine industry three 133 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: billion ner s dollars. We have no certainty of getting 134 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: any submarines at all. And that is a risk that 135 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: the Australian government has taken on with it eyes open. 136 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: So if the Aanks, you know, in twenty thirty one, 137 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: say look, we're not producing enough subs for ore on purpose, 138 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: we can't spare you any we can't say we've been dudded, 139 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: because this is a risk that our government took on 140 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: with their eyes open, and it's set out in the legislation. Now, 141 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: what's the other one percent of AUCUS. Well, that's what's 142 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: called Pillar two, and that is supposed to be cooperation 143 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: on strategic technology, cybersecurity, what autonomous systems and so forth. Frankly, 144 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: very little has happened there. None of the three governments 145 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: have put much money into it, and even August boosters 146 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: have said this is totally undercooked and underdone. So it is, 147 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: you know, I mean it could be good. I mean, 148 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: as you know, Australia and the US and the UK 149 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: and New Zealand cooperate on a lot of things, including 150 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: signals intelligence, so there's potential there. The idea was to 151 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: eliminate barriers to trade between the three countries UK, US 152 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: Australia in terms of military technology and equipment. That has 153 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: been partially done, but you know, August Pillar two I 154 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: would say is still a work in progress. So I 155 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's I wouldn't say you could write it off. 156 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: But even people like Abe Denmark, who was one of 157 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: the American officials that was very involved in it in 158 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: the Baden administration, they said that it needs a complete 159 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: rethink and needs some energy put into it. So that's 160 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: that's my assessment of Orcus for you. 161 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: Now, what's your assessment of your party at the moment 162 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: in their current dilemma? 163 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: Oh god, oh what a mess. Well, it's de javous 164 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: all over again, isn't it. I mean, it's you know, 165 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: we've been having the same friend of mine founder in 166 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: the UK found an article I'd written in two thousand 167 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: and nine talking about how the right wing and the 168 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: Liberal Party were turning climate policy and global warming into 169 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: a culture war issue and ignoring the science and rationality. 170 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: And you know, nothing's changed, right it is. I used 171 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: to say when I was in politics, energy policy should 172 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: be guided by nearing an economics, not ideology and idiocy. 173 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: But they're at it again and it is you know, 174 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: you'd have to say about the sort of climate Denia's 175 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: right wingers in the Liberal Party who now control the party, 176 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: there's no question about that. As you could say, they've 177 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: got the memory of goldfish and the dining habits of Piranhas. 178 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: You know, they just they forget I'm doing the same 179 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: thing all over again, grandpag day, every day, and they're 180 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: just constantly tearing into each other. And so you know, 181 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: I don't take anything away from Atney Albanisi for his 182 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: big majority. Congratulations to him, but boy the Dutton and 183 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, the right wingers in the Liberal Party have 184 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: made it very easy for him to get there, and 185 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: they continue to do it and they you know, they 186 00:11:54,760 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: are they hold hardly any city seats in Australia and 187 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: so now they're going out there and you know, putting 188 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: a big sign up which says we don't take climate 189 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: change or the environment seriously because they can quibble with 190 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: all the weasel words they like. But that is what 191 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: the public, that's how the public will see it, which 192 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: is why the and full of moderate liberals that are 193 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: left centrist liberals that are left in the party are 194 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: so so upset. But it is, you know, it's the best. 195 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: It's that they are the best friends the liberal the 196 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: right wingers in the Liberal Party and their friends in 197 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: the media, you know, Murdock media. Mostly they are the 198 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: best friends the labor parties. 199 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: Ever had the Susan Lee survive? I mean, does the 200 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: coalition survive? And how permanent are the problems do you think? 201 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: Well with will Susan survive? They don't know, but you know, 202 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I don't think these you know, people do not give 203 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: it much prospect of surviving. But she could. But you know, 204 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: first time opposition leaders, after you go into opposition generally 205 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: don't have a last very long, and the least in 206 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: the Liberal experience. But if you know, you may hang on. 207 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: Are the problems permanent? Yeah? You know what I think 208 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: they are. I think that I think the problem is 209 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: that the branch membership. You've got to remember, the Liberal Party, 210 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: unlike the Labor Party, who's you know, ultimately it's controlled 211 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: by the unions. The Liberal Party is a genuine grassroots 212 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 1: organization controlled by its members ultimately, and the membership are 213 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: shrunk and it is now increasingly dominated by older people 214 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: who live on a diet of what you might call 215 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: the right wing populist media from places like sky Nears 216 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: Australia and you know, a similar right wing you know, 217 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: are using that term advisedly, but you know what I mean, 218 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: the sort of right wing populist media, and that is 219 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: a you know, they they love cultural wars, so you know, 220 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: the go global warmings a hoax. You know, they want 221 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: to they want to age war on some culture or 222 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: issure or another. And that that was a disastrous for 223 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: dun absolutely disastrous the Darton to the extent that he 224 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: lost his anc because people saw it in Australia. They 225 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: saw this as the Liberals heading down the Trumpian path. 226 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: And you will, we want to maintain good relations with 227 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: the Americans and good relations from and so forth. Australians 228 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: do not want a bar of that kind of politics. 229 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, we've got a very different system here. We've 230 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: got compulsory voting, you know, and you guys know as 231 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: much about our country as we do. You know, compulsory voting, 232 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: preferential voting. It brings our politics to the center. So 233 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: if you want to run off to the extremes and 234 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: basically compete the fall enhances and so, you know, fifteen 235 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: percent of the vote or something, knock yourself out. But 236 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: we're never going to get into government. 237 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: And so what does that mean? Does that mean Albany's 238 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: he's good for three, if not four terms? 239 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: Well, I don't you know, he's he's he's certainly I 240 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: would think he would nothing certain in politics, But I 241 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: would think he'd be very solid favorite to win the 242 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight election. But who knows after that. I mean, 243 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, Anna Domini catches up with all of us. 244 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: But so I don't know Anthony's what is He's sort 245 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: of early sixty one or two or something, So I 246 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: imagine he's got a I would think if I had to, 247 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: you know, if I had to give you a prediction, 248 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: I would say he's got you know, another another one, 249 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: or he's certainly got another one, possibly two elections in him. 250 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: But the real problem for the Libs is, you know, 251 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: party I've led and party which I'm still a member, 252 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: is that you've got these independent teals, you know, who 253 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: are central smaller liberals, the sort of with the kind 254 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: of program and agenda that people used to associate with 255 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: me when I was in politics, they now hold, you know, 256 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: was of half a dozen of what had been our 257 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: safest seats, male seat of Wentworth when you can't you know, 258 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: they say, you can't get a ferry to a Liberal 259 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: Party seat in Sydney anymore, whether it's you know Wentworth 260 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: in the eastern suburbs or Wringer, you know, the Manly 261 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: seat Mckeller to the north of that Bradfield which is 262 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: the North Shore. They're all they're all now independent seats 263 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: held by teals. These are the safest blue ribbon Liberal seats. 264 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: And you know, it's a similar pattern in Earth where 265 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: Curtains seld by an independent Julie bishops Old seat and 266 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: in Melbourne Manique Ryan as the seat of Keel which 267 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: was Josh Frodenberg's. So it's a you know, and if 268 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: you think the way to win those seats back is 269 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: by running off to the populist right. Well you just started. 270 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: You know you've got the wrong memo. 271 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: That brilliant listen, Always a pleasure to catch up. You 272 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: have a good one and a good stay in the country. 273 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: No worries. 274 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: For more from the mic Asking Breakfast listen live to 275 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: news talks. 276 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 277 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.