1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Hilda. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Labor Party 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: leader Chris Hipkins has told the party it must change 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: if it wants to regain the trust it's lost. The 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: party held its annual conference in christ Church at the weekend, 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: the first time its members of met since the twenty 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: twenty three election defeat. The party has inched closer to 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 2: campaigning on a wealth tax or a capital gains tax 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: at the next election after members passed a proposal to 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 2: move the idea forward, and it's made three major promises 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: a full Dneden Hospital, rebuild, rail enabled ferries and not 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: getting involved in orcus. As the coalition government deals with 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: contentious policy and flat pole results. Can Hopkins pull off 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: a win in twenty twenty six? He joins us today 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: on the Front Page to discuss the path ahead for Labor. 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: First off, pres we're a year into this new coalition government. 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: What do you make of it? Oh? I mean, I 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: think the government's had a pretty bumpy start. It was 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: always going to be a challenged for them to pull 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 3: together three parties with quite different views of the world 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: and sort of certainly some personal animosity amongst the party leaders. 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: You know, Winston Peters and David Seymour's dislike for one 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 3: another is well known and clearly hasn't debated since the 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 3: government has been formed. But they've made things worse for 26 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: New Zealand in the decisions that they've taken. So it's 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 3: a challenging time economically around the world at the moment, 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: and the government making decisions to massively cut back government spending, 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: cutback infrastructure projects and so on has actually made a 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: tough economic environment even tougher for. 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: Kiwi's Well, Winston and David haven't ripped each other's heads 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: off in public yet, have they. 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: They've certainly, you know, of anything. They've both been taking 34 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: pop shots at the Prime minister instead, and you know, 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: I think that's somewhat new for New Zealand to see 36 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: the deputy prime Minister from a different party saying that 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: he thinks the Prime Minister is struggling in his job, 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 3: and to have David Seymour and Christopher Luxen basically criticizing 39 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 3: each other in public. I don't think we've seen that before, 40 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: even an MMP where there's agree to disagree. I think 41 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: generally there's still been a respectful relationship between party leaders. 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: Luxeon's leadership has been called into question in recent weeks. 43 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: How do you rank him personally? Like, where do you 44 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: think he sets compared to other former prime ministers? 45 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: I think probably the one and only time you'll find 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: me agreeing with Winston Peters actually is I think he 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 3: is struggling in the job. I think he's brought board 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: a corporate mindset to running the country, and the country 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: isn't a corporation. In a corporation, you can decide to 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: make people redundant and basically then there's someone else's problem, 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: and you can say this group of customers is a 52 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 3: group of customers, We're no longer going to chase as 53 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 3: a company. You don't get to make those sorts of 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: decisions in running a country. Everybody is your problem, everybody 55 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 3: is your customer, everybody is your responsibility. I think he's 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: kind of struggling with that a little bit, because the 57 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 3: process of government doesn't stop just because you've decided that 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: your priorities are elsewhere. 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: Is he a bad prime minister? 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: Oh? I mean people for form their own views about that. 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: I think a lot of new Zealanders think he's a 62 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: bad Prime minister, and I think they've got good grounds 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: for that. 64 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: You've said Labor needs to regain the public's trust after 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: a historic defeat. How are you going to start. 66 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: I think the public want to see us getting back 67 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: to the basics of what Labour stands for, making sure 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: that we are focused on how we can bring the 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: country back together. I think this government's creating a lot 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: of division and they want to know that we have 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: an approach that's going to end that division and bring 72 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: people back together again. And I think also just demonstrating 73 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: that we do know we lost. You know that we 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: have reflected on why we lost and that we change 75 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: as a result of that. You know, we we're not 76 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: going to rerun the twenty twenty three election campaign. That's 77 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 3: a campaign we lost, and so twenty twenty six we 78 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: need to offer different things and we need to be different. 79 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 4: But making sure that we've got inflation now within the 80 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 4: band first time in three and a half years. You've 81 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 4: had three interest rate cuts in twelve months. 82 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. 83 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 4: You've got rising confidence at annual highs right. 84 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: In the last three years. 85 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: Constitution, especially credibility. We see growth. That's what we've got 86 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 4: to call. We're not seeing growth. We're actually again you 87 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 4: can't point to any growth. Get some naive to be 88 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 4: honest with you, to say, look, we had six years 89 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 4: of economic mismanagement and in twelve months we're supposed to 90 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 4: fix that all or at someone I need to say 91 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 4: that the previous government had a credibility problem because they 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 4: pushed the years and government when you're doing exactly the 93 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 4: same thing we've had twelve months. 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: When do you think the cutoff period is when a 95 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 2: new government can stop blaming in old governments for its problems. 96 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: Do you reckon it's about now? 97 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 3: I think it's totally I think it's long gone. Actually, 98 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: I mean they up to their first budget, yep. I 99 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 3: guess you get to say, oh, well, the previous government 100 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 3: made all these decisions and you know we're just having 101 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: to live with those. But once you get through a budget, 102 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: you know that's your chances of government to really reset 103 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: everything and to say well, okay, that spending decisions that 104 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: the government's taken are now ours. And I think you 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: know it's well and truly time for them to accept 106 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 3: responsibility for the fact that under their watch and as 107 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 3: a result of their decisions, the New Zealand economy is 108 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 3: getting worse and key we households are going backwards. 109 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: Isn't the economy getting better? 110 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 3: Though? If you've just lost your job and unemployment is 111 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: forecast to continue to increase, I think you'll find the 112 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 3: economy is getting worse overall. You know, New Zealand is 113 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: not where it needs to be. Other economies are rebounding 114 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: much more healthily than New Zealanders get to. 115 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: The weeknd Labor held its conference in christ Church. Labor 116 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: will build dened In Hospital as it was committed to 117 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: prior to the election in twenty twenty three. Now the 118 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: project's been dogged by delays. There's been a budget overruns. 119 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: The cost has now belonged to three billion dollars from 120 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: an original one point two to one point four in 121 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. How on earth are you planning on paying 122 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: for this? 123 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: To be fair, there were delays in the beginning, but 124 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: actually we have made a lot of progress on We 125 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: did in government make a lot of progress on the 126 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: Darnedan hospital. So the outpatients building, which is about a 127 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: third of the new hospital, is almost finished actually and 128 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: should be opening shortly that's great news for Dunedin in 129 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: terms of the main part of the hospital, so you 130 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: know the part where if you're admitted you stay overnight, 131 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: that that larger part of the hospital. The current government 132 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: have made a number of claims about the cost escalation 133 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: of that that simply don't stack up when closer scrutiny 134 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: is applied. So they've included in this supposed cost blowout 135 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: things that were never the original cost in the first place, 136 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: like car parking buildings and a new lab which was 137 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 3: always visioned probably to be built by a private sector 138 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 3: contracted provider, because that's the way lab services across the 139 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: country often end up being provided. But it all comes 140 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 3: down to choices and trade offs as well. So they 141 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: found two hundred million dollars to give a tax break 142 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: to tobacco, They found nearly three billion dollars for tax 143 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: breaks for landlords, and then overall, I think the tax 144 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: breaks for other kiwis that they gave out it was 145 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: about twelve billion dollars in the budget. So it comes 146 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: down to choices that you make as a government. 147 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: Won't the cost climb even more by the time you're 148 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: in government if you win the cost. 149 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: Of these projects never goes down. But the longer you 150 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: take to do them, the more expensive they become, which 151 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: is one of the reasons why they should just get 152 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: on with it and build the hospital. And my experience 153 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: and I oversaw a lot of school rebuilding projects. You 154 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: just want to get them done. Every time you slow 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: them down for another review, you're just the cashridge is 156 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: to goes kitching, kitchin kitching. You know, all of these 157 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: reviews are one of the reasons why everything, the costs 158 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 3: keep blowing out on everything. 159 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: Also, a publicly owned into island ferry connection, including some 160 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: kind of rail transport. What does that look like, Well. 161 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: It means that we've got to have fairies that you 162 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: can drive trains on and off. And bear in mind 163 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: too that this is about making sure that we've got 164 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 3: the most efficient ferry service for New Zealand. A ferry 165 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: service that you can't drive trains on and off. Ultimately 166 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: then transfers cost back on to freight providers, which then 167 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: transfers cost back on to customers. An investment in a 168 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: reliable ferry service is actually an investment in a productive economy. 169 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 3: Then did Treasury do this thing called a BCR benefit 170 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: to cost ratio analysis. The benefit cost ratio even at 171 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: the higher price for the inter island ferry was something 172 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: like four point eight, So for every dollar you spend 173 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: you get about four point eight dollars back. The cost 174 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: benefit ratio for the billions of dollars they're going to 175 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: spend on the road from Auckland to fungat A is 176 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 3: about one, so you get one dollar back for every 177 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: dollar that you spend. So you know, again it's about 178 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 3: choices and trade offs. This government a choosing to say, well, 179 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: roads are everything, and interrland ferries and rail connections are 180 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 3: not important. Actually they are important because if you want 181 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: better roads, getting freight off the roads and onto rail's 182 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: going to be a good way of delivering that. 183 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: So New Zealand won't be signing up to AUCUST pillar 184 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: two under a labor government. We know that pillar one 185 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: involves the nuclear powered subs, but Pillar two involves sharing 186 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: and developing high tech defense technology. Why this turnaround on 187 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 2: AUCUST Pillar two. 188 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: We've always been very skeptical of UCUS. Aucus fundamentally is 189 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: a nuclear powered submarine pact between those three countries, and 190 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: we're a nuclear free country. 191 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: But that's the pillar one we're looking at Pillar two. 192 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: Now that's the technology and AI aspect of it. 193 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 3: Right, The two things are related though, you know, the 194 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 3: Pacific is a proudly nuclear free region. Who in the 195 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: Pacific countries have made it very clear, and they're very 196 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 3: important relationships for New Zealand that they are also opposed 197 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 3: to Aucus. So I think you can't separate those two 198 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 3: things completely. In terms of coordinating with those other countries 199 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 3: around things like military technology, around things like intelligence sharing, 200 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: we already have arrangements to do that. So you know, 201 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: we have a formal alliance, a formal ally relationship with Australia. 202 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 3: We have a five country relationship with those three countries 203 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: including and then adding Canada into that, which gives us 204 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: access to a lot of the stuff that's happening around 205 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: intelligence but also around technology. And we think that we're 206 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 3: best to stick with those relationships rather than be involved 207 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: in a relationship which is proving to be incredibly antagonistic 208 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: in it within the. 209 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: Region, antagonistic to China, though primarily right, not just China. 210 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: Actually the Pacific of finding have raised a lot of 211 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: concerns about nuclear prospect of nuclear ships in the Pacific 212 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: as well, and so I think we shouldn't be blind 213 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 3: to that. 214 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: Andrew Little's come out backing the current government's decision to 215 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 2: investigate our potential involvement in Pillar two. Here's, of course 216 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: our former Defense Minister and Intelligence Agencies Minister, and of 217 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: course a former leader of the Labor Party. Do you 218 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: trust his judgment? 219 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 3: I think Andrew Little's got you know, he was a 220 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 3: fantastic minister. Doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything. 221 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: We didn't agree on everything when we're in government, and 222 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: I'm sure we won't now, and as a former parliamentary 223 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: and he's free to share his used however he wishes. 224 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: And the parties are passed a proposal to take forward 225 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: work on a capital gains tax and a wealth tax 226 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: and stop any work on other forms of tax. Does 227 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: this mean it'll very likely be a part of your 228 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six campaign. 229 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: Well, I don't comment on the remits that get past 230 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: at conference, but I've said right at the beginning of 231 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: the year that we needed to do work on tax policy, 232 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: and we needed a different tax policy ahead of the 233 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: next selection, which is what we're working on at the moment. 234 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: Any remits that get passed at party conference help to 235 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 3: inform that policy development process. But we're a long way 236 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: away at this point from having a finalized approach to 237 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 3: text because you can't just look at tax and isolation. 238 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: You've also got to look at you know, what are 239 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 3: you taxing for, what are the things that you're funding, 240 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: where's that money going to go, how's it going to 241 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: be applied, what are the consequences for other taxes, and also, 242 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 3: you know, what are the things you're trying to do. 243 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 3: Are you trying to you know, I believe we need 244 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: to incentivize more productive investment in our economy rather than 245 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: speculative investment. 246 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, you ruled out in introducing a 247 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: wealth tax or CGT if re elected. That was before 248 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: the last election. Of course, now it's back on the table. 249 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: Has it got anything to do with labor likely needing 250 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: the Greens and Tabatti Mali in order to form a 251 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: government next time? 252 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 3: No, not at all. I said before the last elections, 253 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 3: As I would say in you know, every election, you 254 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: should form your policies for the next term of government, 255 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: and then if you've got to change those, then you 256 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: change them at the next election so that people can 257 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 3: vote on them. I said when I said that we 258 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: wouldn't implement a wealth tex or a capital gains tax. 259 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: I was very clear that that was the commitment that 260 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: I was making for the next term of government. You know, 261 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 3: should our position change, that were the time we would change, 262 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: that would be at the next election. 263 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: Last week we spoke to politics professor Bryce Edwards and 264 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: asked him about how the opposition parties were performing, and 265 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: he didn't think you guys were doing a great job 266 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: of holding the government to account. 267 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: If you look back on the last year, I think 268 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: the government has had lots of areas that needed to 269 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: be more strongly critiqued on, especially things like the Fast 270 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: Track Act, especially on a lot of the ways that 271 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: it seems to be governing for vested interests or the wealthy. 272 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: And I don't think that Labour's done it a good 273 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: enough job of highlighting some of those. Yeah, those deficits. 274 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? 275 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 3: Well, I disagree. I think if you look at on 276 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: issues that where the government's been divided in the country, 277 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: like the tr Principle spill, you've seen a very united 278 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 3: approach from the opposition parties. If you look at areas 279 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 3: like the health system, for example, I think we've applied 280 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: real pressure to the government on their issues, on the 281 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 3: things that they're trying to do around deregulation of guns. Again, 282 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: I think we've really kind of stepped up the pace 283 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: there in terms of the pressure we've applied. But what 284 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: I've also said, and I think you know New Zealanders 285 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: have a lot of sympathy for this, is they get 286 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 3: sick of politicians criticizing their opponents for doing something that 287 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: they themselves would do, or opposing something which then they 288 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: get into government and do exactly the same thing they've opposed. 289 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 3: So I've said that we're the government are doing things 290 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 3: that we would ourselves do in government. There will be 291 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: constructive rather than obstructive, and I think actually New Zealanders 292 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: want to see that from their politicians. 293 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: What's something the government's done that you've thought that that's 294 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: a good job. 295 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 3: Look, it's kind of difficult because there's not a he 296 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 3: give a lot that I think they've been doing well. 297 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: But I think some of the there are a few 298 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: decisions they've taken that might have some early promise. So 299 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: if I look at the infrastructure space, for example, I 300 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: agree with the government that we need a much longer 301 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: term approach to planning infrastructure investment. The short term nature 302 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: of our thinking around infrastructure in New Zealand is one 303 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: of the reasons we're in the mess we're in now, 304 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: and so if they can come up with things that 305 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: will help the country to achieve that, then I think 306 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: we can be supportive and we can be constructive. 307 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that certainly makes sense when you're talking billions 308 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: of dollars for say a couple of ferries, or billions 309 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: of dollars for a second Auckland bridge, that kind of thing. 310 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: Right absolutely. I mean, if you look at Auckland light Rail, 311 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 3: you know we had work underway on Auckland light Rail. 312 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: It's a big project and I think the time frames 313 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: that we had previously put out were unrealistic and I've 314 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 3: said that, but Auckland is going to need mass, rapid 315 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: transit are given the scale of population growth there. Within 316 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: the next decade, Auckland could have two million people and 317 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 3: you've got to be able to get around. And even 318 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: with more investment and roads, there's still going to be 319 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 3: road congestion. The only way you're going to tackle that 320 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 3: is by making sure that you've got good alternative options, 321 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: which includes public transport. So I think we need a 322 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: plan around Auckland that says, over the next twenty to 323 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: thirty years, what's the transport infrastructure we need. And so 324 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: even if the current government came in and said, Okay, 325 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: we don't think Auckland light rails an immediate priority, why 326 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: scrap it all together? Why not just continue with the planning, 327 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 3: the design, the consenting work so that at a future 328 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 3: point we can continue the momentum on it. Even if 329 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: they said, and their priority for construction is going to 330 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: be new roads, why don't they continue with the planning 331 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 3: on the stuff which they might not want to do immediately. 332 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: I think that is the sort of that's the sort 333 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: of thinking that we need around infrastructure. So I've said 334 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: when we come into government next time, and I want 335 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: that to be after the next selection, That's what I'm 336 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: aiming for. We're not going to stop everything just because 337 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: the previous government started it. I think we've got to 338 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: make sure that we keep the wheels of infrastructure investment 339 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: moving so. 340 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: We look overseas gaffes and controvert your policies didn't really 341 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 2: stop Donald Trump getting re elected last month. Hey, the 342 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: economy and cost of living remains a top priority for 343 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: voters here and overseas. Do you think labor has a 344 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: chance in twenty twenty six, even if the economy picks 345 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: up under. 346 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 3: National I think one of the things that Donald Trump 347 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: tapped into, and I think it's very important for all 348 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 3: Western democracies to think about, is the fact that the 349 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: economy isn't working as it should for a larger and 350 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: larger group of people. So if you look at the US, 351 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 3: for example, under Biden, their economy was growing, they were 352 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 3: creating new jobs, but people weren't feeling that they were 353 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 3: actually feeling at a household level like they were going backwards. 354 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 3: And I think the same thing is happening here is 355 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 3: even if say GDP growth numbers improve, and frankly it'd 356 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 3: be hard for them to do otherwise given how bad 357 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 3: they've been. But even if they do start to improve, 358 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: then if people are still feeling like, oh, our household 359 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 3: costs are still going up, our salary and wages aren't 360 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 3: going up, and we feel like we're going backwards. Think 361 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: that's the space where I think we're very rightly frustrated. 362 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 3: And I think if you look over the last forty 363 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 3: odd years since we embarked on some pretty radical reforms 364 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties New Zealand households. A lot of 365 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 3: New Zealand households have been going backwards. 366 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 2: And finally, Chris, while we're on Trump, he managed to 367 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: of course, when reelection after a defeat, are you confident 368 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: you can do the same in twenty twenty six. 369 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't think that. 370 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 3: You know, we're getting really strong support from New Zealanders, 371 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: even you know, when I've been out and about, there's 372 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 3: plenty of people who have come up and said, look, 373 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 3: we didn't vote for you last time because x Y 374 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: and Z, but we're open to voting for you next time. 375 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: What was x Y and Z? 376 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: Oh's the things that we just talked about before, you know, 377 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: cost of living, crime. I think people just wanted to 378 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: get over COVID. They just wanted to forget about it 379 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 3: and move on. And also the fact that they were 380 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 3: a bit dissatisfied with the fact that we had taken 381 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 3: on so many big reform projects all at once, and 382 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: they wanted a sense that we were focusing on getting 383 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: the basics right. So those are all messages that. 384 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: We've heard and Are you personally committed to lead labor 385 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: into the next election? Will you be heading Labor? 386 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: I absolutely will be wonderful. 387 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Chress. 388 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 3: Good as Gold, happy to talk to you. 389 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 390 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 391 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 392 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 393 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 394 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 395 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.