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Speaker 1: Okay. Donald Trump has described Gaza as a demolition site

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Speaker 1: and suggested to clean the whole thing, clean out the

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Speaker 1: whole thing exact words, either temporarily or for the long

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Speaker 1: term to allow rebuild. He wants Egypt and Jordan to

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Speaker 1: take in Palestinian some Gaza. It's not the first time

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Speaker 1: he's floated this idea. Last week he said this. You know,

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Speaker 1: Gaza is interesting. It's a phenomenal location on the sea,

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Speaker 1: best weather, you know, everything's good. It's like some beautiful

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Speaker 1: things could be done with it. It is a beautiful place.

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Speaker 1: It used to be a beautiful place, and then it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Greg Barton is Deacon University's professor of Global Islamic Politics

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Speaker 1: in Australia, joins us.

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Speaker 2: Now, good a, Greg, goodbye, Good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Second time in a week he's talked about this idea.

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Speaker 1: How serious do you think? It is?

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Speaker 2: Pretty serious. I think he's flying a kite to see

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Speaker 2: what sort of response he gets to what he can

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Speaker 2: get away with. So Donald Trump typically will will say

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Speaker 2: things that you know, a contradictory and allow himself plausible deniability.

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Speaker 2: So he could walk his way back from this one.

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Speaker 2: But clearly he's got an interest to see whether it's

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Speaker 2: got traction. What he's expressing has been expressed by the

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Speaker 2: fire right elements of the current Israeli government, And to

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Speaker 2: be fair, even Joe Biden's administration did speak to Jordan

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Speaker 2: and Egypt about whether they could take some of the

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Speaker 2: people of Gaza. Different motivations, but I mean the idea

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Speaker 2: has been out there. People in Gaza very worried about this.

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Speaker 2: They worry that they're being pushed off their land. Trump

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Speaker 2: may not go through with this, but he's giving it

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Speaker 2: a try to see what it might lie.

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Speaker 1: Well, the United States was traditionally or recently anyway a

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Speaker 1: proponent of the two states solution. But in suggesting this

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Speaker 1: where you can't have a two states solution when you've

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Speaker 1: moved everybody into Egypt, do you think he's going back

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Speaker 1: on that? Things are changing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think if Donald Trump has his way,

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Speaker 2: and bear in mind, he's not deeply ideological, he's transactional,

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Speaker 2: and he'll pick his sights. And you know, he liked

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Speaker 2: nothing but have been being a winner. He's not going

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Speaker 2: to die in a ditch over this. But in Donald

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Speaker 2: trum Trump's own mind, there's no deep commitment to a

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Speaker 2: two state solution or a peace process, or indeed sort

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Speaker 2: of broad conceptions of justice. He's he's got a very

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Speaker 2: different view than what America has held traditionally, but his

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Speaker 2: view may not hold well.

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Speaker 1: Look, here's the thing about being transactional and just going

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Speaker 1: for quick wins and stuff. Because some people were surprised

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Speaker 1: when Donald Trump forced benj Vnetnyaho to sign the cease

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Speaker 1: fire deal with Hamas. Could it be that he was

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Speaker 1: going for this idea which was supported by the far

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Speaker 1: rights in Israel? And could that have had anything to

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Speaker 1: do with it?

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Speaker 2: Certainly possible. I think one of the factors that play

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Speaker 2: with both of us and whose government is the unpredictability

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Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. From their perspective, they just don't know

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Speaker 2: what he might do. They know he's given to blossom bluster.

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Speaker 2: He himself famously in that book that his name is

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Speaker 2: on the Art of the Deal, said that, you know,

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Speaker 2: part of the making is to put outrageous claims upfront

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Speaker 2: and see what he can get away with test people.

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Speaker 2: So perhaps that's what he's doing, but it does mean

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Speaker 2: that for anyone dealing with him, they can't be certain.

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Speaker 2: So I think Amass was genuinely anxious that things make

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Speaker 2: it worse under Donald Trump. I think Metnya, who also

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Speaker 2: thought better to take a bird in the hand than

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Speaker 2: risk uncertainty. It's almost inevitable that there's been the floating

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Speaker 2: of this idea and other sort of ideas that would

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Speaker 2: please far right elements of the cabinet in Israel. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that Trump is going to commit himself to

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Speaker 2: going through with it, but this is certainly inching closer

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Speaker 2: to being something they're going to try and put on.

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Speaker 2: It's worth nerving too that his Donald Trump's, the son

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Speaker 2: in law shared Kushna, has been part of real estate

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Speaker 2: consortium's looking at having Jewish settlements in Gaza and sort

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Speaker 2: of great real estate deals on the beach front.

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Speaker 1: But do you think he realizes how deeply this resonates

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Speaker 1: with Arab nations, Because if you go back to nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty eight, the movement of Palestinians out of what they

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Speaker 1: thought was their homeland was as kind of like what

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Speaker 1: started this whole thing off.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he understands that history or cares about it.

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Speaker 2: What he does care about, though, is his relationship with

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Speaker 2: Muhammad Bin some One, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia MBSNBS, Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's right and NBS. Trump recently approached NBS and said, look,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe we should pick it up the deal

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Speaker 2: we had talked about last time when I was president,

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Speaker 2: and NBS came back and said, sure, we'll increase it.

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Speaker 2: I think he spoke of a trillion dollars. NBS also

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Speaker 2: is pretty good at negotiating, perhaps better than Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: But there's a transactual interest on both sides there. And

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Speaker 2: of course one of the hallmark politicians of the previous

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Speaker 2: Trump government was this idea of Abraham Accord's and peace

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Speaker 2: between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which makes a lot of

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Speaker 2: people angry because it covers over what we're just discussing,

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Speaker 2: that history of occupation, but it also potentially opens the

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Speaker 2: way forward, opens the way forward for Saudi and other

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Speaker 2: Arab support for regu and Regaza Strip with a new

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Speaker 2: Palestinian administration. So the devil was very much the details.

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Speaker 2: It could be something that is a force for good

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Speaker 2: in a very difficult situation, or it could be something

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Speaker 2: that just further adds to injustice.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Greg Barton is the professor of

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Speaker 1: Global Islamic politics at the Deacon University, which is in Australia.

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