1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,160
Speaker 1: Good afternoon. Australia has announced it will recognize the State

2
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: of Palestine next month of the un. In response, Winston

3
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,119
Speaker 1: Peters has said that our government will be spending the

4
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,479
Speaker 1: next few weeks also considering whether to do the same.

5
00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,640
Speaker 1: Robert Patman is a professor of international relations at Otaga

6
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:14,520
Speaker 1: University High.

7
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 2: Robert, I'll get afternoon, healler, should we also do this?

8
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 2: I think, well, it's at the moment. My understanding in

9
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,639
Speaker 2: the New Zealand position is we're weighing up what to

10
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 2: do and it's not you know, and this has been

11
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 2: the position of the New Zealand governments for some time.

12
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,639
Speaker 2: I think there's a danger of mismatch between the gravity

13
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: of the situation in Gaza and the West Bank and

14
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 2: New Zealand's government's wait and see response. And you know,

15
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 2: a number of our allies are committed to recognizing the

16
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,199
Speaker 2: Palestinian state. More than one hundred and fifty countries have

17
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 2: already recognized the principal of Palestinian statehood. And the situation

18
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,960
Speaker 2: is extremely grave at the moment, and it's quite clear

19
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 2: that the net Nahou government does not want a Palestinians state.

20
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 2: Mister net for the last twenty five years has opposed

21
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 2: the idea of political self determination for the Palestinians. It's

22
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:21,480
Speaker 2: also a strategic issue. Does it weaken Hamas by continuing

23
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,520
Speaker 2: this military conflict, this military onslaught against them? Or do

24
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 2: you weaken their position by giving the majority of the

25
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,200
Speaker 2: Palestinians who do not like Hamas a peaceful pathway to

26
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,679
Speaker 2: achieving their national aspirations of a state. So it is

27
00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 2: a strategic issue as well. It's not just a question

28
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 2: of political judgment. My fear is that we're missing in

29
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 2: the moment.

30
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: Does recognizing a state make this war stop? Does it

31
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: make the aid delivery happen?

32
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't, but it does send a message to Israel's

33
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,640
Speaker 2: public that what's being done in its name is being

34
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 2: widely opposed by the rest of the world. Mister net

35
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,679
Speaker 2: and Yahoo at the moment has never said since the

36
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 2: appalling terrorist attack of the seventh October, he was very

37
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 2: reluctant to say what the day after looks like? What

38
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 2: we now know what the day after looks like, It

39
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 2: looks like making gals are inhabitable and then near Palestinian

40
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 2: population being expelled. He hasn't. The Israeli leader has recently

41
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 2: announced that military a military offensive will resume in Galza City,

42
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 2: which is currently inhabited by close to a million Palestinians,

43
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 2: many of whom have already been relocated ten times. Yeah,

44
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,800
Speaker 2: and that's going to have such a military campaign in

45
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,959
Speaker 2: such a densely populated era is going to kill many

46
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 2: thousands of people.

47
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 1: Listen. Robert does, though, recognizing a Palestinian state not actually

48
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 1: strengthen Hamasa's hand and make it least likely to stop

49
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:55,920
Speaker 1: this war.

50
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,640
Speaker 2: I don't think so, because the fact of the matter

51
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,359
Speaker 2: is that so trying to obliterate Hamas is purblicically bolstering them.

52
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:03,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

53
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 2: I mean, in a sense, Israel is not more secure

54
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: after twenty two months of targeting Hamas. And the problem

55
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,680
Speaker 2: is it hasn't targeted Hamas very well. It's killed a

56
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,640
Speaker 2: lot of palestine yous who detest Hamas, and more than

57
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,239
Speaker 2: sixty one thousand have been killed. This can't go on that.

58
00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,760
Speaker 2: The thing that really worries me, Heather, is that New

59
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,600
Speaker 2: Zealand has always believed in the rule of law internationally

60
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 2: and the institution which has formal responsibility for stopping a

61
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 2: situation like this. The UN Security Council is impotent and marginalized,

62
00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 2: and I do think that New Zealand should be leading

63
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 2: the charge along with Australia in countries like Canada and

64
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 2: other small and middle powers to say we can't have

65
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,680
Speaker 2: an impotent un Security Council.

66
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: We have restrictly, We'll have you to leave it there, Robert,

67
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you, expecting as always, Robert Patman, International

68
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: Relations Professor, OTAGA Universe. For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive,

69
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 1: listen live to News Talks at b from four pm weekdays,

70
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio