1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: calls for urgent changes to modernize our laws to better 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: protect victims of sexual violence. A new Helen Clark Foundation 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: report identifies several gaps in our laws that need closing 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: and changes to our justice system to reduce under reporting. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: Ministry of Justice data estimates about two hundred and nine 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: thousand incidents of sexual assault occur every year, affecting around 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: eighty two thousand victims. 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 3: Nearly one in. 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: Four adults report having experienced sexual assault in their lifetime. 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Senior researcher Sarah Bell is 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: with us to take us through the report. First off, Sarah, 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 2: tell me about the purpose of this. 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 3: Report, Thanks, Chelsea. 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: So we know that New Zealander's face really alarming at 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: unacceptual rates of sexual violence, and that causes huge harm 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: to those individuals and to their families and their communities, 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: and also causes huge costs for New Zealand and our society. 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: So we know that nearly one in four New Zealand 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: adults has experienced sexual violence in their lifetimes and that's 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: about eighty two thousand victims a year, which is obviously 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: far too many. So a lot is already happening to 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: address sexual violence. But our report looked at a number 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: of areas in which New Zealand laws and policies are 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: falling behind and international best practice, or falling behind technological changes, 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: or falling behind the way that society thinks about sexual norms. 29 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 1: So we looked at a number of different areas where 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: we felt that was the case. One of the big 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: ones was around very low levels of reporting of sexual 32 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: violence in New Zealand and the low rates of reported 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: cases that make it through to a verdict. So we 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: know that only around ten percent of sexual violence is 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: reported to police in New Zealand, and of those reported cases, 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: only about twelve percent to make it through to a 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: conviction within two years. That's a huge amount of sexual 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: violence going unreported, undealt with perpetrators not being addressed. So 39 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: we've come up with a number of practical recommendations to 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: support victims and survivors to report sexual violence, to support 41 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: them through the process, to make trials less traumatic for them, 42 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: and to provide some alternative pathways where we can address 43 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: offending without the perpetrators necessarily need to go to prison 44 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: if that's not what the survivors are actually looking for, 45 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: and that might encourage more people to actually come forward 46 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: if they know that the perpetrator is not necessarily going 47 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: to face a long jail sentence, but they do want 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: the offending addressed. And we also looked at some ways 49 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: of modernizing New Zealand laws to update our definition of 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: consent to an affirmative consent or yes means yes consent, 51 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: to address the harm from sexually explicit deep bakes, and 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: to eradicate the practice of virginity testing. And we looked 53 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: at a common theme around education across all of the topics. 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: We looked at people really emphasize the importance of education, 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: both for young people and for society as a whole, 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: and to support the kind of behavioral change that we 57 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: would like to see. 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: I suppose a good place to start is what does 59 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: the law say about consent at the moment? 60 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: Sure so people will be familiar I think with the 61 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: old no means no concept where you respect it if 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: someone says nor, things have been moving in society and 63 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: in educational settings towards more of a yes men's yes model, 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: which means that you can't assume that someone is consenting 65 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: to sex just because they don't say no. Now, our 66 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: law at the moment is a sort of partial affirmative 67 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: consent model, so you can't assume that someone's consenting just 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: because they don't say no. But the Supreme Court has 69 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: said that there are some situations where if there's an 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: the factor in play, you can assume cent sometimes, so 71 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: they call it passivity plus X. And one of the 72 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: examples they've given for when that might be the case 73 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: is relationship expectations. So if the person has consented or 74 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: not resisted before, maybe you can assume that they're consenting 75 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: on this occasion. That can be really problematic. We know 76 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: that a freeze response is not uncommon when people are 77 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, and we also know that people in adducive 78 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: relationships have real trouble communicating about consent. So that ability 79 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: in some cases to assume consent, we think, is a 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: problem that needs to be fixed. 81 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: It sounds simple to change that messaging, going from no 82 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: means no to yes means yes, But how do you 83 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: actually do that? 84 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: It's relatively simple. In law, we've got some pretty sort 85 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: of simple and concrete changes to the law that we 86 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: would propose. It's not a hugely radical change, as I say, 87 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: our laws most of the way they're already, So we 88 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: would just recommend that instead of saying, you know, a 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: person has not consented just because they don't say or 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: do anything, we recommend saying a person doesn't consent unless 91 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: they say or do something to communicate consent, and we 92 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: don't say how they need to do that. Right, So 93 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: you don't have to say the word yes, You just 94 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: have to have given some indication that this is wanted 95 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: to sex, which is, you know, what we want in 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: society for people to be able to do. 97 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard quite a lot of heroin stories that 98 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 4: are really motivating me to push on with us and 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 4: actually show how urgent it is. One of the main stories, 100 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 4: or the key stories that I've been saying, is about 101 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 4: a thirteen year old girl and I've got a twelve 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: year old boy. So Sophiel was very awfully young. She 103 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: was deep faked, and we shared amongst her peers at 104 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 4: school just year nine, and she attempted suicide on school site. 105 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 4: It was absolutely terrifying and traumatizing, not for the just 106 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 4: for the individual, but for her, the peers and the 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 4: school and the lack of support and resource around this 108 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 4: is really terrifying. It would be on the extreme side 109 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 4: of things, But other than that case, I've heard of many, 110 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 4: many other young, predominantly females where this is happening to her, 111 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 4: whether it's at school, university for example, or within the workplace. 112 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: We've heard a lot about sexually explicit deep fakes, especially recently. 113 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: I remember this year at MP Laura McClure held up 114 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: a naked quote unquote photo of herself in Parliament just 115 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: to prove how easy it was to manufacture. Now, that 116 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: was a deep fake image, it wasn't actually a naked 117 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: photograph of herself. And we know that existing laws are 118 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 2: quite behind the eight ball when it comes to this technology. 119 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: So you guys are saying that we should really speed 120 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: up our processes on this exactly. 121 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 3: No, you're right. There has been a lot of publicity. 122 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: About that encoding through Laura's bravery and holding up that image, 123 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: and Laura's bill addresses exactly the gap that our project 124 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: couldified in terms of the way that facts are treated. 125 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: So we know that these images can be generated really easily, 126 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: they're extremely realistic. You can take someone's profile picture off 127 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: their online accounts and turn it into a video of 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: them doing sexually explicit things that of course they have 129 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: not done. They haven't consented to it. And we know 130 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: that the harms from sharing those images without consent can 131 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: be just as damaging to the individuals as if they 132 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: were real images, because people can't tell whether they're real 133 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: or not. And so one of our recommendations is that 134 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: Laura's they'll be passed. We're recommending a tiny tweak just 135 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that it covers images that it was 136 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: so created with consent, that shared without consent. So if 137 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: you agree with someone that you know you're for fun 138 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: or whatever, that you're. 139 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: Going to make one of these images, but then they. 140 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: Share it without your consent, that should, so we think, 141 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: be covered by the bill. But we were really pleased 142 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: that that bill was drawn from the ballot just recently 143 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: and we're hoping it will pass when it comes around. 144 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: And the report also mentions the need to a rat 145 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: kate the practice of virginity testing in New Zealand. Can 146 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: you tell us what that is? And I believe that 147 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: the UN is actually called on governments to ban this 148 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: practice altogether already. 149 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: That's right. 150 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: So virginity testing relates to the myth that you can 151 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: tell from an examination whether someone has had sex before. 152 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: Now that's not actually true. 153 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 3: So the UN and. 154 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: Medical practitioners a New Zealand all agree that virginity is 155 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: a social construct, so a construct that's really important to 156 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: some people obviously, but you can't establish via an examination 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: whether someone is a so called virgin. Unfortunately, there is 158 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: a practice still occurring whereby women and usually very young 159 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: women or children are subjected to a really invasive internal 160 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: exam to check whether they have supposedly had sex or not. 161 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: That obviously causes you know, physical harm in mental trauma 162 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: to those people when it's occurring, and it's associated with 163 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: a lot of harms kind of after the fact as well. 164 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: So the UN has called you some time ago for 165 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: the practice to be eradicated. We know and dotally that 166 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: that practice is occurring in New Zealand. 167 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 3: We don't know how. 168 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: Much it's occurring or in exactly which communities because it's 169 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: obviously not something that people talk about, but we think 170 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: that's enough information to move ahead with in terms of 171 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: both banning it legally but also supporting community lead campaigns 172 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: to educate people around the harms and the inaccuracy of 173 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: the practice. But what we did with female genital mutilation 174 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: some years ago, likewise, that's a practice that's not widely 175 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: practiced in New Zealand and we didn't have good information 176 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: about when and how it was being practiced, but the 177 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: fact that it shouldn't be practiced at all was sufficient 178 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: for us to go ahead and again combine a legal 179 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: ban with community led education and advocacy to eradicate it. 180 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: So when it comes to modernizing our laws, I know 181 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: that there has been some recent changes to strength and 182 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: protections for victims of crime and including sexual assault and 183 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 2: things like that include you know, not having to give 184 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: evidence in court, being able to video response or be 185 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: in a different room and be a vled or or 186 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 2: audio visual linked into a court room, for instance. And 187 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: then there are some changes to suppression laws things like that. 188 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: So there has been kind of steps, but would you 189 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: call them baby steps? Should we be taking bigger leaps 190 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: when it comes to this. 191 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: It's great to see those steps being taken, and to 192 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: that I would add one of the other recent developments 193 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: that was relevant to our research was the Stalking and 194 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: Harassment Bill it's just passed, and that's relevant to the 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: deep Facts. 196 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 3: Legislation. 197 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: Again, we think it's great that deep facts are covered 198 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: by that bill. So if someone is using sexual explicit 199 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: deep facts to harass and stalk someone, then that's an 200 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: avenue to pursue them. But we still think they should 201 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: be banned altogether without having to demonstrate that someone's talking 202 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: or harassing you. Likewise, with the other law changes, and 203 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: we didn't know, Project didn't look into all of the 204 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: aspects like name suppression for example, that were covered by 205 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: the recent changes, but it is always positive to see 206 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: steps being taken. We've recommended another a number of other ones, 207 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: including rolling out some trial practices that are already used 208 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: in the sexual violence courts, for example, which were piloted 209 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: an Auckland and FUGA day, rolling those out throughout the country. 210 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: Requiring judges to be accredited and trained when overseeing sexual 211 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: violence cases so that they're better equipped to handle cross examination. 212 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: That's sort of creating greater trauma for victims, which we 213 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: know is a real issue, and better address rate myths 214 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: that come up around what real victims do or don't do, 215 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: which again we know don't really reflect the way that 216 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: sexual violence takes place. 217 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean it was it's shocking to know 218 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 2: that it was only until quite recently, and by recent 219 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: I mean within the last couple of years where you 220 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: could ask a child who had been let's face it, 221 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: raped on the stand whether they liked it or not, 222 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: and that was kind of common practice amongst you know, 223 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: questioning children in these kind of cases. And so those 224 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: those kind of things still crop up and you go, huh. 225 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: I can't still happening. 226 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: That was a doctor Anahi who authored the consent part 227 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: of our report. You know, she obviously is an expert 228 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: on these issues. I am not. And when I read 229 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: that part of the report that children were you know, 230 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: up until very recently able to be questioned about whether 231 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: they had consented to sex. Because of the different ways 232 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: our law was structured around charging sexual violation versus charging 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: sexual interaction with the minor, you could get a bigger 234 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: sentence via charging sexual violation, which meant they could be 235 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: questioned about consent. That has been fixed for under twelves, 236 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: and the latest law, which is a really positive step, 237 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: it's still the case for young people age twelve to fifteen. 238 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: We haven't necessarily recommended fixing that because it's slightly more 239 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: complicated for people of that age, but it does show 240 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: why the consent changes that we're recommending are really important, 241 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: because you can imagine for young people communicating about consent 242 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: is pretty challenging. 243 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 3: Primarily that I did not want my family did it. 244 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: I don't want people to look at me and think, oh, 245 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: how sad or how hope breaking. 246 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 3: You didn't tell those things. 247 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 4: If there were so many ways in where I could 248 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 4: be discredited that I didn't want to put myself through that. 249 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: So we've spoken about before. The report dives into issues 250 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: around underreporting and attrition, of course, and there's a multitude 251 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: of reasons why there is under reporting, and you won't 252 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: understand those reasons until you're actually in the situation. And 253 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: even when you're in the situation, every situation is different, 254 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: and every person is different, and every person's response is different. 255 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: And I said that I found that the report said 256 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: current options available under the criminal justice system do not 257 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: meet survivors definitions of justice or what they think is 258 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: an appropriate response to the offending. Now, straight off the bat, 259 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: I remember, you know, when I'm not picking up any 260 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: story in particular here, but when you say so X 261 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: has been charged with rape, X has been sentenced to 262 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: a year's home detention or something, and then you've got 263 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: the public outraged saying this isn't good enough. And then 264 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: on the flip side, though, and what we hear about 265 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: less often is sometimes victims not wanting the perpetrator to 266 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: go to court and to have You know, there are 267 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: all different kind of intricacies in how people want justice, 268 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: and so was that an interesting part of your report 269 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: and of the research learning about different forms of justice 270 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: and what victims actually want and how it differs across 271 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: the spectrum. 272 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely no, and that was Emily Henderson who led this 273 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: part of the research looked really widely at research from 274 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: a number of countries into a number of different situations, 275 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: and it was something we talked around quite a bit, 276 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: as none of the solutions that we propose or the 277 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: adjustments that we propose would fix things for everyone, because, 278 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: as you say, everyone's situation is different, right, there are 279 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: people who want to see longer penalties and jail penalties. 280 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: That's something that the research suggests doesn't necessarily reduce offending particularly, 281 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: But what we do know is that there are a 282 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: number of people who don't come forward with the sexual 283 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: violence stories because they don't want the perpetrator to go 284 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: to prison. You can imagine all kinds of reasons for 285 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: at family relationships obviously, and again it's not to say 286 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: that everyone who has a family relationship with the offender 287 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: doesn't want them to go to prison. It really is 288 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: an individual story. We know that Indigenous people generally and 289 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: maldi don't find incarceration to necessarily be the most desirable outcome. Again, 290 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: not always, but sometimes you know, there's a preference to 291 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: deal with things. 292 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: In a different way. 293 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: And so one of the recommendations we made is for 294 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: alternative pathways that don't say people shouldn't go to jail, 295 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: but they say we should offer alternative options to encourage 296 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: more people to come forward to address the offending in 297 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: a way that meets people's justice needs. So that might 298 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: be through a restorative justice, which is already available in 299 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: some cases, we're suggesting it be expanded, but also the 300 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: idea of treatment courts, which we currently have for drug 301 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: and alcohol offenses. But Emily's suggested that in some cases 302 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: sexual offending is quite treatable, and you know, we should 303 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: look at models where instead of going to prison, people 304 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: are sentenced to treatment and then they sort of report 305 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: back to the judge after that treatment's carried out. 306 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: So again, none of these things is meant. 307 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: To be for everyone, but if you offer more options 308 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: along the way, then we might pick up more cases. 309 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: And so at the moment, what are young people taught 310 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: about sexual violence, sexual consent, or even to sex in 311 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 2: general in school? 312 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: The problem is we don't know, and so there is 313 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: a curriculum, but school boards consult with their communities around 314 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: what it's taught, and what we understand from our research 315 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: is that it's very patchy across the country from school 316 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: to school what kids are learning, who's delivering their education, 317 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: and therefore what ideas they're coming away with. And there 318 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: have been some recent updates to the curriculum, so again 319 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: that's kind of at a high level what's suggested, but 320 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: again we don't know what will end up being taught 321 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: under those What we do know is what they're missing 322 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: from the curriculum, which is content around what kids are 323 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: actually being exposed to. So we're recommending age appropriate content 324 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: around things like pornography, digital harm, you know, particularly the 325 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: kind of harm that can be delivered via AI, via 326 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: the deep fax, issue online companions and. 327 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 3: Things like that. 328 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: And there's also not really anything in the curriculum at 329 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: the moment around intimate partner violence, you know, how to 330 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: understand whether you're in a violent relationship. So one of 331 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: the messages we heard from a few different angles and 332 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: we were talking to people for the project, was a desire, 333 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: including from young people, for there to be more consistently 334 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: across the education. 335 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 3: You know, people want to know that their peers are being. 336 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: Taught the same things, particularly an environment with this so 337 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: much misogynistic, awful messaging out there now, we need to 338 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: be countering that in some way with real information and 339 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: with positive messaging about healthy relationships. 340 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 2: It seems wild to me that there still isn't kind 341 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: of a curriculum that's across the board everyone. I kind 342 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: of mentioned it in the newsroom because I went through 343 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: sex ed Fath a couple of decades ago, and it 344 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: was a Catholic or girls' school, so it was abstinence. 345 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: But I kind of chatted to a couple of other 346 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: people in the newsroom saying, what was your sex head 347 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 2: like at school? And they'd be like, yeah, we had 348 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: a couple like this is how to use a condom, 349 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: and then the next lesson would be like fruit and 350 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: veggies like so it was a part of their health 351 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: kind of group. And especially it's wild to me that 352 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: you know, in the last couple of decades it hasn't 353 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: actually moved It doesn't seem like it's moved on. But 354 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: at the same time, there is more access to pornography, 355 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 2: more access to quite hardcore pornography, and we do know 356 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: so much more about relationships and lgbt Q relationships and 357 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: all of this stuff that these kids are having to 358 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 2: navigate with and they're still, presumably and this is anecdotally 359 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: learning about condoms and periods. 360 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 5: Which is also important, but yeah, absolutely, And for a start, 361 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 5: there's so much to cover, and we know that teachers 362 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 5: have a lot to cover already, and we know that 363 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 5: some of these issues are sensitive for families, that people 364 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 5: have different beliefs around these issues. 365 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,239 Speaker 1: There's not kind of one single truth about some of 366 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: these things that everybody would agree on. But we don't 367 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: think it's right for kids to get through school, and 368 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: you know, young people to get through school and not 369 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: be aware of these issues and will only be aware 370 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: of them through what they're exposed to online, right, because 371 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: you can't really keep young people away. 372 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 3: From these issues. 373 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: Almost all of them are online, and we know their 374 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: efforts to address that. It's not that we didn't really 375 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 1: look at age related measures in our report, but what 376 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: we did look at is the fact that the stuff 377 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: is happening anyway. Kids are getting access to this material, 378 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: particularly online, whether it's viewing pornography, whether it's hearing these 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: kind of, as I say, misogynistic messages from online influences 380 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: about women's place and. 381 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 3: What real men do. 382 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: And we think it's really really important that the young 383 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: people are given consistent messaging around. 384 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: How to navigate that and how to. 385 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: Have healthy relationships and how to go to if they 386 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: are encountering things that make them uncomfortable or if they 387 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: are victims of inject fact sexual abuse, that kind of thing. 388 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: It's not something that parents are necessarily equipped to teach 389 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: them about. I say, as a parent of a very 390 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: young person at the moment, but you know, I've learned 391 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: a huge amount through this project that most parents don't 392 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: have access to all of the information. 393 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: Right. 394 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for joining us, Sarah, Thank you, Chelsea. 395 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode. Of the Front Page. You 396 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 397 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 398 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also 399 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 400 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 401 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.