WEBVTT - Max Whitehead: Why are Gen X so unhireable? 0:00:05.721 --> 0:00:10.001 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB. 0:00:12.801 --> 0:00:42.641 The Weapon Classes. I wanted to let that roll for 0:00:42.641 --> 0:00:44.041 a little bit, but I guess we'd better get on 0:00:44.081 --> 0:00:46.001 and do our job. Welcome, Welcome back to the Weekend 0:00:46.041 --> 0:00:49.481 Collective on tim beverage and by the way, a fascinating 0:00:49.561 --> 0:00:51.481 chat in the previous hour for the Health hab with 0:00:51.601 --> 0:00:55.121 Dr Mark Williams Neuroscience about just the effect of devices 0:00:55.161 --> 0:00:58.121 on our on our health and actually the scariest thing 0:00:58.201 --> 0:01:00.641 was basically the fact that we're just becoming dumber because 0:01:00.681 --> 0:01:03.081 the devices and IQ rates of declining. So if you 0:01:03.361 --> 0:01:04.881 wanted a reason to get off your phone, there's a 0:01:04.881 --> 0:01:08.001 good one. Anyway, if you want to check out anto 0:01:08.001 --> 0:01:09.801 the previous hours and me to chat with Peter Dunn 0:01:09.841 --> 0:01:13.521 about the Luxeen and Winston having a crack at luxon 0:01:13.601 --> 0:01:15.721 for talking to world leaders and getting ahead of it. 0:01:15.761 --> 0:01:17.641 Should have talked to Winston first. And then we had 0:01:17.641 --> 0:01:20.321 a chat with David Carter, former Speaker of the House 0:01:20.441 --> 0:01:26.161 and Minister of Local Government about just celebrities and voting 0:01:26.201 --> 0:01:28.281 for them just because we recognize the name for our mayors. 0:01:28.361 --> 0:01:30.721 You can go and check out our podcast look for 0:01:30.721 --> 0:01:32.921 the Weekend Collective on the News talks he Be website. 0:01:33.321 --> 0:01:37.401 We'll go to iHeartRadio. But right now it's time for 0:01:37.441 --> 0:01:39.561 another hour, which'll be can checking out in the podcast 0:01:39.561 --> 0:01:41.401 if you're not listening to it live. It is smart money. 0:01:41.521 --> 0:01:45.281 My guest is he's an employment relation expert. He doesn't 0:01:45.321 --> 0:01:47.681 really need much of an introduction to this audience. I 0:01:47.721 --> 0:01:49.361 think if you've been listening to The Weekend Collective for 0:01:49.401 --> 0:01:52.561 a while, you'll be familiar with the tone, the dulcet 0:01:52.561 --> 0:01:54.521 tones of Max Whitehead go a Max, how you going? 0:01:54.561 --> 0:01:56.561 Hey, you've had an exciting build up to the show, 0:01:56.601 --> 0:01:59.001 because really, some really good stuff's been happening. By the sound, 0:01:59.081 --> 0:02:01.681 I wish I was there. I mean, because that your 0:02:01.761 --> 0:02:07.201 last segment that adolescens. I just watched that segment of 0:02:07.401 --> 0:02:08.281 Man it touched me. 0:02:08.521 --> 0:02:11.441 It really is that that. That's a Netflix thing. 0:02:11.521 --> 0:02:13.161 I've got children. You should see it. 0:02:13.281 --> 0:02:14.721 Yeah, they're going to. 0:02:14.641 --> 0:02:15.441 Put it into schools. 0:02:15.641 --> 0:02:17.961 It's going to be Yeah, apparently it's quite heavy going too, 0:02:18.001 --> 0:02:20.081 I think, isn't it? But yeah, I'll have to check 0:02:20.121 --> 0:02:23.681 it out. I'm busy watching something light and fluffy mine. 0:02:23.721 --> 0:02:25.881 You're also I'm enjoying the f one at the moment 0:02:26.881 --> 0:02:29.041 you're following the F one and all the fortunes of 0:02:29.081 --> 0:02:30.041 Liam Lawson and all that. 0:02:30.121 --> 0:02:32.721 Oh well, I just followed him, of course. And then 0:02:33.761 --> 0:02:35.641 then I think the TA B said that they put 0:02:35.681 --> 0:02:38.241 him something special on for him and if you bet 0:02:38.241 --> 0:02:40.521 for him, and then I realized that the odds can't 0:02:40.521 --> 0:02:42.521 be good for him. No, I didn't expect him to win. 0:02:42.761 --> 0:02:44.681 But you know, a bit sad he got pushed aside, 0:02:44.681 --> 0:02:45.361 but that's life. 0:02:45.641 --> 0:02:48.841 Yeah. Well, now we want your calls on eight hundred 0:02:48.881 --> 0:02:51.601 eighty ten eight. And look, if there's any issue that 0:02:51.641 --> 0:02:56.001 you're concerned about with your either as an employer or 0:02:56.281 --> 0:02:59.681 as an employee, give us a call. And I'm sure 0:02:59.721 --> 0:03:01.521 maxud I love to give you the benefit of his 0:03:01.641 --> 0:03:06.521 wisdom and experience on eight hundred eighty text nine two 0:03:06.641 --> 0:03:09.001 ninety two. But we always like to kick things off 0:03:09.001 --> 0:03:12.001 with a couple of angles of conversation for you to 0:03:12.081 --> 0:03:17.161 digest and participate on. And the first one is is 0:03:17.201 --> 0:03:23.561 there a stigma around age getting old? And should we 0:03:23.641 --> 0:03:27.041 be valuing age a little more than sort of looking 0:03:27.081 --> 0:03:28.961 at people and thinking, oh, they're getting towards sixty five 0:03:29.001 --> 0:03:32.321 and start to write people off and case and point, 0:03:32.361 --> 0:03:37.401 and the reason for this discussion is Winston Peters. Much 0:03:37.481 --> 0:03:39.761 as you know, we might have heard some criticisms of 0:03:39.801 --> 0:03:42.121 them before by Peter Dunn about his motives for having 0:03:42.161 --> 0:03:44.841 a crack at Luxon and all that. And look, Winston Winston, 0:03:44.881 --> 0:03:49.121 the wily old politician, the co Martyr of New Zealand Parliament. 0:03:49.641 --> 0:03:53.001 He's he's been doing it for a long time. He's 0:03:53.161 --> 0:03:58.721 eighty years old now. And yet who would question whether 0:03:59.441 --> 0:04:04.321 Winston is not up to the job, Because clearly Winston 0:04:04.401 --> 0:04:07.321 is up to the job. He's received huge plaudits for 0:04:07.361 --> 0:04:10.281 the job that he does as Foreign Affairs Minister. I 0:04:10.281 --> 0:04:14.481 would say that the average punter who follows politics with 0:04:14.561 --> 0:04:16.721 more than a passing interest would look at Winston and think, 0:04:16.761 --> 0:04:19.441 you know what, regardless of my opinion of him or 0:04:19.481 --> 0:04:22.121 whether I vote for him as a foreign minister, at 0:04:22.121 --> 0:04:25.881 the age of eighty, the guy is he's rocking and rolling. 0:04:26.481 --> 0:04:29.641 So is that an example of why we should not 0:04:29.681 --> 0:04:32.961 write off older people and that age is just a number. 0:04:33.601 --> 0:04:36.161 Well, you got to think about it. It's a great 0:04:36.161 --> 0:04:39.561 discussion because we got Winston, who is wiley. I think 0:04:39.561 --> 0:04:42.041 he really is. But by goodness, I've been around a 0:04:42.041 --> 0:04:44.121 long time, so I remember the days when he skinned 0:04:44.121 --> 0:04:46.601 his knees and he was an embarrassment and I remember 0:04:46.641 --> 0:04:49.481 the time when he got throwing out of the National 0:04:49.481 --> 0:04:52.481 Party for that particular reason. And he's made some silly 0:04:52.521 --> 0:04:55.561 statements in the early days. But now he can read 0:04:55.641 --> 0:04:59.641 politics better than anybody and he's proven that again and again. 0:04:59.841 --> 0:05:02.321 There's also a lesson there and just persistence, isn't it, 0:05:02.601 --> 0:05:05.961 you know, I mean he's plead Knox member. He got 0:05:06.001 --> 0:05:08.641 I mean he got ended up out of parliament after 0:05:09.081 --> 0:05:10.681 you know, when people decided that I had enough in 0:05:10.681 --> 0:05:12.601 New Zealand first and he was out and then he's back. 0:05:13.121 --> 0:05:16.641 Jim Boljas kicked him out and he's held a grudge 0:05:16.641 --> 0:05:18.481 against the National Party for years, but he's back with 0:05:18.561 --> 0:05:21.281 him now. But you know, the other thing is the 0:05:21.321 --> 0:05:25.761 President of the United States is about the same age, yes. 0:05:25.561 --> 0:05:27.641 He is, well, actually in the former president of the 0:05:27.721 --> 0:05:29.401 United States is around the same age as well. 0:05:29.481 --> 0:05:32.521 Yeah yeah, and look at the performance difference. It's completely 0:05:33.001 --> 0:05:38.001 you know, the previous president really struggled and his age 0:05:38.041 --> 0:05:42.081 really showed him that last year. So he's witty, he's smart, 0:05:42.121 --> 0:05:45.121 he's electric, but he's thinking he can actually beat the hecklers. 0:05:45.401 --> 0:05:49.121 He really does performing well and his brain is super 0:05:49.161 --> 0:05:52.801 sharp trumpy. Well, I don't know what goes on in 0:05:52.841 --> 0:05:55.921 his brain. I don't think anyone else does. But what 0:05:56.041 --> 0:05:59.121 we got is somebody courageous. But there's that reckless because 0:05:59.121 --> 0:06:02.521 he's getting old as well. But he's really really doing 0:06:02.561 --> 0:06:03.921 some changes to the world. 0:06:03.961 --> 0:06:08.041 Well, let's get onto the Can you you can't discriminate 0:06:08.081 --> 0:06:11.081 against people based on their gender? Generally, I don't think 0:06:11.121 --> 0:06:14.161 you can, And generally I wouldn't think you can discriminate 0:06:14.281 --> 0:06:17.361 against them on age. But can you discriminate against people 0:06:17.401 --> 0:06:17.841 on age? 0:06:17.921 --> 0:06:20.961 Well, the Human Rights ex specifies it. No, you cannot. 0:06:21.321 --> 0:06:25.641 So if employers have problems of this, So a person's 0:06:25.681 --> 0:06:29.881 becoming elderly, they're becoming slower, they be a bit more less, 0:06:30.521 --> 0:06:33.841 can't respond quick quick enough and even physically. 0:06:33.881 --> 0:06:35.241 That's a performance issue, isn't it. 0:06:35.321 --> 0:06:37.201 Yes, And that's how they've got to treat it. But 0:06:37.241 --> 0:06:38.041 not with age. 0:06:38.121 --> 0:06:39.801 Whereas if you turn up for a job and you 0:06:39.881 --> 0:06:42.121 happen to be, you know, in your seventies or something, 0:06:42.401 --> 0:06:45.601 and you demonstrate you can do the job, age shouldn't 0:06:45.601 --> 0:06:46.441 be a barrier to you. 0:06:46.481 --> 0:06:49.441 No, it should not, And but yet it is. I 0:06:49.481 --> 0:06:52.521 can say to you now because I'm getting into that 0:06:52.601 --> 0:06:58.041 older age group and never I just adjust my nappy. 0:06:58.321 --> 0:07:02.001 But just but what I was just about to say is, 0:07:02.281 --> 0:07:05.001 you know, it definitely is a barrier out there. It's subconscient, 0:07:05.241 --> 0:07:07.841 but right through New Zealand. You actually look at in 0:07:07.881 --> 0:07:11.121 your world. You know, radio stars and things in Australia 0:07:11.201 --> 0:07:15.481 they're much older. TV celebrities are the really good ones 0:07:15.481 --> 0:07:19.281 are much older. There's not many older ones here compared 0:07:19.321 --> 0:07:21.761 to what's happening in Australia. They're in New Zealand. We 0:07:21.801 --> 0:07:24.801 do judge people on age, and we shouldn't we should 0:07:24.881 --> 0:07:25.281 I mean, I. 0:07:25.201 --> 0:07:27.681 Guess there are certain industries where age is not such 0:07:27.721 --> 0:07:30.521 a barrier that you know, the older yet you deem 0:07:30.561 --> 0:07:34.041 to have a bit more life experience and dealing with things. 0:07:34.041 --> 0:07:36.641 Probably actually this this gig can talk back. If you're 0:07:36.961 --> 0:07:38.601 you know, if you're around fifty, you're a youngster. 0:07:39.441 --> 0:07:42.761 Yeah, well yes, well possibly, but I mean you've got 0:07:42.801 --> 0:07:45.561 to have some intelligence for your sort of work as well, 0:07:45.601 --> 0:07:47.001 and you've got to be quick witted, and you've got 0:07:47.081 --> 0:07:49.401 to be able to handle, you know, situations that can 0:07:49.441 --> 0:07:52.121 be a bit risky and do it lightning fast. What 0:07:52.241 --> 0:07:55.801 if I mean what are diplomacy. 0:07:55.241 --> 0:07:59.681 What can are there ways that older people who still 0:07:59.681 --> 0:08:02.041 want to continue working, Because the other reason we're talking 0:08:02.041 --> 0:08:04.361 about this, they are an increasingly large number of people 0:08:04.721 --> 0:08:07.161 who working beyond the age of sixty five. And I 0:08:07.201 --> 0:08:10.241 think I saw some frightening status to what younger people 0:08:10.321 --> 0:08:12.521 thought how long they were going to work for and 0:08:12.721 --> 0:08:15.241 there was quite a large number. I need to find 0:08:15.241 --> 0:08:18.841 that stat actually about how many people thought they would 0:08:18.841 --> 0:08:20.961 be stopping at sixty five, and it was a minority, 0:08:20.961 --> 0:08:21.721 I think, wasn't it. 0:08:21.881 --> 0:08:25.281 Yeah, it was. And of course nowadays people are wanting 0:08:25.321 --> 0:08:28.361 to come back. If anything, the older people are the 0:08:28.401 --> 0:08:31.681 pension doesn't quite give you that luxurious, nice living standard 0:08:31.681 --> 0:08:33.961 as you had before. Now there's a couple of things 0:08:34.001 --> 0:08:35.721 that older people should do if they want to get 0:08:35.761 --> 0:08:38.761 back in the workforce, and that is one. There's a 0:08:38.801 --> 0:08:41.081 perception out there that you're going to want more money. 0:08:41.241 --> 0:08:43.841 I actually talked to an HR person today just because 0:08:43.841 --> 0:08:46.681 I knew this was coming up, and she said that 0:08:46.801 --> 0:08:49.161 we actually have a feeling that people are going to 0:08:49.481 --> 0:08:52.361 of the older generation will be expecting high money. That's 0:08:52.441 --> 0:08:53.721 one that surprises me. 0:08:54.281 --> 0:08:56.201 I would have thought, because. 0:08:55.961 --> 0:08:57.401 You've been around a long time, and you do have 0:08:57.441 --> 0:08:59.921 the experience. You've been in the industry for years and 0:09:00.001 --> 0:09:02.521 years and years, and you've had increments every year to 0:09:02.601 --> 0:09:04.641 take you up. And of course you will be expensive. 0:09:05.121 --> 0:09:07.881 So older people, you've got to say that I'm at 0:09:07.921 --> 0:09:12.321 reasonable cost. My expectations aren't beyond what's reasonable. The other 0:09:12.361 --> 0:09:17.401 thing is technology, because that's a barrier old The people 0:09:17.441 --> 0:09:20.801 that are making decisions expect you because you're older, you're 0:09:20.841 --> 0:09:23.441 not savvy with tech. You need to get up there. 0:09:23.561 --> 0:09:26.001 You need to keep right up to what's going on, 0:09:26.401 --> 0:09:28.881 and particularly with AI right now, because that's going to 0:09:28.921 --> 0:09:31.121 change the world. Now. If you're right up to date 0:09:31.161 --> 0:09:33.401 and even ahead of some of the younger people, you're 0:09:33.401 --> 0:09:35.121 going to be a head for that job. Interview as well, 0:09:35.161 --> 0:09:37.841 I would say, because the employer will be looking at it. 0:09:38.081 --> 0:09:40.041 So the way to actually sell it, if I was 0:09:40.081 --> 0:09:43.001 you would say, hey, I'm very much aware of it. 0:09:43.041 --> 0:09:47.001 I may be using AI myself, however I do it 0:09:47.041 --> 0:09:49.241 cautiously because I don't know where it's going to go. 0:09:50.121 --> 0:09:53.401 Actually, are people allowed to know how old you are 0:09:53.441 --> 0:09:57.161 for a job. No, unless it's something where there's a 0:09:57.201 --> 0:09:59.441 prescribed by law thing like I don't think there's an age, 0:09:59.521 --> 0:10:01.201 which you can be a commercial pilot or something. 0:10:01.321 --> 0:10:04.441 Well, what we advise, we've have for years and years 0:10:04.441 --> 0:10:07.601 and years of employers, and I work for the EMA 0:10:07.721 --> 0:10:12.241 Employees Association, do not ever ask their age because then 0:10:12.281 --> 0:10:14.841 you're up for an allegation of discrimination. 0:10:15.161 --> 0:10:17.841 So you actually cannot even ask someone. Look, you don't 0:10:17.841 --> 0:10:19.921 have to tell me. Can you say, Look, you don't 0:10:19.961 --> 0:10:21.801 have to tell me, but how old are you? 0:10:21.801 --> 0:10:21.961 No? 0:10:22.721 --> 0:10:24.201 Can you say what years were you? 0:10:24.281 --> 0:10:25.361 It's not advisable. 0:10:25.441 --> 0:10:27.521 Can you ask them what year did you go to 0:10:27.561 --> 0:10:28.121 that school? 0:10:28.241 --> 0:10:30.481 You could ask them that, but I mean again, they 0:10:30.481 --> 0:10:33.401 could use that and say he knew that I was 0:10:33.841 --> 0:10:37.721 touching on fifty nine and mine's going to get a 0:10:37.721 --> 0:10:41.041 pension next year or whatever, and then discriminated against me. 0:10:42.121 --> 0:10:44.281 I mean, you just don't want to get into legal 0:10:44.321 --> 0:10:46.481 action against you because you're going to turn that that 0:10:46.521 --> 0:10:50.521 person down. They will then claim what was the reason, Oh, 0:10:50.561 --> 0:10:53.081 it's because of my age. I'll sue the buggers. 0:10:53.161 --> 0:10:56.401 God, we'd love your calls on this. Eight hundred and 0:10:56.401 --> 0:10:58.361 eighty ten. Aady, are you someone who's older who's looking 0:10:58.401 --> 0:11:02.321 at keeping working or getting a job, and how do 0:11:02.361 --> 0:11:06.081 you handle the question of age or do you believe 0:11:06.121 --> 0:11:10.281 that we are, that we stigmatize and look at older 0:11:10.321 --> 0:11:12.361 people in a negative way, when in fact they might 0:11:12.401 --> 0:11:15.481 have a lot to offer. Case in point, as I say, 0:11:15.881 --> 0:11:18.401 just because he's out his eightieth birthday, Winston Peters. To 0:11:18.401 --> 0:11:21.241 be honest, if you didn't have a Minister of Foreign 0:11:21.281 --> 0:11:23.721 Affairs and you could just hire anyone and Winston was available, 0:11:23.721 --> 0:11:25.561 he'd be like, let's have a chat with Whney, wouldn't 0:11:25.561 --> 0:11:27.441 you You'd hire them, good high Whinny, wouldn't you. 0:11:27.561 --> 0:11:30.081 Well, yeah, I'd go to him for advice. Hey, what's 0:11:30.121 --> 0:11:32.121 going to happen in the future. He seems to better 0:11:32.161 --> 0:11:34.881 predict it rather well because he's how often is here 0:11:34.961 --> 0:11:38.761 the balance of power? The whole population don't get this privilege. 0:11:38.761 --> 0:11:41.161 He's at it so many times. He's actually told us 0:11:41.321 --> 0:11:44.881 who we're going to have in parliament, told us what anyway? 0:11:44.961 --> 0:11:45.761 Enough of Winston. 0:11:47.521 --> 0:11:50.201 Hey, let's take some calls. Where are we up to? 0:11:50.321 --> 0:11:54.561 Let's go to Tom, Hey, Tom Max waited here, it's. 0:11:55.921 --> 0:11:59.161 Tom here. I've got a performance issue, which you just 0:11:59.201 --> 0:12:02.401 mentioned before at my work. I just want to ask 0:12:02.441 --> 0:12:04.841 your opinion about my situation, if that's okay. 0:12:04.681 --> 0:12:07.201 Yeah, sure. Have you been accused of poor performance. 0:12:08.481 --> 0:12:11.601 Yes, and so I don't want to need to be 0:12:11.601 --> 0:12:13.561 careful about not reguining my who I work for. But 0:12:14.721 --> 0:12:19.401 so I work for a large government department, and have. 0:12:19.361 --> 0:12:22.001 They given you a performance improvement plan? 0:12:23.481 --> 0:12:24.601 They're about two yes? 0:12:25.601 --> 0:12:25.761 Right? 0:12:25.801 --> 0:12:31.361 So well, firstly, so the work I do is office based, 0:12:31.721 --> 0:12:35.961 and we receive applications from members of the public which 0:12:35.961 --> 0:12:43.321 we need to process and we need to evaluate the applicants, 0:12:44.161 --> 0:12:51.961 how the applicants meets various government policies and determine various 0:12:52.041 --> 0:12:58.841 risk factors. Can get very complicated, and so I've been 0:12:58.841 --> 0:13:05.561 told that I'm about ten or twenty below the weekly output. 0:13:05.721 --> 0:13:09.281 So Tom, the big key here for you is that 0:13:09.321 --> 0:13:11.841 you are entitled to a lot of information which I 0:13:11.881 --> 0:13:15.481 guarantee you haven't had. You might surprise me government departments 0:13:15.521 --> 0:13:18.801 of HR departments that can spend all day preparing this stuff. 0:13:18.881 --> 0:13:21.001 But anyway, what you can what you should be asking 0:13:21.081 --> 0:13:24.001 for is what exactly have I done that I've let 0:13:24.081 --> 0:13:25.961 you down that you think I'm not performing? 0:13:26.041 --> 0:13:26.241 Right? 0:13:26.521 --> 0:13:29.001 I want you to name the dates, the time, the 0:13:29.041 --> 0:13:33.121 people involved, the conversations that actually give you that right 0:13:33.481 --> 0:13:36.641 that evidence. Can you give me five examples please, and 0:13:36.681 --> 0:13:40.481 then specify you want facts, not just you want you 0:13:40.521 --> 0:13:42.361 want facts, not just opinions. 0:13:42.561 --> 0:13:44.881 So sorry, what are the rest of the what's the 0:13:44.921 --> 0:13:46.561 rest of the story. What's where you're at with at 0:13:46.561 --> 0:13:46.921 the moment? 0:13:47.881 --> 0:13:52.041 Okay, So I I've had a few meets my manager, 0:13:52.201 --> 0:13:56.321 and I mean so our workers can be get quite 0:13:56.401 --> 0:14:01.081 assessed as well, and so my my quity is very 0:14:01.081 --> 0:14:03.561 good to excellent for last few months. There's no problem 0:14:03.641 --> 0:14:06.681 my quarity. And I sit to my manager just last week, 0:14:06.721 --> 0:14:08.961 I said, are there any other issues with my employment? 0:14:09.001 --> 0:14:11.521 Which is an issue? There's no, not at all. Just 0:14:12.121 --> 0:14:16.201 your output is below our expectations. So my question is 0:14:17.601 --> 0:14:19.401 there's that enough for them to put me on a 0:14:19.401 --> 0:14:23.281 performance plan? And so they he's first giving me six 0:14:23.321 --> 0:14:27.281 weeks ago on what he calls informal performance plan. But boy, 0:14:27.441 --> 0:14:30.641 is like five pages of documents which I need to sign, 0:14:30.881 --> 0:14:37.001 and there's expectations per week for every six weeks. And 0:14:37.121 --> 0:14:39.561 if I don't meet the expectations and that six weeks, 0:14:39.761 --> 0:14:41.841 then I go on a formal performance plan. And I 0:14:41.881 --> 0:14:45.521 was told that if I don't meet expectations after three 0:14:45.561 --> 0:14:48.361 months on the formal performance plan, then I could be 0:14:48.361 --> 0:14:51.481 down the road. I'll be down the road. 0:14:51.641 --> 0:14:53.481 Tom can I just ask you before we get into 0:14:53.521 --> 0:14:57.521 this further, do you know how were you set in 0:14:57.601 --> 0:14:59.961 terms of your output with other other people? 0:14:59.961 --> 0:15:01.481 And asked that? 0:15:01.881 --> 0:15:04.201 So where I worked, there is I mean, I mean nationwide, 0:15:04.241 --> 0:15:07.721 there are thousands of employees, and where I work, there's 0:15:07.761 --> 0:15:11.401 probably I'm not sure exactly about probably four hundred plus 0:15:11.441 --> 0:15:13.761 employees where I work. I mean, we all do different 0:15:13.761 --> 0:15:16.401 types of work, that's all kind of similar. And I'm 0:15:16.441 --> 0:15:18.801 absolutely certain I'm not the only person who's not meeting 0:15:18.841 --> 0:15:22.281 their target requirements. And I have asked that of them 0:15:22.601 --> 0:15:24.201 and they say, no, we can't talk to other people 0:15:24.201 --> 0:15:25.281 wause it's private information. 0:15:25.881 --> 0:15:28.041 Oh Okay, there's a lot to dig into here, isn't there? 0:15:28.041 --> 0:15:30.521 Max you get into it. 0:15:30.961 --> 0:15:34.241 Okay, well I go back back by the time I 0:15:34.361 --> 0:15:37.521 go right back to where I started. What I advise 0:15:37.601 --> 0:15:40.241 you to do is ask some questions, get some facts. 0:15:40.281 --> 0:15:43.681 You have been accused of something, you should ask them 0:15:43.761 --> 0:15:46.121 and put this in writing for me or for anybody 0:15:46.241 --> 0:15:48.721 might want to represent you that you've asked them to 0:15:48.761 --> 0:15:52.401 provide the facts to support their allegation of poor performance. 0:15:52.961 --> 0:15:55.641 And look, you've just made a very good point there. 0:15:55.681 --> 0:15:57.561 You know, where do you stand compared to your peers. 0:15:58.561 --> 0:16:00.921 I mean that's a question you can ask, is anyone 0:16:00.921 --> 0:16:03.761 else performing at this level? I mean those sort of 0:16:03.841 --> 0:16:06.401 questions you've got to write to put forward. Sorry, Tom, 0:16:06.481 --> 0:16:08.121 you spoke, Yeah. 0:16:08.121 --> 0:16:10.321 So who's the reply to that? Was that more than 0:16:10.361 --> 0:16:14.121 half of two teams who do the same work as 0:16:14.161 --> 0:16:16.121 I do, more than half of the staff who do 0:16:16.681 --> 0:16:20.641 the same week as I are meeting expectations. So I 0:16:20.641 --> 0:16:22.521 don't know what that means. More than half is that 0:16:23.161 --> 0:16:25.481 there's tety percent who aren't. 0:16:25.721 --> 0:16:28.001 So in writing put it in right? So I asked 0:16:28.041 --> 0:16:30.681 the boss, can you please give me some responses in writing? 0:16:30.721 --> 0:16:33.881 Because I'm getting advice on this and my advisor needs 0:16:33.921 --> 0:16:35.841 to see what you've got to help how you respond 0:16:35.921 --> 0:16:37.761 to these questions? Ah? 0:16:37.841 --> 0:16:37.961 Right? 0:16:38.081 --> 0:16:40.641 So what I do is very much computer based, so 0:16:40.641 --> 0:16:43.441 they've got time and you know, all these apicases we get, 0:16:43.441 --> 0:16:45.241 it's all done in the computer, so that he has 0:16:45.281 --> 0:16:49.521 got statistics to show that on a week, on a monthly, weekly, 0:16:49.561 --> 0:16:51.761 a monthly basis, my output is so much and so 0:16:51.841 --> 0:16:55.401 much and I'm not meeting the expectations of Has he 0:16:55.441 --> 0:16:55.961 given this to you? 0:16:56.041 --> 0:16:56.281 Tom? 0:16:56.601 --> 0:16:58.081 Can? I can? I ask Tom? 0:16:59.281 --> 0:17:00.521 He is? 0:17:01.481 --> 0:17:04.601 He not exactly? But he has got the end he 0:17:04.601 --> 0:17:06.801 would give it to me. I know that you do. 0:17:06.881 --> 0:17:09.321 You get a sense. I've just a couple of questions, 0:17:09.361 --> 0:17:12.001 a bit of guess where here. But firstly I've got 0:17:12.041 --> 0:17:15.041 a text asking have is this a new manager. 0:17:17.081 --> 0:17:19.881 Last six months? But I think I think he might 0:17:19.921 --> 0:17:24.801 be getting directions from higher up. I've been I've been 0:17:24.801 --> 0:17:27.841 at this organization for like just over twenty years now 0:17:28.161 --> 0:17:31.081 and two years from the retirement or two years from 0:17:31.121 --> 0:17:35.041 sixty five, and I've got a good history and good 0:17:35.081 --> 0:17:38.361 record with them. My output very goes up and down, 0:17:38.841 --> 0:17:41.401 but I've got a very good attendance. I turned to 0:17:41.401 --> 0:17:43.681 work every day I've had them. 0:17:45.081 --> 0:17:48.201 I'm just interrupted you because you know we should move on. 0:17:48.241 --> 0:17:50.481 But I was just going to say to you that 0:17:50.601 --> 0:17:52.881 really we've got. What you've got to do is we're 0:17:52.961 --> 0:17:59.201 so careful, so careful that you don't sign off any 0:17:59.241 --> 0:18:01.241 of those new rules he's putting in front of you. 0:18:01.601 --> 0:18:04.881 He'll be even giving you some KPIs key performance issues, 0:18:06.081 --> 0:18:08.881 standards to indicators that you're going to have to get 0:18:08.921 --> 0:18:11.801 to and you might use the words back, are you 0:18:11.881 --> 0:18:14.881 setting me up to fail? And because that's possibly what 0:18:14.961 --> 0:18:18.361 he's trying to do, and say I'm reluctant to sign 0:18:18.441 --> 0:18:24.081 this off until I'm satisfied that it's fear and reasonable person. 0:18:24.561 --> 0:18:30.521 My main question is, if I don't meet the I 0:18:30.921 --> 0:18:35.681 don't meet the expectations after the formal performance plan and 0:18:35.761 --> 0:18:39.521 review after several months, is that enough to dismiss someone? 0:18:39.721 --> 0:18:43.121 Yes, it is if you fail again right through. But 0:18:43.161 --> 0:18:46.441 they if you challenge them, if you came to someone 0:18:46.521 --> 0:18:48.921 like me and we challenge them, They've got to show 0:18:49.321 --> 0:18:52.321 there was enough justification for them to dismiss you. And 0:18:52.321 --> 0:18:54.641 that's what I'm asking you to do now, is to 0:18:54.681 --> 0:18:58.401 ask them for that information now, to justify what their 0:18:58.441 --> 0:19:00.881 actions are and why they're coming at you, because I 0:19:00.881 --> 0:19:03.601 can sense it from you, Tom, You've bewildered at the moment. 0:19:03.721 --> 0:19:06.241 Can I also ask Tom, do you have a sense 0:19:07.201 --> 0:19:10.361 that they are doing in these performance reviews as a 0:19:10.401 --> 0:19:13.921 way of reducing numbers within your workplace, and so they've 0:19:13.961 --> 0:19:17.081 simply changed the goalposts so they can find a bunch 0:19:17.121 --> 0:19:19.681 of people who don't quite meet what their targets are. 0:19:20.801 --> 0:19:22.161 I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. I mean, 0:19:22.161 --> 0:19:24.241 it's a speak of one as a big organization. So 0:19:25.241 --> 0:19:27.841 we haven't had any you know, in the last year 0:19:28.361 --> 0:19:32.401 with government cutbacks. We haven't had significant cutbacks. 0:19:33.081 --> 0:19:35.801 I really don't know, so I'll help you there. Because 0:19:35.841 --> 0:19:38.801 normally it's easier to make somebody redundant than it is 0:19:38.841 --> 0:19:41.881 to actually get them for flight issues. So it's quicker. 0:19:42.121 --> 0:19:43.081 It's a quicker way of doing it. 0:19:43.121 --> 0:19:46.001 Cheaper to get them for performance issue though, isn't it possibly? 0:19:46.121 --> 0:19:48.361 Yeah? Because I mean twenty years of service where Tom is, 0:19:48.721 --> 0:19:50.401 he's going to be a costly person to get out 0:19:50.441 --> 0:19:50.721 the door. 0:19:50.881 --> 0:19:54.721 So first long told any redundancy or know that? 0:19:55.001 --> 0:19:57.521 Yeah, okay, hey, looks stay on the line. We'll move 0:19:57.521 --> 0:19:59.201 on Tom. But stay listening because I just want to 0:19:59.201 --> 0:20:03.201 ask Max, So what a Tom's just remind us. I'm 0:20:03.201 --> 0:20:05.001 sure there are plenty of people who will have these issues. 0:20:05.921 --> 0:20:08.081 If you suspect you're being managed out of your job. 0:20:08.281 --> 0:20:10.001 What are his first actions? 0:20:10.081 --> 0:20:10.241 Now? 0:20:10.321 --> 0:20:11.841 First thing he should do is go back and ask 0:20:11.881 --> 0:20:14.161 for facts and ask for it in writing because he 0:20:14.201 --> 0:20:17.281 needs to get advice, and before he signs off, and 0:20:17.321 --> 0:20:20.441