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Speaker 1: Being a Tuesday morning, the Prime Minister is Weathers. Very

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Speaker 1: good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: What am I good to be with you?

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Speaker 1: We've been talking, We had David Kunliff on the program

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Speaker 1: earlier on and Labor's going to vote this weekend on

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Speaker 1: whether they move forward with the CGT and then what

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Speaker 1: sort of shape or form you would be happy to

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Speaker 1: see an opposition party come to the election in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six espousing more tax, wouldn't you?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I mean we've just gone through six years

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Speaker 3: where we've seen more tax, more spending, more borrowing, and

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Speaker 3: it didn't work, and we're now dealing with all the

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Speaker 3: hang ups around inflation and interest rates and recession and

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Speaker 3: people losing their jobs. So you know, if Labor wants

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Speaker 3: to keep going back to that, well, you know, good

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Speaker 3: on them. But the reality is, you know, this is

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Speaker 3: a country where we need to actually we need more

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Speaker 3: capital in this country, not less, and we also need

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Speaker 3: to grow our way out of the recession, not actually

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Speaker 3: tax our way out of the recession. So you know,

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Speaker 3: that's why we oppose it. There's a lot more that

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Speaker 3: we need to be doing to get this country moving.

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Speaker 1: Their argument is most people that which is true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, may well be, but I mean, you know that

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Speaker 3: horse has bolted. You know, the decision for New Zealand

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Speaker 3: is really around making sure we get this country growing.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we have seen what happened, you know, borrowing.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're now paying eight to nine to ten

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Speaker 3: billion dollars in interest rates because our borrowing went from

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Speaker 3: five to one hundred billion dollars, you know, and a

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Speaker 3: tax went up per see. Effectively, there was no tax

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Speaker 3: relief for working His Islanders for fourteen years, which we've delivered.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we just know tax anyway is not

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Speaker 3: the way to deal with it. You've got to grow

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Speaker 3: the pie, not just move the slices around.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this morning, the story is that some schools

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Speaker 1: will not be receiving their maths resources.

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Speaker 2: Why I'm not aware of that.

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Speaker 3: I know Eric is working really hard to make sure

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Speaker 3: everyone's got the maths resources.

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Speaker 2: They need to. That's why well follow that up to

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Speaker 2: make sure that they do.

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Speaker 1: But is there any reason why they wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: I'm not aware of any issues. I don't know the

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Speaker 3: story to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, basically, the union are claiming that a bunch of

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Speaker 1: schools aren't going to get the resources, the hor You

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Speaker 1: got the cart in front of the horse. You've rushed this.

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Speaker 1: It's too fast and they're not ready.

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Speaker 2: No, I disagree. Look, I mean we got.

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Speaker 3: A set of results that said four out of five

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Speaker 3: of our kids going into high school and not where

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Speaker 3: they need to be.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: We could sit around having consultation and comboy all year,

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Speaker 3: but we actually need to make an intervention. We did

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Speaker 3: that within a week. We've put forward a new maths curriculum,

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Speaker 3: pulled it forward by a year'll be ready to go

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Speaker 3: for January next year. Eric Is Stanford's on an exceptionally

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Speaker 3: good job making sure that they've got all the digital

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Speaker 3: tools and resources, support books, all that stuff that they're

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Speaker 3: going to need. We're supporting the teachers. The Teaching Council

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Speaker 3: came out which I thought was very good and said,

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Speaker 3: if you're going to be a teacher in New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: you've got to have six four maths year twelve. Maths

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Speaker 3: seems like a novel idea, but that because teachers confidence

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Speaker 3: to teach maths properly. So you know we have to

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Speaker 3: do this. Because you know, there's also a port out

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Speaker 3: today talking about NCAA right and how bysmal it is

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Speaker 3: and whether you a parent or an employer or a teacher,

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Speaker 3: it's not kind of working well, no surprise when kids

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Speaker 3: show up for the third form and they're doing you know,

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Speaker 3: four out of five can't aren't at the stand they

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Speaker 3: need to be on maths, one out of two an't

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Speaker 3: where they need to be on reading, and wonder they

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Speaker 3: lose interest in school. And it's pretty poor results for NCAA.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so just for the record, then if people are

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Speaker 1: short of material for next year for the new maths curriculum,

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Speaker 1: that will be addressed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Erica, I know she's put a lot

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Speaker 3: of effort into making sure we've got the materials available

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Speaker 3: so that teachers can go. I know we're pushing hard,

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Speaker 3: but we need to push hard for the sake of

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Speaker 3: pearance and most importantly for our kids.

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Speaker 1: Okay, are we missing something in the economy because when

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Speaker 1: the first cut's coming, tomorrown probably fifty points. When the

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Speaker 1: first cuts started getting announced, there might have been a

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Speaker 1: little bit of buzz around the place the worst was over.

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Speaker 1: But if you listen to what Dominic Stevens said the

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Speaker 1: other day from the Reserve Bank, things aren't firing what's

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Speaker 1: going wrong?

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Speaker 3: Well, no, I mean I think you've got people who

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Speaker 3: have a bunch of ecloists. We have a bunch of

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Speaker 3: forecasts going forward, and I get all that, but you

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Speaker 3: know the reality is, yes, we've still got a lot

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Speaker 3: of turbulence to navigate. But I would just say to you, look,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've got inflation back in the band. We've

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Speaker 3: got you know what, hopefully we three interest rate cuts

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Speaker 3: after twelve interest rate rises. We've got confidence building that

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Speaker 3: now needs to translate into growth into jobs, and that's

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Speaker 3: really where we move from cost of living, you know,

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Speaker 3: with inflation, interest rates coming down and get sorted more.

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Speaker 3: Now it's all about how we grow and how we

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Speaker 3: move forward from here. We got forecast next year saying

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Speaker 3: we could be anywhere from you know, you know, two

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Speaker 3: to three percent.

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Speaker 1: Who's saying that, I haven't. I've said one, I've got one,

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Speaker 1: You've got one of it here, I've got I've got

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Speaker 1: one from from the banks. They say three percent in

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Speaker 1: two twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I mean building. But I mean I think

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Speaker 3: every quarter you'll start to see growth start to improve.

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Speaker 1: But what I would say is also I also.

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Speaker 3: Acknowledge that it will be bumpy. You know, we're still

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Speaker 3: not out of the woods. As you've got the you know,

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Speaker 3: essentially the rule of economics is if you spend lots,

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Speaker 3: you get inflation, you get interest rates. We get that

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Speaker 3: that put the economy into recession for the last three years.

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Speaker 3: We've got to haul it out of that now. And

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Speaker 3: then the last thing that gets sorted as employment. And

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Speaker 3: that's got quite a lag effect because if there are

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Speaker 3: a business that's hung in there through high cost and

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Speaker 3: high interest rates and suppressed demand, the last thing you're

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Speaker 3: doing is laying off workers.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we've been seeing.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible that we are so shell shocked that

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Speaker 1: the orthodoxy doesn't work? So, in other words, when Adrian

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Speaker 1: goes worst is over. Here are some cuts. We don't

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Speaker 1: believe it and it's not right Hents. We're not spending hints,

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Speaker 1: The mood isn't right, Hents. Things aren't moving the way

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Speaker 1: they should.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, those are immutable laws of economics

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Speaker 3: which we completely are lost that we learned thirty five

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Speaker 3: years ago in this generation of political leadership. Just thought,

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Speaker 3: if I keep spending, if I keep borrowing, if I

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Speaker 3: keep taxing, that's what I need to do, and that's

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Speaker 3: caused the mess that we're in. We were in this,

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Speaker 3: you know, there were lots of opportunities earlier. As I

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Speaker 3: said when I first became leader of the National Party,

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Speaker 3: there are amber lights on that dashboard. Start adjusting now,

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Speaker 3: because when you don't, you've got a lot of pain

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Speaker 3: and suffering coming at you.

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Speaker 2: With employment.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go down a rabbit hole. But

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Speaker 1: as I look at the numbers, I mean, Q three's

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Speaker 1: almost certainly going to be negative. That's three recessions in

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Speaker 1: two years. You can't know me a country that's as

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Speaker 1: bad as that, can you?

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Speaker 2: Well, we're coming out. We did it pretty tough, there's

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Speaker 2: no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: We did it tougher than anybody.

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Speaker 3: Well, we had monetary policy where we were printing a

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Speaker 3: lot of cash, a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: But the guy is delivering it tomorrow is the guy

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Speaker 1: who did it? Well, have you got it that wrong

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Speaker 1: going in? Is it possibly he's got it wrong going out?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think he's got a partner with fiscal policy,

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Speaker 3: with a government that's actually saying we've got to get

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Speaker 3: these books in order and get some financial discipline into

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Speaker 3: the joint You and I have had tough conversations around

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Speaker 3: Dunedin Hospital and other other places. The reason we're being

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Speaker 3: disciplined about that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Is for this very reason.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's easy to say you'd like to spend more,

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Speaker 3: I'd like to borrow more, I'd like to tax more,

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Speaker 3: but that isn't the way forward.

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Speaker 1: Peter sild the House last week that December thirteen is

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Speaker 1: the if not before that, you're going to announce the

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Speaker 1: fiery deal.

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Speaker 2: We're going to make sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that'll that'll be a year since we've announced that

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Speaker 3: we were stopping i Rex, which was the old project,

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Speaker 3: and so we're working hard on.

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Speaker 1: So an announcement's coming by December thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Here's correct, insane, we get an announcement out by the

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Speaker 3: end of the year.

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Speaker 1: So given it to the end of November and two

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Speaker 1: weeks time, you're not going to close the deal within

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Speaker 1: two weeks on something that large, you've clearly done the

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Speaker 1: deal already. Correct, Well, we'll.

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Speaker 2: Have more to say about that, Mike.

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Speaker 1: So I know I know you're to say answer. All

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Speaker 1: I'm saying is you clearly can't make a commitment.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about the theories before the end of the

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Speaker 2: d the deal.

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Speaker 1: The deal is clearly in place? Is that fair to

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Speaker 1: say that because you can't close a deal between now

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Speaker 1: and December thirteen, it's clearly in place.

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Speaker 3: Well, all I'd say is that we are going to

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Speaker 3: get a solution in place. It's important we get a

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Speaker 3: good one in place, and we'll do that.

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Speaker 1: Have you got it in place?

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Speaker 2: We'll have more to say about it very shortly.

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Speaker 1: No, just just humorous all to the extent. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to know the detail. I just want to know,

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Speaker 1: is there a deal? Has it been done? And you

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Speaker 1: will announce it by the.

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Speaker 3: We will announce it for the end of the year.

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Speaker 3: And there's always ongoing conversation.

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Speaker 1: So is it's still live?

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Speaker 3: I just say to you it's coming, Mike. That's why

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Speaker 3: I just tell you it'll be fine. You'll you'll know

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Speaker 3: when you know.

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Speaker 1: Has it got some rails involved?

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Speaker 2: You'll know.

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Speaker 1: Can you get a train on and off?

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Speaker 3: You definitely can. Well you can't get you can get it, well,

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Speaker 3: you can get. You can get it's rail. It'll be

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Speaker 3: rail compatible. Put it that way, not rail and able.

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Speaker 3: It'll be rail compatible. But as it is today, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: very well.

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Speaker 1: Will it require a lot of infrastructure?

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Speaker 3: I can tell you it's going to be done a

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Speaker 3: lot cheaper than three point two billion dollars?

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Speaker 1: Is it three or four hundred million dollars?

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Speaker 2: Again, Mike, we'll have to wait and say.

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Speaker 1: Will in the December of the thirteenth question these a

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Speaker 1: good question. Well, I've got a text already saying, hey, Mike,

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Speaker 1: how about it being a bit nicer to the Prime minister?

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Speaker 1: So that's gone out the door.

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Speaker 2: How about being nicer to the problem.

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Speaker 1: How about being nice is the Prime minister? So by

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Speaker 1: December thirteen, will we know the exit cost of cancelation.

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Speaker 3: We will have a full announcement, as we've committed to

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Speaker 3: by the end of the year.

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Speaker 1: But it will be here's here's what we're doing going forward,

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Speaker 1: plus here's what it costs.

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Speaker 3: You have to just wait and see. Mike, I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 3: but odes is the.

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Speaker 1: Re stoush building between you and David teamore But why

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Speaker 1: Katto in the medical school?

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Speaker 3: No, Look, I mean we've got we're in the stage

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Speaker 3: of wanting a detailed business case for that. It's important

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Speaker 3: it gets a really good commercial appraisal and run over.

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Speaker 3: But all respect David sem was not the Minister of Health.

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Speaker 3: He's the Minister of regulation. He needs to focus on that.

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Speaker 3: Shane Ready's the Minister of Health and are.

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Speaker 1: You hung up on why Katta or could you expand

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Speaker 1: by Otiger?

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Speaker 3: Well, we've always said we're subject to a commercial appraisal

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Speaker 3: and we've done an initial business case. We want a

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Speaker 3: detailed business case.

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Speaker 1: You're happy with the initial business case because that was

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Speaker 1: Seymour's problem he said the cost per students too high? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we look.

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Speaker 3: I mean again, no disrespect. I mean David's the Minister

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Speaker 3: of Regulation. They ain't the Minister of health. And so

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Speaker 3: Shane Ready is leading us through that process. We're making

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Speaker 3: sure there's good commercial appraisal over it. We understand you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a big investment and like everything, we want to

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Speaker 3: make sure we've got more rigorous, robust business cases. And

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Speaker 3: that's been part of the problem and what we've seen

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Speaker 3: and what we've inherited. So we'll work our way through

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Speaker 3: that and we'll come to a conclusion once we see

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Speaker 3: those numbers.

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Speaker 1: And talk to me about August. Has anything happened on

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Speaker 1: August since what we've been involved for about three or

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Speaker 1: four years now? You keep saying, oh, we're looking at it,

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Speaker 1: how long you look it?

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Speaker 3: I have to say it's going slowly and because you've

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Speaker 3: got you know, you've had change of leadership in the

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Speaker 3: August countries themselves, I suspect, but our officials are still

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Speaker 3: continuing to talk.

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Speaker 1: So is it live still in the way it has

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Speaker 1: been live? Or has Trump changed everything?

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Speaker 3: No, No, that that hasn't been the change. What it

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Speaker 3: has been is just you know, acknowledging that you've probably

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Speaker 3: you know with Ko Starmer and Anthony Albaniz you have

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Speaker 3: a change of leadership at the UK of the Australian end.

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Speaker 3: But more importantly you know that it's been slove and

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Speaker 3: it always was going to be, you know, and there's

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Speaker 3: no real change.

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Speaker 1: From the slower the view to what will know more

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Speaker 1: when this year, next week, the year after.

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Speaker 3: We're sort of moving at the pace that August countries

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Speaker 3: want to be able to work with and they've got obviously, well.

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Speaker 1: The last was Canada wanted something tangible done by the

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Speaker 1: time he left office, which is January.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's not happening. And so you know you've

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Speaker 3: got claims in there from also Canada and also I

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Speaker 3: think from Japan and New Zealand, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: we're working it through with those officials.

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Speaker 2: But no real change from what.

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Speaker 1: Okay, super quick the the COP thing with this carbon

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Speaker 1: trading that Simon was involved with there in some big

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Speaker 1: international market. Given we're so useless at trading carbon here

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Speaker 1: and our auctions don't work, is this international model going

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Speaker 1: to be any different?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think he's actually done a really good job.

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Speaker 3: He's worked with the Singaporeans have actually done you know,

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Speaker 3: we tend to do as interesting. You say that because

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Speaker 3: as meaning with the Singaporean Prime Minister and Apek again,

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Speaker 3: I've PROMI met with them four or five times this year.

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Speaker 3: And actually there's a lot that New Zealand and Singapore

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Speaker 3: want to do together more and often. We are the

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Speaker 3: guys that started CPTPP for example, we've done a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of stuff and free trade and as small countries,

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Speaker 3: I think we can model this out, but there is

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Speaker 3: actually a need for us to get carbon markets working better.

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Speaker 3: Simon Watts is doing a great job. It's probably the

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Speaker 3: one thing of COP that I could see that sort

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Speaker 3: of came through pretty cleanly and articulately. And he's got

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Speaker 3: a finance background and increasingly climate change is an economic portfolio,

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Speaker 3: not just an environmental thing, and so he's all over that,

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Speaker 3: and I think you'll do very well.

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Speaker 1: All right, good to see Chris Reluxen. For more from

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Speaker 1: the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to News Talk Set

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Speaker 1: B from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.