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Speaker 1: The new government's call for more sanctions against beneficiaries who

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Speaker 1: don't meet their obligations appears to have been answered by

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Speaker 1: the Ministry of Social Development. The number of sanctions issued

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Speaker 1: by MSD in the second quarter of this year is

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Speaker 1: fifty percent higher than during the same period last year.

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Speaker 1: Social Development and Employment Minister Louise ups and says why

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Speaker 1: do use of sanctions will encourage more beneficiaries to get

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Speaker 1: into work? Ricardo min Indez march is the Green Party's

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Speaker 1: spokesperson for Social Development and Employment and joins us now

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Speaker 1: killed up sort of, Dak, you're not happy about this.

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Speaker 2: We know benefit sanctions have never worked to actually support

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Speaker 2: people into employment, and all they do is actually push

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Speaker 2: people into poverty. So Louis Substan's actually talking nonsense when

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Speaker 2: she claims a bill encourage people into employment by actually

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Speaker 2: stripping away their means of survival.

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Speaker 1: Really, is it that hard to turn up for a meeting.

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Speaker 2: Let's make it clear. A lot of the people who

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Speaker 2: are on the benefit are leaving living extremely stressful lives,

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Speaker 2: often shifting motel to motel, experience and things like homelessness, violence,

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Speaker 2: or severe poverty. Some people actually in research they've talked

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Speaker 2: about how being on the benefit it's almost like a

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Speaker 2: full time job by the nature of just how many

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Speaker 2: times you have to engage work and income while you're

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Speaker 2: just trying to survive as well.

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Speaker 1: So give us a worse case scenario, how much do

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Speaker 1: they have to turn up?

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Speaker 3: What do they have to do?

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Speaker 2: Well, Look, often, if you're already having to choose between

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Speaker 2: your bills and paying your rent, you may not even

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Speaker 2: be able to afford, for example, to get enough money

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Speaker 2: to have credit on your phone. You may not be

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Speaker 2: able to afford the cost of transport. And at the

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Speaker 2: same time, let's not pretend that a lot of these

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Speaker 2: meetings are actually meaningful. A lot of the meetings that

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Speaker 2: people are dragged onto are TikTok exercises that don't help

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Speaker 2: people getting too meaningful employments. And if you're a parent

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Speaker 2: with giving responsibilities and you're forced to attend seminar after

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Speaker 2: seminar that doesn't actually help you get a job, I

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Speaker 2: can absolutely see why people are being demoralized by a

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Speaker 2: failed approach that has not worked for a decade.

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Speaker 1: The ricarda If most of your social development doesn't apply sanctions,

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Speaker 1: what incentive is there for anyone to actually follow the

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Speaker 1: rules and meet their obligations.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's make this. Let's make the processes actually support

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Speaker 2: people into employment, because so far the so called obligations

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Speaker 2: on work seminnres that people have to go to have

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Speaker 2: not shown to actually help people into employment. There's also

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Speaker 2: no research that shows benefit sanctions actually help people into employment.

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Speaker 2: There's no reason here or overseas, and so I think

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Speaker 2: the first step would be to make those work seminars

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Speaker 2: tailored to ensure that we're connecting people into decent, safe,

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Speaker 2: well paid work rather than any shitty job, no matter

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Speaker 2: how poor it is, just for the sake of taking

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Speaker 2: a box.

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Speaker 1: Rikato, do you reckon, just philosophically, that there are some

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Speaker 1: people out there who just don't want to work.

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Speaker 2: There may be people with complex life and caregiving arrangements,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think it's the minister's job to actually

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Speaker 2: dictate each person's individual kids.

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Speaker 1: So, just philosophically, do you believe there are some people

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Speaker 1: receiving benefits who just don't want.

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Speaker 2: To work, Whether there may be one or ten, it

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Speaker 2: does not. It does not mean benefits help, but benefits

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Speaker 2: sanctions have not been shown to work. Jack, So I

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Speaker 2: think just peddling with the same failed approach want to

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Speaker 2: actually help anyone. And it's also quite rich for the

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Speaker 2: government to be kicking people off work, cutting jobs and

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Speaker 2: pushing people onto a benefit well at the same time

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Speaker 2: doubling down a punishment and yet not being able to

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Speaker 2: substantiate the millions of dollars that go into these works

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Speaker 2: seminars that have not shown to help people into good work.

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Speaker 2: We've got plenty of reports that show that people get

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Speaker 2: just pushed into casual jobs that end up costing more

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Speaker 2: in chalthcare that are insecure as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, while we've got your Ricardo, have you have

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Speaker 1: you spoken to any of the other Green and peas

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Speaker 1: about potentially invoking the Waker jumping law with darlingne Tana.

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Speaker 2: Look, the party, people in the party will of course

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Speaker 2: have those conversations because it's a democratic party. But right

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Speaker 2: now our key message remains the same that Darley needs

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Speaker 2: to resign and do the right time.

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Speaker 3: Have you have you had those compsations.

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Speaker 2: We have not had a caucus meeting to discuss that.

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Speaker 3: If you've spoken to other bell we have.

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Speaker 2: Not had those conversations. And the reality is we'll need

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Speaker 2: to actually have caucus meetings following Darlene's decision. She still

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Speaker 2: has talked about how she's making up her mind about

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Speaker 2: what she'll do with her future, and we've made it

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Speaker 2: really clear to her that we think that the best

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Speaker 2: outcome would be for her to resign.

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Speaker 1: One last question, would you personally support putting the Walker

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Speaker 1: jumping decision to the party membership at the AGM?

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I haven't even thought of the off

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Speaker 2: the AGEM at that point, because my hope is that

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Speaker 2: by the.

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Speaker 3: Come on, come on, you gotta have thought of it.

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Speaker 3: Come on.

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Speaker 1: So if the option was we can we can put

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Speaker 1: this to a vote at the AGM for Green Party members.

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Speaker 1: Given your commitment to democracy and transparency, would you support

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Speaker 1: throwing that decision over to Green Party members?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a complete misinterpretation of how the bill

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Speaker 2: actually works because it does not rely on party members.

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Speaker 1: No, but if party members voted for you guys to

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Speaker 1: invoke it, would you support putting that decision to party

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Speaker 1: members for you as the caucus to then invoke.

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Speaker 2: If members want to put a remat at the AGM.

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Speaker 2: But it's completely up to them. But the reality is,

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Speaker 2: and as we've said before, and as somebody who works

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Speaker 2: very closely on migrant exploitian issues. I think the right

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Speaker 2: thing for Darling to do would be to refign.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for your time, we really appreciate it. Ricardo

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Speaker 1: and INDI's much For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,

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