1 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:12,013 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed Be 2 00:00:12,413 --> 00:00:16,213 Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,773 --> 00:00:19,893 Speaker 2: Leading global experts at Australia could build its first nuclear 4 00:00:19,933 --> 00:00:22,773 Speaker 2: actor within twelve years. Dutton loves it, but the current 5 00:00:22,813 --> 00:00:25,332 Speaker 2: government Australia hates it. But what about here? Is it 6 00:00:25,372 --> 00:00:28,973 Speaker 2: time to open our minds to nuclear power generation? It's 7 00:00:29,013 --> 00:00:32,492 Speaker 2: getting cheaper, there's innovations all over the shop. If we 8 00:00:32,533 --> 00:00:35,133 Speaker 2: don't open our minds now, will we be left behind? 9 00:00:35,732 --> 00:00:38,213 Speaker 2: And to that end, we've managed to track down we 10 00:00:38,253 --> 00:00:40,493 Speaker 2: thought it'd be important to because I'm not a physicist. 11 00:00:40,613 --> 00:00:42,492 Speaker 3: No surprisingly neither am I. 12 00:00:42,492 --> 00:00:45,053 Speaker 2: I do spend a lot of time watching physics videos 13 00:00:45,092 --> 00:00:48,292 Speaker 2: on YouTube and my feed is absolutely packed with them 14 00:00:48,492 --> 00:00:52,292 Speaker 2: because I'm interested in it. But I'm not smart enough 15 00:00:52,333 --> 00:00:54,933 Speaker 2: to fully understand things. So we've tracked down an expert 16 00:00:54,973 --> 00:00:55,892 Speaker 2: from Walkland University. 17 00:00:55,973 --> 00:00:58,133 Speaker 3: We certainly have and he's on the line now. His 18 00:00:58,253 --> 00:01:01,493 Speaker 3: name is doctor David kraft Cheek. He's a senior lecturer 19 00:01:01,533 --> 00:01:04,573 Speaker 3: in physics at the University of Auckland. David, A very 20 00:01:04,613 --> 00:01:08,293 Speaker 3: good afternoon to you, thanks for having the doctor. 21 00:01:08,373 --> 00:01:10,893 Speaker 2: Croft check holf sife is nuclear power generation? 22 00:01:11,533 --> 00:01:14,212 Speaker 4: It's safer than you hear in the news, because you 23 00:01:14,253 --> 00:01:19,853 Speaker 4: hear terrible disasters in Fukushima and Chernobyl and in my 24 00:01:19,932 --> 00:01:23,133 Speaker 4: home state of Pennsylvania, even in the nineteen seventies three 25 00:01:23,173 --> 00:01:29,133 Speaker 4: Mile Island. But these are really abnormal events that are 26 00:01:29,173 --> 00:01:34,133 Speaker 4: not the normal path for the operation of nuclear power plants. 27 00:01:34,493 --> 00:01:34,652 Speaker 1: Now. 28 00:01:34,693 --> 00:01:38,093 Speaker 2: When it comes to the waste product of nuclear power generation, 29 00:01:38,133 --> 00:01:41,053 Speaker 2: I understand that around ninety six percine of it can 30 00:01:41,093 --> 00:01:45,092 Speaker 2: be reused, but how syfe is the disposal of the 31 00:01:45,133 --> 00:01:46,292 Speaker 2: final full pacine. 32 00:01:46,533 --> 00:01:50,253 Speaker 4: Most of the waste now is stored on site in 33 00:01:50,293 --> 00:01:53,573 Speaker 4: these nuclear power plants, and that's kind of a shame 34 00:01:53,693 --> 00:01:59,133 Speaker 4: because I know that in the US there was underground 35 00:01:59,213 --> 00:02:04,093 Speaker 4: burial facilities constructed in Yuca Mountain, which is a big 36 00:02:04,373 --> 00:02:10,252 Speaker 4: mountain range stable geology in Nevada, and that seems to work. 37 00:02:10,293 --> 00:02:13,133 Speaker 4: And there are test sites also built in Los Alamos, 38 00:02:13,173 --> 00:02:17,373 Speaker 4: New Mexico, and then underground tunnels into the mountain, and 39 00:02:17,693 --> 00:02:23,132 Speaker 4: in Finland, as it's already dug another underground tunnel which 40 00:02:23,133 --> 00:02:26,373 Speaker 4: you'll start taking its first waste from their nuclear power 41 00:02:26,373 --> 00:02:30,373 Speaker 4: plants next year in twenty twenty five. So there are 42 00:02:30,493 --> 00:02:36,773 Speaker 4: solutions for this. It is really the initial fear of 43 00:02:37,532 --> 00:02:43,412 Speaker 4: insurance and these kinds of costs, non scientific costs that 44 00:02:44,013 --> 00:02:49,972 Speaker 4: have made storage long term storage of nuclear fission waste 45 00:02:50,893 --> 00:02:52,093 Speaker 4: almost unachievable. 46 00:02:52,293 --> 00:02:57,053 Speaker 3: What the advancement of technology doctor has the argument considerably 47 00:02:57,173 --> 00:03:00,453 Speaker 3: changed in terms of feasibility of nuclear power in New Zealand. 48 00:03:00,653 --> 00:03:04,972 Speaker 4: The technology change that has me most intrigued as a 49 00:03:05,053 --> 00:03:10,373 Speaker 4: small modular reactors. Now, these devices would be good for 50 00:03:10,453 --> 00:03:16,093 Speaker 4: baseline power and they're about maybe one hundred times smaller 51 00:03:16,972 --> 00:03:22,732 Speaker 4: in power output than your conventional nuclear power plant. And 52 00:03:23,373 --> 00:03:26,453 Speaker 4: dozens of small startup companies around the world are racing 53 00:03:26,493 --> 00:03:32,292 Speaker 4: to get a small modular reactor size of freight containers 54 00:03:32,453 --> 00:03:37,452 Speaker 4: for example, around the world. And there fits and starts 55 00:03:37,813 --> 00:03:41,693 Speaker 4: to the first generation of anything, And I think the 56 00:03:41,773 --> 00:03:45,173 Speaker 4: first generation of automobiles of the first generation of small 57 00:03:45,213 --> 00:03:48,693 Speaker 4: modular reactors. So people are exactly sure which model will 58 00:03:48,733 --> 00:03:52,733 Speaker 4: win out in the end. So maybe in the twenty thirties, 59 00:03:52,813 --> 00:03:55,293 Speaker 4: I think if that is when most of these companies 60 00:03:55,333 --> 00:03:57,973 Speaker 4: are really going to produce the first models. But you 61 00:03:58,013 --> 00:04:00,053 Speaker 4: really want to get one that comes off like an 62 00:04:00,053 --> 00:04:03,733 Speaker 4: assembly line once the model has been proven to be 63 00:04:03,933 --> 00:04:07,213 Speaker 4: cross effective and working. And I think i'd love for 64 00:04:07,293 --> 00:04:10,733 Speaker 4: new Zealand to be open minded above that to provide 65 00:04:10,773 --> 00:04:16,133 Speaker 4: baseline power because we can do our sore energy and 66 00:04:16,253 --> 00:04:20,773 Speaker 4: we can do our wind power, but the intermittency problem 67 00:04:20,773 --> 00:04:22,853 Speaker 4: there just doesn't go away. 68 00:04:23,133 --> 00:04:25,653 Speaker 2: So if New Zealand wants to be part of a 69 00:04:25,733 --> 00:04:31,613 Speaker 2: future that involves nuclear energy, what should we do now? 70 00:04:31,693 --> 00:04:34,413 Speaker 2: Do we need to open up our minds to it 71 00:04:34,533 --> 00:04:37,693 Speaker 2: or do we have to change laws to look into it. 72 00:04:37,693 --> 00:04:41,693 Speaker 4: It's more a way of thinking because we fact right 73 00:04:41,733 --> 00:04:45,493 Speaker 4: now we could probably somewhere around ninety percent of our 74 00:04:45,613 --> 00:04:49,253 Speaker 4: energy is renewable sources, which is amazing, and I'm really 75 00:04:49,253 --> 00:04:53,452 Speaker 4: confident that we could eventually reach you practically one hundred 76 00:04:53,453 --> 00:04:57,293 Speaker 4: percent renewable energy in New Zeo. But with the climate 77 00:04:57,413 --> 00:05:02,733 Speaker 4: changing and maybe water sources drying up so your hydropower 78 00:05:02,773 --> 00:05:07,933 Speaker 4: doesn't become as readily available, and intermittency with wind and sun, 79 00:05:09,453 --> 00:05:14,533 Speaker 4: we just need to live through this and that will change. 80 00:05:14,773 --> 00:05:19,573 Speaker 4: I suspect that's the practical changes that people will experience 81 00:05:19,853 --> 00:05:24,093 Speaker 4: and leave them maybe more open minded for small modular 82 00:05:24,213 --> 00:05:25,013 Speaker 4: type reactor. 83 00:05:25,853 --> 00:05:29,093 Speaker 2: So you're signing within fifteen twenty years there might be 84 00:05:29,133 --> 00:05:33,733 Speaker 2: a financial and sif why that we could bring nuclear 85 00:05:33,773 --> 00:05:37,093 Speaker 2: power into New Zealand that would add that would add 86 00:05:37,133 --> 00:05:40,813 Speaker 2: to a grid and be a benefit for New Zealand. 87 00:05:41,493 --> 00:05:44,173 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm not sure I would want to 88 00:05:44,173 --> 00:05:48,133 Speaker 4: be the first country the very first model off the floor, 89 00:05:49,253 --> 00:05:51,093 Speaker 4: the new sports car. Do you really want to buy 90 00:05:51,093 --> 00:05:53,973 Speaker 4: that new sports car when it's the first version? And 91 00:05:54,013 --> 00:05:57,293 Speaker 4: we were fortunately able to have such renewable energy that 92 00:05:57,373 --> 00:06:01,173 Speaker 4: we can wait and watch and then pick the time 93 00:06:01,253 --> 00:06:07,413 Speaker 4: when the small modular reactors are actually feasible, because right 94 00:06:07,453 --> 00:06:12,013 Speaker 4: now costs changing and rising, and there's different technologies and 95 00:06:12,053 --> 00:06:14,253 Speaker 4: different attempts and we're not quite sure which one will 96 00:06:14,253 --> 00:06:16,773 Speaker 4: be the winner yet. So I don't want to pick 97 00:06:16,813 --> 00:06:18,933 Speaker 4: a winner right now. I want to see who are 98 00:06:18,973 --> 00:06:22,653 Speaker 4: actually going to win before we couldn't move into it. 99 00:06:22,933 --> 00:06:24,333 Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you so much for your time. That 100 00:06:24,453 --> 00:06:28,533 Speaker 2: was Dr David Kroftchek's senior lecture in physics at Oakland University. 101 00:06:29,733 --> 00:06:32,413 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on 102 00:06:32,453 --> 00:06:35,453 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 103 00:06:35,493 --> 00:06:38,053 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.