Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Louise Ari and I'm Francesco bud Can and
Speaker 1: this is season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast
Speaker 1: The Little Things.
Speaker 2: Good to have you with us. In this podcast we
Speaker 2: talk to experts and find out all the little things
Speaker 2: you need to know to improve as many areas of
Speaker 2: your life as possible. And today we've got a parenting
Speaker 2: app for you now.
Speaker 1: The themes discussed and the TV show Adolescents have been
Speaker 1: around for quite a while, but the Netflix show has
Speaker 1: really hit a nerve with people, and Keir Starmer in particular.
Speaker 1: In particular, we've been wondering where he's been here. Louise,
Speaker 1: are you familiar with the world of Themselves and Red
Speaker 1: Pills and things?
Speaker 2: Well? I am now from the show, but I suppose
Speaker 2: I did know about them, but it didn't take too
Speaker 2: much notice. What about you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I was pretty familiar with it. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people are familiar with the concept and
Speaker 1: what it was all about. When I was talking about it,
Speaker 1: my children just started laughing and saying, can you please
Speaker 1: just not use the terminology you're using. You sound like
Speaker 1: you're on four Chan in two thousand and.
Speaker 2: Fifty, It's already as soon as we know about it, it's
Speaker 2: already out of date.
Speaker 1: You sound like you're a tumbler. On twenty ten, I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, all right, thank you very much. All Right,
Speaker 1: I won't use all the I won't use all the terminology.
Speaker 1: But look, I think when it comes down to the
Speaker 1: TV show and being shocking and things I think we've
Speaker 1: covered through my job, I've covered a lot of stories
Speaker 1: about sexual violence online and in person towards women, and
Speaker 1: so I didn't think it was huge in you. I
Speaker 1: think that there have been shows like Criminal Minds that
Speaker 1: have been doing stories about in cells, you know, decade
Speaker 1: or so ago. Like I think it wasn't you. But
Speaker 1: I suppose the thing is this is a really good
Speaker 1: tally show. Artistically, I thought This Adolescence was a fantastic show.
Speaker 1: I think it's brilliantly put together and really well acted.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the I don't think it's trying
Speaker 1: to be the definitive word in this area. But I
Speaker 1: think and I don't think, you know, you should look
Speaker 1: at it that way. It is a drama, it's not
Speaker 1: a documentary, and it started some good conversations. But we
Speaker 1: want to be making sure we're having the right conversations
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And I think you know how I felt about it.
Speaker 2: I first started watching it when this is nothing new,
Speaker 2: This is no surprise. Why is everybody so shocked? Why
Speaker 2: is this taking the world by storm? Talk to my
Speaker 2: own children, they were like, you know, my younger son
Speaker 2: was like, we don't talk to each other like that,
Speaker 2: so you know. But I'm like, you're not living in
Speaker 2: the UK and a huge population and a stressful environment.
Speaker 2: But then and then my daughter's like, oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't get It's no surprise to me either. So
Speaker 2: those are the conversations we were having. But what we
Speaker 2: all do agree on is that it is starting the conversation,
Speaker 2: even if we think it's maybe a decade or two
Speaker 2: too late. But I was left thinking, Okay, we're too
Speaker 2: from here. How can we really embrace this sudden swelling
Speaker 2: and create the momentum we need to help all of us, boys, girls,
Speaker 2: me and women live better alongside each other. If you
Speaker 2: have watched the TV show, you'll know that the final
Speaker 2: episode is a bit of a come to Jesus moment
Speaker 2: for the parents of this young boy accused of murdering
Speaker 2: a girl at his school. They reflect on their son,
Speaker 2: his behavior and their parenting as we all would, and
Speaker 2: I think many parents are probably thinking, though, how do
Speaker 2: we make sure that we're on top of us so
Speaker 2: we understand what's going on and we help our child
Speaker 2: if he's struggling to stay afloat. So today we set
Speaker 2: shine low. We have an expert, Andrew Rayner, author of
Speaker 2: Better Boys, Better Men, than New Masculinity. He's also a
Speaker 2: senior lecturer at Towson University in Maryland, where he teaches
Speaker 2: courses in men's and cultural studies. Thanks for being with us, Andrew.
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's wonderful to be with you both.
Speaker 1: I first started hearing about in culs and red pills
Speaker 1: and things like that quite a long time ago, probably
Speaker 1: a decade or so ago. And my first thought when
Speaker 1: I saw the react to this TV show was have
Speaker 1: we missed the boat here and talking about all this stuff?
Speaker 1: Could have we made a difference earlier?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, I you know, I think I think
Speaker 3: quite a few people who have really been following, you know,
Speaker 3: the manisphere and this movement of in cells. You know,
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people have probably had two thoughts.
Speaker 3: One is that you know, why has it taken this
Speaker 3: long to have this conversation? And the second one is,
Speaker 3: oh my god, you know, this is this is just
Speaker 3: you know, so much worse than I thought it was.
Speaker 3: It's it's a little more complicated than that. It really is.
Speaker 3: It's understandable that any of us, as parents and even educators,
Speaker 3: you know, would be concerned when we hear boys, for instance,
Speaker 3: you know, talking amongst their friends about influencers who are
Speaker 3: in these spaces. We hear them, you know, saying things
Speaker 3: that make us cringe, you know, quite quite literally. There's
Speaker 3: a side to this that I feel like shows like
Speaker 3: adolescents and and mostly a lot of conversations don't really cover.
Speaker 3: And that's the side of the boys. And and I'm
Speaker 3: doing research actually right now, I'm doing a lot of
Speaker 3: research and writing for my second book, and and I
Speaker 3: decided that I'm going to do a chapter basically on this,
Speaker 3: you know, on this this really kind of frenetic concern
Speaker 3: that we're you know, developing in some cases understandably over
Speaker 3: the manisphere, over you know, the in cells. And what
Speaker 3: I'm trying to do is really bring some more context
Speaker 3: to the conversation that I feel like we're getting in
Speaker 3: the States, for instance, and I think the UK to
Speaker 3: a larger degree, maybe even so the New Zealand. There
Speaker 3: there's a lot of immediate reactivity when people see this.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of you know, see I told you so,
Speaker 3: and and this is this just you know, makes makes
Speaker 3: us realize, just this is even worse than we've even
Speaker 3: been saying it was all along. And one of the
Speaker 3: things I think is really important for us to remember
Speaker 3: is that yes, there absolutely are more boys and young
Speaker 3: men going into these spaces, and that is, of course,
Speaker 3: of course cause for concern. The show also is fictitious,
Speaker 3: even though you know, of course the writers and the
Speaker 3: creators have done of course, you know, it's on their radar,
Speaker 3: they've done a little bit of research. It is a
Speaker 3: fictitious show. And I think most importantly, we're really not
Speaker 3: asking the important questions of boys, which is why, you know,
Speaker 3: why why are many of them being drawn to these
Speaker 3: spaces in the first place. I feel like when it
Speaker 3: comes to boys, and it's been this way for a while,
Speaker 3: I feel like we have a lot of conversations that
Speaker 3: are kind of over their heads, you know, the conversations
Speaker 3: that we're having about them. We're not really, you know,
Speaker 3: getting into the trenches with boys and having these conversations.
Speaker 3: And I think that's really important. And that's one of
Speaker 3: the things I've been doing in research for my new book,
Speaker 3: because I feel like so often, and I did this
Speaker 3: to some extent in my first book, we talk a
Speaker 3: lot about boys in the abstract. You know, we might
Speaker 3: talk a little bit with them, some boys that might
Speaker 3: be willing to talk in the vast minority, but we
Speaker 3: often we often really kind of talk over them, and
Speaker 3: we have our own ideas about, you know, how they
Speaker 3: should you know, how they should be seeing themselves as
Speaker 3: young men, and what they should be talking about, and
Speaker 3: what they should be thinking about a lot of the
Speaker 3: issues that are important to us. And one of the
Speaker 3: things that I'm hoping a show like this will do.
Speaker 3: Rather than saying, see, there's just all this toxic masculinity
Speaker 3: out there, I'm really hoping it will open doors to
Speaker 3: conversations with boys. I am more convinced than ever this
Speaker 3: is where we need to go.
Speaker 1: I like your description of the re action frenetic. I
Speaker 1: think that sums it up nicely, and.
Speaker 2: Also liked the use of the word cringe because I
Speaker 2: did talk about this. I have two sons and a daughter,
Speaker 2: and all of them were like, oh, cringe, mum. So
Speaker 2: you know there are right headed young men out there
Speaker 2: who see this for well what it is. It doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that they're not vulnerable to it though, right so
Speaker 2: you know, still keep an eye on it and stuff,
Speaker 2: and it gets more clever to capture some of those kids.
Speaker 2: So basically, if we go so you've explained, you know,
Speaker 2: talked about the franeticness of the reaction to this and
Speaker 2: the conversations that started, which I think we all agree
Speaker 2: however we felt about the show it has That's something
Speaker 2: I am grateful for that it has started those conversations
Speaker 2: again and put them really front page. But how dangerous
Speaker 2: and harmful are the masculine stereotypes for our boys?
Speaker 3: So the masculine stereotypes for our boys absolutely something to
Speaker 3: be concerned about. And I say this not just limited
Speaker 3: to a lot of the spaces that we call the manisphere.
Speaker 3: Because one of the things that I've been doing in
Speaker 3: the research for my new book is giving out like
Speaker 3: a mental health survey, and one of the things that
Speaker 3: I've been trying to gauge is to give you an
Speaker 3: example of this is also body image concerns. We don't
Speaker 3: tend to think of that as being something that boys
Speaker 3: have to worry about. But we have done a fantastic
Speaker 3: job as well. We finally should with girls and women
Speaker 3: with body image, right, I mean that training is long
Speaker 3: long overdue. What we don't often realize though, is that
Speaker 3: is that that's becoming an issue for boys and men.
Speaker 3: You know, by the time that a lot of boys
Speaker 3: are ten eleven years old, if they're online, they are
Speaker 3: already gettating lots and lots of messages about the type
Speaker 3: of body that they should have if they want to
Speaker 3: be considered you know, competent, ascending men. And it's really
Speaker 3: it's it's the same equivalent of what do you member.
Speaker 3: I assume Barbie dolls were probably a thing over there
Speaker 3: or a version of it, right, yeah, yeah, so we
Speaker 3: have we have the same thing with body image with boys,
Speaker 3: and it's basically, you know, one of the big franchises
Speaker 3: for superheroes in the States is Captain America and I've
Speaker 3: just been using that analogy. Captain America is for boys
Speaker 3: what Barbie's was for girls. It's this this one expected
Speaker 3: body shape and image, you know, body shape and physique
Speaker 3: that you should have if you want to be considered
Speaker 3: quote successful, you know, if you want to if you
Speaker 3: want to really be relevant, this is the body image
Speaker 3: that you really should aspire to. And so I bring
Speaker 3: this up because when we talk about the damaging and
Speaker 3: at times really frightful things messages that boys are being
Speaker 3: exposed to, this is another example also of what they're
Speaker 3: being exposed to. And we know that, you know, their
Speaker 3: brains are far from being developed, they're unsophisticated socially, and
Speaker 3: they're getting a lot of these messages for instance, as
Speaker 3: one example about body image. And there are finally studies
Speaker 3: being done that show, you know, a lot of ecd
Speaker 3: countries that I think it's like twenty five percent of
Speaker 3: boys beginning as young as ages ten or eleven are
Speaker 3: rethinking their dietary habits. Now, for a lot of boys,
Speaker 3: that's a really good thing. We want them to be
Speaker 3: healthier eaters, right. The problem with that is that the
Speaker 3: message they're getting about eating isn't about necessarily becoming healthy eaters.
Speaker 3: It's about eating protein and vegetables only, which is what
Speaker 3: a lot of older boys do when they get into bodybuilding,
Speaker 3: and it's not just about working out to be healthy,
Speaker 3: and I think that's a real that's a real misnomer
Speaker 3: that we have. You know, we think, well, you know,
Speaker 3: lifting weights and building up our core. We know that
Speaker 3: that's good things, especially as we get older. But the
Speaker 3: problem with that is that for boys, it's not just
Speaker 3: about it. It's really not about so much health as
Speaker 3: much as it is about relevancy and about feeling like
Speaker 3: you're not on the outside of the bubble and feeling
Speaker 3: like you're part of this larger, this larger culture. And
Speaker 3: so that is an example of a problem we're having
Speaker 3: because it's not just body dysmorphia for boys, it's also
Speaker 3: mus muscle dysmorphia, and that's becoming a huge issue.
Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. We've both got
Speaker 1: teenage boys, and I think my son started at the
Speaker 1: gym at age sixteen, but your son started at fifteen,
Speaker 1: and they all want to be jacked. And I too
Speaker 1: had been completely taken back at you know, my daughter.
Speaker 1: We have pretty sensible conversations about body, body image and
Speaker 1: things like that, and I've had to I've suddenly gone, Wow,
Speaker 1: all these boys are trying to get to and the
Speaker 1: gym's now you can get a really cheap gym member
Speaker 1: ship that costs you seven dollars a week. And they
Speaker 1: are all in there and they're not trying to get fit. Well,
Speaker 1: some of them are trying to get fitt to play
Speaker 1: rugby or something like that, but most of them are
Speaker 1: in there aspiring to look like something they have seen online.
Speaker 1: I'm really taken back by this. But now it's really
Speaker 1: front and center, I.
Speaker 2: Think, oh yeah, And the marketers are all over it too,
Speaker 2: because every single thing you could buy previously in the
Speaker 2: supermarket that already had an ample amount of protein in
Speaker 2: it now is protein plus. Even your snack bars, right everything.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, and I know exactly the shape you're
Speaker 2: talking about. It's the really broad shoulders going down to
Speaker 2: the nipped waist, but every single muscle you can see.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a tough one for parents too, because
Speaker 2: we're like, well, that's a healthy pursuit. They're in the gym,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But it can also lead down a
Speaker 2: really dangerous road because there are people in the gym
Speaker 2: that are approaching kids about I could you know, I
Speaker 2: could get you even bigger, you know, you could have that,
Speaker 2: you could take this and take that and then and
Speaker 2: like you say that the algorithm fades them more and
Speaker 2: more of the stuff it does.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And and once you know, once they
Speaker 3: start tapping into some of this online and this is
Speaker 3: you know a lot of them, even if they can't
Speaker 3: be on social media, a lot of them are on YouTube.
Speaker 3: That's a really big place for a lot of boys.
Speaker 3: I know, I know this as you probably do for
Speaker 3: my own son who's thirteen, and and it does, it
Speaker 3: feeds the algorithm and they get more and more of it,
Speaker 3: which means that they're getting barraged more and more. And
Speaker 3: and so one of the things that a lot of
Speaker 3: these young men, these older boys and young men checked
Speaker 3: off on my survey was, yes, I do feel pressure
Speaker 3: to have this kind of body image. It's it's it's
Speaker 3: character tourish. It's just like Barbie Wiz for girls and women.
Speaker 3: It's character tourish. But but you're absolutely right, it's that,
Speaker 3: you know, it's that jacked build. We know exactly, you
Speaker 3: know what it looks like. And you know what doesn't
Speaker 3: help is that you know a lot of athletes today
Speaker 3: have these have this body shape regardless of the sport
Speaker 3: that they're playing, which was never the case in the
Speaker 3: past and constantly what they're seeing on TV that they
Speaker 3: watch and movies are these guys, you know, ripping their
Speaker 3: shirts off, And of course they're all built exactly the same,
Speaker 3: right that that built that we're talking about, it is
Speaker 3: it is something that that they really cannot hide from.
Speaker 3: If they're on YouTube or social media and even watching
Speaker 3: TV or movies on Netflix, they can't hide from it.
Speaker 3: And it's just they're getting innundated with that. So that's
Speaker 3: just one example of the of what we're talking about
Speaker 3: of that boys really can't hide from these spaces of
Speaker 3: getting messages that initially might seem kind of positive, right
Speaker 3: as we talked about there are positive elements to this
Speaker 3: great you want to take care of your body, No,
Speaker 3: because it gets it gets to be too extreme, you know,
Speaker 3: until things get to be a problem. The term that
Speaker 3: that they're starting to use is big orexia, which is
Speaker 3: disturbing but sums it up so well because there's an
Speaker 3: there's anorexia, there's an eating disorder attached to this with
Speaker 3: that element of just of adding muscle upon muscle upon
Speaker 3: muscle upon muscle, and that's that's becoming that a lot
Speaker 3: of oecd countries. It's becoming much more of a thing.
Speaker 3: What's also important about a lot of these messages is
Speaker 3: that they are getting messages that often are very subtle,
Speaker 3: sometimes very direct, but they're getting messages really about what
Speaker 3: it means to be a man. And the problem is that,
Speaker 3: to a large extent, we only have so much control
Speaker 3: over our children now, right, I mean, you both know this.
Speaker 3: We only have so much control, regardless of gender identity,
Speaker 3: over our children the way that we used to, solely
Speaker 3: because of social media, and because it's really amped up.
Speaker 3: There's you know, there's always been peer pressure, we know that,
Speaker 3: but the level of peer pressure has really accelerated because
Speaker 3: of social media, and because so many kids now will
Speaker 3: go to friends for advice and for you know, and
Speaker 3: for for suggestions and for advice about things in ways
Speaker 3: that I think they may have been a little bit
Speaker 3: more likely to go to parents in the past. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying everybody would, but a little bit more so
Speaker 3: than now. You know, when I work in a lot
Speaker 3: of boys' schools and I'll talk with them about where
Speaker 3: they go when they need help, it's always the same answer.
Speaker 3: I go to my friends. I go to my friends.
Speaker 3: Do you know what about the school counselor raise your hand?
Speaker 3: I asked this when I was over in New Zealand
Speaker 3: this past summer. I was at six schools. Well, it
Speaker 3: would have been winter for you guys, and I would
Speaker 3: ask that in every boys school, do you think raise
Speaker 3: your hand if you think any of the boys in
Speaker 3: your grade or this room go to the counselor when
Speaker 3: there's something they're really struggling with, crickets, no hands. Perception
Speaker 3: is reality right, which means that if they believe that
Speaker 3: the rest of the guys aren't doing it, why would
Speaker 3: they do it? And so they might have a coach,
Speaker 3: they might have a teacher that they go to. But
Speaker 3: the reflect answer almost always as I go to my
Speaker 3: male friends when they're getting these kinds of messages in
Speaker 3: places like the Manisphere, on YouTube, in other places in
Speaker 3: social media, all these kinds of messages, that means that
Speaker 3: they're basically dealing with a lot of this alone, and
Speaker 3: the feedback that they're getting off and is not talk
Speaker 3: about cringing, it's not what the feedback that we would
Speaker 3: want to be giving them or having them.
Speaker 1: Here, Andrew, if I may, The manisphere itself is used
Speaker 1: to some people. They may have known it exists, but
Speaker 1: maybe not how pervasive and well organized it is. Maybe
Speaker 1: could you just explain it to our listeners and then
Speaker 1: maybe we could talk about how we deal with it.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, So yeah, the manisphere, as you're alluding to,
Speaker 3: it is a lot of different mostly websites, but it
Speaker 3: can also include influencers as well, and so it really
Speaker 3: has become this kind of loose collection. You know, what
Speaker 3: really started out in the manisphere was really on some
Speaker 3: influencers and places like YouTube, and then they would have
Speaker 3: sometimes websites, but a lot of it was really beginning
Speaker 3: on places like YouTube and to some extent in social
Speaker 3: media like Instagram, and you would have these guys and
Speaker 3: to a large extent, it was really pushing back a
Speaker 3: lot against the messages and the pressure a lot of
Speaker 3: these men felt that they were experiencing from feminism. So
Speaker 3: it really began that way, and it really began with
Speaker 3: a lot of these very kind of sledgehammer messages that
Speaker 3: were very over the top, and so there really wasn't
Speaker 3: that much draw, you know, for a lot of older
Speaker 3: boys and young men necessarily. But what it started happening,
Speaker 3: and this has kind of happened concomittantly. Definitely with the
Speaker 3: ascension of feminism, to be sure, but it's also been
Speaker 3: that this in the wellness spaces, and that this is
Speaker 3: true not just with the Manisphere, but in a lot
Speaker 3: of wellness spaces. There's been a kind of co opting
Speaker 3: and a kind of melding of a lot of of
Speaker 3: far right kind of political philosophies that have really eased
Speaker 3: into these wellness spaces. And I don't think it's at
Speaker 3: all coincidence, but some of it is natural, and some
Speaker 3: of it really has been a way to really expand
Speaker 3: the brand and to really it is a way for
Speaker 3: younger people, you know, regardless of gender identity, to really
Speaker 3: get more you know, younger people on board and build
Speaker 3: their platform. You know, it's worth adding. And this is
Speaker 3: something I've been learning through my research more and more
Speaker 3: as I'm learning about more and more about the Manisphere,
Speaker 3: is that the reasons that a lot of boys go
Speaker 3: there are not because they're burgeoning misogynists. It's not because
Speaker 3: they're necessarily even anti feminist. A lot of boys are
Speaker 3: going onto these spaces. And you're gonna have to stay
Speaker 3: with me on this one because I know it might
Speaker 3: sound a little bit extreme, but stay with me on this.
Speaker 3: A lot of boys are going on to these spaces
Speaker 3: because they're seeking acceptance, in validation for their identity as males.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that. One of the things
Speaker 3: that another thing I've been asking in the surveys that
Speaker 3: I've been giving older boys and young men is you know,
Speaker 3: basically giving them like a bunch of boxes to check
Speaker 3: off as to why they think that a lot of
Speaker 3: these manisphere influencers are really you know, getting more traction,
Speaker 3: that they're getting to be more popular, and a lot
Speaker 3: of boys really do believe and feel that that it's
Speaker 3: it's teaching One of the things that they most often
Speaker 3: check off is that it's teaching boys and young men,
Speaker 3: you know, how to be stronger in the face of
Speaker 3: feminism that can sometimes feel you know, a bit hostile.
Speaker 3: And so it's really one of the things that's really
Speaker 3: important to keep in mind is that a lot of
Speaker 3: boys don't go to these places because again they're burgeoning
Speaker 3: misogynists or or they're necessarily you know, anti feminism. A
Speaker 3: lot of them go there because they do feel that
Speaker 3: in different places of their different orbits of their lives,
Speaker 3: our identity is being attacked. It's part of their It's
Speaker 3: an extension of who they are, right, It's their maleness.
Speaker 3: And and you know, this is something I've been I've
Speaker 3: been studying, reading up a lot on and interviewing a
Speaker 3: lot of boys and young men about for a couple
Speaker 3: of years now for my new book. And you know,
Speaker 3: there really are some hostile spaces at times in public
Speaker 3: and it's sometimes in co ed schools. One of the
Speaker 3: things I hear a lot from my male college students
Speaker 3: is that a lot of times when they've been in
Speaker 3: high schools, when they were in co ed high schools,
Speaker 3: and sometimes in the university, they're afraid to speak up
Speaker 3: because they've seen other guys or maybe they had their
Speaker 3: own experience where something they said or how they said it,
Speaker 3: they would get attacked up for it in class, and
Speaker 3: sometimes it was by the teachers, and so they just
Speaker 3: shut down. And so, you know, and I could this
Speaker 3: is something I could I could spend a lot more
Speaker 3: time on around the top the topic of toxic masculinity,
Speaker 3: because that gets thrown around a lot too. The point
Speaker 3: is is that this is their reality, and regardless of
Speaker 3: whether we agree or disagree with it, this is very
Speaker 3: much their reality, and so their identity often feels under siege,
Speaker 3: and so they're looking for a place again, not necessarily
Speaker 3: two tech girls or women, but they're looking for a
Speaker 3: place where they can just feel safe and validated for
Speaker 3: who they are. That's the reason why a lot of
Speaker 3: young men, especially initially go to these spaces. One of
Speaker 3: the things that's also changed that's really important to mention,
Speaker 3: because my own son has been drawn to this, is that,
Speaker 3: for instance, on places like YouTube or on Instagram where
Speaker 3: you get these TikTok videos, or of course on TikTok,
Speaker 3: a lot of the short videos influencers we know use
Speaker 3: a lot of the messages that the more savvy influencers
Speaker 3: will use are often very positive messages that we want
Speaker 3: boys and young men to get about who they are.
Speaker 3: And I'll give you an example what I mean. I
Speaker 3: was talking with my son. We were driving to school.
Speaker 3: That's a great time. Great time, by the way, have
Speaker 3: conversations with your children. I use it all the time,
Speaker 3: driving to school, not back from school at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, driving there in the morning, and I
Speaker 3: said to him, you know, are familiar with Andrew Tate,
Speaker 3: you know, the notorious influencer and he said, you know,
Speaker 3: I think I know, I think I know who he is.
Speaker 3: And he goes, he went on to his phone. He
Speaker 3: doesn't have social media yet, my boyfriend, I have very
Speaker 3: much against that. But he went on. He went onto
Speaker 3: YouTube and there were some TikTok videos on there, and
Speaker 3: so we got to a red light and he said,
Speaker 3: is this the guy? And I said, yeah, that's him.
Speaker 3: And I said, so you're familiar with them? And he said, well,
Speaker 3: there's a couple of things that I've seen some of
Speaker 3: his messages. And I said, oh, so, you know, what
Speaker 3: do you think of them? And again this was an
Speaker 3: example of me not wanting to get you know, hyper
Speaker 3: vigilant and to use that adjective frenzied about what he's
Speaker 3: doing and what he's watching, because boys pick up on
Speaker 3: this and they will shut down if they feel like
Speaker 3: they're being attacked in any way. So I just tried
Speaker 3: to keep my cool and said, okay, you know, let's
Speaker 3: let's see what it is. The message. One of the
Speaker 3: messages that my son liked so much that Andrew Tate
Speaker 3: was saying was that that in order to really it
Speaker 3: was basically that message of you know, learn to control
Speaker 3: what you can control, and not to agonize and worry
Speaker 3: over what you can't control. I had said that to
Speaker 3: him in the car ride to school a month earlier
Speaker 3: because he was freaking out about something, and that was
Speaker 3: exactly what i'd said. And he said to me, you
Speaker 3: just said that to me, you know, a little while ago.
Speaker 3: And I say, you're absolutely right, that is a really
Speaker 3: positive message, and so and so I said to him,
Speaker 3: let's let's go on and find a few other messages,
Speaker 3: which I thought was probably a good thing for both
Speaker 3: of us. And there were some really positive messages, you know.
Speaker 3: When I looked into some of the TikTok videos he
Speaker 3: was posting, there was some messages we absolutely would want
Speaker 3: our sons to hear. So that's what I'm saying when
Speaker 3: I say it's complicated. You know. Part of it is
Speaker 3: that it's a way to build their platform, There's no
Speaker 3: question about it. Right. It's kind of like a gateway drug, right.
Speaker 3: It's a way of getting them in and then you
Speaker 3: can get them in deeper, and that's where the really
Speaker 3: insidious stuff happens when they get in deeper. But initially,
Speaker 3: some of the messages are the kind of messages that
Speaker 3: more boys do really do need to hear. So it's
Speaker 3: a question of how do we encourage the positive messages,
Speaker 3: but then teach them to draw the line and have
Speaker 3: the and learn the boundaries. You know. Personally, what I
Speaker 3: think is better is how do we have these conversations
Speaker 3: ourselves with our sons about these positive messages rather than
Speaker 3: them feeling like they need to go on there to
Speaker 3: hear what we should be talking with them about.
Speaker 1: And I think that's you know, what we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you now. You know, how as parents do
Speaker 1: we step up and help our sounds form those healthy
Speaker 1: identities that maybe you know and fill some of these
Speaker 1: gaps and what can we do to you know, make
Speaker 1: sure that we're raising healthy young men?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And that really is the question, right That's really it.
Speaker 3: That's the crux of it right there. So one of
Speaker 3: the things that I think is important to remember just
Speaker 3: at the base level, and a lot of us, a
Speaker 3: lot of us will find this hard to believe. Boys
Speaker 3: actually are pretty are very relational. And what I mean
Speaker 3: by that is that a lot of boys will do
Speaker 3: whatever you want when they feel like they can trust
Speaker 3: you and you're on their side, which means you're validating
Speaker 3: who they are. I can tell you that as somebody
Speaker 3: who taught middle school, you know, in a previous lifetime.
Speaker 3: One of the things I learned that when I could
Speaker 3: get the boys, especially to know that I was you
Speaker 3: know that that you know, I was basically on their side.
Speaker 3: And that didn't mean, of course, for everything. It just
Speaker 3: meant that, you know, that I cared about who they
Speaker 3: were as people, not just as my students. They would
Speaker 3: start to jump through any hoop I put in front
Speaker 3: of them, you know, no questions asked, for better or
Speaker 3: for worse. But that's one of the things I learned,
Speaker 3: is that and and studies are showing more and more
Speaker 3: that the way that we get boys to really feel
Speaker 3: more connected, and that is a really important thing that
Speaker 3: boys need is to feel connected. Is we need to
Speaker 3: get them to feel that they can trust us. And
Speaker 3: there's lots of ways, of course, as parents, that we
Speaker 3: need to do that. One of the ways, just as
Speaker 3: an example, is when we have conversations with boys and
Speaker 3: they say things that can be cringe worthy. It's really
Speaker 3: important that the way that we respond is not the
Speaker 3: way that we would like to respond, because boys pay
Speaker 3: attention to body language, but they really do when it
Speaker 3: comes to things that matter to them, they pay attention
Speaker 3: to body language, they pay attention to tone, because boys
Speaker 3: are a lot more sensitive than we really want to admit,
Speaker 3: or then we really know they are super sensitive boys.
Speaker 3: There was a great study would show that when it
Speaker 3: came to romantic rejection that boys and young men actually
Speaker 3: held on to those emotions of rejection longer than did
Speaker 3: the girls and young women. Boys are there, and there's
Speaker 3: been research that shows that or every bit men too,
Speaker 3: as you know, having the same degree of emotions as
Speaker 3: as women and girls do. Of course, what we all
Speaker 3: know the problem is that they don't embrace that. They
Speaker 3: don't really they don't really learn how to how to
Speaker 3: access those. So it's really important that when we have
Speaker 3: conversations with our sons, how we how we show up
Speaker 3: for them really does matter. It's really important that you
Speaker 3: know that our heads don't explode in front of them.
Speaker 3: You know that we're not rolling our eyes, that we're
Speaker 3: not showing the exasperation, because because when boys think they
Speaker 3: might be saying something that might be met with rejection,
Speaker 3: they are locked in and paying close attention to the
Speaker 3: person who's facing them. So how we respond to them
Speaker 3: is super important, and it's really important to lead with
Speaker 3: curiosity as opposed to leading with any kind of accusation
Speaker 3: or judgment. It's super important to lead with curiosity. Huh,
Speaker 3: that's interesting that point that you just made. Why do
Speaker 3: you feel this way about that? I mean that right there,
Speaker 3: if nothing else, if we just stick with that one,
Speaker 3: that right there is a great one to lead with.
Speaker 2: I think I think it was you that said, you know,
Speaker 2: just remember when you are talking to them that positions
Speaker 2: and thoughts and the expression of thoughts that changes over time.
Speaker 2: So even if it's cringe worthy in that moment, there's
Speaker 2: just a moment in time of that kid's life, and
Speaker 2: we've got all this benefit of experience, and they actually
Speaker 2: don't you know, whether they think they do all. They
Speaker 2: don't think they do. Often they do think they do.
Speaker 2: But so that we just sit there and listen to it,
Speaker 2: because that position could change in three months, six months,
Speaker 2: a year. They're going to grow up just like everybody else.
Speaker 2: It's a moment in time.
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right that. Yeah, you are so right about that.
Speaker 3: And that's something I know that when we feel threatened
Speaker 3: as parents, and we get scared and we feel vulnerable
Speaker 3: you know, as anybody does, when they feel vulnerable, they
Speaker 3: go to extremes. And you're absolutely right, we need to
Speaker 3: remember that they're are far from being developed and their opinions,
Speaker 3: as you said, are absolutely far from being far from
Speaker 3: being developed as well. And so that's something else that
Speaker 3: we also do need to take with a grain of salt.
Speaker 3: And it's also really important that when when our sons
Speaker 3: do get worked up about something, regardless of what it is,
Speaker 3: it's also really important with how we meet that is
Speaker 3: really important to them feeling trusted, trusting of us. So
Speaker 3: to give you an example what I mean. You know,
Speaker 3: when our sons get really worked up, a lot of
Speaker 3: parents will say, okay, you know, just calm down, you know,
Speaker 3: just calm down, or you're making a really big deal
Speaker 3: about this. Man. If you want to shut your son down,
Speaker 3: say those two things that will do it then and
Speaker 3: in the future.
Speaker 2: To be honest, yes I know.
Speaker 3: I mean if you want to shut me me too,
Speaker 3: If you want to shut me down, say those things
Speaker 3: to me and I will not come back to you again.
Speaker 3: You can imagine what it does to these vulnerable, you know,
Speaker 3: very sensitive boys. So's it's really important that when we
Speaker 3: see them getting worked up. And sometimes, you know, whether
Speaker 3: we want to admit it or not, a lot of
Speaker 3: us really do who have sons, especially as they start
Speaker 3: to get older, you know, teen years and a little
Speaker 3: bit older, a lot of us really do get a
Speaker 3: little bit uncomfortable when they get really for instance, when
Speaker 3: they start to cry, when they get really emotive in
Speaker 3: ways that we think, well, you know, I don't want
Speaker 3: my son reacting this way, and that maybe consciously, but subconsciously,
Speaker 3: some of us respond that way. And boys do pick
Speaker 3: up on that because they feel so vulnerable and they
Speaker 3: don't want to feel vulnerable. And so it's really important
Speaker 3: that we meet them when they do get upset in
Speaker 3: ways that at the very least are just completely neutral.
Speaker 3: Commiseration is great. I can see that you're upset, you
Speaker 3: know what, based on what you just told me happened today,
Speaker 3: I'd probably be upset too if it was me. I
Speaker 3: get it. So, you know what, why don't you just
Speaker 3: you know, take some time and just know that my
Speaker 3: door is open if and when you want to talk
Speaker 3: about this. That is something that a lot of boys
Speaker 3: never get that, you know, just just the commiseration and
Speaker 3: the safe space to know that it's okay to feel
Speaker 3: what you're feeling without any judgment. That's something right off
Speaker 3: the bat they don't get and so and also keeping
Speaker 3: that door open. There was the head of a school
Speaker 3: that I was doing some workout in Canada. He told
Speaker 3: me this amazing story. He said, you know when my sons,
Speaker 3: who are in their twenties now, were younger, and they
Speaker 3: both at different times, would come to me at the
Speaker 3: end of a day and I was exhausted. He said
Speaker 3: he'd be like eleven o'clock at night. They came to
Speaker 3: and wanting to talk and he said, he said, look,
Speaker 3: I'm exhausting. Can we talk about this tomorrow? And he said,
Speaker 3: you know what, this happened with both of them separately.
Speaker 3: They never came back to me. He said, They'll go
Speaker 3: to their mother. And he's the head of a boys
Speaker 3: school and he said, I'm still trying to get them
Speaker 3: to talk with me. And they're in their twenties now.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the little things in I guess on
Speaker 1: the podcast today as yous academic and author Andrew Rayner
Speaker 1: talking about raising boys. We're going to be back after
Speaker 1: this break. Andrew, you're giving us all these really great
Speaker 1: tips for how we make sure that we're open and
Speaker 1: communicating with our sons. I've read a lot of books
Speaker 1: on raising boys, and the one thing that they have
Speaker 1: in common is the importance in the teen years of
Speaker 1: the role of fathers or male mentors in boys' life.
Speaker 1: Should they be leading the charge with some of these
Speaker 1: conversations that you know, we should be having.
Speaker 3: Ideally, yes, ideally yes, now now, I promise I'll come
Speaker 3: back to that. But I think it's also super important
Speaker 3: to point out, as we all know, there are more
Speaker 3: and more single moms out there. Right there's single dads too,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of single moms, and so it's
Speaker 3: really important that they know that they can and do
Speaker 3: and always will play an incredibly important role in their sons' lives.
Speaker 3: Because I personally don't believe it means, you know that
Speaker 3: single moms, for instance, have to find men that can
Speaker 3: have conversations like this with their sons, because I because
Speaker 3: I think a mother's perspective is incredibly important to a
Speaker 3: son having, you know, at all stages of their lives,
Speaker 3: all stages. Now that said, going back to that point,
Speaker 3: I do think it's important for fathers to have more
Speaker 3: of a growth a lot of them, not all of them,
Speaker 3: but for a lot of them to have more of
Speaker 3: a growth mindset than they do. One of the things
Speaker 3: that when I came over to New Zealand and I
Speaker 3: was there a while back, and afterwards there'd be Q
Speaker 3: and A and I would hear constantly from lives and
Speaker 3: even some some some fathers, I'm saying, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: it's like this when when my son and my and
Speaker 3: my husband are talking, they're constantly at each other's throats
Speaker 3: like that. That is such a common dynamic and it
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be that way. This isn't biological, you know,
Speaker 3: to to sit there and to say that you know,
Speaker 3: oh well, it's just you know, there's something edible about it,
Speaker 3: or it's evolution tionary. Personally, I don't buy into that,
Speaker 3: because I think it's absolutely possible for fathers and sons
Speaker 3: to have far more integrated, supportive relationships than that. I
Speaker 3: think what it really requires is that. And I'm not
Speaker 3: putting the onus squarely on fathers, because I think some
Speaker 3: mothers could benefit from this too. But I think a
Speaker 3: lot of dads really do need to understand that who
Speaker 3: boys are today is different than who we were in
Speaker 3: previous generations. There's no question about it, and I can
Speaker 3: easily unpack that. In addition to that, boys needs have
Speaker 3: changed because of that, they have dramatically changed, and that's
Speaker 3: a whole other conversation. Again, I'm happy to unpack, and
Speaker 3: it takes time, but fathers need to understand who boys
Speaker 3: are today and what they need, and it is similar
Speaker 3: and different from what we needed in the past. And
Speaker 3: as such, it's very important for fathers to understand who
Speaker 3: boys are today as they approach them, because at the
Speaker 3: very least, if fathers can do some of the things
Speaker 3: we were talking about about, you know, meeting boys emotional
Speaker 3: reactions with no judgment and no ridicule, at the very least,
Speaker 3: just giving them the space to do it and acknowledging
Speaker 3: and saying, I see you're upset. I get it. God
Speaker 3: knows there been times I felt this way too, for
Speaker 3: things like this, I'm here if you need me. That doesn't,
Speaker 3: that doesn't, that doesn't require a lot, And and it
Speaker 3: also just letting sons know you know that that again,
Speaker 3: that door is open if and when you're ready to talk.
Speaker 3: What it all boils down to is that if fathers
Speaker 3: could learn that even if they don't want to really
Speaker 3: have these kinds of conversations, you know, with their wives
Speaker 3: or with other men, that's fine, that's on that's their
Speaker 3: that's their prerogative. But the but boys do need this.
Speaker 3: Boys are not boy There is a dearth of resiliency
Speaker 3: very much in boys today. And and you know this
Speaker 3: is across the board, from education, even in the workplace,
Speaker 3: their mental health, the ways that they're dealing with rejection,
Speaker 3: and they are horrible, horrible degrees of loneliness and alienation.
Speaker 3: These all speak to endure the resiliency, and so it's
Speaker 3: really important to understand that when you're approaching your son
Speaker 3: and how you deal with them. And I absolutely think
Speaker 3: that if fathers could just learn to meet signs more
Speaker 3: of where they are, understanding where they are, and meet
Speaker 3: them where they are and now don't make it about you,
Speaker 3: I think that would go a long way in building
Speaker 3: a lot more trust with Signs and they'd be more
Speaker 3: open to hearing the kind of messages that we want
Speaker 3: to we want them to hear.
Speaker 2: It's really hard, and it's an absolute can of words,
Speaker 2: but if you do go back to at leastence, but
Speaker 2: just that moment and think about the experiences that that
Speaker 2: father had and the way he was raised in the
Speaker 2: generation before him. I mean, cracky, But I think if
Speaker 2: you if you take it from where you said, which
Speaker 2: is this isn't about you, so you know, maybe you
Speaker 2: do need to go work on some stuff that from
Speaker 2: your own childhood or whatever, but then try and bring
Speaker 2: that positive role model into the now for your child,
Speaker 2: because you know, we don't know we're walking around. We
Speaker 2: don't know what this dad's childhood looked like and how
Speaker 2: he can He's like, I don't understand because no one
Speaker 2: helped me when I was in a pickle when I
Speaker 2: was sixteen.
Speaker 1: But I think it also comes back to what you
Speaker 1: were saying, Andrew, is that our children are growing up
Speaker 1: in a different environment than we did, or that any
Speaker 1: other generation ever has. And I wonder if we can
Speaker 1: unpack that for a moment, because of course, the one
Speaker 1: major difference is they're living in a digital world. They're
Speaker 1: living with the social media and the YouTube and things
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, is that playing a part in
Speaker 1: why these children are different today?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, we all
Speaker 3: know about social we all know about pure pressure, and
Speaker 3: you know, all of that. We all grew up with it.
Speaker 3: No one is can sidestep that. What's different today is
Speaker 3: that there is this ethos younger people about this need
Speaker 3: to always be connected. And one of the things there
Speaker 3: was a course I used to teach at my university
Speaker 3: and I called it I Think leading Lives that Matter.
Speaker 3: And one of the things I would always ask students
Speaker 3: is what is the thing that you're most afraid of?
Speaker 3: And regardless of gender identity, they always would say feeling
Speaker 3: like I'm feeling like I'm not connected to my friends,
Speaker 3: feeling like I'm all alone on that bubble. The thing
Speaker 3: that that motivates and and enervates them the most is
Speaker 3: the feeling of of being apart from the crowd and
Speaker 3: the you know, they want to be a part of
Speaker 3: never apart from the crowd. And so that means whether
Speaker 3: it's listening constantly listening to music or you know constantly
Speaker 3: you know, watching the right kinds of shows that that
Speaker 3: that the people that they respected mayor watching everything that
Speaker 3: they consume in pop culture is about feel feeling like
Speaker 3: they're going to be connected because they're going to go
Speaker 3: back on to social media and see people talking about it.
Speaker 3: So there there is a a in we can't even
Speaker 3: fathom the degree of peer pressure to be connected if
Speaker 3: we didn't grow up with it. It's just it's off
Speaker 3: the charts. That is what motivates them and as I said,
Speaker 3: enervates them. The other thing, too, is that a lot
Speaker 3: of the values that are being taught in schools today
Speaker 3: at a very young age are very much social emotional
Speaker 3: learning values, which personally I think are great. So a
Speaker 3: lot of kids are being taught and being expected at
Speaker 3: a young age to learn greater self awareness, to learn
Speaker 3: how to be a little bit more empathetic, to learn
Speaker 3: how to collaborate, to learn how to be better communicators. Now,
Speaker 3: all the things I just mentioned are kind of hallmarks
Speaker 3: of sel education and you need them now, not just
Speaker 3: in the classroom, but in the workplace and everything I
Speaker 3: just mentioned. Whether it's biological or through socialization. We know
Speaker 3: that a lot of girls in young in are better
Speaker 3: at developing these skills than a lot of boys and
Speaker 3: young men. So it doesn't matter really the why. The
Speaker 3: important thing is that we're still boys are being expected
Speaker 3: and they understand that they need that they need to
Speaker 3: have these skills, but a lot of them are still
Speaker 3: at a deficit with learning how to master them. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying all boys, I'm saying a lot of boys.
Speaker 3: And so that's another thing that most of us didn't
Speaker 3: grow up with. Most of us didn't grow up and
Speaker 3: you know, in schools with these expectations of that, you know,
Speaker 3: even if you don't really know how to practice empathy,
Speaker 3: you need to at least understand that that you know,
Speaker 3: we're putting that pressure on You're not not pressure in
Speaker 3: a bad way. The expectation that you need to understand
Speaker 3: this is how you need to behave. So there's a
Speaker 3: lot of values that that ultimately can be really good
Speaker 3: that that are being taught at younger and younger ages,
Speaker 3: and that's not something that we grew up with. And
Speaker 3: so there's this kind of, you know, for a lot
Speaker 3: of boys and young men, there's a kind of you know,
Speaker 3: their arms are being pulled in different directions. On the
Speaker 3: one hand, they're being told to be all these things
Speaker 3: at a very young age, and they're getting these messages
Speaker 3: that they should be this way because it's required in
Speaker 3: school settings, and thank god, it's required a more workplace
Speaker 3: settings too. But on the other hand, a lot of
Speaker 3: the messages they're getting on social media from influencers are
Speaker 3: pulling them in the other direction. Do not encourage a
Speaker 3: lot of this. And so the point is is that,
Speaker 3: you know, when we're talking about boys, it's really important
Speaker 3: to understand that they're getting yanked in two completely different
Speaker 3: directions and they don't know whether how to make heads
Speaker 3: or tails a lot of it. And so we absolutely
Speaker 3: are growing up, you know, in a very different era.
Speaker 3: And you know, one of the things that this is
Speaker 3: manifesting through are the spikes we're seeing in mental health
Speaker 3: problems across the board for everybody of these generations, right anxiety, depression,
Speaker 3: chronic stress, and then of course we know about the loneliness.
Speaker 3: So you know, these are things that it's not just
Speaker 3: a matter of that we're more aware of them now.
Speaker 3: You know, we grew up and we knew our friends
Speaker 3: and we knew ourselves, and there was not this this chronic,
Speaker 3: chronic you know, systemic degree of mental health issues that
Speaker 3: were so that everybody was struggling with.
Speaker 2: I think the term knowing yourself is the key one
Speaker 2: there for me is I totally see it when you
Speaker 2: described it that way. I can see how because it's
Speaker 2: really easy even as an adult I've had to recently
Speaker 2: stop listening to political podcasts, especially coming out of the US,
Speaker 2: because because I cannot. I'm just going, I'm just it's
Speaker 2: too much. And I think you can see because they're very,
Speaker 2: very clever at it influences, giving you these positive throwing
Speaker 2: out the positive messages, and then sucking you in with
Speaker 2: the negative. And I can only imagine what that's like
Speaker 2: as a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old kid. You know,
Speaker 2: I think the girls are exposed to it too, but
Speaker 2: I think the more negative thing is coming in for boys.
Speaker 3: It is it is the analogy that I use, the
Speaker 3: metaphor that I use is is, you know, we've done
Speaker 3: a great job of saying to girls, you can pick
Speaker 3: anything you want in the wardrobe, you can in any
Speaker 3: combination you want, and and and that is a great thing.
Speaker 3: That is a wonderful thing that we've said to them.
Speaker 3: You can wear anything on the rack that you want
Speaker 3: and and you're good to go. We we'll support you
Speaker 3: with that. We don't do that with boys. You know,
Speaker 3: we're still basically saying to them metaphorically speaking, although quite
Speaker 3: literally too, you need to wear black, you need to
Speaker 3: wear navy blue, you need to wear gray. You need
Speaker 3: to wear brown. You know, we're you know, and and
Speaker 3: and this is, by the way, is the type of
Speaker 3: clothing you should be wearing metaphorically and literally. That's what
Speaker 3: we're doing still with boys. And so, you know, we
Speaker 3: have these expectations for boys, but we're also still telling
Speaker 3: them there's a limited way that you should be thinking
Speaker 3: of yourself, you know, as as a boy and as
Speaker 3: an ascending man. And so they're getting, you know, all
Speaker 3: these conflicting things. And and one of the things that's
Speaker 3: that I think is that is so helpful for girls,
Speaker 3: that is so important is that they have what I
Speaker 3: call emotional safety nets. You know, they learn at a
Speaker 3: young age to develop these. It is the extremely rare
Speaker 3: group of boys that create this and maintain it. Because
Speaker 3: every time I go into schools and I'll talk to
Speaker 3: the boys and I did this in New Zealand, and
Speaker 3: I'll say to them, you know, when girls have problems,
Speaker 3: how do you what do you? Where do you think
Speaker 3: they go for support? And so many of the boys
Speaker 3: could say, oh, they you know, they they might go
Speaker 3: to their mom or they or they've got friends. Absolutely good,
Speaker 3: where do you guys go? Again? Crickets? Because so few boys.
Speaker 3: Most boys do not have this, and and and they
Speaker 3: and they don't know how to create it. They don't
Speaker 3: know how to maintain it, and they don't know how
Speaker 3: to repair it. And that's true of all of their relationships.
Speaker 3: Boys really need to be taught how to create relationships,
Speaker 3: regardless of the kind we're talking about, how to maintain them,
Speaker 3: and then how to repair them, which is still not
Speaker 3: something that we really really do a great job up
Speaker 3: with boys because we expect through as most as they'll
Speaker 3: pick it up boiler alert, they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably have presumed that a little bit along
Speaker 1: the way, Andrew, Look what in summary, what would you
Speaker 1: love to see come out of this whole adolescence Hoopler.
Speaker 3: What I would love to see is for us to
Speaker 3: be having conversations with our sons that feel safe to them,
Speaker 3: that feel supportive for them, and where we're creating these
Speaker 3: spaces where they feel that it's it's safe to do
Speaker 3: this and I can say what I want to say
Speaker 3: and know that there won't be retribution, because I really
Speaker 3: do believe that, you know, this really is where we
Speaker 3: really really need to kind of, you know, get our
Speaker 3: boys back, is by engaging with them and having these
Speaker 3: kinds of connections that a lot of us really don't
Speaker 3: have with them, at least they don't think so, and
Speaker 3: so it's it's really important, you know. I really hope
Speaker 3: that at the very least what will happen as a
Speaker 3: result of adolescence and all the conversations that are you know,
Speaker 3: that are happening for this, that we'll meet boys more
Speaker 3: where they are and not where we are, because we
Speaker 3: have so many expectations that we want boys to meet
Speaker 3: us where we because we think, you know, we are
Speaker 3: in the rut and we know what's best all the time,
Speaker 3: and that it's not possible that boys can know in
Speaker 3: any state in their lives what's best for them. Boys
Speaker 3: really need us to meet them where they are right
Speaker 3: now if we if we really want to pull them
Speaker 3: back from this and have the kind of conversations that
Speaker 3: they will have, and they will meet there if they
Speaker 3: feel that we value what they have to say and
Speaker 3: that they can trust us with what they're sharing with us.
Speaker 2: So it's it's all uss for sure, you know, because
Speaker 2: everybody else is trying to get a piece of them too.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much, Andrew. That has been so helpful.
Speaker 2: I hope everybody's gotten, you know, one or two tips
Speaker 2: out of that.
Speaker 1: At least I've got a few little things I need
Speaker 1: to think about, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: So I'm really I'm very grateful, thank you for having
Speaker 3: me on. I really have just loved the conversation so much.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I almost don't know where to start.
Speaker 1: There's so many things I want to say about that
Speaker 1: conversation with I enjoyed it a lot more than I
Speaker 1: thought I would, if I'm honest.
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 1: Because why did you think you wouldn't enjoy it?
Speaker 2: Because I was afraid that it was I'm stuck in
Speaker 2: that zero sum game of what has been good for
Speaker 2: women doesn't have to be bad for men. But actually,
Speaker 2: what he reminded me about was just meeting boys where
Speaker 2: they are. Take that whole thing out of it. It
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter, you know.
Speaker 1: So it comes back to the whole when he was
Speaker 1: talking about boys looking for their identity and not feeling
Speaker 1: safe to speak out and do all these things. Were
Speaker 1: you starting, Were you thinking to yourself, We'll hang on
Speaker 1: a minute. Women have been battling that for a long time,
Speaker 1: and then they've finally we've sort of got to a
Speaker 1: place you sort of suggesting that, yes, that we were
Speaker 1: talking about with the zero sum, right, that it's not
Speaker 1: one or the other. One gender doesn't have to have
Speaker 1: dominance or anything or doesn't have to you know, we
Speaker 1: can all get to better places, right, Okay, Yeah, No.
Speaker 1: Because he was so strong and all of that, I
Speaker 1: actually stopped thinking about women and girls all together for
Speaker 1: a moment there and just saying, actually, where does the
Speaker 1: attention need to go? Yes, And I'm not saying no
Speaker 1: attention on women. I'm saying right now, some of our
Speaker 1: boys are in trouble. Yes, And I just to go
Speaker 1: to explain to put that into context a little bit.
Speaker 1: You and I have spoken to a lot of teenagers
Speaker 1: about that show, and the young the teenage girls. There's
Speaker 1: not a lot of empathy there from them because they're
Speaker 1: sort of going, you know what, I've had to put
Speaker 1: up with this, this is and this, and that's probably
Speaker 1: driven us a little bit to get to that zero
Speaker 1: some sort of situation we're in. But you're right, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like put that aside. I thought it was
Speaker 1: really great. I know a lot of people don't want
Speaker 1: to have the conversation that our children are growing up
Speaker 1: in a different a growing up in a different environment
Speaker 1: or a different to how they've been in the past.
Speaker 1: It was interesting is Reclined It a podcast with John
Speaker 1: hit and he wrote a book called The Anxious Generation,
Speaker 1: How the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic
Speaker 1: of mental illness, and he says that our kids are
Speaker 1: the least flourishing generation we know. And that's pretty much
Speaker 1: what Andrew was saying there, that you know, this reliant
Speaker 1: the impact of social media and YouTube and living our
Speaker 1: lives online has created this loneliness and this lack of
Speaker 1: resilience because it's when we're kids, we wire our brains
Speaker 1: with all sorts of different situations and environments in order
Speaker 1: to become functioning adults, right, and we're not getting that.
Speaker 2: The irony of the world seeming bigger to them, but
Speaker 2: actually it's smaller, Yeah, because it's zeroing in on a screen, but.
Speaker 1: It's I spoke about the World Happiness Report. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you read that put out by University of Oxford.
Speaker 1: They said that nineteen percent of young adults across the
Speaker 1: world reported in twenty twenty three that they have no
Speaker 1: one they could count on for social support. Now you
Speaker 1: might think to yourself, nineteen percent, that's not too bad,
Speaker 1: but that is a thirty nine percent increase compared to
Speaker 1: two thousand and.
Speaker 2: Six and that's not that long ago. So that is that.
Speaker 1: Impact of social media and being on our phones. And
Speaker 1: we talked about this, you know, social connection as Andrew
Speaker 1: was saying that social connection is such a key component
Speaker 1: to happiness. And my daughter's made this comment. She said
Speaker 1: to me, she said, people go online because they're only
Speaker 1: and then they get lonelier. And it's not just boys,
Speaker 1: it's girls as well.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. That is a bit of a sad thing,
Speaker 2: isn't it. But it's true. And I spoke to a
Speaker 2: male educated before we did this today and he said
Speaker 2: in an all boys school, and he said, look, Louise,
Speaker 2: one of the biggest jobs we have is to make
Speaker 2: these young men feel safe and connected. And he'll do
Speaker 2: like maybe a hundred bro hugs a day, safe and
Speaker 2: cared about and cared about. Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually that's that's our basic job as parents
Speaker 1: is to let it make sure that our children know
Speaker 1: that they're loved and we care about them, and that
Speaker 1: they're safe. And you know, once again Andrew was talking
Speaker 1: about all those expectations that we put on our children
Speaker 1: as well, and there's like a different kind of expectations.
Speaker 1: There's lots of different expectations we put but it's just
Speaker 1: time to step back now. I found that really helpful.
Speaker 1: I mean, I sort of tend to think that I
Speaker 1: do a lot of the things that Andrew was mean
Speaker 1: to do, but there's always a couple of other things
Speaker 1: like I, oh, probably not very good at doing that.
Speaker 2: And even if you and I were doing everything perfectly
Speaker 2: in our home, which I think we both admit that
Speaker 2: we aren't all the time, Heck no, we're still our
Speaker 2: children still have to function in the wider world, right,
Speaker 2: so we still have to be aware of it. Even
Speaker 2: if we say, oh, no, I have pretty good conversation
Speaker 2: with my kids, and my kids will tell me you
Speaker 2: think you know that, sibling, but I can tell you
Speaker 2: a few things. So definitely there's always roun for improvement.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on our new Zealand Heeri podcast series,
Speaker 1: The Little Things. We hope you shared this podcast with
Speaker 1: the women in your life so we can all help
Speaker 1: our boys grow into respectful young.
Speaker 2: Men and share it with the men in your life.
Speaker 2: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts. And for more on this and other topics,
Speaker 2: heat to endzed Herald dot co dot
Speaker 1: Nz and we'll catch you next time on the Little
Speaker 1: Things