Speaker 1: Yoda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
Speaker 2: The Front Page, the NSID Heralds Daily News podcast. While
Speaker 2: the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
Speaker 2: look back at some of the biggest news stories and
Speaker 2: top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. On July twenty six,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, David Longing was sworn in as the
Speaker 2: thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand. His accession to
Speaker 2: the country's top job came after Robert Muldoon's infamous Schnapps
Speaker 2: election ended his nine years in power. Best remembered for
Speaker 2: enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, Longee also oversaw controversial
Speaker 2: economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus and saw his
Speaker 2: time on the ninth floor only last five years. For
Speaker 2: the fortieth.
Speaker 3: Anniversary of his reign, we spoke with Newstalks z'd been
Speaker 3: senior political correspondent Barry Soper, one of the few journalists
Speaker 3: who was there at the time and still working today.
Speaker 4: Barry, let's start with an ending.
Speaker 3: A large part of the myth of Muldoon is how
Speaker 3: it all ended with the Schnapps election.
Speaker 5: It doesn't give him much time to run up to
Speaker 5: an election. Prime Minister doesn't give my apprentish much time
Speaker 5: to run up to an election, does it.
Speaker 3: I understand you actually got a concession out of him
Speaker 3: before the polling booths had even opened, right.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 6: Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon,
Speaker 6: one of being off of space most of the time.
Speaker 6: And when it came to the final address in Auckland,
Speaker 6: I said to mulder And as he was making his
Speaker 6: way in, can I have an interview with you? And
Speaker 6: he said yep. I got up to his room. An
Speaker 6: hour after he had finished speaking was shown in and
Speaker 6: here was this little man slumped in a chair with
Speaker 6: a bottle of red wine lying on its side, looking
Speaker 6: dishevel and I gin reflected with a microphone in front
Speaker 6: of him and said, mister Muldoon, do you think you've
Speaker 6: won the election? And Muldourn shook his head from side
Speaker 6: to side, and I said to him Prime, and as
Speaker 6: this is radio, you've got to talk. Do you think
Speaker 6: you've won the election? He said? And I couldn't believe
Speaker 6: my ears. This is on the Thursday night before the pole,
Speaker 6: so he had conceded defeat essentially. On that night, the
Speaker 6: rest of the media had discarded his address because it
Speaker 6: was like many of the others he had given during
Speaker 6: the campaign, and went to the pub. And by the
Speaker 6: time I got to the pub very late, I told
Speaker 6: them that I had a scoop and that my n
Speaker 6: who conceded defeat to David LONGEI and they couldn't believe it.
Speaker 6: Muldourn called a news conference at eight o'clock the next morning,
Speaker 6: I think it was, so he soved up pretty quickly.
Speaker 6: He was on the airwaves with the interview that I
Speaker 6: had with him and denied all knowledge of it, essentially
Speaker 6: said that he was taken out of context, and of
Speaker 6: course he wasn't. The question was quite simple, Have you
Speaker 6: won the election?
Speaker 3: He said, nap, after nine years in power where he
Speaker 3: had never won the popular vote. Was the country just
Speaker 3: sick of Muldoon by then?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 6: I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourne. And I
Speaker 6: don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad it was.
Speaker 6: I mean, we lived what I would say in an
Speaker 6: ice box. Everything was frozen, Wages were frozen, prices were frozen,
Speaker 6: interest rates were frozen. You know, something had to give.
Speaker 6: You'll remember that Rob Muldourn. He stayed on an office
Speaker 6: for several days after the election, essentially refusing to vacate
Speaker 6: the Prime Minister's chair, while embassies around the world were
Speaker 6: being asked how much cash reserves did they have? And
Speaker 6: meanwhile you had David Longe who wanted to call in
Speaker 6: the IMF and other world bodies to essentially put New
Speaker 6: Zealand and receivership. He decided against that on advice, fortunately,
Speaker 6: and we survived, but survived through very difficult times in
Speaker 6: the new government.
Speaker 5: It doesn't give you much time to run up to
Speaker 5: an election from minister. Doesn't give my appanish much time
Speaker 5: to run up to an election, does it. There is
Speaker 5: no way mister Longey could have had enough members in
Speaker 5: the House to govern the country. This is really what
Speaker 5: I thought about, that he's a buffoon.
Speaker 3: July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change
Speaker 3: in the form of David Longie.
Speaker 4: What are some of your earlier memories of him?
Speaker 6: Well, I remember very early on when David Longe got
Speaker 6: into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit.
Speaker 6: He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore
Speaker 6: these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to
Speaker 6: a party that long he was at, and he was
Speaker 6: at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather
Speaker 6: forlorn and lonely, sitting in the background, and I went
Speaker 6: over and had a chat to him and realized that
Speaker 6: this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words,
Speaker 6: and little did I know that not too long later
Speaker 6: he would be the Prime Minister of Museum.
Speaker 3: Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared
Speaker 3: to take power.
Speaker 6: I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious
Speaker 6: the finances of the country were in eighty four. After
Speaker 6: the snap election, the country really was completely dire strait
Speaker 6: and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas came in,
Speaker 6: because you remember Rob Muldoon sat in the Prime Minister's
Speaker 6: office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that was the
Speaker 6: bigger argument at the time that the dollar needed to
Speaker 6: be devalued. It was too high. And eventually the dollar
Speaker 6: was devalued, but of course that opened up all sorts
Speaker 6: of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had gone from
Speaker 6: the cap put on them by Rob muldourn of nine
Speaker 6: for the first mortgage and eleven percent for the second,
Speaker 6: as high as twenty two percent, So people really that
Speaker 6: might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four, they were
Speaker 6: in dire strait after the Roger Douglas David Longey government
Speaker 6: came into power.
Speaker 4: What was it like.
Speaker 3: After those Muldoon years Barry which are generally noted in
Speaker 3: the history books as being a bit grim politically and socially.
Speaker 3: Did LONGI inherit a mess to clean.
Speaker 6: Up of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well,
Speaker 6: certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were
Speaker 6: all sorts of things going on as well because our
Speaker 6: foreign policy. The Labor Party had gone into that election,
Speaker 6: the snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz,
Speaker 6: the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, happened to be
Speaker 6: in town in the following week and he met with
Speaker 6: David longe and I think it was made known to
Speaker 6: him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to be
Speaker 6: anti nuclear. So the American visits of their warships into
Speaker 6: our ports were banned, along with a number of other things,
Speaker 6: and even propulsion was banned. Even though David longe was
Speaker 6: a bit softer on that, and the suggestion is that
Speaker 6: when he had that chat with George Schultz, he said,
Speaker 6: give me six months and we can sort through the
Speaker 6: idea that propelled ships would not be allowed in port.
Speaker 6: But then that burned up with the likes of Margaret
Speaker 6: Wilson became Speaker but was the president of the party
Speaker 6: at the time. They weren't prepared to live with that.
Speaker 6: So essentially it was not just a financial issue that
Speaker 6: the new Labor government had to clean up. It was
Speaker 6: also the international foreign policy issue that David Longey had
Speaker 6: to go on the front put off.
Speaker 3: Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of
Speaker 3: that nuclear free New Zealand part hey, in particular that
Speaker 3: Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core
Speaker 3: part of his legacy.
Speaker 6: Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly,
Speaker 6: David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing.
Speaker 6: But it was not surprising to some of us that
Speaker 6: knew that David Longey had such a quick wit. I mean,
Speaker 6: here was debating Jerry Forwell and won the debate not surprisingly.
Speaker 6: But when one of the young Oxford University students got
Speaker 6: up to challenge Longie.
Speaker 2: What I should like to know, sir, is why you
Speaker 2: don't one of the answers alliance for whether you are
Speaker 2: snuggling up to the bomb or living in the peaceful
Speaker 2: shadow of the bomb, New.
Speaker 1: Zealand benefits, sir.
Speaker 5: And that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to give it to you if you
Speaker 1: hold your breath just for a moment.
Speaker 7: They did smell the uranium moment as you leave the word, and.
Speaker 6: It was a moment I think each to New Zealand's
Speaker 6: history that David Longie was not just a good orator,
Speaker 6: but a superb one. And I do remember one incident
Speaker 6: of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling
Speaker 6: out to David Longe and his way into a caucus
Speaker 6: meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked
Speaker 6: at them and said, wombat and walked into the caucus.
Speaker 3: The other key bit of legislation would be the economic
Speaker 3: reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can
Speaker 3: you briefly explain what that actually was and why it
Speaker 3: was so controversial?
Speaker 6: Well, it was controversial because, like I said, earlier. You know,
Speaker 6: we saw interst rate shooting through the roof. We saw
Speaker 6: New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before.
Speaker 6: And the country was generally in a pretty poor state
Speaker 6: in terms of the fact that we had been living
Speaker 6: in an ice box and the ice had to thaw.
Speaker 6: So those early years of the Longey government were really tough,
Speaker 6: although people didn't know what they had in store for them.
Speaker 6: They got back in eighty seven and that's when everything started.
Speaker 6: That's when they started the asset sales program that was
Speaker 6: basically to shore up what were the books that had failed,
Speaker 6: and they sold off a number of state assets. And
Speaker 6: in that eighty seven period, of course, we had the
Speaker 6: falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas,
Speaker 6: ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first
Speaker 6: of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the
Speaker 6: Prime minister.
Speaker 3: They Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague
Speaker 3: Audrey Young.
Speaker 4: She did it with Longe in two thousand and.
Speaker 1: Four, just before his death.
Speaker 3: Asked about taking heat from the left and the right
Speaker 3: of the political spectrum, longi responded with, this is the
Speaker 3: difficulty about talking about it without sounding big headed. But
Speaker 3: you cannot speak of New Zealand now without my involvement
Speaker 3: in what it has become. My judgment of that is
Speaker 3: that it is change for the better, and my instinct
Speaker 3: tells me that if it hadn't been for our administration,
Speaker 3: there would have been calamity after calamity.
Speaker 6: What's your response to that, Well, I think there were
Speaker 6: two aspects to that comment. But certainly you can't talk
Speaker 6: about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and that
Speaker 6: comes down and it's still enduring of course as the
Speaker 6: anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think is
Speaker 6: probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas made
Speaker 6: for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundations star
Speaker 6: Owes have never been shifted by a success of government,
Speaker 6: and that more than forty years on, and I think
Speaker 6: that's the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear
Speaker 6: thing probably engages more New Zealanders.
Speaker 3: Finally, Barry, do you think David Longey was a good
Speaker 3: Prime minister.
Speaker 6: I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas
Speaker 6: tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was
Speaker 6: essential that the issues of the day were tackled in
Speaker 6: the way they were. As a good prime minister, I
Speaker 6: think David long was not a great leader of his
Speaker 6: cabinet because there were faction throughout his leadership, ending with
Speaker 6: of course him standing down. And even then Longe had
Speaker 6: a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting on
Speaker 6: the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing David
Speaker 6: Longey's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said, Jeffrey,
Speaker 6: have changed my mind. And of course that out everybody
Speaker 6: rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor.
Speaker 6: But as a prime minister and as a leader of
Speaker 6: his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was
Speaker 6: certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen in my
Speaker 6: time there.
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, Barry.
Speaker 3: To further discuss David Longie and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy.
Speaker 3: We're joined now by Victoria University of Wellington politics professor
Speaker 3: Lara Grieves and started by putting that Longy quote to
Speaker 3: her as well. I should note Lara's pet roosters make
Speaker 3: a few appearances.
Speaker 1: I mean twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote,
Speaker 1: and if we were to reassess that and kind of
Speaker 1: look at the way that different prime ministers and finance
Speaker 1: ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied
Speaker 1: his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and
Speaker 1: all of them who came after him, they've kind of
Speaker 1: said the same sort of thing about their legacies, and
Speaker 1: that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis,
Speaker 1: and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis.
Speaker 7: I think it's just kind of a way that politicians
Speaker 7: position their legacy because we never can really know what
Speaker 7: would have happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election,
Speaker 7: would have happened to say Bill English was Prime minister
Speaker 7: during COVID.
Speaker 1: We can't know those sorts of things. So I think
Speaker 1: in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lot of people will
Speaker 1: be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed.
Speaker 3: We spoke to Newstalks at bees Barry so but he
Speaker 3: didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his
Speaker 3: party or his cabinet. Due to some factions would you
Speaker 3: agree with that.
Speaker 1: He's a really interesting figure, right, because he was clearly charismatic,
Speaker 1: He had that presidential type quality. Most Kei we seem
Speaker 1: to have a story about, like seeing him bumping into
Speaker 1: him and being good one on one. Most people have
Speaker 1: seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates and
Speaker 1: in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to politics, it's not just the razzle dazzle,
Speaker 1: the baby cacussing. There's also a component of being in government,
Speaker 1: being the prime minister, as in the primary minister, who
Speaker 1: has to run cabinet, who has to keep a cabinet
Speaker 1: and a party together. And I think there are real
Speaker 1: criticisms of his leadership. From the left, we see criticisms
Speaker 1: that he did let Roger Douglas kind of go down
Speaker 1: his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie didn't have those
Speaker 1: people management skills. And from the right, you know, his
Speaker 1: potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy direction himself. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess that's a left wing criticism too, But there's
Speaker 1: definitely ways that you can critique him and critique his record.
Speaker 3: What do you think David Longi's legacy is is it
Speaker 3: just the nuclear free energy and rogenomics.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics,
Speaker 1: we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation
Speaker 1: of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up
Speaker 1: is the fourth Flabor government, and rogenomics scenario, liberalism and
Speaker 1: David longee And we always play the uranium on your
Speaker 1: brief that clip. We always play that. That's what we do,
Speaker 1: That's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's the first
Speaker 1: year class. But the other thing that I think is
Speaker 1: often overlooked as well as Longe's role in MMP, which
Speaker 1: was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising a referendum,
Speaker 1: but part of that government. I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: things that we can see today and their legacy is
Speaker 1: that we do have the emmunp system. And I've been
Speaker 1: studying electoral reform around the world and looking at different
Speaker 1: countries and it's really hard to get across the line.
Speaker 1: So that's been I think a bit of an incidental
Speaker 1: legacy of that government. One of the things I've to
Speaker 1: say is someone who's written a bit on policy history
Speaker 1: as well, is they did get some sort of landmark
Speaker 1: policy work underway the Royal Commission on Social Policy, which
Speaker 1: is this giant breck of a thing, but to me
Speaker 1: it represents one of the most well researched, most considered,
Speaker 1: most consulted on policy reports ever in our history. So
Speaker 1: there are pieces of work like that that that government
Speaker 1: did as well, that are potentially overlooked but actually hold
Speaker 1: up well to history when you read them.
Speaker 8: Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember
Speaker 8: taking a report to him one day, four pages and
Speaker 8: he gets a report and he go, oh, that looks
Speaker 8: all right, Rotes, And I thought you have read that.
Speaker 8: You can't have so I thought, I'll ask you a question,
Speaker 8: but well, you know, I put it nicely. Damn well,
Speaker 8: knew a bit of I.
Speaker 3: Do you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk
Speaker 3: and cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a
Speaker 3: finance minister every gain, perhaps.
Speaker 1: Not so much because of MNP and because like what
Speaker 1: used to happen is labor and National had to be
Speaker 1: these broad churches, so they had to bring in varied
Speaker 1: people on left and very people on the right to
Speaker 1: some extent, whereas now we have minor parties. So if
Speaker 1: someone does have a different economic view. You know, there's
Speaker 1: many options on the right. If someone has a different
Speaker 1: economic view on the left, there's many options. They can
Speaker 1: go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimaldi,
Speaker 1: depending on who they are. You know that there's other
Speaker 1: options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely
Speaker 1: to see that again, partially because of our electoral system
Speaker 1: now that you have these parties are less broad tense.
Speaker 1: We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our
Speaker 1: political parties tend to become a bit more I guess whipped,
Speaker 1: or a bit more kind of in behind the leader
Speaker 1: in a way, and you have a lot less kind
Speaker 1: of independence and a lot less sort of backbenches, and
Speaker 1: people will think cabinet because of you know, changes around
Speaker 1: MP speaking out against their leader. So I would say
Speaker 1: that we're probably not going to get that kind of
Speaker 1: politics again unless there is some kind of other substantive
Speaker 1: change there.
Speaker 3: Do you think David Longi's enduring popular is warranted.
Speaker 1: I think so. I think that, you know, so much
Speaker 1: of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is
Speaker 1: called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that
Speaker 1: cultive leadership, cultured personality, type idea and in this case,
Speaker 1: David Long is one of the big ones who was
Speaker 1: a real character. He had that good kind of ability
Speaker 1: that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You
Speaker 1: had to take the person out of yourself a bit.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: He had that in space, You had that charisma being
Speaker 1: able to connect to people one on one, and you
Speaker 1: think that that kind of character, whether you like the
Speaker 1: substantive policies that they put in place or didn't, I
Speaker 1: think that celebrity part of politics, he really does have
Speaker 1: that down and that long term likability, that long term
Speaker 1: liked political figure.
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, Lara.
Speaker 3: That said, for this episode of The Front Page. You
Speaker 3: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 3: at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 3: produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm
Speaker 3: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
Speaker 3: for another look behind the headlines.