1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Yoda. 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: The Front Page, the NSID Heralds Daily News podcast. While 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 2: the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: look back at some of the biggest news stories and 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 2: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. On July twenty six, 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, David Longing was sworn in as the 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 2: thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand. His accession to 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: the country's top job came after Robert Muldoon's infamous Schnapps 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: election ended his nine years in power. Best remembered for 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, Longee also oversaw controversial 13 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus and saw his 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: time on the ninth floor only last five years. For 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: the fortieth. 16 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 3: Anniversary of his reign, we spoke with Newstalks z'd been 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: senior political correspondent Barry Soper, one of the few journalists 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: who was there at the time and still working today. 19 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 4: Barry, let's start with an ending. 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 3: A large part of the myth of Muldoon is how 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: it all ended with the Schnapps election. 22 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 5: It doesn't give him much time to run up to 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 5: an election. Prime Minister doesn't give my apprentish much time 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 5: to run up to an election, does it. 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: I understand you actually got a concession out of him 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 3: before the polling booths had even opened, right. 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 5: Yes. 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 6: Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon, 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 6: one of being off of space most of the time. 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 6: And when it came to the final address in Auckland, 31 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 6: I said to mulder And as he was making his 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 6: way in, can I have an interview with you? And 33 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 6: he said yep. I got up to his room. An 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 6: hour after he had finished speaking was shown in and 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 6: here was this little man slumped in a chair with 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 6: a bottle of red wine lying on its side, looking 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 6: dishevel and I gin reflected with a microphone in front 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 6: of him and said, mister Muldoon, do you think you've 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 6: won the election? And Muldourn shook his head from side 40 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 6: to side, and I said to him Prime, and as 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 6: this is radio, you've got to talk. Do you think 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 6: you've won the election? He said? And I couldn't believe 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 6: my ears. This is on the Thursday night before the pole, 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 6: so he had conceded defeat essentially. On that night, the 45 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 6: rest of the media had discarded his address because it 46 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 6: was like many of the others he had given during 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 6: the campaign, and went to the pub. And by the 48 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 6: time I got to the pub very late, I told 49 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 6: them that I had a scoop and that my n 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 6: who conceded defeat to David LONGEI and they couldn't believe it. 51 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 6: Muldourn called a news conference at eight o'clock the next morning, 52 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 6: I think it was, so he soved up pretty quickly. 53 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 6: He was on the airwaves with the interview that I 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 6: had with him and denied all knowledge of it, essentially 55 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 6: said that he was taken out of context, and of 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 6: course he wasn't. The question was quite simple, Have you 57 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 6: won the election? 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: He said, nap, after nine years in power where he 59 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: had never won the popular vote. Was the country just 60 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 3: sick of Muldoon by then? 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 5: Oh? 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 6: I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourne. And I 63 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 6: don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad it was. 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 6: I mean, we lived what I would say in an 65 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 6: ice box. Everything was frozen, Wages were frozen, prices were frozen, 66 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 6: interest rates were frozen. You know, something had to give. 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 6: You'll remember that Rob Muldourn. He stayed on an office 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 6: for several days after the election, essentially refusing to vacate 69 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 6: the Prime Minister's chair, while embassies around the world were 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 6: being asked how much cash reserves did they have? And 71 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 6: meanwhile you had David Longe who wanted to call in 72 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 6: the IMF and other world bodies to essentially put New 73 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 6: Zealand and receivership. He decided against that on advice, fortunately, 74 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 6: and we survived, but survived through very difficult times in 75 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 6: the new government. 76 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 5: It doesn't give you much time to run up to 77 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 5: an election from minister. Doesn't give my appanish much time 78 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 5: to run up to an election, does it. There is 79 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 5: no way mister Longey could have had enough members in 80 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 5: the House to govern the country. This is really what 81 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 5: I thought about, that he's a buffoon. 82 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change 83 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 3: in the form of David Longie. 84 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: What are some of your earlier memories of him? 85 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 6: Well, I remember very early on when David Longe got 86 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 6: into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit. 87 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 6: He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore 88 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 6: these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to 89 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 6: a party that long he was at, and he was 90 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 6: at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather 91 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 6: forlorn and lonely, sitting in the background, and I went 92 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 6: over and had a chat to him and realized that 93 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 6: this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words, 94 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 6: and little did I know that not too long later 95 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 6: he would be the Prime Minister of Museum. 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared 97 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 3: to take power. 98 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 6: I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious 99 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 6: the finances of the country were in eighty four. After 100 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 6: the snap election, the country really was completely dire strait 101 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 6: and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas came in, 102 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 6: because you remember Rob Muldoon sat in the Prime Minister's 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 6: office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that was the 104 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 6: bigger argument at the time that the dollar needed to 105 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 6: be devalued. It was too high. And eventually the dollar 106 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 6: was devalued, but of course that opened up all sorts 107 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 6: of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had gone from 108 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 6: the cap put on them by Rob muldourn of nine 109 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 6: for the first mortgage and eleven percent for the second, 110 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 6: as high as twenty two percent, So people really that 111 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 6: might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four, they were 112 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 6: in dire strait after the Roger Douglas David Longey government 113 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 6: came into power. 114 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 4: What was it like. 115 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 3: After those Muldoon years Barry which are generally noted in 116 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: the history books as being a bit grim politically and socially. 117 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: Did LONGI inherit a mess to clean. 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 6: Up of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well, 119 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 6: certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were 120 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 6: all sorts of things going on as well because our 121 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 6: foreign policy. The Labor Party had gone into that election, 122 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 6: the snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz, 123 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 6: the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, happened to be 124 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 6: in town in the following week and he met with 125 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 6: David longe and I think it was made known to 126 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 6: him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to be 127 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 6: anti nuclear. So the American visits of their warships into 128 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 6: our ports were banned, along with a number of other things, 129 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 6: and even propulsion was banned. Even though David longe was 130 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 6: a bit softer on that, and the suggestion is that 131 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 6: when he had that chat with George Schultz, he said, 132 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 6: give me six months and we can sort through the 133 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 6: idea that propelled ships would not be allowed in port. 134 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 6: But then that burned up with the likes of Margaret 135 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 6: Wilson became Speaker but was the president of the party 136 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 6: at the time. They weren't prepared to live with that. 137 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 6: So essentially it was not just a financial issue that 138 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 6: the new Labor government had to clean up. It was 139 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 6: also the international foreign policy issue that David Longey had 140 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 6: to go on the front put off. 141 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of 142 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: that nuclear free New Zealand part hey, in particular that 143 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core 144 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: part of his legacy. 145 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 6: Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly, 146 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 6: David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing. 147 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 6: But it was not surprising to some of us that 148 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 6: knew that David Longey had such a quick wit. I mean, 149 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 6: here was debating Jerry Forwell and won the debate not surprisingly. 150 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 6: But when one of the young Oxford University students got 151 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 6: up to challenge Longie. 152 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: What I should like to know, sir, is why you 153 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: don't one of the answers alliance for whether you are 154 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: snuggling up to the bomb or living in the peaceful 155 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 2: shadow of the bomb, New. 156 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: Zealand benefits, sir. 157 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 5: And that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir. 158 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: And I'm going to give it to you if you 159 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: hold your breath just for a moment. 160 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 7: They did smell the uranium moment as you leave the word, and. 161 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 6: It was a moment I think each to New Zealand's 162 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 6: history that David Longie was not just a good orator, 163 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 6: but a superb one. And I do remember one incident 164 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 6: of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling 165 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 6: out to David Longe and his way into a caucus 166 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 6: meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked 167 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 6: at them and said, wombat and walked into the caucus. 168 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 3: The other key bit of legislation would be the economic 169 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can 170 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: you briefly explain what that actually was and why it 171 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: was so controversial? 172 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 6: Well, it was controversial because, like I said, earlier. You know, 173 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 6: we saw interst rate shooting through the roof. We saw 174 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 6: New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before. 175 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 6: And the country was generally in a pretty poor state 176 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 6: in terms of the fact that we had been living 177 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 6: in an ice box and the ice had to thaw. 178 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 6: So those early years of the Longey government were really tough, 179 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 6: although people didn't know what they had in store for them. 180 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 6: They got back in eighty seven and that's when everything started. 181 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 6: That's when they started the asset sales program that was 182 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 6: basically to shore up what were the books that had failed, 183 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 6: and they sold off a number of state assets. And 184 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 6: in that eighty seven period, of course, we had the 185 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 6: falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas, 186 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 6: ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first 187 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 6: of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the 188 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 6: Prime minister. 189 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: They Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague 190 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 3: Audrey Young. 191 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 4: She did it with Longe in two thousand and. 192 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: Four, just before his death. 193 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 3: Asked about taking heat from the left and the right 194 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: of the political spectrum, longi responded with, this is the 195 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: difficulty about talking about it without sounding big headed. But 196 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 3: you cannot speak of New Zealand now without my involvement 197 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: in what it has become. My judgment of that is 198 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 3: that it is change for the better, and my instinct 199 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 3: tells me that if it hadn't been for our administration, 200 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: there would have been calamity after calamity. 201 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 6: What's your response to that, Well, I think there were 202 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 6: two aspects to that comment. But certainly you can't talk 203 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 6: about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and that 204 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 6: comes down and it's still enduring of course as the 205 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 6: anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think is 206 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 6: probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas made 207 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 6: for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundations star 208 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 6: Owes have never been shifted by a success of government, 209 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 6: and that more than forty years on, and I think 210 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 6: that's the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear 211 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 6: thing probably engages more New Zealanders. 212 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: Finally, Barry, do you think David Longey was a good 213 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: Prime minister. 214 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 6: I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas 215 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 6: tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was 216 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 6: essential that the issues of the day were tackled in 217 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 6: the way they were. As a good prime minister, I 218 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 6: think David long was not a great leader of his 219 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 6: cabinet because there were faction throughout his leadership, ending with 220 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 6: of course him standing down. And even then Longe had 221 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 6: a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting on 222 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 6: the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing David 223 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 6: Longey's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said, Jeffrey, 224 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 6: have changed my mind. And of course that out everybody 225 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 6: rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor. 226 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 6: But as a prime minister and as a leader of 227 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 6: his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was 228 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 6: certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen in my 229 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 6: time there. 230 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, Barry. 231 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: To further discuss David Longie and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy. 232 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: We're joined now by Victoria University of Wellington politics professor 233 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 3: Lara Grieves and started by putting that Longy quote to 234 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 3: her as well. I should note Lara's pet roosters make 235 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: a few appearances. 236 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: I mean twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote, 237 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: and if we were to reassess that and kind of 238 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: look at the way that different prime ministers and finance 239 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied 240 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and 241 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: all of them who came after him, they've kind of 242 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: said the same sort of thing about their legacies, and 243 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis, 244 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis. 245 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 7: I think it's just kind of a way that politicians 246 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 7: position their legacy because we never can really know what 247 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 7: would have happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election, 248 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 7: would have happened to say Bill English was Prime minister 249 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 7: during COVID. 250 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: We can't know those sorts of things. So I think 251 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us. 252 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lot of people will 253 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed. 254 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: We spoke to Newstalks at bees Barry so but he 255 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his 256 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 3: party or his cabinet. Due to some factions would you 257 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 3: agree with that. 258 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: He's a really interesting figure, right, because he was clearly charismatic, 259 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: He had that presidential type quality. Most Kei we seem 260 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: to have a story about, like seeing him bumping into 261 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: him and being good one on one. Most people have 262 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates and 263 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure. But 264 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: when it comes to politics, it's not just the razzle dazzle, 265 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: the baby cacussing. There's also a component of being in government, 266 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: being the prime minister, as in the primary minister, who 267 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: has to run cabinet, who has to keep a cabinet 268 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: and a party together. And I think there are real 269 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: criticisms of his leadership. From the left, we see criticisms 270 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: that he did let Roger Douglas kind of go down 271 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie didn't have those 272 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: people management skills. And from the right, you know, his 273 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy direction himself. I mean, 274 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: I guess that's a left wing criticism too, But there's 275 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: definitely ways that you can critique him and critique his record. 276 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: What do you think David Longi's legacy is is it 277 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: just the nuclear free energy and rogenomics. 278 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics, 279 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation 280 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up 281 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: is the fourth Flabor government, and rogenomics scenario, liberalism and 282 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: David longee And we always play the uranium on your 283 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: brief that clip. We always play that. That's what we do, 284 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: That's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's the first 285 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: year class. But the other thing that I think is 286 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: often overlooked as well as Longe's role in MMP, which 287 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising a referendum, 288 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: but part of that government. I mean, one of the 289 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: things that we can see today and their legacy is 290 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: that we do have the emmunp system. And I've been 291 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: studying electoral reform around the world and looking at different 292 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: countries and it's really hard to get across the line. 293 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,239 Speaker 1: So that's been I think a bit of an incidental 294 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: legacy of that government. One of the things I've to 295 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: say is someone who's written a bit on policy history 296 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: as well, is they did get some sort of landmark 297 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: policy work underway the Royal Commission on Social Policy, which 298 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: is this giant breck of a thing, but to me 299 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: it represents one of the most well researched, most considered, 300 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: most consulted on policy reports ever in our history. So 301 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: there are pieces of work like that that that government 302 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: did as well, that are potentially overlooked but actually hold 303 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: up well to history when you read them. 304 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 8: Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember 305 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 8: taking a report to him one day, four pages and 306 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 8: he gets a report and he go, oh, that looks 307 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 8: all right, Rotes, And I thought you have read that. 308 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 8: You can't have so I thought, I'll ask you a question, 309 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 8: but well, you know, I put it nicely. Damn well, 310 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 8: knew a bit of I. 311 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: Do you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk 312 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 3: and cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a 313 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 3: finance minister every gain, perhaps. 314 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: Not so much because of MNP and because like what 315 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: used to happen is labor and National had to be 316 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: these broad churches, so they had to bring in varied 317 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: people on left and very people on the right to 318 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: some extent, whereas now we have minor parties. So if 319 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: someone does have a different economic view. You know, there's 320 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: many options on the right. If someone has a different 321 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: economic view on the left, there's many options. They can 322 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimaldi, 323 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: depending on who they are. You know that there's other 324 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely 325 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: to see that again, partially because of our electoral system 326 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: now that you have these parties are less broad tense. 327 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our 328 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: political parties tend to become a bit more I guess whipped, 329 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: or a bit more kind of in behind the leader 330 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: in a way, and you have a lot less kind 331 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: of independence and a lot less sort of backbenches, and 332 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: people will think cabinet because of you know, changes around 333 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: MP speaking out against their leader. So I would say 334 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: that we're probably not going to get that kind of 335 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: politics again unless there is some kind of other substantive 336 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: change there. 337 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 3: Do you think David Longi's enduring popular is warranted. 338 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: I think so. I think that, you know, so much 339 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is 340 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that 341 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: cultive leadership, cultured personality, type idea and in this case, 342 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: David Long is one of the big ones who was 343 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: a real character. He had that good kind of ability 344 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You 345 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: had to take the person out of yourself a bit. 346 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 6: You know. 347 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: He had that in space, You had that charisma being 348 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: able to connect to people one on one, and you 349 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: think that that kind of character, whether you like the 350 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: substantive policies that they put in place or didn't, I 351 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: think that celebrity part of politics, he really does have 352 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: that down and that long term likability, that long term 353 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: liked political figure. 354 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, Lara. 355 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 3: That said, for this episode of The Front Page. You 356 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 357 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 358 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm 359 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 3: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or 360 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday 361 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 3: for another look behind the headlines.