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Speaker 1: Heather duper Cela.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: Paul Goldsmith is the Justice Minister and Broadcasting Minister.

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Speaker 2: Paul, Hello, Hi, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm very well? Thank you. Now is it true that

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Speaker 1: your members are already hitting you with emails upset you're

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Speaker 1: not supporting the Treaty Principal's bill.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got a lot of members and we've got

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Speaker 2: a lot of different opinions. There are some sending emails

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Speaker 2: like that, there are some saying, you know, move faster

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Speaker 2: to kill it off. The I mean there's a wide

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Speaker 2: variety of views.

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Speaker 1: And how does it split so in support versus not

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Speaker 1: in support.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I haven't counted, say.

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Speaker 1: Probably more in support.

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Speaker 2: Well it's a bot church party. I mean, we've got

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Speaker 2: a wide variety of views. But yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 2: think people I'm clearly very supportive of the National Party approach,

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Speaker 2: which is to say, well, this bill in particular crude

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Speaker 2: way to handle a delicate topic. But there are lots

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Speaker 2: of other things we're doing in this space, you know,

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Speaker 2: absolutely asserting well the importance of trying to you know,

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Speaker 2: honor treaty settlements, work our way through that process while

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Speaker 2: never losing sight of the normal expectations of people living

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Speaker 2: in the modern democracy.

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Speaker 1: Did you get emails? Did you personally get emails?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got lots of emails.

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Speaker 1: How many did you get?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I haven't counted.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to happen?

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Speaker 2: But I get lots of you.

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Speaker 1: You can look again on your phone.

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Speaker 2: I don't sit at the end of the day and say, well,

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Speaker 2: I've got ninety three emails on the stocky, But I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, like, okay, so if something quite big is going on,

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Speaker 1: if I was inundated with emails and suddenly my box

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Speaker 1: went from having two hundred in a normal day to

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Speaker 1: like a thousand, I would see that there was quite

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Speaker 1: a swelling of the box. Is that what's going on

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Speaker 1: with you?

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Speaker 2: Well? No, I honestly couldn't tell you. I mean if

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Speaker 2: I literally did that, I would do nothing else all day.

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Speaker 2: I mean that that's what I have an office to

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Speaker 2: work my way through. But yeah, Look, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of interest in this topic. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm asking you about this is because that

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Speaker 1: email that you sent out on Thursday explaining to people

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Speaker 1: look like explaining is losing it. Like it looks like

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Speaker 1: you guys are under massive pressure from your members.

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Speaker 2: No, look, I mean that's a that's a a trite,

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Speaker 2: a journalistic phrase. Explaining is losing. Actually, what people wanted

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Speaker 2: to hear was what what's our what's our thinking on

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Speaker 2: this topic? And I explained that and outlined it and

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Speaker 2: explained why we were doing what we're doing, and what,

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Speaker 2: you know, what the other things were doing in the space.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's a perfectly logical way of explaining

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Speaker 2: a policy position on a topic of the day.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And so when you sent out that email that,

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Speaker 1: did people go oh, that makes perfect sense or did

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Speaker 1: you actually just get help With a flurry of emails

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Speaker 1: thereafter people not happy with that explanation.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, you get a variety of opinions. Yes, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people say, oh, well that's good.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, they come down, I know that all that,

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Speaker 1: they're right on the money, that little variety. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: that old variety of opinions thing is always what you're

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Speaker 1: trying to say is here, we've got a lot of

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Speaker 1: bad emails. Actually, there were a few in support, not

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Speaker 1: that any.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I wouldn't say that at all.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, you.

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Speaker 1: Guys are in trouble Paul, you know that though you

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Speaker 1: are in trouble on this bill because it was a

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Speaker 1: bad idea to let it happen and then kill it

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Speaker 1: off like we've still got six months to go in

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Speaker 1: the Select Committee.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't need to explain to you

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Speaker 2: the mechanics of MMP. That is the system that we're

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Speaker 2: voted for as a country. And so we've got six

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Speaker 2: parties in Parliament and each six of them have a

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Speaker 2: slightly different view on a whole range of issues.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you keep on blaming MP if you want to,

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Speaker 1: but nobody buys this anymore because it looks like poor leadership.

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Speaker 2: Well but there's nothing. I mean, it's a politics in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand is a numbers game. You have to get

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Speaker 2: to sixty one to pass votes and to form a government.

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Speaker 2: To get to sixty one to form a government, you

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Speaker 2: have to make everything that compromise, he says, though, Well,

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Speaker 2: we certainly didn't, and they wanted to have a referendum.

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Speaker 2: We didn't agree to that. We read to introduce the bill.

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Speaker 2: Have a first reason, I'll tell you what the concerns

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Speaker 2: and we take it from there.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you could have agreed to what

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Speaker 1: the act Party said, and then you could let the

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Speaker 1: thing run its course. But it's the killing in the

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Speaker 1: middle that's the problem for the NATS, because you're not

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Speaker 1: satisfying anybody, right. People who want to see this bill

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Speaker 1: taken to the end point are going to be angry.

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Speaker 1: People who don't want to see this bill at all

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Speaker 1: are going to be angry. So who are you actually pleasing?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a challenging topic, but I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: the issue is that people saw over the past six

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Speaker 2: years under cinder Dern and her government, that there were

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Speaker 2: a number of issues that people were concerned about in

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Speaker 2: the space, particularly around local government, voting rights and the

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Speaker 2: MARI Health Authority. And so I think it's absolutely a

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Speaker 2: topic that people are grappling with, and it's not a

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Speaker 2: simple one, and that's a basic point I was making now.

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Speaker 2: And of course all the coverage focuses on the more

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Speaker 2: I suppose dramatic comments, and that is a challenge that

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Speaker 2: you face in all issues like this, the moderate, kind

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Speaker 2: of careful considered viewpoint which says me, up, yes, we've

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Speaker 2: got an issue here. Absolutely, it's important to reinforce equality

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Speaker 2: and democracy, but also the unique elements of new Zealand

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Speaker 2: and the treaty relationship. We've got to work our way

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Speaker 2: through this issue by issue carefully. Yes, that doesn't get

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Speaker 2: the same deal of through in the press, but you

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Speaker 2: know it's essential and that's what you've got to do

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Speaker 2: when you're dealing with difficult topics.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, are you have you heard it all from Simon?

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Speaker 1: What's over at COP twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: Well, I haven't talked to him personally, but he's over

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Speaker 2: there and he's doing good work working its way through

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Speaker 2: the issues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Because one of the big things they're deciding at

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Speaker 1: COP twenty nine is how much rich countries like ours

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Speaker 1: pay poor countries to cut emissions. How much are we

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Speaker 1: prepared to pay?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I don't have an exact figure in front

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Speaker 2: of me, but you know where New Zealand is prepared

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Speaker 2: to be part of the global solution, and to.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be a hard sellers challenging numbers, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: How do you go to Kiwis right now? Who can

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Speaker 1: see that our health system is breaking and all the

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Speaker 1: stuff is falling apart and we're sliding into second world

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Speaker 1: status that we somehow have to stump up potentially a

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Speaker 1: share of one trillion dollars has to go to countries

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Speaker 1: like the Congo to help them when we can't even

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Speaker 1: help ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Ye, well, look yes it are. But I mean, i

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Speaker 2: think the primary thing that we're focused on. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: what all your listeners want to hear is our unroll

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Speaker 2: holding plan to actually get some growth back into this

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Speaker 2: economy and creates and well, that's the critical thing we

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Speaker 2: can do right here, right now, and that's what we're

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Speaker 2: really focused on. And that's you know, that's what Nicola Willison,

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Speaker 2: Chris Luxen and everybody you know wakes up every morning

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Speaker 2: is how, you know, what can we do to get

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Speaker 2: some growth? And one of those fundamentals is getting the

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Speaker 2: fast straight legislation through, dealing with some of the regulation,

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Speaker 2: giving tax relief. Those are the sorts of things, getting

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Speaker 2: inflation under control so that interest rates can come down.

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Speaker 2: Those are the things that we're focused on. And that's

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Speaker 2: the most important thing. We forgot. We've really got to

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Speaker 2: get the economy cracking. And that's number one.

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Speaker 1: What did Google say to you a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: ago that made you cave on that bill?

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Speaker 2: Did not cave on. There's no caving again. You're being delivery.

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Speaker 1: Then are you committed to the bill.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're working our way through the process and what

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Speaker 2: we've got here is, you know, I always said right

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Speaker 2: at the very start, this is a difficult issue because

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Speaker 2: what we're trying to grapple with is, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: massive change going on in the media and you know,

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Speaker 2: all credit to you, Heather and z b. You people

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Speaker 2: are doing well. You're attracting audiences, making money and that's great.

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Speaker 2: Not all the areas of the media are doing so well,

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Speaker 2: and so some of that might be pure competition. It

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Speaker 2: might be the factor in the recession. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: most important thing we can do for commercial media right

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Speaker 2: now to get the economy growing. Some people can spend

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Speaker 2: more on advertising and I actually make some money. But

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Speaker 2: the broader issue of how you corral you know, it's

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest companies in the world and have

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Speaker 2: a conversation around how that works is not straightforward and

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Speaker 2: I'm working my way through it. But when I've got

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Speaker 2: something to announce, you'll be the first to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to hold you to that. Paul, Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, thank you for your time. That's Paul Goldsmith,

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Speaker 1: Justice Minister and Broadcasting ministers.

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Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to

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Speaker 2: News Talk zi B from four pm weekdays, or follow

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Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio