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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at Large,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is

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Speaker 1: a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell

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Speaker 1: you how to get rich, and we're not going to

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Speaker 1: try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series,

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Speaker 1: I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money

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Speaker 1: has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years.

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Speaker 1: For today's podcast, I'm joined by celebrated author and recent

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Speaker 1: winner of the Ockham Book Awards, Emily Perkins Cura. Emily,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Money Talks.

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Speaker 2: Caldern, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Firstly, congratulations on winning the prize for fiction at the

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Speaker 1: Okham Awards for Lions. How did you getting the big

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Speaker 1: prize feel?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Thanks?

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Speaker 3: Look really what surprised me? I mean, prizes are strange

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Speaker 3: because of course you don't really put yourself forward for

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Speaker 3: them or right with having them in mind, and their

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Speaker 3: honestly aren't that many of them in New Zealand either,

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Speaker 3: So there's quite a bit of tension around it, I

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Speaker 3: guess for you know, the writing community.

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Speaker 1: Gen publishers get really excited and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've got to say it's like I really

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Speaker 3: do feel like it is another chance for books to

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Speaker 3: get a bit more attention and a bit more publicity

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Speaker 3: and a bit more of people talking about them, which

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Speaker 3: is always fantastic. And then yeah, I was just blown away.

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Speaker 3: Look there was an amazing short list of books, amazing

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Speaker 3: long list of books. It was a really good year

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Speaker 3: for New Zealand publishing. And yeah, I was thrilled and

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Speaker 3: really surprised. And it does mean money and these sort

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Speaker 3: of windfalls are kind of are pretty rare in the

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Speaker 3: book world.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, absolutely there's a chance to write some more.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely a chance to write some more. It's a

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Speaker 3: chance just to keep going. I mean, it's affirmation kind

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Speaker 3: of psychologically and MATERI really and I believe you had

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Speaker 3: the head of the of the overall sponsors.

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Speaker 1: From Welckholm, Mark Todd.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you had interesting guys. Yeah, and there's a lot.

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Speaker 3: I mean the award I won was the Jen med

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Speaker 3: Acorn Prize for Fiction, so you know it comes with

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Speaker 3: some very generous backing from all involved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I really enjoyed Liones. Just finished it last

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Speaker 1: night actually, and it is a triumph for me because

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Speaker 1: I don't read a lot of novels these days. My

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Speaker 1: wife already had it, obviously, but I become increasingly either

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Speaker 1: nonfiction or stuck on my phone and hard hard to

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Speaker 1: finish books. But look, I thought it was interesting. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's some themes there about self discovery and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff in midlife crisis. But for this podcast,

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Speaker 1: there was some quite big themes there around money and

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Speaker 1: class and you know that that whole world of finance

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Speaker 1: and property development and all that sort of stuff. I

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Speaker 1: just wondered how you came to sort of settle on

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Speaker 1: that as the for this novel, and you know what

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Speaker 1: your influence in inspiration was there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I always find money a really interesting

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Speaker 3: subject for fiction and for drama. There's an American writer

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Speaker 3: who I really admire called Grace Paley, and one of

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Speaker 3: the things that she said about writing was that every

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Speaker 3: story should include the facts of blood and money. And

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Speaker 3: you know, she was meaning to elaborate on that blood

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Speaker 3: ass in humanity, how we relate to each other, relationships, family,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing, and money being the sort of

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Speaker 3: practical thing that activates it all.

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Speaker 2: And well, it's not the.

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Speaker 3: Only thing that activates obviously, but it's something that influences

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Speaker 3: relationships quite a lot. And you know, I think the

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Speaker 3: way that money can be a preoccupant, whether you've got

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Speaker 3: you know, not enough or.

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Speaker 2: You've got too much. You know, there's always sort.

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Speaker 3: Of interesting stories around that. So as a p engine,

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Speaker 3: I think it's really really interesting. So I've written about

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Speaker 3: it having its kind of in the background in the past,

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Speaker 3: but I was particularly interested with Lioness in writing about

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Speaker 3: the world where people are incredibly comfortable and from the

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Speaker 3: point of view of somebody who has jumped class in

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Speaker 3: a way. So the narrator, Torase Thorn, you know, came

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Speaker 3: from you know, really humble sort of circumstances in her

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Speaker 3: young life, and then by marrying into money as a

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Speaker 3: very young woman, she kind of immediately became part of

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Speaker 3: this other sort of fairly rarefied world. So there was

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Speaker 3: sort of character reasons I wanted to explore it in

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Speaker 3: terms of who she was and whose sense of identity,

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Speaker 3: But also I think it's just a fascinating backdrop. I

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Speaker 3: mean that idea of we're always going to be drawn

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Speaker 3: to stories about the unhappy.

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Speaker 1: Rich, yeh. I mean, I've seen a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: and it rang true from what I've seen outside in

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Speaker 1: and oh in terms of you know, I covered the

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Speaker 1: global financial crisis and all the properly developers and finance

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Speaker 1: companies going over there's a certain I guess, a kind

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Speaker 1: of person that makes money central and then that the

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Speaker 1: world of trusts and lawyers and things takes over. And

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Speaker 1: I noticed you you referenced a book by Eldred Gregg.

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Speaker 1: What was the sort of research you did around that world.

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Speaker 3: Well, one of the primary sources was this wonderful book

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Speaker 3: by Stephen Aldred Gregg called The Rich, and.

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Speaker 2: It's a New Zealand history. I'd written a draft already

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Speaker 2: before I.

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Speaker 3: Found that book, but it was very sort of affirming

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Speaker 3: in terms of some of the kinds of different flavors

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Speaker 3: of wealth.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: He talks about the distinction between the kind of landed class,

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Speaker 3: landed gentry class, many of who've got deep origins and

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Speaker 3: sort of arriving here in stealing land, you know, coming

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Speaker 3: from other parts of the world and getting a foothold here,

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Speaker 3: or being part of a bigger sort of imperial or

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Speaker 3: colonial kind of global movement, like lots of families that

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Speaker 3: have also got I guess, kind of colonial connections in

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Speaker 3: other parts of the world.

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Speaker 2: As well, So that was sort of one tranch.

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Speaker 3: And then the idea of a more manufacturing or sort

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Speaker 3: of merchant class, just the sort of different social distinctions

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Speaker 3: that those kinds of wealth generate. So that was interesting

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Speaker 3: character logically as well. And then I went to I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure if it's still running, but there was a

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Speaker 3: fantastic thing called the Ford Film Festival, I think, which

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Speaker 3: was on in Auckland.

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Speaker 2: And my main character is married to a guy who's.

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Speaker 3: A property developer, but in an early draft of the

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Speaker 3: novel he was in more in finance, like a hedge

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Speaker 3: fund manager or something like that, And so I was

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Speaker 3: investigating different kinds of sort of pools of money and

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Speaker 3: different sorts of forcelant activity around these different territories. And

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Speaker 3: then I settled a bit later on and being a

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Speaker 3: property developer. So yeah, there was just a fair bit

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Speaker 3: of reading.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, look, we better jump back a bit and

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Speaker 1: I'll ask you about your relationship with money, I guess.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things I like to ask is

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Speaker 1: what your first memory of money is in terms of

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Speaker 1: actually remembering having it in your hand or having it

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Speaker 1: influence your world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember the sort of physical sensory aspects of

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Speaker 3: it really strongly, like what a two cent piece felt like,

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Speaker 3: and a two cent piece compared to a one cent

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Speaker 3: piece and a five cent piece, and the different colors,

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Speaker 3: the different metals, the different shininess, the different images. You know.

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Speaker 3: I think the coal fire on the two cents and

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Speaker 3: the tutara on the five cents just as objects, those

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Speaker 3: coins really fascinating to me, and I think they would

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Speaker 3: have always meant sweets. I was very interested in sweets

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Speaker 3: and sort of junk food in general, and the kind

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Speaker 3: of thing that we didn't much go in for in

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Speaker 3: my house, and so any opportunity I got where I

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Speaker 3: got some pocket money or whatever it was, that was

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Speaker 3: what it was going to.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. If there's one theme through this podcast that

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Speaker 1: just just with everyone I talked to, it's that they

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Speaker 1: went off down to the dairy, you know, to get

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Speaker 1: sweets with the pocket money.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there was something I think when you

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Speaker 3: were little as well. There is just something so magical

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Speaker 3: about that idea of the little white paper bag that's

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Speaker 3: got the lollymexentis or you know, a k bar or

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Speaker 3: a buzz bar, all those things that you could spin

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Speaker 3: out and make last for ages. So absolutely, that's what

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Speaker 3: money equaled to me, was the opportunity to eat sweets

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Speaker 3: and then later on chippies and a bit later on cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: But I was giving my own money I had, well

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Speaker 2: mostly I was. I mean by that time I sort

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Speaker 2: of heard a paper round and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So was that the first part time job?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, I had a weird kind of history because

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Speaker 3: my mother and sister and I were cast in a

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Speaker 3: few TV commercials when we were when my sister and

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Speaker 3: I were really young, and so really my first experience

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Speaker 3: of earning money was when I was sort of like

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Speaker 3: seven or eight, and for that era, it was a

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Speaker 3: lot of money. Like I was a weird you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of lump sum for a day's work, and we

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Speaker 3: were traveling when I was about nine and ten for

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Speaker 3: my dad's work. But we sort of went around lots

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Speaker 3: of other places and stayed with family and went to

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Speaker 3: you know, like really quite a big trip for those days.

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Speaker 3: This was like nineteen seventy nine or eighty.

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Speaker 2: And the money that we've made doing ads contributed to that.

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Speaker 1: So there was kind of different money, you know, big money,

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Speaker 1: but sort of more set aside, which.

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Speaker 3: Was sort of this story of me with money for

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Speaker 3: a little while, it was either these you know, strange

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Speaker 3: kind of amounts or then something like I had a

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Speaker 3: shared paper around, I did lots of babysitting. I would

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Speaker 3: do a friend and I did sort of invented a

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Speaker 3: summer job for ourselves where we looked after other people's

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Speaker 3: children and did a kind of quote quote art club

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Speaker 3: with them, you know, student jobs, jobs, painting people's shards,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: And then when I.

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Speaker 3: Left school when I was fifteen to do a job

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Speaker 3: in a drama program that was made by TV and Z,

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Speaker 3: which was a year's work, and that was again sort

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Speaker 3: of not at the sort of being paid in the.

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Speaker 2: Commercial rates end of the spectrum, but.

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Speaker 3: It was still I mean, it was like a lot

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Speaker 3: of money for a sixteen year old to be earning.

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Speaker 1: Was that straight out of school or did you leave

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Speaker 1: school to do that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I had got my EUI and I left school

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Speaker 3: to do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And.

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Speaker 3: So that was I was sort of swinging between this

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Speaker 3: kind of like yeah, whatever a paper a round pays.

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Speaker 3: And you know, once I started, once I was earning

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Speaker 3: the TV money, my mother had me pay rent at home,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I mean I yeah, it was just

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Speaker 3: it was just strange because it was sort of like

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Speaker 3: then it was back to waitressing.

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Speaker 1: Or yeah, and it was a growing up. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like you moved around a bit like born in christ Church,

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Speaker 1: but you grew up in Auckland and Wellington, is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we lived.

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Speaker 3: We moved from christ Church to Auckland when I was

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Speaker 3: just a baby, and then we moved to Wellington when

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Speaker 3: I was eleven, and then I sort of bounced up

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Speaker 3: and down a bit between the two and my kind

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Speaker 3: of later teens in early twenties.

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Speaker 1: And do you remember, I mean, do you remember much

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Speaker 1: about money in the widest sense of the time, either

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Speaker 1: with the family and also you know that's growing up

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Speaker 1: through pretty similar to me, through that radical change in

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Speaker 1: the early eighties and nineteen eighty four and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we you know, I had had a middle

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Speaker 3: class upbringing. I mean it was like really you know,

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Speaker 3: materially comfortable, and I remember that this sort of change

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Speaker 3: of mood that seemed to come in with the eighties

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Speaker 3: as well. And then I remember, I mean it was

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Speaker 3: a bit later, but I do remember vividly the Employment

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Speaker 3: Contracts Act and you know that whole I remember, sort

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Speaker 3: of I think I.

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Speaker 1: Was busting other unions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that just being this sense

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Speaker 3: that there was a lot of societal change that was

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Speaker 3: going on around money and employment and rights and class

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Speaker 3: and how these things were all sort of into interwoven

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Speaker 3: to affect a sense of, you know, this sort of

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Speaker 3: sense of society and what society here was.

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Speaker 1: As a student, and I guess as a high school student,

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Speaker 1: were You're always interested in English, I guess, you know,

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Speaker 1: and was writing always on the cards. I see that.

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Speaker 1: You know, you sort of fell into that acting almost

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Speaker 1: out of school, and that could have gone that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean because after I did that TV show,

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Speaker 3: went to toy Pacardi, went to drama school and pursued

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Speaker 3: that for a little while. But I had been kind

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Speaker 3: of writing as well, and I loved English at school,

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Speaker 3: English and all those sorts of classics, those kind of subjects.

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Speaker 3: So I always did want to work in the arts

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Speaker 3: in some way. And I suppose because early on I

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Speaker 3: had quite a bit of luck with getting acting jobs,

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Speaker 3: that was the thing I was drawn to initially.

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Speaker 1: Was there ever a sense of concern either from your

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Speaker 1: parents or even yourself, you know, just that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's obviously if you're thinking about, you know, financial security,

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Speaker 1: the arts is kind of risky certainly, you know, ups

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Speaker 1: and downs, potential for great success, but I guess neither

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Speaker 1: acting or writing are necessarily IM going to be financially guaranteed.

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Speaker 2: No, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I thought very long term at all

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Speaker 3: in that regard, and my parents were pretty encouraging. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they would have probably really liked me to have a

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Speaker 3: more steady backup option, but they certainly never said, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't do this. I mean, again, it's funny

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Speaker 3: the different effects of class because we think about it

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Speaker 3: through the money lens.

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Speaker 2: But I do think one of the things that can.

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Speaker 3: Be the case was why I believe we should talk

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Speaker 3: about it more and why I'm interested in writing about

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Speaker 3: it and talking to you about it today. There's a

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Speaker 3: kind of thing about having a middle class or upper

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Speaker 3: middle class, you know, sort of background where you're encouraged

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Speaker 3: to expect that you can do things. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: a sort of mindset as much as anything. And so

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Speaker 3: I think in that sense, I was incredibly privileged. Like

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Speaker 3: I just think that that's the sort of aspect of

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Speaker 3: class privilege that it's good for us to be more

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Speaker 3: conscious about because it's not you know, there's not a

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Speaker 3: kind of equality around that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it would be nice to think we

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Speaker 1: were expanding that, but it's possible it's going the other way.

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Speaker 2: I mean that it's right.

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Speaker 1: People are more concerning you to get a house, for example,

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Speaker 1: kids have got to be thinking earlier about how they're

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Speaker 1: going to pay get the deposit and pay the mortgage

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Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I've got kids who around that kind

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Speaker 3: of age group now of late teens and early twenties,

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Speaker 3: and it's just, you know, you just don't know where

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Speaker 3: to start. You really don't know where to start thinking

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Speaker 3: about that. So I think there's a way in which

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Speaker 3: I was able to sort of feel confident pursuing a

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Speaker 3: life in the arts, partly because the arts in general

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Speaker 3: were a big part of my childhood and upbringing, in

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Speaker 3: a sort of valued in my childhood and in my education.

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Speaker 3: But also but yeah, because there was this sort of

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Speaker 3: privileged idea that what you wanted to do you could

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Speaker 3: probably make work, you know, the sort of sense that yeah,

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Speaker 3: just a sort of confidence, and you know, of course

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Speaker 3: there were times when it was really harder.

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Speaker 2: And I lived in London from.

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Speaker 3: My mid twenties to my mid thirties, and you know

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Speaker 3: that was also like often really financially challenging, but we

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Speaker 3: were always arouse, always around other people who are doing

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Speaker 3: similar things.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of become part of a world.

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Speaker 3: Where that's that precarity is the norm, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: And you sort of have found a way through all

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Speaker 1: those years, and I guess now to some extent as well,

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Speaker 1: to sort of keep writing, but also working in the

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Speaker 1: publishing industry teaching those sort of things to keep some

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Speaker 1: steady income as well as writing. Is that a difficult it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 3: And I've sort of come and gone from doing freelance

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Speaker 3: work to having changes of doing full time work, and

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Speaker 3: I've just sort of cobbled it together again, not with

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Speaker 3: any great plan or much degree of kind of foresight

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Speaker 3: or or yeah the future, it's all been a bit accidental.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's sort of I would say it's worked

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Speaker 3: out over the years, but there've definitely been times when

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Speaker 3: I haven't got my own writing done, in my own

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Speaker 3: projects finished, because I've been you know, it's been more

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Speaker 3: important to have a full time job and to be

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Speaker 3: secure in that way for my family, and you know,

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Speaker 3: when the kids were younger particularly, so there are ways

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Speaker 3: so much as hard to write or make kind of

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Speaker 3: different sorts of work and have full time employment. There's

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Speaker 3: all kinds of like C and Z. You know, I

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Speaker 3: did a study crab New Zealand, like a couple of

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Speaker 3: years ago. I don't know if you want any fats

336
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Speaker 3: and figures. Sure, I think this is from a study

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Speaker 3: that creat New Zealand did with Zen on air and

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Speaker 3: conducted by an organization called Kantar Public. And this is

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Speaker 3: a couple of years ago. Creative professionals median income in

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Speaker 3: New Zealand is thirty seven thousand dollars compared to the

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Speaker 3: median of sixty one eight hundred dollars for salary and waging.

342
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Speaker 3: So that sort of you know, it goes on from

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Speaker 3: there in the median income from creative pursuits alone, like

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Speaker 3: if you're not supplementing, your income is nineteen five hundred

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Speaker 3: dollars a year, and then that shrinks if you're a woman,

346
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Speaker 3: and that shrinks again if you're a deaf or disabled artist.

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Speaker 3: So it's like there are Yeah, it's very useful to

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Speaker 3: have these facts.

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Speaker 2: I think and I.

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Speaker 1: Mean the idea that you have to say, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of there's almost a romantic idea that you

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Speaker 1: almost have to sacrifice everything else to be, especially a

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Speaker 1: novelist or a poet or something like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: did you sort of always push back against that of it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I do push back against that because I feel

356
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Speaker 3: like that sort of Yeah, the idea of the starving

357
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Speaker 3: artist and the garrett that particular cliche.

358
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Speaker 2: I mean, it just doesn't serve the artist, you know.

359
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Speaker 3: And obviously we're coming into a time which is even

360
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Speaker 3: more complicated by the different ways that you know, arts

361
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Speaker 3: get sort of consumed and commodified and you know, the

362
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Speaker 3: sort of dreaded word content that gets banded around, the

363
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Speaker 3: kind of reduction of a lot of artistic practice to

364
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Speaker 3: this concept of content.

365
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Speaker 2: And you know, then you've.

366
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Speaker 3: Got those sorts of ideas that there are plenty of

367
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Speaker 3: other people making money out of, you know, artists' works.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about musicians and sort of platforms where their

369
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Speaker 3: work might be accessed. It's yeah, there's enormous inequality in

370
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Speaker 3: the arts in in terms of you know, how people

371
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Speaker 3: get paid and yeah, and certainly any kind of security

372
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Speaker 3: around that and Look, I'm incredibly lucky. I'm writing full

373
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Speaker 3: time at the moment, and I'm well aware that I'm

374
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Speaker 3: in a really particularly privileged position in New Zealand terms being.

375
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Speaker 2: Able to do that right now.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's going to always be

377
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Speaker 3: the case, but the factors, I can do it at

378
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,199
Speaker 3: the moment, and that's yeah, that's a rare thing. So

379
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Speaker 3: I'm well aware that I'm speaking from a particularly fortunate

380
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Speaker 3: position as well.

381
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you work to get there, I mean, but

382
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Speaker 1: it's yeah, no.

383
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Speaker 3: It's not like it's just sort of gets you know.

384
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Speaker 3: I don't doubt that, and I'm i guess sort of

385
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Speaker 3: comparatively with other fields as well. It's got its challenges,

386
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Speaker 3: but I just mean, across the arts in general, there

387
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Speaker 3: are people who are you know, who are pursuing it

388
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Speaker 3: against great odds, and I really admire that.

389
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Speaker 2: I wish that they were.

390
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Speaker 3: Sorry, while I'm on Maine, but this is where I

391
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Speaker 3: do think that it would be great to investigate the

392
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Speaker 3: idea of a universal basic income, or certainly some kind

393
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Speaker 3: of like income for artists. That would mean that there

394
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Speaker 3: were we were able to experience arts made by practitioners

395
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Speaker 3: from you know, from any walk of life, rather than

396
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Speaker 3: it being something that becomes only available to people who

397
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Speaker 3: can afford to pursue it.

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then to survive on it. There is an

399
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: element of not so much lack or whatever. But you know,

400
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 1: it's very difficult if you're producing only for the New

401
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: Zealand market. Did you feel you know, you've you've presumably

402
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 1: got more reach now and does that help because you know,

403
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: I've noticed with book publishing in particular, the New Zealand

404
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: market is so small, and it's probably the same with

405
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: music and bands and things. As soon as you find

406
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: a niche outside of New Zealand, it's got more potential financially,

407
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 1: I guess.

408
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely true.

409
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Speaker 3: And I think because I first started publishing when I

410
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 3: was living in the UK, so I've always had this

411
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 3: sort of double thing where my books have come out

412
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 3: there and here at the same time. And I mean,

413
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 3: even late Australia is just a much bigger market than

414
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 3: New Zealand, so if you can get work going over.

415
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: There, then that's also a really good thing.

416
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 3: It's definitely hard and small here and that's another reason

417
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 3: why I just believe that state support for the arts

418
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: is necessary if we're going to have any kind of

419
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 3: arts culture at all.

420
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually exporting it to you know, to help

421
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: export it to the world. I guess that's right. Have

422
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: you worked with people around adapting your work into film, television,

423
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: that kind of thing?

424
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I have, so that various things have kind

425
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: of come and gone in terms of rights over the years.

426
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Speaker 3: And then yeah, there's the rights for Lions have been

427
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 3: picked up, so that's really great, but there's you know,

428
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 3: there's sort of nothing to say about it until it's.

429
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 1: A sure yeah hopefully fingers crossed. Yeah, I mean a

430
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: complicated kind of process.

431
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's a it's a long process. So

432
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 3: it's wonderful. I think that's one thing that I've got

433
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 3: to by the sort of the stage in my career

434
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 3: is that I celebrate every small, little moment because you

435
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 3: never know if it's going to lead to anything else,

436
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 3: and it's just like worth celebrating in and of itself.

437
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm thrilled that the rights have been picked up.

438
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, but New Zealand, you know, New Zealand arts generally

439
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: isn't a place where you can set a story like Lions.

440
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's a New Zealand story in terms of setting,

441
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: a location and some of the language. But it's also

442
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: a fairly well modern Western universal story as well, so

443
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: the world can deal with New Zealand as a backdrop

444
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: and not be too thrown by that.

445
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, absolutely, And I think you can see

446
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: that across the success of you know, I mean to say,

447
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: a recent example of the tea series After the Party.

448
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's just done brilliantly in Australia, it's been

449
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: winning prizes in France. It's looking to get a miniscota

450
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: show in the UK later this year. So something can

451
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 3: be I think it's so true of the arts in

452
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: general that something can be very specific to the place

453
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 3: that it comes from and to its location, but if

454
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: it pays close enough.

455
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: Attention to that, then they're unleashes.

456
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 3: Off on a kind of universality that people can connect

457
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 3: with from anywhere.

458
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: I've got a few quick fire money questions that we

459
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: throw at guests. One of them would be, what's the

460
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: poorest you've ever been?

461
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: Probably just in overdrivet deepest in debt thing?

462
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 3: Well, I suppose, well, deepest in debt would be having

463
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: a mortgage. I mean, yeah, having a mortgage. On how

464
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: we bought our first flat when we're living in the UK,

465
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: and it was actually more achievable there because you could

466
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: have like a zero deposit, like a tiny deposit. Interest

467
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: rates were much lower than they were here at the time,

468
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: and you could get interest only mortgages. So that was

469
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: sort of how we got a foothold. And then yeah,

470
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: I don't know whatever, whenever my mortgage is at its biggest,

471
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: the deepest and debt sure.

472
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: And sort of the flip side of that is, do

473
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: you recall the time when you felt like, Okay, you're

474
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: comfortable enough now, and what would be the most indulgent

475
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: purchase you can remember having made?

476
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 3: I think that my most indulgent spending of money would

477
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: be travel.

478
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: Definitely.

479
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: Someone who sort of cares more about money for experiences

480
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: rather than things, would you say.

481
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: Well, I would.

482
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I do also like my things. And this

483
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 3: is where you know, sort of coming from and writing line,

484
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm examining the sort of soul of this

485
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 3: woman who who's married into money and found that the

486
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: nice things that she surrounded herself with are a bit

487
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: of a trap and they're kind of preventing her from

488
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 3: seeing other kinds of ways of living and really being

489
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: more true to herself. But I didn't want to judge

490
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: that either, because I can understand why nice things sort

491
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: of become talismanic to her. And when I say nice things,

492
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: I mean you could be talking about something from something

493
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: very very small that is just a purely you know,

494
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 3: an object that kind of gives you some sort of

495
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 3: comfort or sense of beauty, to something much bigger. So yeah,

496
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 3: I would find it hard to get rid of my

497
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: creature comforts for sure. But I mean I think it's

498
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: really about you don't need to keep on crowing those

499
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: things at all. I believe her in a bit of

500
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: concept of enoughism, and that was another thing I wanted

501
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: to investigate with the book. You know, why is it

502
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: that people don't just stop when they've got enough?

503
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: Why not?

504
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: It's an absolute mystery to me, in an unanswerable question.

505
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: So I was really keen to explore that through those characters.

506
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, some of the characters do challenge that

507
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: whole idea of I guess that lifestyle, which is Teresa's

508
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: shops and things that is sold that kind of traps

509
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: people into the next designer thing. You know, A nice

510
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: thing about a novel I guess is that you can

511
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: have an argument with yourself via different characters.

512
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: Liam, That is perfectly put. I mean, that's exactly what

513
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 3: I think that fiction and drama can do is sort

514
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: of have these arguments and just activate them and have

515
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 3: them be alive and complicated and not you know, not

516
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: be black and white, not have to come down on

517
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: a side of right or wrong, but just sort of

518
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: really exploring the complexity of the issues. I mean, hopefully

519
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 3: you know, through a fun and entertaining story that's going

520
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: to carry you along in that sense as well. Yeah,

521
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: So those sorts of different not any kind of a

522
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: is to the material world. We're a big part of

523
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 3: the engine of the writing for me.

524
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: Sure. I mean one of the questions I always ask

525
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: on this and it sort of goes to that what

526
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: you're saying about why people keep doing it is, you know,

527
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: is making money important to you or is it more

528
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: of a byproduct of success?

529
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: It's a byproduct.

530
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's where we do live in

531
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: a world where money is seen as a marker of success,

532
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: and we know how really misconstrued that can be. You know,

533
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: it's just like absolutely, you know, that's the sort of

534
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 3: it's really dangerous to make that correlation, I think. But

535
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: I think examining what you mean by success is something

536
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: that you have to do and keep doing, you know,

537
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: through your life in various different ways. And for me, yeah,

538
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: creative success is not to do with money. It's it's

539
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 3: not about that, I mean.

540
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: And I guess you know that makes sense. I'm asking

541
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: that question of a novelist and people might expect that answer,

542
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: but I would say, it's interesting is I've asked it

543
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: of you know, property developers and basically billionaires, multi millionaires,

544
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: and they all say the same thing. They all say

545
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: money is not important. It's always you know, whether it's

546
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: structuring the perfect business deal or you know, just their

547
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: incredible goal set is some of these people. And it

548
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: just so happens that if you're in property development or finance,

549
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: that money is a big, bry product of that success.

550
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: And so well, I'd say, then if it's not the

551
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 3: point of the success, and all the more reason to

552
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: spread it.

553
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: Around fair enough.

554
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: It's a great opportunity for them to do that.

555
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: I sometimes ask people what their favorite song about money

556
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: is on this podcast. I guess I could ask that,

557
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: but I wonder if you do, you have a favorite

558
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: book that touches on wealth and money.

559
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean I would really recommend this book,

560
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: the Steven Alder.

561
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm interested in that.

562
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: Actually, it's very entertainingly written, and you know it's.

563
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: It's just called the Rich. It's called the Rich. I

564
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: think a social history of New Zealand. Perhaps I might

565
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: get that slightly wrong, but yeah, it goes up to

566
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: the nineties. I think that's about as far as it goes.

567
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: And obviously things have changed even more since then, but

568
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: he's certainly got the trajectory that has led us to

569
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: where we currently are.

570
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. One last question. Really, you know this

571
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: is sort of a big social economic question, but what

572
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: we sort of ask is, if we could make you

573
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: Prime Minister for the day and give you control of

574
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: the economy and society for a day, is there some

575
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: policy that you would put at the top of the

576
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: list that you would like to enact to really address

577
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: equity in social and economic inequality.

578
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: Look, I know it's a hard one to work out

579
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: because there are lots of different kind of approaches and

580
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: complexities that would come out of it, But I would

581
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: go for a ubi that would probably be the first

582
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: thing I do. Maybe also, I'd be looking at different

583
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: ways of honoring to tilty and you know, pushing some

584
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: more policies through in that regard. And I think those

585
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: two things hand in hand would do us an enormous

586
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: amount of good. Yeah.

587
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I was going to ask, would you like

588
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: to see more government investment in the arts? But I

589
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: guess if you had that universal basic income, it might

590
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: not have to be doled out in the same way.

591
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: It might look different the way it comes through.

592
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: And yeah, you'd need a lot of very good minds

593
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: working on it and just fine tuning it, and you know,

594
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: it might take a few different goals to get it right,

595
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 3: but I think it would be much more fair than

596
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: the way things are now.

597
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: Cool.

598
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's it from us. Thank you very much Emily

599
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: Perkins for talking to us for.

600
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: Money Talks, Thanks for having me on.

601
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If

602
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch, drop me a line

603
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: Liam dot Dan at nzmeed dot co dot nz and

604
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: you can read more from me at insidherld dot co

605
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: dot INZID. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound

606
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: engineer Leanne mc donald. Follow Money talks on iHeartRadio or

607
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday.