1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,560
Speaker 1: MPs across the House of paid tribute to former Prime

2
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Minister Jim Bolger, who passed away at ninety. Winston Peters

3
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,119
Speaker 1: is one of only two MP's in Parliament today who

4
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:09,399
Speaker 1: served m Bulger's government.

5
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,399
Speaker 2: It's true to say that twenty nine years ago, in

6
00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 2: nine ninety six, we formed the first MMP government. We

7
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,320
Speaker 2: he put differences aside, shook hands on that agreement, and

8
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 2: more importantly, he kept his word.

9
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 1: And Chris Luxon said that even recently he'd been getting

10
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: the odd call from Jim.

11
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,640
Speaker 3: But since becoming Prime Minister, I received a few quiet

12
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,159
Speaker 3: phone calls from him. They were short, sincere and thoughtful.

13
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 3: He offered encouragement, perspective and advice, advice that I took seriously.

14
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:39,599
Speaker 2: Now.

15
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 1: Ruth Richardson was Jim Bolger's first Finance Minister.

16
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,600
Speaker 4: Hi, Ruth, greetings, Heather.

17
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,879
Speaker 1: You have much of a relationship with Jim Bolger in

18
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:48,560
Speaker 1: recent days.

19
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 4: I last saw him at the Press Gallery anniversary and he,

20
00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 4: as always, was magnanimous but dismissive because he had come

21
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 4: to take a very different view of public policy to mine.

22
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 4: Our most crossing of swords in his post politics years

23
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,679
Speaker 4: were over Brexit, where I predicted that Brexit would be

24
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,520
Speaker 4: voted in by the British public, and he completely poo

25
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 4: poohed me, and I must say a bit of glee

26
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,520
Speaker 4: and doing I told you so, How.

27
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: Do you feel about what happened in the last well,

28
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,039
Speaker 1: I want to say the last few years, but it

29
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,119
Speaker 1: really is a very long time. But recently he had

30
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,720
Speaker 1: come to criticize his own government and then what he

31
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: calls the neoliberal policies. How did you feel about that?

32
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,039
Speaker 4: Well? I felt a bit affronted, and I think he

33
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 4: sold himself short. I mean, he showed policy bravery when

34
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 4: he had to. He gave the reformers licenses to you know,

35
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 4: completely and fundamentally change fiscal policy, labor market policy. He

36
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 4: was not an accessory after the fact, he was part

37
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 4: of that government. And to me, he really did put

38
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 4: a slur on his own reputation by recanting, because he

39
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 4: recanted on no good evidence at all. If you look

40
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 4: at the labor market, it's been highly successful. If you

41
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 4: have a look at the fiscore responsibility rules, they've generally

42
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 4: been highly successful. So why he would want from a

43
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 4: great height to effectively do the proverbial on success I

44
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 4: do not know.

45
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think happened there? Did he did?

46
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 1: He just reflect on what had happened in the nineties

47
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 1: and regrets it, or actually, was he always in the

48
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:34,960
Speaker 1: wrong party?

49
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 4: I don't think he was in the wrong party. But

50
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,320
Speaker 4: remember the National Party as a party of management. It's

51
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,720
Speaker 4: a party that is transactional. The government of which I

52
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 4: was a member and which he was a willing participant

53
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 4: in those first three years, was a government of transformation.

54
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 4: So to an extent, that's a deviation from the norm

55
00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 4: of the National Party, and he just reverted to type.

56
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 4: He learned his political craft at the knees of Mouldoon

57
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 4: He and Birch and Crewe snop filled rooms. They were

58
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,120
Speaker 4: used to doing the deals. This was a new era

59
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 4: and it wasn't that he was dragged into it kicking

60
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 4: and screaming. His hand was forced by dreadful economic circumstances

61
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 4: that we faced a real baptism of fire. We did

62
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 4: what was right. The results were seven percent growth, The

63
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 4: books are balanced. Any minister of finance would give their

64
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 4: iteth for that sort of result. Today from those policies.

65
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 1: What do you think his legacy will be? Because he's

66
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,440
Speaker 1: kind of divorced himself from that right by essentially kind

67
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 1: of divorcing himself from you on that. Do you think

68
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 1: his legacy is going to be what happened with the settlements?

69
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 4: His legacy should be fiscal responsibility. You know, he stood

70
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 4: up when he had to, which is much more than

71
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 4: subsequent government it's had dealings, say with the age of superannuation,

72
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 4: where they've just basically piked. He didn't pike. He didn't flinch.

73
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 4: On treaty settlements. He will be remembered as the initiator

74
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 4: of that, and in fact it started in nineteen ninety

75
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 4: two with the Sea Lord's settlement. Was the first showing

76
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,720
Speaker 4: of hand that we were prepared to seek some deal

77
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 4: with grievances and give some financial redress. I think the

78
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,679
Speaker 4: other apart from MMP, which I think is a blot

79
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 4: on the electoral landscape and a stopping us from making

80
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 4: high quality, good decisions. Now, his other legacy is a

81
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 4: physical one, and that is to Papa. You know, we

82
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 4: had no business funding to paper. When we did, we

83
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,480
Speaker 4: were in dire straits. Jim had agreed in the Cabinet

84
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 4: Committee that we wouldn't go ahead right project wrong time,

85
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,279
Speaker 4: and I think it was Joan that changed his mind

86
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 4: over the weekend. It came to cabinet on Monday morning

87
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,359
Speaker 4: and said we're going to do it, and you know,

88
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 4: I was left, you're a bit gobs back, but we

89
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 4: did it.

90
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,479
Speaker 1: Ruth, thank you very much, appreciate it. On Ruth Richardson

91
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,280
Speaker 1: former Finance Ministrander Jim Boulger.

92
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 3: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to

93
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:12,839
Speaker 3: news talks.

94
00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,039
Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast

95
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,160
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.