WEBVTT - The psyche of a scammer–how to keep safe

0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Cura.

0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm Helen from Chezy's and I'm here with Pa, our

0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:10.840
<v Speaker 2>security manager, to talk about scams. Scammers are catching lots

0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.399
<v Speaker 2>of New Zealanders out, so we thought we'd look at

0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.400
<v Speaker 2>the psyche of a scammer, some of the red flags

0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.639
<v Speaker 2>that we all miss and what to do with you

0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.560
<v Speaker 2>or someone you know get scammed. Hi, Pier, good to

0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:22.439
<v Speaker 2>have you in the studio.

0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.280
<v Speaker 1>Well thanks for having me in.

0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.920
<v Speaker 2>With scammers, what is the psyche? What's the behavior behind

0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.800
<v Speaker 2>their motivation and the behaviors that they exhibit toward unsuspecting people.

0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>I think the psyche of a scammer is ultimately rooted

0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.800
<v Speaker 1>in financial gain, but beneath that, there's a lot of

0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.559
<v Speaker 1>things going on. You're depending on the type of scam

0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.000
<v Speaker 1>and the type of person you're dealing with. Often people

0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.080
<v Speaker 1>involved in scams are part of very large networks and

0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.639
<v Speaker 1>very complex kind of scam infrastructure, so to speak. Very

0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.280
<v Speaker 1>often the people you're talking about are you talking to

0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.680
<v Speaker 1>or chatting whether or who are called cold calling you

0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.319
<v Speaker 1>and things like that, are actually people coming from a

0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.840
<v Speaker 1>place of desperation. Sometimes they are victims themselves. They might

0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.840
<v Speaker 1>be stuck in a debt track or something like that

0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.200
<v Speaker 1>where they've got no choice but to your continue with

0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.759
<v Speaker 1>the activity. And other times they don't actually know they're

0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.360
<v Speaker 1>involved in a scam. As far as they're aware, they've

0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:24.240
<v Speaker 1>got a legitimate outbound call center role or your sales

0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.120
<v Speaker 1>role to refer people into the depths of a scam network.

0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:34.000
<v Speaker 2>They are just how sophisticated are these scam rings?

0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Incredibly sophisticated and incredibly well funded. So generally you have

0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.640
<v Speaker 1>you're at the top level international crime syndicate, you're involved

0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.120
<v Speaker 1>who do a lot of the planning and set up

0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:51.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the infrastructure and provide a lot of

0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.720
<v Speaker 1>the technology for scams to take place. And then a

0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of the kind of legwork and the scam behavior

0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:03.440
<v Speaker 1>that the public see is actually like outsourced across the world,

0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.400
<v Speaker 1>particularly in third world countries where people may not have

0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:07.840
<v Speaker 1>a better choice for an income.

0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.400
<v Speaker 2>What are the phases of being scammed right from the

0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>very beginning to the end, would you say, so.

0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about the kind of initial phase of a scam.

0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.160
<v Speaker 1>This is a phase where scammers tend to cast a

0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.359
<v Speaker 1>very wide net. It's quite rare that they're targeting individuals.

0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.200
<v Speaker 1>At this point. You imagine yourself going about your ordinary business.

0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.919
<v Speaker 1>You might see a post on social media that's you're

0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.960
<v Speaker 1>making an offer you can't refuse. You things in your

0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.080
<v Speaker 1>email inbox. You know they have a really strong sense

0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.600
<v Speaker 1>of urgency about them, that you have a call to action,

0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.720
<v Speaker 1>that you need to action then and there without thinking

0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.760
<v Speaker 1>about it too much further. And these will inevitably have

0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the goal of putting you in contact with a scammer

0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.720
<v Speaker 1>who will communicate with you and bring a person deeper

0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:55.720
<v Speaker 1>into the scam.

0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.440
<v Speaker 2>What would be the second phase of a scam.

0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Once you've made contact with the scammer, it's all about

0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:06.800
<v Speaker 1>building trust and rapport from their side. Obviously, you're a

0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of people are aware that scams happen. We see

0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.360
<v Speaker 1>communications day in day out about how to protect ourselves

0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.480
<v Speaker 1>from scams, and so scammers have to socially engineer their

0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:23.320
<v Speaker 1>way around the kind of your internal suspicion that we maintain.

0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.640
<v Speaker 1>And so at that point you start seeing that kind

0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.400
<v Speaker 1>of foot in the door pattern or the escalating yeses

0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.560
<v Speaker 1>where they'll make really small, innocuous asks of a person

0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.720
<v Speaker 1>and slowly ramp up those asks. So no request from

0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.560
<v Speaker 1>a scammer feels like very much bigger than the last request,

0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.760
<v Speaker 1>but actually after ten or so requests, you know they're

0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:50.880
<v Speaker 1>asking for your much larger things. At that point, the

0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.320
<v Speaker 1>scam is if someone's being roped in. These scammers have

0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.720
<v Speaker 1>kind of generated a lead, and very often they'll rely

0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:02.240
<v Speaker 1>on something like triangulation where they bring in a third person,

0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.560
<v Speaker 1>their manager or their special advisor, who not only is

0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.120
<v Speaker 1>it an appeal to authority, but it's also putting you

0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.960
<v Speaker 1>in a position where you're really privileged to kind of

0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.279
<v Speaker 1>have that time with them, right and often you're in

0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.120
<v Speaker 1>the case of things like investment scams, it's on the

0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.080
<v Speaker 1>basis of, oh, we're giving you this free advice for

0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.280
<v Speaker 1>a very limited time, so you better make the most

0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.440
<v Speaker 1>of that, or you miss out on your returns or

0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:33.799
<v Speaker 1>potentially you won't get to be part of their special

0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:38.000
<v Speaker 1>advice program or whatever the case may be. And it's

0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:43.560
<v Speaker 1>also at that stage an opportunity for them to triarge victims. Obviously,

0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.200
<v Speaker 1>if in their communications of victims indicated that they have

0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:49.919
<v Speaker 1>a high net worth or they have a lot of

0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.000
<v Speaker 1>money to it, or that they could potentially spend, then

0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.440
<v Speaker 1>they're likely to get referred to a higher performing manager

0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.200
<v Speaker 1>to try and convert that into income. For the scam,

0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.440
<v Speaker 1>the other things. You'll notice that that kind of second

0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.919
<v Speaker 1>stage is very often someone will get pulled into a

0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.679
<v Speaker 1>group chat. There'll be lots of people in there, people

0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.080
<v Speaker 1>talking really positively, maybe about the returns of the scam

0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:17.040
<v Speaker 1>and things like that, but most of those people are

0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.600
<v Speaker 1>going to be plants by the scammers you're to convince

0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.120
<v Speaker 1>you give you that kind of sense of safety that

0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.680
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of other people are benefiting from it. Once

0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:29.240
<v Speaker 1>you get into that kind of interaction with the kind

0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.880
<v Speaker 1>of scam manager or where you're at the point where

0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.360
<v Speaker 1>they're trying to actually execute the scam and get you

0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.640
<v Speaker 1>to do the thing that takes them to the angle,

0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:43.080
<v Speaker 1>whether that's providing bank account can't details, credentials, transferring funds,

0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.159
<v Speaker 1>you're investing in a specific instrument. In the case of

0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:52.000
<v Speaker 1>investment scam, there's generally a shift in behavior with these scammers.

0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.839
<v Speaker 1>You're no longer in a position where they're being nice

0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.840
<v Speaker 1>to you and giving you all this great advice and

0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.680
<v Speaker 1>kind of trying to rip you in this kind of

0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.400
<v Speaker 1>almost sinister feedback loop of when when you do the

0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.240
<v Speaker 1>things they ask, they're very very kind to you and

0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.800
<v Speaker 1>and very praising, But when you're non compliant, they'll often

0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.680
<v Speaker 1>be quite cruel, and that's that kind of cult like

0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.800
<v Speaker 1>behavioral loop where you get conditioned to doing the things

0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.839
<v Speaker 1>that make them happy, even though effectively they're a stranger

0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:31.760
<v Speaker 1>on the internet. Once a scam is kind of executed

0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.880
<v Speaker 1>on whatever its initial goal is, very often either they

0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.360
<v Speaker 1>go into like a cover up phase. You're maybe there

0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.320
<v Speaker 1>was a pump and dump scam, and they go, oh, no,

0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.440
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't a pump and dump, but you know, there's

0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.400
<v Speaker 1>these malicious people on the market short selling our stock.

0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.719
<v Speaker 1>We're sorry that you're falling victim to that. You know,

0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:54.360
<v Speaker 1>we're going to do the best we can to make

0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.840
<v Speaker 1>things right. Or sometimes they will just fall silent. You'll

0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.960
<v Speaker 1>get blocked. You the money, he's gone, they don't care

0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:07.200
<v Speaker 1>about you anymore. But also sometimes they will take the

0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.600
<v Speaker 1>turn of oh, you know, we're very sorry you lost money.

0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:15.080
<v Speaker 1>We can help compensate you, and then kind of bring

0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.360
<v Speaker 1>you back into the fold of complying with them and

0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.040
<v Speaker 1>participating further in their scam and losing out a bit more.

0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.840
<v Speaker 1>And though that kind of stuff we see more and

0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.560
<v Speaker 1>more of now, where not only is it happening from

0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.800
<v Speaker 1>the scam is someone's initially interacting with. But people are

0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.840
<v Speaker 1>searching online on social media. You're on Reddit, You're wherever

0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.880
<v Speaker 1>they go for information like what can I do? How

0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.680
<v Speaker 1>can I get my money back? And then they see ah,

0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.480
<v Speaker 1>like join this WhatsApp group, which is a group for

0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.000
<v Speaker 1>victims of this specific scam, you know, to get help.

0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.680
<v Speaker 1>We're going to put together a class action lawsuit or

0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, whatever they kind of framing they put around

0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:02.920
<v Speaker 1>it might be. And then immediately people get pulled back

0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.400
<v Speaker 1>into a secondary scam of oh, we can recover your money,

0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.720
<v Speaker 1>but it requires a fee, or we can only refund

0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:11.960
<v Speaker 1>to your credit card or your wise accounts, so we

0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.600
<v Speaker 1>need those details to refund to it, and things like that,

0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.760
<v Speaker 1>and all along this way, they're farming information from you

0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.600
<v Speaker 1>because your information has value, and at the same time,

0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.440
<v Speaker 1>they're overloading you with information to the point where, oh,

0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:34.240
<v Speaker 1>this system I'm interacting with is so complex that I

0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.719
<v Speaker 1>can't handle it by myself, and I must need these

0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:42.360
<v Speaker 1>people to help me. Sinister, sinister, indeed, pey, what are

0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:42.839
<v Speaker 1>some of the.

0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.120
<v Speaker 2>Red flags that many of us miss when it comes

0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:46.800
<v Speaker 2>to scamming.

0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.960
<v Speaker 1>I think, like we have you know, there's been a

0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.640
<v Speaker 1>lot of scam education over the years, right, and some

0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.280
<v Speaker 1>of the your common red flags we talk about is

0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.720
<v Speaker 1>that kind of sense of urgence. See, you know, if

0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.120
<v Speaker 1>you don't engage with us now, you might miss out

0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:10.120
<v Speaker 1>on your incredible returns, on a refund that you're apparently owed,

0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:15.040
<v Speaker 1>you're on things like that, or you're in other cases,

0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.760
<v Speaker 1>there's a sense of urgency around if you don't respond

0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.319
<v Speaker 1>to us, you might be in like legal trouble and

0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.880
<v Speaker 1>things like that. There's nearly always a sense of secrecy,

0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.320
<v Speaker 1>and it's kind of interesting in some of the widest

0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.880
<v Speaker 1>bread scams now where we see things like group chats

0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:36.000
<v Speaker 1>and that, because there's like this balance of scammers want

0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.160
<v Speaker 1>to recruit more people into the scam, and you know,

0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.760
<v Speaker 1>your friends and family maybe they want these unrealistic returns too.

0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:47.080
<v Speaker 1>But on the flip side, you can't tell too many people.

0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:52.520
<v Speaker 1>There's only limited spaces. You're like, don't broadcast this too

0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.880
<v Speaker 1>far because or or else will run out of spaces

0:09:55.880 --> 0:10:00.360
<v Speaker 1>and you won't get whatever you'uring goal is here, and

0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.320
<v Speaker 1>you're the reason they're so secretive like that, And why

0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.400
<v Speaker 1>there's always this sense of exclusivity is purely because if

0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.640
<v Speaker 1>you tell enough people about it, someone will tell you

0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.560
<v Speaker 1>it's a scam, and like the reality is as well.

0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:19.119
<v Speaker 1>Between the kind of first and last stages of most scams,

0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.679
<v Speaker 1>you're from that initial phishing, email, social media, ad impersonating

0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.280
<v Speaker 1>someone or something like that, you're you go into the

0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:34.240
<v Speaker 1>second stage, which feels really unrelated to the first part.

0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:39.000
<v Speaker 1>You're for example, well, when ad impersonating a company, you

0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.600
<v Speaker 1>might interact with that and then get routed to a

0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.319
<v Speaker 1>group chat which claims to be from somewhere else entirely,

0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.920
<v Speaker 1>and that should be a red flag right there. Another

0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.360
<v Speaker 1>really big red flag you're when you are dealing with

0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.400
<v Speaker 1>someone claiming to be an organization is when they're asking

0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.120
<v Speaker 1>you for information that that organization should already have about you,

0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.679
<v Speaker 1>or even requesting things like screenshots.

0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.280
<v Speaker 2>What would you say people can do if they have

0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.800
<v Speaker 2>been scammed or actually someone they know who and they're

0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.680
<v Speaker 2>close to, who's been scammed and is obviously pretty upset

0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.720
<v Speaker 2>with having lost whatever it might be.

0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.960
<v Speaker 1>So I think for individuals who feel like they've beformen

0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:28.720
<v Speaker 1>victim of a scam, your first priority is if you

0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.480
<v Speaker 1>have given over any account information and things like that,

0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:36.720
<v Speaker 1>is to resecure your accounts. You change your password enable

0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.280
<v Speaker 1>multi factor authentication and things like that, and then reach

0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:46.400
<v Speaker 1>out to the organization you're in question. So, for example,

0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.880
<v Speaker 1>if your chasy's count account was involved, we'd really like

0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:52.719
<v Speaker 1>to know about it so that we can help keep

0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:59.080
<v Speaker 1>you safe. In the case of your people whose fat

0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.440
<v Speaker 1>friends or famamily members might be scammed, it can get

0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:08.760
<v Speaker 1>really tricky really quickly. The reality of your modern scams

0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.800
<v Speaker 1>and the kind of dark psychology that exists in that

0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:18.240
<v Speaker 1>space is the longer someone is engaged with scammers, the

0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 1>more brainwashed in the sense they are, and the more

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of attached to the scam they become, and they

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.880
<v Speaker 1>developed this kind of idea of some cost where if

0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 1>they just engage with it more, maybe they'll get that

0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.800
<v Speaker 1>or whatever they've lost so far back and they don't

0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:41.640
<v Speaker 1>want to lose that hope. I think the best bit

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.359
<v Speaker 1>in some circumstances is if you know what accounts are involved,

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.079
<v Speaker 1>or if it's with your bank, if it's with another platform,

0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 1>you're reaching out to them and fearing, hey, I think

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 1>my family members being scammed, Like you're an organization, well

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 1>often be able to share information you're to you, but

0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.960
<v Speaker 1>they will be able to investigate and have a look

0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.199
<v Speaker 1>and help support your support that person. And of course

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:13.040
<v Speaker 1>if you are quite concerned about your someone's behavior, like

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.040
<v Speaker 1>the kind of them concealing what they're doing with money

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 1>and things, and you think they might be engaged with

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.959
<v Speaker 1>a scam, the police can also support with.

0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 2>That thanks peer. Three takeaways about scamming. One would be

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.520
<v Speaker 2>if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is,

0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 2>so stop while you're ahead. The second thing is if

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.600
<v Speaker 2>you're talking to an organization that should have your information already,

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.160
<v Speaker 2>that's a red flag. They won't be asking you for

0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.560
<v Speaker 2>it because, as I say, they should have had it already.

0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 2>And thirdly, if you're contacted by an organization that's been

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.199
<v Speaker 2>you think impersonated, check with the organizations and the verified

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>channels to see in fact if it is a scam

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:55.880
<v Speaker 2>or not.

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.040
<v Speaker 1>From seven St